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Some examples of astronomically unlikely odds for Fish153 to consider.


walterpthefirst
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Fish153 contends that the odds of the founding of Israel and the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls happening within a year of each other is so astronomically unlikely that this must indicate the hand of God.

 

What he doesn't seem to realize is that there are many examples of these supremely unlikely happenstances, some of them being MUCH more unlikely than the lining up of the two events he refers to.

 

 

 

Example 1.  Hoag's Object.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoag's_Object

 

Ring galaxies are extremely rare things and we only know of a few of them, among the trillions of galaxies in the observable universe. 

 

What are the odds that Hoag's object would be displayed perfectly face-on to us, when it could be aligned at any angle?

What are the odds that it's at a distance that our telescopes can see it, rather than being a thousand times further away, where they couldn't?

What are the odds that we are seeing it at exactly the right time in it's evolution, rather than before the ring formed?

What are the odds that another extremely rare ring galaxy can be seen inside Hoag's object?  (Click on the image to see it.)

What are the odds that this second ring galaxy is also oriented face-on to us, when it could be aligned at any angle?

 

This example has five sets of exceedingly unlikely happenstances lining up in our favour, making it a much more unlikely thing than Fish's example.

 

 

 

Example 2.  The face of the God Shiva on Mount Kailash.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kailash

 

Mount Kailash in Tibet is the sacred mountain around which Hindu and Buddhist pilgrims walk seven times to obtain a blessing.  Due to it's spiritual significance the mountain has never been climbed.  This means that until the invention of the air travel, no human being has ever been able to see what lay inside the crevasse that splits the summit of the mountain.

 

https://mahaperiyavaa.blog/2014/08/21/lord-shivas-face-in-mount-kailash-captured-by-google-earth/   (Click to enlarge and see the face.)

 

The face of Shiva is clearly seen in the once-hidden crevasse.  Yet, Mount Kailash has been venerated as the home of Shiva upon Earth for thousands of years.  So, what are the odds that out of the many thousands of mountains in the Himalayas, the followers of Shiva knew that this one was Shiva's home?  They couldn't see it and the face wasn't discovered until the 20th century.

 

The odds of Shiva worshippers choosing exactly the right mountain to walk around are so fantastically high that this must be the hand of Shiva guiding them to his home.

 

Or, this could just be a case of another fantastic coincidence, in a long line of fantastic coincidences that we know about.

 

They are nothing special and they don't indicate anything significant or meaningful.

 

They just happen.

 

 

Example 3.   The death of Paolo Gislimberti.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Paolo_Gislimberti

 

I'm a fan of Formula 1 motor racing and twenty years on, this freak accident still boggles my mind.

 

What this article doesn't say is the following.  

 

1.  The Monza racing circuit, where this accident happened, has small gaps in the safety barrier to allow personnel like Gislimberti to run onto the track when needed.

2.  The width of these gaps was almost exactly the same size as the runaway wheel that came off Heinz - Harald Frentzen's racing car.

3.  Despite the fact that he moved back and forth BEHIND the safety barrier, Gislimberti's movements put him exactly in the line of fire at exactly the right moment that the wheel was flying through the exactly-sized gap in the barrier.

4.  If the crash had happened in any other part of the circuit, he wouldn't have died.

5.  If the cars involved hadn't been travelling at exactly the right speed and at exactly the right angles when they collided, the wheel wouldn't have come off, hurtling in exactly the right direction to pass through the exactly - sized gap in the barrier to exactly where Gislimberti was standing at that exact moment.  Even slight changes in direction, velocity and timing would have meant that he might have lived.  But all of these factors lined up in such a fantastically unbelievable way to kill him.

 

The odds of this happening are far, far more unlikely than two historical events lining up in a certain way.

 

Events like these...  just happen.    Often.

 

There is no higher meaning or significance to them.

 

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

  

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Fun aside.  A few years ago we were visiting Nepal during the Hindu pilgrimage season to Mt. Kailash (weather/climate only permits a short window to visit the mountain during the year) and I struck up a conversation with some of the pilgrims.  A cardiologist from Tampa, his son - a psychiatrist in Chicago, another son - a dermatologist also in Chicago, and their families amongst the pilgrims.  All three MD's and all three traveling to Mr. Kailash to worship Lord Shiva.  They considered it such a blessing to visit Shiva's home and believed the god itself physically dwelled within the mountain.

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Thanks for the three examples Walter. Those "odds" are staggering and reinforce the thought that there must be a God. Thanks so much for sharing.

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31 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Thanks for the three examples Walter. Those "odds" are staggering and reinforce the thought that there must be a God. Thanks so much for sharing.

And, quite obviously from the examples, that god is Shiva.  Quan Am be praised!

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Redneck---

 

You got me! I have to admit that I did not read through the "examples" Walter gave carefully. I realize that there are many coincidences and things that happen for us to say "what are the odds"?  We can all point to one, or even many.

 

My original post was not presenting FACTS THAT PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. I pointed this out to Walter several times. It was for "consideration".  I'm sure Buddhists probably have things that happened that defy logic also.

 

But I would say that there are MANY things that lead to the conclusion Shiva is not the way to salvation. Especially since Shiva is the God of destruction from what I remember (if I have that wrong forgive me). And yet there are many things that lead to the conclusion Jesus IS the way to salvation.

 

Jesus: all other Religious Teachers are "thieves and robbers".

Other Religious Leaders: Jesus was a great and very wise man (they do not believe he was God, but they acknowledge he was a great teacher).

 

Now, why do almost all Religious leaders acknowledge Jesus was a great teacher and very wise man when Jesus calls ALL OF THEM "thieves and robbers"?? Jesus said "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME."

 

You see, despite the Shiva example, I also know that those Hindus acknowledge Jesus as a very wise teacher, even though this very wise teacher refers to their Leaders as thieves and robbers. 

Conclusion: Jesus is Lord.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

Thanks for the three examples Walter. Those "odds" are staggering and reinforce the thought that there must be a God. Thanks so much for sharing.

 

Or,

given an infinite universe, there are infinite possibilities.

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11 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Conclusion: Jesus is Lord.

This conclusion cannot be trusted because it was built upon the original premise that the gospel gives an accurate account of jesus, which has not been sufficiently verified.  If you have evidence, outside of what the bible says or what's inside the minds of believers, you're welcome to share it.

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1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck---

 

You got me! I have to admit that I did not read through the "examples" Walter gave carefully. I realize that there are many coincidences and things that happen for us to say "what are the odds"?  We can all point to one, or even many.

 

My original post was not presenting FACTS THAT PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. I pointed this out to Walter several times. It was for "consideration".  I'm sure Buddhists probably have things that happened that defy logic also.

 

But I would say that there are MANY things that lead to the conclusion Shiva is not the way to salvation. Especially since Shiva is the God of destruction from what I remember (if I have that wrong forgive me). And yet there are many things that lead to the conclusion Jesus IS the way to salvation.

 

Jesus: all other Religious Teachers are "thieves and robbers".

Other Religious Leaders: Jesus was a great and very wise man (they do not believe he was God, but they acknowledge he was a great teacher).

 

Now, why do almost all Religious leaders acknowledge Jesus was a great teacher and very wise man when Jesus calls ALL OF THEM "thieves and robbers"?? Jesus said "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME."

 

You see, despite the Shiva example, I also know that those Hindus acknowledge Jesus as a very wise teacher, even though this very wise teacher refers to their Leaders as thieves and robbers. 

Conclusion: Jesus is Lord.

 

 

 

You are missing the point of this thread Fish, because you are not considering the very thing that you pointed out in your original post.

 

The odds.

 

In this thread I have clearly demonstrated that the odds of your given example are nothing special.

 

 

 

Conclusion :  Your given example is not persuasive.

 

 

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Walter--

 

No. You haven't done that at all. You have just shown there are occurrences that can be called just as "soecial" as the one I shared. They are rare. That is why people say "what are the odds??"  They say it because it is extremely unusual.

 

I STILL say that the two events occurring within one year of one another after 2000 years is pause for thought. It is extremely unusual for a simultaneous event like that to happen. I never said this PROVES WITHOUT A DOUBT there is a God. I said it causes one to stop and say "hmmm?"

 

What you have shared in no way persuades me otherwise.

 

Jesus: "All who came before me are thieves and robbers"   "Many shall come in my name..do not follow them"

 

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims: "Jesus is a very wise man".

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1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--

 

No. You haven't done that at all. You have just shown there are occurrences that can be called just as "soecial" as the one I shared. They are rare. That is why people say "what are the odds??"  They say it because it is extremely unusual.

 

I STILL say that the two events occurring within one year of one another after 2000 years is pause for thought. It is extremely unusual for a simultaneous event like that to happen. I never said this PROVES WITHOUT A DOUBT there is a God. I said it causes one to stop and say "hmmm?"

 

What you have shared in no way persuades me otherwise.

 

Jesus: "All who came before me are thieves and robbers"   "Many shall come in my name..do not follow them"

 

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims: "Jesus is a very wise man".

 

No.  You claimed that the odds of those two events occurring a year apart were so unlikely that this showed the hand of god.

 

I have demonstrated that the odds of your given example are not so special after all.

 

Therefore, your claim that these two events are so highly unlikely is shown to be false.

 

Their likelihood is much less than many other occurrences that do not indicate the hand of god.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

And, quite obviously from the examples, that god is Shiva.  Quan Am be praised!

 

When I read Walter's OP The FSM's Noodley Spirit moved through my heart. 

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6 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

When I read Walter's OP The FSM's Noodley Spirit moved through my heart. 

What are the odds of that happening?!?

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3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

 

Now, why do almost all Religious leaders acknowledge Jesus was a great teacher and very wise man when Jesus calls ALL OF THEM "thieves and robbers"??

 

 

Professional courtesy.

 

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

Jesus said "I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father BUT BY ME."

 

 

 

 

Narcissism.

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2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--

 

No. You haven't done that at all. You have just shown there are occurrences that can be called just as "soecial" as the one I shared. They are rare. That is why people say "what are the odds??"  They say it because it is extremely unusual.

 

I STILL say that the two events occurring within one year of one another after 2000 years is pause for thought. It is extremely unusual for a simultaneous event like that to happen. I never said this PROVES WITHOUT A DOUBT there is a God. I said it causes one to stop and say "hmmm?"

 

What you have shared in no way persuades me otherwise.

 

Jesus: "All who came before me are thieves and robbers"   "Many shall come in my name..do not follow them"

 

Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims: "Jesus is a very wise man".

 

 

Lord Jesus, should Fish change the title of his thread from "Israel proves the existence of God" to "It'll make you stop and go hmmmm." He never really said it proves your existence 'without a doubt.'

 

 

 

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Walter--

 

No, you have not PROVEN the two simultaneous events are not special. You have only proven that upon searching, you can find some other unusual, rare, occurences.

 

This in no way removes the extreme rarity of such an event happening. You can jump through hoops Walter trying to say there is nothing special about this. This is solely YOUR OPINION. Many would disagree with you. 

 

You haven't clearly stated yet, but it appears you do not believe in God. So of course your "bias" is to disprove anything that might point us to God's intervention. Of course my "bias" is the opposite-- and I completely admit that.

 

I do believe that the two events occuring within one year of each other, 2000 years later, is worthy of reflection and deep consideration. I am not pulling something out of my hat. It is a  truly rare event. Of course, if one's bias is to disprove ANYTHING pointed to as possible evidence for the hand of God, persuading them to even considerate it is futile.

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Would you agree that you are unique?

 

Would you agree that there is no one exactly like you?

 

Would you agree that you are the result of one of your father's sperm inserting itself into one of your mother's eggs?

 

Would you agree that if a different sperm inserted itself you wouldn't be you, but someone a little different?

 

About 300 million sperm are released in an ejaculation. The odds of you being exactly you are one in 300,000,000.  And that doesn’t include other ejaculations or other possible eggs.

 

Would you agree that your father is the result of one of his father's sperm inserting itself into one of your mother's eggs?

 

Would you agree that your paternal grandfather is the result of one of his father's sperm inserting itself into one of your paternal grandmother's eggs?  And that doesn’t include your maternal grandparents.

 

Just in the last three generations, three specific sperms resulted in you. If any other sperm had made it to the eggs, you wouldn't be you.

 

The odds of that occurring is 1 in 2.725.

 

Care to calculate the probability of you being you going back to your oldest ancestor around the time of Noah?

 

Of course, I can go on.  What is the probability that the specific atoms in your body at the present moment are there instead of combinations of different atoms from elsewhere in the known universe?  That probability is even more remote...much more.

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midnite--

I have seriously considered changing the name of the thread. I didn't realize anal retentive people(not including you in that group by the way) would read the Title and really believe I was saying that I can PROVE God exists. Of course I can't do that. The Title was entered haphazardly so that I could begin my post.

 

I will be FAR MORE CAREFUL WITH MY WORDING in the future. Instead of "odds" I need to use "apparent consistencies". Instead of making a "point" I must say making an "assertion". Instead of the main theme of the post being what is important, I will make certain that each "supporting" idea has been checked thoroughly to assure anal retentive minds don't turn the "example" into the MAIN THEME, missing the whole point (assertion) I was making (establishing). Thank you (Gracias).

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sdelsoray--

 

Thanks for the post. Isn't God incredible? The odds (apparent consistencies) of me being me are astronomical. No wonder Jesus said "The very hairs on your head are ALL numbered". DNA actually proves this to be the case. Thanks for the reminder.

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I've always wondered why Atheists and deconverts couldn't come up with something better than the Spaghetti Monster. And it's been used ad nauseum for years now. Surely you can invent a more absurd and stupid God. "Nuke the gay whales for Christ" was a much more inventive use of words (used on bumper stickers in the past). The Spaghetti Monster is just plain stupid in my opinion.

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10 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

DNA actually proves this to be the case.

No.  It actually doesn't.  

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This is what DNA actually codes for, concerning the hair on a person's head.  Please note that " number of hairs" is not mentioned.

 

https://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-geneticist/hair-texture-can-change

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Here is a fun activity you can do that will help you understand chromosomes and the difference between phenotype and genotype.  Unfortunately, it will not help you calculate the number of hairs you have.

 

 

https://www.mrsec.psu.edu/content/dna-determines-your-appearance

 

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This will help you get started understanding certain genetic defects that affect the texture of a person's hair.  Sadly, not the number.

 

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/traits/hairtexture/

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