Why Would God __________?

[Guest Rhino]

First off let me say that I really like the idea of discussing this stuff. I'm not really debating as much as I'm discussing. I have absolutely no goal or hope that I'm going to change anyone's mind. For me at least this is much more of a "listen to what you say and see if it makes sense to me" type of a thing. Then I toss back to you what doesn't make sense or my ideas as to why I've reached a different conclusion.

 

On that note, here goes:

 

I hate to state the obvious however, Where is you find god supposedly gives free will to begin with? There is no verse stating such.

 

Is Free Will the ability to choose or make choices? If so....

 

Joshua 24:15

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

 

Proverbs 8:10

Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,

 

Proverbs 3:31

Do not envy a violent man or choose any of his ways,

 

John 7:17

If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

I did a simple search for the word "choose" and in the NIV Bible there are 79 instances. Granted many of those are about God choosing something, but many of them are about people choosing something.

 

Similarly I did a search for the word "choice" which produced another 47 instances.

 

 

In stating that, There are many instances in the bible were one persons free will was over powered by god, then punishment followed because of that force.

 

One example: The Pharo of Egypt. He had zero choice when to 'let the people go' as god kept hardening his heart. The people were forced to suffer for it. Pharo had no free choice in the matter and people were killed, and tortured because of gods ultimate control over pharos heart.

 

I guess that proves that if you ever take several million Jews into slavery that God might take away your choices. Just kidding....

 

Scripture says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say how. You assume this to mean that God took away his choice. I don't know if that's how he did it or not. Are there other possibilities about how it could have happened? Sure.

 

Do I have control over you? No. Could I "harden your heart" to a certain idea, or action? Possibly.

 

God made demands upon Pharaoh which went against the monarch’s selfish interests, hence, in that sense God hardened his heart.

 

Later in the Bible Pharaoh resisted what God commanded and hardened his own heart.

 

The Egyptian magicians, attempting to duplicate Moses’ signs, added to Pharaoh’s confusion, which also lead to a hardening of his heart.

 

r

[Japedo]

 

 

 

 

Is Free Will the ability to choose or make choices? If so....

 

I will get back to this debate later tonight, and give a more detailed response.. I've got to fly for now.

 

However, Let me ask you this real fast. If a robber pulls a gun to my head and say's your money or your life. I hand over my money do I give it freely or is it out of duress? If there is a consequence of hell, it is the proverbial gun to the head, is it really free choice?

 

 

[Guest Rhino]

However, Let me ask you this real fast. If a robber pulls a gun to my head and say's your money or your life. I hand over my money do I give it freely or is it out of duress? If there is a consequence of hell, it is the proverbial gun to the head, is it really free choice?

 

 

Good point, but not relevant. The threat of hell doesn't dictate what I wear today, where I drive today, where I work today, or what I do today.

 

Reverend AtheliStar was saying that ALL actions were predestined, not just whether or not you "choose" to believe in God (which is where the threat of hell comes in).

 

For reference:

 

Why pray? Well, again you would have absolutely no choice over whether you prayed or what words you used. No matter what you did that's exactly what you were seen as doing billions of years ago. It'd all be an illusion. We'd all just be actors in a movie that was made long ago.

 

 

No matter what you did that's exactly what you were seen as doing billions of years ago. It'd all be an illusion. We'd all just be actors in a movie that was made long ago.

 

Alright, new question:

 

I don't follow the logic about because something was seen a billion years ago that it is also controlled.

 

Granted it if has been seen as happening, then I see the logic of it not changing, but not the logic of it being controlled.

 

To use the example above about the "actors in a movie made long ago": If I've seen a movie several times I know what's going to happen and I have 100% confidence that it isn't going to change the next time I watch it. However as the watcher I still had no say in how the movie was made or where the plot lead.

 

Let's say I invented camera's and lights and video recording tape and all the other components of the video cassette that I was watching (remember it's an old movie so it's not been converted to DVD yet ). Just because I created the elements that allowed the movie to be made still doesn't mean I had control over what got made (the plot).

 

Connect the dots for me

 

r

[Ouroboros]

Is Free Will the ability to choose or make choices? If so....

Now I'm going into nitpicking mode. (Sorry Rhino) But the question truly is: what is Free Will? And I think your definition is lacking something. I'll explain...

 

If it is like you said, the ability to make a choice or choose something, would that mean a computer has "free will"? The computer makes choices all the time (a logical gate is the component that make the choice on the physical level, and "if" statements are the way of making choices in programming code.) Granted it is not "free", but your definition was just "ability to choose", which the computer does have. Maybe you need to add something like "ability to choose freely" or something? What you think?

 

We have a whole house. But she was at school and I at home with the kids as we wrote this.

I was just kidding with ya'. I know you and AM are married.

[Guest Rhino]

Now I'm going into nitpicking mode. (Sorry Rhino) But the question truly is: what is Free Will? And I think your definition is lacking something. I'll explain...

 

If it is like you said, the ability to make a choice or choose something, would that mean a computer has "free will"? The computer makes choices all the time (a logical gate is the component that make the choice on the physical level, and "if" statements are the way of making choices in programming code.) Granted it is not "free", but your definition was just "ability to choose", which the computer does have. Maybe you need to add something like "ability to choose freely" or something? What you think?

 

I'd really hate to see this go there. It seems like a lot of conversations about stuff like this never get to the "meat" of the issue because someone is more interested in "winning" than "discussing" and basically bogs the whole thing down in nitpicky junk.

 

Yes I agree with what you said, I've not defiend Free Will very well and your example about the computer does fit the description I laid out. HOWEVER I believe you to be an intellegent individual and I bet you probably don't really believe that I think a computer has free will because I said free will was the ability to make a choice.

 

So the question becomes do we want to continue the discussion, or do we want to end it by everyone trying to trip me up on my terms and definitions.

 

I think the discussion is interesting. I think defining terms and nitpicking is boring.

 

r

[Ouroboros]

I felt it was important to point out, because the Bible verses you provided does not explicitly say that humans have free will, but imply it by using a word with a wide definition, the word "choose". That's why I pointed it out. The Bible doesn't say "Free Will" in those quotes, but I think there are other verses that do. So I'm not going to argue that the bible doesn't say humans have free will.

 

And this is the context where Pharaoh is mentioned:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

You can tell the author is saying God are making the choices, and we're not allowed to speak up against it and question why. It doesn't say that we have free will, but are under the control and dominance of God. It's all under his control and will, not ours, and the author does not go to any lengths to really sort out the conflict, but leave it just hanging with a "deal with it" attitude.

 

(The supposed) God had a chance to lay it all out and explain, to bad he didn't take it.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

To be more percise, I think you're wrong about "most of the population of earth" believing what you're saying about predestination and free will.

 

But to claim "this is what most of the people believe" I think is inaccurate according to my experience.

 

You misunderstand. You're slipping the wrong definition into "stuff." By "stuff" I meant Christianity i.e., mythology. Most of the Earth's population are Christians. I never said that Christians actually believed the way they were supposed to as per the Bible. No, I know that's not true! lol... Christians believe what their church teaches them, not by what's found in their holy book.

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Alright, new question:

 

I don't follow the logic about because something was seen a billion years ago that it is also controlled.

 

Granted it if has been seen as happening, then I see the logic of it not changing, but not the logic of it being controlled.

 

To use the example above about the "actors in a movie made long ago": If I've seen a movie several times I know what's going to happen and I have 100% confidence that it isn't going to change the next time I watch it. However as the watcher I still had no say in how the movie was made or where the plot lead.

 

Let's say I invented camera's and lights and video recording tape and all the other components of the video cassette that I was watching (remember it's an old movie so it's not been converted to DVD yet ). Just because I created the elements that allowed the movie to be made still doesn't mean I had control over what got made (the plot).

 

Connect the dots for me

 

Did you not read the verses? You seem to have skipped right over that part. If so, let me drop them again:

 

Isaiah 45

 

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Your god, Yahweh, according to these two verses controls everything. He made everything and controls everything presently, both good and evil. This is the way the mythology is laid out. I didn't make this up. The fact that you can find verses that show people choosing just illustrates contradictions, a favorite biblical subject of mine, actually. The above cited verse is directly speaking about what your god does, though, and so should carry a good amount of respect amongst believers.

 

Your example is a bad analogy from the start. Why? Well because your using humans in place of gods. Gods wouldn't be quite as clueless as your people. Remember omniscience? That's the difference. Your god is supposed to have known, since before creation, everything that would ever happen in infinite detail. He would know exactly who was going to heaven or hell and exactly why billions of years before they ever even existed. Before the first humans or the earth or the universe was ever there, according to your mythology!

[Guest Rhino]

Did you not read the verses? You seem to have skipped right over that part. If so, let me drop them again:

 

Isaiah 45

 

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Your god, Yahweh, according to these two verses controls everything.

 

Maybe I'm just thick headed or slow or whatever, but where in that verse does it day that God Controls everything.

 

"I form the light, and create darkness"

Okay He made the sun and made the earth turn around so we'd have night...I'll buy that.

 

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

I kind of like the NIV better:

 

"I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

 

Good things happen and bad things happen. This is wide open to it's meaning. What does bring prosperity and create disaster mean? How do you get "controls everything" from it? Again, I'm not scholar, but I just don't follow.

 

r

[Ouroboros]

Well, NIV does translate things more PC, and not necessarely according to the literal meaning. The word "evil" in that verse is the word Ra', and the Strongs reference define it as such:

 

adj

bad, evil

bad, disagreeable, malignant

bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

evil, displeasing

bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

bad (of value)

worse than, worst (comparison)

sad, unhappy

evil (hurtful)

bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

in general, of persons, of thoughts

deeds, actions n m

evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

evil, distress, adversity

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical) n f

evil, misery, distress, injury

evil, misery, distress

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

 

 

King James Word Usage - Total: 663

evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, miscellaneous 34

 

And think about this, isn't peace, prosperity, disaster pretty much all activity and all events in the world? What kind of events does it not include? (My head is quite slow today because of too little sleep, so I just don't see the answer right now. So help me out here Rhino.)

[Reverend AtheiStar]

Maybe I'm just thick headed or slow or whatever, but where in that verse does it day that God Controls everything.

 

"I form the light, and create darkness"

Okay He made the sun and made the earth turn around so we'd have night...I'll buy that.

 

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

 

I kind of like the NIV better:

 

"I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

 

Good things happen and bad things happen. This is wide open to it's meaning. What does bring prosperity and create disaster mean? How do you get "controls everything" from it? Again, I'm not scholar, but I just don't follow.

 

Ok, let me try and explain it, again. You have two spheres under which all activities fall, good and evil -- under biblical thinking, anyway. Yahweh controls both. He does "all these things." Therefore, there is nothing that he does not "create." The murder, the rape, the molestation, the natural disaster, the misfortune of any kind, that would be your god. In the opposite sphere: the birth, the win, the promotion, the money, the good fortune of any kind, also your god. All good and all bad, all controlled and orchestrated in every detail. This is divine predeterminism. No matter what you do it's exactly what you were supposed to do -- and it was all done by your god. Free will disappears. Absolute dominance is it's replacement. There are quite a few more verses that support this notion. It doesn't just rest on these.

[Guest Rhino]

And think about this, isn't peace, prosperity, disaster pretty much all activity and all events in the world? What kind of events does it not include? (My head is quite slow today because of too little sleep, so I just don't see the answer right now. So help me out here Rhino.)

 

Guys, let's be serious.

 

Am I really hearing someone say that:

 

"I make peace, and create evil"

 

Means the same thing as:

 

"I the Lord God make you say, do, and think everything that you say, do and think."

 

For a group of people who question everything and don't trust scripture, I just think that is a pretty big leap.

 

Here is a thought that just occurred to me: What is "evil"? How do you define it? By what standard to you base it?

 

Based on that question here is another thought I just had. If God is good, moral, and just then anything that was against God would be evil. Thus by God being in existence and allowing us to choose whether or not to go against Him, he "allows/creates" evil.

 

Okay, that idea was just "off the cuff" so I haven't really thought it through. In rereading the logic still makes sense to me, but I see that it isn't expressed very clearly. Let me know if I need to clarify...

 

r

 

Ok, let me try and explain it, again. You have two spheres under which all activities fall, good and evil -- under biblical thinking, anyway. Yahweh controls both. He does "all these things." Therefore, there is nothing that he does not "create."

 

English never was my strong subject (Math and Science were more to my liking), but in the sentence:

 

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

 

To me "all these things" refers to all the things just listed (form light, create darkness, bring prosperity, create disaster). It doesn't seem to me to mean that He does ALL THINGS in each of these categories of things.

 

I'm fine to agree to disagree. Just wanted to be clear about why I'm seeing it differently than you're seeing it.

 

r

[Ouroboros]

Guys, let's be serious.

I must say I "love" your derogatory attitude which you've demonstrated several times already.

 

Am I really hearing someone say that:

 

"I make peace, and create evil"

 

Means the same thing as:

 

"I the Lord God make you say, do, and think everything that you say, do and think."

I didn't say that. But your supposed God makes peace, prosperity, good and evil happens. He's the source of it. Do you claim that good and evil happens without human interaction, and human actions are neither? So when you, as a Christian, say that "a human acted in an evil way", and "God creates evil", that the human is God? Who else? Human creates evil, or God?

 

For a group of people who question everything and don't trust scripture, I just think that is a pretty big leap.

Where's the leap? What so strange and hard to understand with "...and create evil"? You're the one trying to sidetrack by claiming that God does not create evil, while you then say this:

 

Here is a thought that just occurred to me: What is "evil"? How do you define it? By what standard to you base it?

 

Based on that question here is another thought I just had. If God is good, moral, and just then anything that was against God would be evil. Thus by God being in existence and allowing us to choose whether or not to go against Him, he "allows/creates" evil.

It doesn't say "allows", it says "creates", so who's not serious about this? Where does it say God is good only, and only creates good, and evil is a result of his non-actions?

 

-edit-

 

I get the feeling you're not here to ask question what we think, or get any explanations, you're here because you want to tell us what to think, and you only want us to agree with you. If that's the case, there's nothing more to say, you got your opinion and "all figured out", so be it and let it all go then. Because you won't convert anyone here.

 

Btw, did you read this article: http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/04...or-of-evil.html?

[Guest Rhino]

I must say I "love" your derogatory attitude which you've demonstrated several times already.

 

You know, forums, email neither is very good at expressing tone, or inflection. I thought I was coming off conversational not derogatory. I was actually imagining us sitting around a table having a conversation and just talking the same way I would there.

 

I didn't mean to be derogatory. My apologies.

 

 

Where's the leap? What so strange and hard to understand with "...and create evil"? You're the one trying to sidetrack by claiming that God does not create evil

 

It isn't hard to understand "...and create evil". The leap is getting from "...and create evil" to "controls my thoughts and actions" which is what Reverend AtheiStar was saying (big paraphrase for brevity).

 

As for my "sidetrack" consider this logic:

 

(this is a hypothetical so just go along with the if for now)

If it were true that God was good, just, and moral then it makes sense to say that doing something against God would be bad, unjust, and immoral (or another word evil...I know that's a stretch, bear with me a little longer). Now God decides to give us free will (the ability to make choices for our selves). One of those choices is whether or not we're going to obey God or disobey God. The instant he gave us free will, he created evil. If "evil" means going against God, then there would be no evil if we couldn't go against God. He doesn't make us DO evil, but he doesn't stop us from choosing it. By allowing us to choose it evil is now a possibility where before it wasn't, thus it has been created (is in existence).

 

Again, I'm not necessarily saying this is what I believe (I mean you guys aren't arguing for what you believe). But I am offering it as something to think about and as something that makes some logical sense. Thus, I don't think it can be discounted as a possible meaning of the scripture, and thus the conclusions presented by Reverend AtheiStar about God controlling EVERYTHING seem to be questionable.

 

What do you think?

 

r

 

 

-edit-

 

I get the feeling you're not here to ask question what we think, or get any explanations, you're here because you want to tell us what to think, and you only want us to agree with you. If that's the case, there's nothing more to say, you got your opinion and "all figured out", so be it and let it all go then. Because you won't convert anyone here.

 

Btw, did you read this article: http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2006/04...or-of-evil.html?

 

Actually I came here because I had some questions about Christianity and I think it is wise to not just swallow everything that is feed to me. So instead of investing in hours and hours and hours of research and reading I figured I'd start with seeing what some ex-Christians believed.

 

Usually discussion is a faster way to get to the bottom of something than endless reading. (at least for me)

 

I have no intentions of converting anyone. I'm not trying to come in here as someone who has already made up my mind. I'm here as someone who is questioning some. I figured that the other people here were similar.

 

I haven't read that article, but will read it right after posting this.

 

later,

 

r

[AtheistMommy]

name='Rhino' date='Apr 21 2006, 03:12 PM' post='164676'

 

As for my "sidetrack" consider this logic:

 

(this is a hypothetical so just go along with the if for now)

If it were true that God was good, just, and moral then it makes sense to say that doing something against God would be bad, unjust, and immoral (or another word evil...I know that's a stretch, bear with me a little longer). Now God decides to give us free will (the ability to make choices for our selves). One of those choices is whether or not we're going to obey God or disobey God. The instant he gave us free will, he created evil. If "evil" means going against God, then there would be no evil if we couldn't go against God. He doesn't make us DO evil, but he doesn't stop us from choosing it. By allowing us to choose it evil is now a possibility where before it wasn't, thus it has been created (is in existence).

 

Again, I'm not necessarily saying this is what I believe (I mean you guys aren't arguing for what you believe). But I am offering it as something to think about and as something that makes some logical sense. Thus, I don't think it can be discounted as a possible meaning of the scripture, and thus the conclusions presented by Reverend AtheiStar about God controlling EVERYTHING seem to be questionable.

 

What do you think?

 

r

 

Are we also taking into consideration that god would have known he was going to do this? If he did know he was going to do this he would have known the out come of this and had the power to stop it.

 

You know, it all comes down to one thing. These stories of an all powerful, all knowing god is nothing more than a ploy to control and instill fear into people and children. It's once you start to question it that you see all the flaws in this logic.

 

If god is everywhere, knows everything, has created everything, and is everything, than how can there be "free will?" If sometime down the line he has this idea, "Oh, I should give my creation (human beings only, although if he created everything, than everything should have free will, not just humans)"free will" even though I know what's going to happen because I've already planned it."

How does this change anything?

 

However, without god coming down from where ever he is to be (if he really existed) and telling everyone what he expects, and what he is about, no one knows for sure. These bibles are nothing more than books written by people like you and me. These rules are rules made by people, like you and me. These stories are just that, stories. God (if he really existed) has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life. It's all belief, it's all faith, it's all stories.

[Guest Rhino]

Are we also taking into consideration that god would have known he was going to do this? If he did know he was going to do this he would have known the out come of this and had the power to stop it.

 

Why would he stop it? See my post earlier about death, bad things, accidents. If the reason for Him creating us in the first place is to have an eternal relationship with us, and life here is very short compared to eternity. Then even if he knew that a lot of people were going to not choose Him (and thus cause evil), why would he stop that?

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't stop it, I'm just wondering why you think he should.

 

You know, it all comes down to one thing. These stories of an all powerful, all knowing god is nothing more than a ploy to control and instill fear into people and children. It's once you start to question it that you see all the flaws in this logic.

 

Thats a good thought, but there in lies my problem. I am questioning it and the logic still has a hold on me.

 

You claim they are nothing more than a ploy, but I don't see the evidence of that. Granted I see the evidence that is how some people have used it, but not the evidence that it in and of itself is such.

 

 

If god is everywhere, knows everything, has created everything, and is everything, than how can there be "free will?"

 

Well, we differ a little there. I think God is everywhere, knows everything, and has created everything. But I don't think he IS everything.

 

 

These bibles are nothing more than books written by people like you and me. These rules are rules made by people, like you and me. These stories are just that, stories. God (if he really existed) has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life. It's all belief, it's all faith, it's all stories.

 

That's right. And something I was going to bring up once some of this other stuff was settled. I think the Bible is a collection of eye-witness accounts. It is a collection of accounts of "this is what I saw", "this is what happened", "this is what God told me".

 

I don't think you can claim that God has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life since millions of people claim the exact opposite. Are they all liars, or delusional, or crazy?

 

r

[Ouroboros]

Apologies accepted.

 

Let's look at your argument "God creates good, and evil is a result of absence of good."

 

Turn it around, what will you get? God creates evil, and good is just a result of absence of evil.

 

Is that a false statement, or could it be just as true as your claim?

 

If it's false, what do you base that conclusion on?

 

 

To go back to one of your questions, "what is evil?" That is exactly the question you have to ask yourself. When God supposedly killed thousands of people in the Bible because of one persons sins, we are expected to take it as a good action on his part. While terrorist killing thousands of people in a building should be considered evil. Where do you draw the line for what is good or evil? Isn't the whole concept of good and evil very subjective? Isn't good and evil more like different shades of gray? Can darker gray be considered absence of the brighter gray? These are question you have to resolve before we even can say good and evil exists.

 

Do understand that our argument isn't if free will exists or not, or if evil exists or not, but that the Bible presents conflicting statements where on one side God controls everything and good and evil, and on the other everything is a personal choice. And this is just one out of many conflicting statements and ideas in the Bible, but unfortunately the Bible doesn't resolve the conflicts, it only presents them. So when a Christian say "the Bible have all answers", it's just not true. Because the Bible raises more questions than answering them.

 

 

 

These bibles are nothing more than books written by people like you and me. These rules are rules made by people, like you and me. These stories are just that, stories. God (if he really existed) has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life. It's all belief, it's all faith, it's all stories.

 

That's right. And something I was going to bring up once some of this other stuff was settled. I think the Bible is a collection of eye-witness accounts. It is a collection of accounts of "this is what I saw", "this is what happened", "this is what God told me".

 

I don't think you can claim that God has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life since millions of people claim the exact opposite. Are they all liars, or delusional, or crazy?

So you're not really a Christian that believe the Bible to be the infallible truth or to be take literally? Or do I misunderstand you here?

[AtheistMommy]

 

Why would he stop it? See my post earlier about death, bad things, accidents. If the reason for Him creating us in the first place is to have an eternal relationship with us, and life here is very short compared to eternity. Then even if he knew that a lot of people were going to not choose Him (and thus cause evil), why would he stop that?

 

I'm not saying he shouldn't stop it, I'm just wondering why you think he should.

 

Because it is immoral to stand by and watch someone die if you are more than able to help or save them.

 

Thats a good thought, but there in lies my problem. I am questioning it and the logic still has a hold on me.

 

You claim they are nothing more than a ploy, but I don't see the evidence of that. Granted I see the evidence that is how some people have used it, but not the evidence that it in and of itself is such.

 

The mere fact that Christianity was not the first belief with the first god. The stories have been proven to have been taken from other beliefs (religions). This isn't something that just happened, it's something that has been perfected.

 

Well, we differ a little there. I think God is everywhere, knows everything, and has created everything. But I don't think he IS everything.

 

This isn't my belief, this is what I was told millions of times by several (including priests) believers.

 

That's right. And something I was going to bring up once some of this other stuff was settled. I think the Bible is a collection of eye-witness accounts. It is a collection of accounts of "this is what I saw", "this is what happened", "this is what God told me".

 

I don't think you can claim that God has yet to make himself a real part of anyone's life since millions of people claim the exact opposite. Are they all liars, or delusional, or crazy?

 

r

 

Accounts that have been told in earlier stories of different bibles? Accounts that happened after the fact? The dates don't add up.

It has been proven that most cults use drugs to aid the "religious" experience, it has also been proven that the most successful religious leaders have frontal lobe damage of some kind, so yes, they are delusional and crazy. Personally, I'd call them liars.

 

 

I just have to say Hans, everytime I see that baby I have to laugh. He/she is so cute!

 

[Ouroboros]

I just have to say Hans, everytime I see that baby I have to laugh. He/she is so cute!

Like me...

 

 

 

For a while I was changing my avatars almost everyday, with a new little funny line under it. But I somehow got stuck with this one, since it's cute, but also kind of intimidating. "Watch out, here I come!" kind of thing.

[Guest Rhino]

Because it is immoral to stand by and watch someone die if you are more than able to help or save them.

 

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

The mere fact that Christianity was not the first belief with the first god. The stories have been proven to have been taken from other beliefs (religions). This isn't something that just happened, it's something that has been perfected.

 

They've not been proven to me. And if you believe the Bible Christianity was the first belief with the first God.

 

Accounts that have been told in earlier stories of different bibles? Accounts that happened after the fact? The dates don't add up.

 

Examples???

 

[quote[

It has been proven that most cults use drugs to aid the "religious" experience, it has also been proven that the most successful religious leaders have frontal lobe damage of some kind, so yes, they are delusional and crazy. Personally, I'd call them liars.

 

What does cults using drugs have to do with anything we've talked about? Are you claiming that Christians all across america are using drugs to enhance their religious experience? Are you claiming that a large percentage of the pastors, preachers, priests across America have some sort of frontal lobe brain damage?

 

This is getting weird.

 

r

 

Because it is immoral to stand by and watch someone die if you are more than able to help or save them.

 

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

The mere fact that Christianity was not the first belief with the first god. The stories have been proven to have been taken from other beliefs (religions). This isn't something that just happened, it's something that has been perfected.

 

They've not been proven to me. And if you believe the Bible Christianity was the first belief with the first God.

 

Accounts that have been told in earlier stories of different bibles? Accounts that happened after the fact? The dates don't add up.

 

Examples???

 

[quote[

It has been proven that most cults use drugs to aid the "religious" experience, it has also been proven that the most successful religious leaders have frontal lobe damage of some kind, so yes, they are delusional and crazy. Personally, I'd call them liars.

 

What does cults using drugs have to do with anything we've talked about? Are you claiming that Christians all across america are using drugs to enhance their religious experience? Are you claiming that a large percentage of the pastors, preachers, priests across America have some sort of frontal lobe brain damage?

 

This is getting weird.

 

r

 

 

AAARRRRGGGG

 

Okay, I messed up the quote thing, and then tried to edit it and then really just messed it up twice as bad. How do you edit a message once you've posted it?

 

[Ouroboros]

The Edit function doesn't get activated until you've done 50 posts (I think). And the quote thingy, there's a limit to 10 quotes per post, so if you need to do more "you said/I said" than 10, use color coding instead.

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Rhino, Rhino, Rhino,

 

Why? If you throw out the Bible, then why is anything "immoral"? If you don't use the Bible as the moral standard, then what standard to you use?

 

First, go read Bertram Russell then read me.

 

Christianity does not own morality since it existed before Christianity and before the general concepts of the Christian God existed. Old Testament morality is very differnet from New Testament morality and to think otherwise is quite contradictory. One cannot say that morality came with the New Testament or that the period of time before the gospels is amoral.

 

In the same lines of thinking, one cannot say that all societies that existed before being evangelized by Christians were amoral. One cannot also say that after Christianity came to emergence that Christians became morally good. Since, without the Bible, you cannot say that people would be more or less morally good than they are today if they had no knowledge of the Christian concepts of morality, nor would they be aware of what God defines as morally good one cannot say that morally good behavior comes from God.

 

My moral compass has absolute good and evil and relative good and evil that depends on the situation. Child molestation is absolutely evil. The killing of a child is relative to the situation. Killing six-million Jews because of their religion is absolutely evil.

 

There is no single statement that can fully describe my moral compass. I fail to see why morality has to be completely absolute or completely relative. Anything that is either only absolute or relative is fundamentalism, which I abhor. There are fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Atheists and both in my book are nuts. My moral compass is more like my own guide to morality and not like an actual compass, it would be more like a Moral Geiger Counter with a positive and negative scale than an actual compass if you are needing a picture of it, where almost all situations have degrees of where I stand.

Would you say that since you would seem to follow a moral set within Christianity that you deem appropriate. Or even better, that you follow the code of conduct and beliefs that you agree with and that was set down in the Christian Bible but with the exclusion of those in which you disagree with. Unless one knows all "sets" of moral codes (and I don't agree with having a written "set" in stone) within and without of Christianity; no one can say which is the “correct” one for all, but only the individual determining its value for themselves. I may be nitpicking but it holds true with my beliefs that individuals set their own morals regardless of absolute “sets” that may be out there.

 

Any act of murdering/killing people because of religious belief alone, in my view, is evil. That is not to say that people who comit acts of violence in the name of their religion and are killed for it is amoral. Morality has many grey areas and I, just like everyone else, have to weigh the evidence available to us and make a decision. A child that steals medicine for his dying mother is, by law and Christian values, a thief and the action of stealing is evil even by Christian standings, “Thou shalt not steal,” yet the act of saving one’s mother regardless of the penalty to yourself is not. So even within a single action there can be good and evil moral conflicts, hence, not absolute. If there is a god, especially a Christian God, then I would hate to think that his moral code is in absolutes and he would be considered by myself to be a tyrant fundamentalist. Could his outlook on good and evil be worse than mine? Could he be as ignorant in the philosophical paradox’s of morality as fundamentalists who cannot deal with anything but absolutes? I don’t think so.

 

If you had a daughter, and you may have one, and if she was corrupted by the beliefs of others and ended up hating you, despising you, or even denying that you were her father and vowed never to see you again, but while on her death bed or yours, or even in an afterlife she asked for your forgiveness because she was confused by all that conflicting beliefs presented to her, would you forgive her? I would. Does that make me more forgiving than your God? Isn’t the deity you are supposed to worship supposed to be more than yourself? Or does he deal in absolutes only and make himself a tyrant? Would you tell your own daughter it is too late for forgiveness and punish her for all eternity, mentally or physically, when she asked for forgiveness regardless of the circumstances of when, where, why, or how?

 

For me, fundamentalism is taking absolutism to it's extreme. The dictionary definiton - "A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism."

 

 

They've not been proven to me. And if you believe the Bible Christianity was the first belief with the first God.

 

If it hasn't been proven to you yet then you walk through life with Christian blinders on.

 

To use a single tenant of moral code of Christianity "Do unto others..." Jesus was not the first to say that, Hilel the Elder said it before him and 350 years before Jesus was born, Confucious said it as well.

[Ouroboros]

...Child molestation is absolutely evil. ...

That's what we, as society, consider evil today, but I don't remember if the Bible condemns it or state it as evil or immoral.

 

Challenge for Rhino: find the Bible verse(s) that state that Child Molestation and Abortion is immoral. (Because I don't know if there's any...)

[Guest Rhino]

Christianity does not own morality since it existed before Christianity and before the general concepts of the Christian God existed.

 

I'm not saying that Christianity owns morality. I'm saying that if there is no one standard, then anything can be moral.

 

 

AtheistMommy said something was immoral, I just find it interesting to think about where a person's sense of morality comes from if they don't hold the Bible to be the moral authority.

 

It then must come from a combination of that person's personality, experiences, education, and other factors.

 

It basically sounds like I'm hearing that "What's right for you may not be right for me", and if that is your position then it doesn't make sense to call something immoral because it may not be immoral to the other person. If you are going to call something immoral then I think you need to have a set of moral standards (in my opinion found in the Bible).

 

r

[JGJ@ReligionisBullshit]

Christianity does not own morality since it existed before Christianity and before the general concepts of the Christian God existed.

 

I'm not saying that Christianity owns morality. I'm saying that if there is no one standard, then anything can be moral.

 

 

AtheistMommy said something was immoral, I just find it interesting to think about where a person's sense of morality comes from if they don't hold the Bible to be the moral authority.

 

It then must come from a combination of that person's personality, experiences, education, and other factors.

 

It basically sounds like I'm hearing that "What's right for you may not be right for me", and if that is your position then it doesn't make sense to call something immoral because it may not be immoral to the other person. If you are going to call something immoral then I think you need to have a set of moral standards (in my opinion found in the Bible).

 

r

 

 

All morals found in the Bible? Be carefull where you step next.