Is belief in spiritual or supernatural entities a sign of mental weakness or illness?

[Edgarcito]

19 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Edgar,

I can respond..

I doubt my discourse would interest you however.

 

I am not so erudite as others here.

 

And of late, I have only the one issue to discuss with believers, that which you've seen in my discussion with others:

What precisely, is a spirit (as a noun), and what objective evidence is there that any spirit of any kind actually exists?

 

 

 

 

 

Well, we might guess that spirit is something that our individual collectives can pick up, that we just don't understand the mechanism or source.  Maybe the feeling from walking into a cathedral...or watching a sports movie where you root for the underdog.  I say collective, because I can't guess the mechanism....and energy induced something, a complex of somethings.  Maybe it just input from all of our senses that formulates the conclusion that someone or something needs help.  

 

I've considered in the past that somehow there must be a right and a wrong because morality seems to be passed in genetics.  For example, you have a moral man and I'm thinking his children will lean more towards morality.  Again AG, just speculating.

 

And I've always considered the sheer number of reactions that make us individuals as something so incalculable, that a question like "spirit" will never be answered.

 

Good question....

[walterpthefirst]

Sorry about this Ed... I know these words were addressed to alreadyGone.

 

But, what's an 'individual collective'?

 

A singular group?

A lone crowd?

A separate aggregate?

 

?

[midniterider]

Jumbo shrimp.

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Jumbo shrimp.

 

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

Sorry about this Ed... I know these words were addressed to alreadyGone.

 

But, what's an 'individual collective'?

 

A singular group?

A lone crowd?

A separate aggregate?

 

?

Collection of senses, collection of chemical reactions, ...how ever you wish to separate the collective that is an individual.

[alreadyGone]

10 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

....

Good question....

 

Isn't it though?

 

I was a believer for 60 years Edgar.

It's a question I never once asked myself.

 

Is there anything else in our shared human experience which is so taken for granted without question as this belief in a human spirit?

How is it we come to be so certain of something we cannot even define?

 

I can think of nothing so irrational as a certainty of something you cannot see, touch, taste, smell, hear, measure, or prove when you know you can't even in honesty claim to have any true understanding what it is.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

3 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Isn't it though?

 

I was a believer for 60 years Edgar.

It's a question I never once asked myself.

 

Is there anything else in our shared human experience which is so taken for granted without question as this belief in a human spirit?

How is it we come to be so certain of something we cannot even define?

 

I can think of nothing so irrational as a certainty of something you cannot see, touch, taste, smell, hear, measure, or prove when you know you can't even in honesty claim to have any true understanding what it is.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you've touched on the heart of the matter, aG.

 

Seeing as this thread is about mental weakness / illness.

 

Where does our desire for there to be something beyond our senses and our rationality come from?

 

Our emotions.

 

So, if our emotions cause us to believe in things that contradict our senses and our rationality...

 

...is this not a sign of mental weakness / illness?

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Collection of senses, collection of chemical reactions, ...how ever you wish to separate the collective that is an individual.

 

Ok Ed, thanks for explaining.

 

For a while I was struggling with what looked like an oxymoron.

 

https://examples.yourdictionary.com/examples-of-oxymorons.html

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Perhaps you've touched on the heart of the matter, aG.

 

Seeing as this thread is about mental weakness / illness.

 

Where does our desire for there to be something beyond our senses and our rationality come from?

 

Our emotions.

 

So, if our emotions cause us to believe in things that contradict our senses and our rationality...

 

...is this not a sign of mental weakness / illness?

Way to go, @alreadyGone.  Now you've completely Vulcanized him.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

May he live long and prosper.

[alreadyGone]

In my experience, the majority of Christian believers would assume one to be mentally ill or infantile to believe in ghosts, goblins, and other 'haunts'.

 

And yet they vehemently assert the existence of a supernatural divine god, along with a population of angels and demons.

 

They hold no more evidence for the existence of these divine and demonic "spiritual beings" than they have evidence against the existence of ghosts.

 

They believe that human beings possess an inner spiritual self, and yet they don't believe that some human spirits roam the earth devoid of their physical bodies.

 

Belief in ghosts and goblins is assumed to be superstition, while belief in a supernatural being who spoke the heavens and earth into being is asserted as fact.

 

All of it in the absence of any definition of the concept of "spiritual being".

Nor any objective proof that any spiritual being of any kind actually exists, anywhere.

 

[midniterider]

Good comparison, a.g.

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

In my experience, the majority of Christian believers would assume one to be mentally ill or infantile to believe in ghosts, goblins, and other 'haunts'.

 

And yet they vehemently assert the existence of a supernatural divine god, along with a population of angels and demons.

 

They hold no more evidence for the existence of these divine and demonic "spiritual beings" than they have evidence against the existence of ghosts.

 

They believe that human beings possess an inner spiritual self, and yet they don't believe that some human spirits roam the earth devoid of their physical bodies.

 

Belief in ghosts and goblins is assumed to be superstition, while belief in a supernatural being who spoke the heavens and earth into being is asserted as fact.

 

All of it in the absence of any definition of the concept of "spiritual being".

Nor any objective proof that any spiritual being of any kind actually exists, anywhere.

 

 

It seems that you are an equal opportunity sceptic, aG.

 

Like me.

 

https://www.ex-christian.net/topic/85880-my-pastor-sets-me-straight/page/7/#comment-1249773

 

Don't pick on the poor JW's. Although they take the Bible more literally than most other religions, all religions are equally stupid concerning their stupid beliefs. No?

 

It's not what you think, Pantheory.

The JW's came up in the course of this thread and Fish was vociferous in denouncing their views about Jesus.

I have nothing against them in particular.

I'm an equal-opportunity sceptic, treating ALL things believed by faith by ANY religion as not meeting the standard of objective evidence.

Thank you.

Walter.

 

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

In my experience, the majority of Christian believers would assume one to be mentally ill or infantile to believe in ghosts, goblins, and other 'haunts'.

 

And yet they vehemently assert the existence of a supernatural divine god, along with a population of angels and demons.

 

They hold no more evidence for the existence of these divine and demonic "spiritual beings" than they have evidence against the existence of ghosts.

 

They believe that human beings possess an inner spiritual self, and yet they don't believe that some human spirits roam the earth devoid of their physical bodies.

 

Belief in ghosts and goblins is assumed to be superstition, while belief in a supernatural being who spoke the heavens and earth into being is asserted as fact.

 

All of it in the absence of any definition of the concept of "spiritual being".

Nor any objective proof that any spiritual being of any kind actually exists, anywhere.

 

I would suggest you get over the ideology and believe what you think is best at this point until you decide you believe something else.  I assure you, your ideologies will change as you age...

 

Again for the umpteenth time, none of it IS or ever WILL be definable.  Choose the ideology that best fits your gut/heart until it doesn't fit anymore and trust that you and your direction are the best you can do for you and this world/others.  Lamenting the bullshit is wasting good time where you could be making a difference instead of pondering some assholes opinion....because that sir, is all we have opinion.

 

There will always be something smaller than we can measure, always something greater that we can fathom.  Don't fucking waste the time....you only get what  you get....to my knowledge, not my faith.

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

Good comparison, a.g.

You used to be cool,..

[midniterider]

4 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I would suggest you get over the ideology and believe what you think is best at this point until you decide you believe something else.  I assure you, your ideologies will change as you age...

 

Again for the umpteenth time, none of it IS or ever WILL be definable.  Choose the ideology that best fits your gut/heart until it doesn't fit anymore and trust that you and your direction are the best you can do for you and this world/others.  Lamenting the bullshit is wasting good time where you could be making a difference instead of pondering some assholes opinion....because that sir, is all we have opinion.

 

There will always be something smaller than we can measure, always something greater that we can fathom.  Don't fucking waste the time....you only get what  you get....to my knowledge, not my faith.

 

Good advice, sir. We do change over time.  

[alreadyGone]

12 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

I would suggest you get over the ideology and believe what you think is best at this point until you decide you believe something else.  I assure you, your ideologies will change as you age...

...

 

I was a devout (Protestant) Christian believer from early childhood.

At age 60 I lost that belief. That was a few years ago.

 

I'm not confident I have so much aging yet to do.

One can only hope.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Again for the umpteenth time, none of it IS or ever WILL be definable. 

 

 

If that's so Ed, how do you suggest that this thread should proceed?

 

As far as I can see further discussion is impossible unless we can agree upon certain definitions.

 

The 'oxymoron' case being a good example.

 

Until you defined what you meant by 'individual collectives', we couldn't follow you.

 

If none of this is definable then I can't see how we can communicate about it.

 

Unless you can suggest something?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

[Edgarcito]

11 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

I was a devout (Protestant) Christian believer from early childhood.

At age 60 I lost that belief. That was a few years ago.

 

I'm not confident I have so much aging yet to do.

One can only hope.

 

 

I apologize for cussing and being harsh...  I'm frustrated myself, obviously.  When I came here several years ago and thanks to the crowd here, I went through a "do I believe crisis".  Scared me several times.  I still have moments. 

 

I guess I've never felt like it was totally dead.  I still feel as though I get periodic revelations and still have those peak moments of spirituality that make me believe that God is still communicating despite my life.  It's very comforting.

 

I truly hope you find resolution and peace in your race.  For me, I despise that we get a certain age and realize how much time was wasted.  I hope you and I both, with less time than more, find the blessings in what we know now and pass those along effectively before whatever is ahead.  

 

 

[alreadyGone]

6 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

...I truly hope you find resolution and peace in your race.  For me, I despise that we get a certain age and realize how much time was wasted.  I hope you and I both, with less time than more, find the blessings in what we know now and pass those along effectively before whatever is ahead.  

 

 

 

I share your frustration, and I know it well.

Benjamin Franklin wrote: "a child believes that 20 dollars and 20 years could never be spent".

 

May you find peace and abundant blessings.

 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

You used to be cool,..

 

Your brother in Christ, Johnny,  has been inching me closer to atheism with his special brand of evangelism.  So I may be less cool as a result.

 

aG has good points, at least from a logical standpoint. 

 

But since I'm still agnostic, so here's something in your favor, Ed:

 

 

Walter: Where does our desire for there to be something beyond our senses and our rationality come from?

Our emotions. So, if our emotions cause us to believe in things that contradict our senses and our rationality...

...is this not a sign of mental weakness / illness?

 

Me: Is too much rationality a mental weakness / illness? Rational thought keeps us alive but our irrational emotions make us whole. 

 

edit: If I have a mental illness because I might now and then believe in a deity...I'm good with that.  

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Rational thought keeps us alive but our irrational emotions make us whole. 

I would argue that there are times when it's our irrational emotions that keep us alive.

[midniterider]

36 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I would argue that there are times when it's our irrational emotions that keep us alive.

 

Intuition can sometimes be correct even if there is no logic or factual evidence to back it up. 

 

I would not want to rely entirely on reason. 

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

10 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Intuition can sometimes be correct even if there is no logic or factual evidence to back it up. 

 

I would not want to rely entirely on reason. 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree.

 

I also happen to believe that none of us rely entirely on logic and factual evidence.

 

That would make us more Vulcan than Mr. Spock.

 

 

But there's a caveat to this.

 

Unless we can articulate our intuitions and feelings so that others can comprehend them, dialogue suffers.

 

Or fails entirely.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Spock was half human.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Spock was half human.

 

That was my point, Prof.

 

I also happen to believe that none of us rely entirely on logic and factual evidence.

That would make us more Vulcan than Mr. Spock.

 

I didn't pick Spock as an example of someone who relied entirely upon logic and factual evidence.

 

Because of his human side.

 

But, if I recall my original Trek, the Vulcan race haven't entirely shed their emotions, they've just suppressed them.

 

Hence the Pon farr.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pon_farr

 

If Vulcan's were entirely emotionless then the Pon farr wouldn't happen.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.