Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[Edgarcito]

Just so we will have something to beat each other with, please feel free, I mean bound by logic, to comment on the title of this thread.  I know the Bible is big on freedom, just haven't explored it much, and seemingly logic binds us on some levels.  With that, greetings fellow combatants, may odds be ever in you favor...

[RankStranger]

Let's say you're given a choice:  Do as you are commanded, particularly when it makes no sense at all... or you will be tortured for all eternity.

 

Is that a free choice?

[Edgarcito]

51 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Let's say you're given a choice:  Do as you are commanded, particularly when it makes no sense at all... or you will be tortured for all eternity.

 

Is that a free choice?

Yes, two choices, follow the command that makes no sense, the other is eternal torture.  The choice in itself still appears free.

[RankStranger]

That's stupid.

[Edgarcito]

1 minute ago, RankStranger said:

That's stupid.

You might want to reread your question and state it differently then...

[RankStranger]

Nope, not interested in this sort of semantics game.

[Edgarcito]

42 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Nope, not interested in this sort of semantics game.

You're the one that wrote it.  Your choice C I'm gathering implies "none of the above", and the ego/self that the Bible suggests a similar scenario to Eve....that she be like God.

Not to mention that we are forced into situations every day that don't make immediate sense, and that our reaction could mean less than wonderful consequences.  

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Just so we will have something to beat each other with, please feel free, I mean bound by logic, to comment on the title of this thread.  I know the Bible is big on freedom, just haven't explored it much, and seemingly logic binds us on some levels.  With that, greetings fellow combatants, may odds be ever in you favor...

When faith vs logic it fails which equals freedom from oppressive religious rules. If you so inclined to accept the logic.

 

Unless your Ed. Then you can be "faithful" and still be free from religious rules. Which makes no logical sense if you've read the Bible. 

[Edgarcito]

13 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

When faith vs logic it fails which equals freedom from oppressive religious rules. If you so inclined to accept the logic.

 

Unless your Ed. Then you can be "faithful" and still be free from religious rules. Which makes no logical sense if you've read the Bible. 

The Grace covenant is oppressive as opposed to some logical system that would certainly be fallible?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

25 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

The Grace covenant is oppressive as opposed to some logical system that would certainly be fallible?

What I'm saying is from my former religions perspective. Your no better off than us lowly ExC members. Your brand of Christianity is, in my opinion, a better brand of Christianity because you can live your life. But its not in accordance with scripture. 

[Henndigo]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

You're the one that wrote it.  Your choice C I'm gathering implies "none of the above", and the ego/self that the Bible suggests a similar scenario to Eve....that she be like God.

Not to mention that we are forced into situations every day that don't make immediate sense, and that our reaction could mean less than wonderful consequences.  

 

 

 

 

Every day situations make so much more sense when you take God out of it to be honest.  For example if you have a disability, you can either explain it scientifically through genetics passed down by a parent and then look for resources to cope with the daily medical, social and economic consequences.  Or on the other hand, you might torture yourself and speculate as to why God decided that you have been allocated to have the disability because you were “chosen” or “very special” etc. and all the consequences of having the disability such as not being able to find work is all about you being special and loved.  Very confusing!

Or if you lose relatives to war, you can understand it through the history and social factors that led to the oppressive regime taking control of your country rather than as something brought about by God to test you and or bring the end times or whatever.

 

 

[pantheory]

Faith, Logic, and Freedom

 

Howdy Edgarcito,

 

I'm glad that most countries of the world today have many freedoms including freedom of religion. Logic is all-important to decide the truths of reality and of life, and to make good decisions for a better life for yourself and others. Faith has value in that with enough evidence one can trust in their own decisions and sometimes those of others without endless questioning without action. Faith in religion for the most part involves faith in the validity of one's Bible, but I think that the Bible of Christianity and of all the religions of the world are of no more value than Greek mythology --  little or nothing within them is true. Humans are simply animals IMO.  THE END.

[walterpthefirst]

18 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Just so we will have something to beat each other with, please feel free, I mean bound by logic, to comment on the title of this thread.  I know the Bible is big on freedom, just haven't explored it much, and seemingly logic binds us on some levels.  With that, greetings fellow combatants, may odds be ever in you favor...

 

The purpose of this thread appears to be you looking for a fight, Ed.

 

Since when did bible-believing Christians go around looking to cause trouble and strife?

 

'Blessed are the peacemakers because they will be called children of god.'  (Matthew 5 : 9)

 

 

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

The purpose of this thread appears to be you looking for a fight, Ed.

 

Since when did bible-believing Christians go around looking to cause trouble and strife?

 

'Blessed are the peacemakers because they will be called children of god.'  (Matthew 5 : 9)

 

 

No, no fight.  The Prof shut down his other thread and Dave needs traffic.  Always fun to banter back and forth.  As I said, the Bible talks about freedom a good bit.  I personally have never had any revelations on that subject, so I thought I would just throw something out and see where it goes.  Your Hebrews 11 keeps coming to mind, that God is seemingly much more in favor of faith rather than logic.  I'll see if I can be more specific.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

7 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

No, no fight.  The Prof shut down his other thread and Dave needs traffic.  Always fun to banter back and forth.  As I said, the Bible talks about freedom a good bit.  I personally have never had any revelations on that subject, so I thought I would just throw something out and see where it goes.  Your Hebrews 11 keeps coming to mind, that God is seemingly much more in favor of faith rather than logic.  I'll see if I can be more specific.  Thx.

 

Yes, that would help, Ed.

 

If you could specify what you mean by the words Faith, Logic and Freedom, that would help.

 

Faith can mean different things to different people, so why not explain to us how you are using that word.  That would help.

 

Freedom, the same.  Freedom from what?  Freedom in the context of what?  Doing that would also help.

 

If you define the terms in which you'd like the discussion to proceed, that would be helpful.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:02 PM, Edgarcito said:

Yes, two choices, follow the command that makes no sense, the other is eternal torture.  The choice in itself still appears free.

Would you subject your children to such a "choice", Ed?

[walterpthefirst]

On 10/14/2022 at 8:39 PM, Edgarcito said:

You're the one that wrote it.  Your choice C I'm gathering implies "none of the above", and the ego/self that the Bible suggests a similar scenario to Eve....that she be like God.

Not to mention that we are forced into situations every day that don't make immediate sense, and that our reaction could mean less than wonderful consequences.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edgarcito,

 

Who forced Adam and Eve into their 'situation' in Eden?

 

There are only four players in the story; Adam, Eve, Satan and god.

 

So, which of those four did the forcing?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

We can simplify the question by 50% , Edgarcito.

 

Of the four players in the story, Adam and Eve can be eliminated.

 

That's because they were not responsible for setting up of the conditions under which they lived in Eden.

 

That leaves just Satan and god.

 

So, which of those two forced Adam and Eve into their 'situation' in Eden?

[Edgarcito]

Gal 5:1

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:2

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:3

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:5

For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:7

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

TOOLS

 Gal 5:8

That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:9

“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”

TOOLS

 Gal 5:10

I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:11

Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:12

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

TOOLS

 Gal 5:13

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[fn]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:14

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[fn]

TOOLS

 Gal 5:15

If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:16

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:17

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[fn] you want.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:19

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

TOOLS

 Gal 5:20

idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

TOOLS

 Gal 5:21

and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

TOOLS

 Gal 5:23

gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:24

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:25

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:26

Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

Seems rather evident the comparison between circumcision and logic.  And given that logic often moves us in an errant direction, why then choose it?

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarcito,

 

No matter what subject, topic or theme relating to Christianity you create a thread about, ultimately it will always circle back to Eden.

 

That's because whatever you want to discuss about Christianity ultimately had its origin there.

 

Faith, logic, freedom, grace, the Law, the gifts of the spirit, the fruit of the spirit, etc.

 

All of these things owe their existence to what happened in Eden.

 

It all begins there.

 

So...  c u there.

 

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Gal 5:1

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:2

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:3

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:5

For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:7

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

TOOLS

 Gal 5:8

That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:9

“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”

TOOLS

 Gal 5:10

I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:11

Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:12

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

TOOLS

 Gal 5:13

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[fn]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:14

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[fn]

TOOLS

 Gal 5:15

If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:16

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:17

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[fn] you want.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:19

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

TOOLS

 Gal 5:20

idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

TOOLS

 Gal 5:21

and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

TOOLS

 Gal 5:23

gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:24

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:25

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:26

Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

Seems rather evident the comparison between circumcision and logic.  And given that logic often moves us in an errant direction, why then choose it?

Ed, what version of the Bible is this? I noticed a drastic difference in my usual king James version and this version in verse 12. 

 

KJV

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

 

What you posted

12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

I know this is weird. But this is exactly the type of verse my old church would have used to bash other versions than the KJV. This says 2 completely different things to me. In the KJV it sounds like they are being banished from the church. To be cut off from the people. In your version it sounds like Paul wishes their dicks were cut off. Thats some brutal shit right there  

 

As it relates to the subject. I don't see a correlation. I would have used this scripture to teach that we are no longer under the old law but under a new covenant with Jesus Christ. Another subject I would use this scripture in would be to prove out how the Bible says you can lose salvation and that if God Guides you, you'll live a Christ like life. I was adamantly against the once saved always saved doctrine. 

 

I also don't see how logic moves us in an errant direction. I do however see how emotion can cause us to make "bad decisions". 

 

So was it that Logic made them Err. Or was it the emotion (fear) that was induced by the logic of these false teachers that caused them to Err? 

 

Ultimately they were trying to do the right thing. But they were being confused by the Jews in the church. So Paul needed to clarify a few things. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Gal 5:1

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:2

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:3

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:4

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:5

For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:7

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?

TOOLS

 Gal 5:8

That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:9

“A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”

TOOLS

 Gal 5:10

I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:11

Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:12

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

TOOLS

 Gal 5:13

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[fn]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:14

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[fn]

TOOLS

 Gal 5:15

If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:16

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:17

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[fn] you want.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:18

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:19

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

TOOLS

 Gal 5:20

idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

TOOLS

 Gal 5:21

and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

TOOLS

 Gal 5:23

gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:24

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:25

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

TOOLS

 Gal 5:26

Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

Seems rather evident the comparison between circumcision and logic.  And given that logic often moves us in an errant direction, why then choose it?

 

So there are two logical arguments proposed here. One from the Jews. The other from Paul. 

 

So how could Logic be the culprit? Paul used Logic as well. This was an early debate on what was to be taught in the church. Both sides were making their arguments. Both using whatever logic they understood from scripture and what was being taught about Jesus and the fulfillment of the covenant. 

 

Like I said. I don't see how this correlates with the point you were making. 

 

You try to argue with us using your Christian Logic.

 

We counter with our secular and Christian logic in some cases  

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

 

Seems rather evident the comparison between circumcision and logic.  And given that logic often moves us in an errant direction, why then choose it?

 

Just a gentle reminder of my polite request from Saturday, Ed.

 

"If you define the terms in which you'd like the discussion to proceed, that would be helpful."

 

So, how are you defining logic in the context of Galatians 5?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 10/14/2022 at 3:02 PM, Edgarcito said:

Yes, two choices, follow the command that makes no sense, the other is eternal torture.  The choice in itself still appears free.

 

On 10/17/2022 at 6:35 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Would you subject your children to such a "choice", Ed?

Whenever you get around to it, Ed...

[mwc]

13 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

We can simplify the question by 50% , Edgarcito.

 

Of the four players in the story, Adam and Eve can be eliminated.

 

That's because they were not responsible for setting up of the conditions under which they lived in Eden.

 

That leaves just Satan and god.

 

So, which of those two forced Adam and Eve into their 'situation' in Eden?

     Are you sure about all this?  

 

     The only canonical biblical ties I can find to support this idea are from Revelation and they're tenuous at best.  Can anyone clearly demonstrate that "9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him" really refers to the serpent in the garden?  Especially considering that this same dragon is defined only a few lines earlier like this "3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads."  

 

     I realize this is supposed to talk about some mythical story of how Satan and the angels rebelled and were sent to earth but the story written here doesn't line up with Genesis.  Shortly after being thrown to Earth we find the dragon doing the following "13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child."  An impossible thing since Adam and Eve had yet to have sex in their innocent state.

 

     So none of this can have anything to do with Genesis.  It doesn't line up.  This dragon, serpent or Satan isn't what lies in the garden.  Odds are this is more likely a callback to Leviathan (mentioned elsewhere in the bible).  We need some other connections to replace the cunning (legged) serpent with Satan.  If we search apocryphal texts we might do better but those don't really do us much good here.

 

          mwc