Are some teachings of the bible salvageable?

[RankStranger]

16 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

This is why I think it would be good to "take away" some of it. 

 

I agree all of these lessons were probably acceptable and relatable in their time. But now humans as a species have evolved past these beliefs. And it is these beliefs that slow our progression moving forward.

 

We can't move forward as a species when we are still fighting millenia long wars sparked by these beliefs in the crusades. 

 

We can't have equality when the predominate religious ideologies of the world are against equality for women, LGBTQ community, slaves, people of other faiths, etc

 

We NEED these TOXIC beliefs to go away so that we can commit our focus, as a species, to better ideologies that promote individual freedom, space exploration, taking care of our planet and each other simultaneously. These beliefs are counter productive. So yes, in this respect I believe at the very least these archaic toxic beliefs shod be taken out and the religions should be restructured.

 

And it isn't like it hasn't been done before. We already know that the Bible was updated atleast 4 times in ancient days. I submit that it was edited atleast 5 times as now we know that by the time the bible was put together as we know it, most traces of the more ancient polytheistic pantheon of El had been erased except for a few Instances here or there which we can still see. 

 

Thankfully the Ugarit tablets were found that give us a glimpse into that era. 

 

Like I said, its nothing new. Even Christians changed it with forgeries in the new testament as beliefs moved past the life of the apostles. The early church believed Jesus would be back before the apostles died. When that didn't happen (poof) 2nd Peter was born. 

 

DB

 

What's this "we", white man? 

 

'We humans have absolutely not evolved past Christian beliefs... or mythological beliefs in general.  A large majority of humans are religious- and even those of you who aren't... you still believe in all sorts of secular mythologies.  We all do.  Take away the religion, and humans will just latch onto something else with religious fervor.  It could be communism, capitalism, nationalism, wokeism, War on Drugs, environmentalism, Q-Anon, consumerism, authoritarianism, corporatism, democracy, socialism, flag/military worship (popular here in America), objectivism, Maoism, imperialism, feudalism... the list could go on if I was smarter.  All of these rely on a set of mythologies containing various levels of truth and fairy tales.  All of these involve certain beliefs that may or may not be true, but 'believers' face in-group repercussions should their beliefs deviate from said -ism in the wrong place at the wrong time (repercussions ranging from social pressure to pogroms).  Many of these have inspired wars and all sorts of brutality.  We humans need and crave mythology, sacred cattle, ritual and group identity, IMO.  Religion is just a subset of the ideologies that we apes use to fling feces at each other and justify all sorts of noble and shitty behavior.  Take away religion, and all you accomplish is some other sort of crazy taking root.  IMO.

 

And just as a matter of rhetoric... you're not going to win many people over by suggesting that we need to actively get rid of religion.  There's quite a lot of history on political movements that explicitly worked to get rid of religion- I'm sure you can think of examples.  It has never, ever, turned out well.  That's not to say that atheism as a movement is doomed to the same sort of failure... but any deliberate project to make religious beliefs "go away" is doomed to fail and likely to backfire.  IMO.

 

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We can't have equality when the predominate religious ideologies of the world are against equality for women, LGBTQ community, slaves, people of other faiths, etc

 

I agree with this statement though, and I'm going to go off on a tangent.

 

The other day I came across what I thought was an interesting observation:  There has never existed a society with universal education and gender equality... that has been able to maintain even a replacement birth rate, let alone population growth, over the long term.  It's something you can see over and over through history, all over the world.  When countries industrialize and modernize, people get uppity and demand things like rights and education.  And within a few decades the birth rate inevitably falls off a cliff.  Places like Japan, Russia, Korea and China are well ahead of the U.S. in this process.  Places like Mexico and South Africa aren't as far along in this process as the U.S., but are demonstrably on the same path.

 

Conservative Christians and conservative Muslims are resistant to this effect, possibly because they don't support these ideals of education and gender equality.  Their birth rates have stayed well above replacement, and that's why they're such a force in the world.  This difference in birth rates really adds up, even over just a few decades.  If they can maintain their cultural cohesion (children keeping the faith), much of the world will be inherited by cultures that just don't care much about things like education and gender equality.

 

The only way that secular people can out-pace this growth is via defection of those religious kids.  That's been working pretty well for several decades, as these kids grow up and are often alienated by idiocy and shittiness in their original culture.  Who knows how long that will continue?  But if your project is successful and there are no more conservative Christians cranking out babies, population growth will drop like a rock... just like Russia, Japan, and China.  It's anybody's guess how that will play out, but I don't think it'll be pretty.  And this birth-rate problem... it's like a built-in check & balance on secularism.  You can have all the secularism you want... as your society withers on the vine.

 

Maybe some form of secularism will show up eventually, where non-religious people can support a stable or growing population.  It's just that this has never happened on any large scale so far.  Some of your more toxic Christians like to paint secular people as anti-life, because ya'll support sinful things like birth control and abortion.  I don't agree with that sort of rhetoric, but it's effective because there's a grain of truth in it.  There's a strong vein of antinatalism within secular American culture.  It's understandable too.  This world is fucked up in a variety of ways.  And a lot of women, given the choice and the education to make the choice, choose to do other things with their life besides cranking out babies.  I have no personal objection to this- my wife and I didn't want kids either.  I'm just saying that it's not sustainable as a cultural movement over the long run.

 

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We NEED these TOXIC beliefs to go away so that we can commit our focus, as a species, to better ideologies that promote individual freedom, space exploration, taking care of our planet and each other simultaneously. These beliefs are counter productive. So yes, in this respect I believe at the very least these archaic toxic beliefs shod be taken out and the religions should be restructured.

 

And it isn't like it hasn't been done before. We already know that the Bible was updated atleast 4 times in ancient days. I submit that it was edited atleast 5 times as now we know that by the time the bible was put together as we know it, most traces of the more ancient polytheistic pantheon of El had been erased except for a few Instances here or there which we can still see. 

I'm sure your facts are correct here.  But good luck making toxic beliefs go way.  That's a fool's errand IMO.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

The Hadza tribe in Africa have no religion but are a peaceful and egalitarian group that live in small clans.  And seem to have done so for thousands of years. They are mainly hunters and gatherers with some "modern tools" like axes and hoes, but are being squeezed out of existance by modern development. In their small groups they are able to keep a sense of community, or "kinship" which holds their society together. They feel like they "belong."  That is needed to hold any society together.

 

In the book "Sapiens"  it talks about what holds a society together.  It says that when a group gets above about 125 people that sense of community, the "WE" that holds them together, begins to fade.  And when groups get larger, what holds people together in unity is a common idealism, or purpose.  Religion serves that purpose by providing common beliefs and goals.  And  belonging to a spectacular, omnipotent, powerful god, with the added motivation of a promised eternal reward for obedience, and punishment for disobedience, can really bind us together.  SMART MOVE, HUH??  (see my new thread in the questions forum)

 

So, if we could come up with a way to promote a sense of community, a sense of belonging and purpose, could we get rid of an omnipotent god??

 

One more point.  Despots (including the Abrahamic god) (and Hitler) are masters at coming up with an "enemy" (the devil, and Jews) that must be destroyed.  That is an excelent way to get people to band togther and feel they have a common purpose.  And in our nation today gays, atheists, etc are in the devil catagory.

 

And as Rank said, gays and abortions are enemies of capitalism, and right wing christians. They don't produce more people to sell products to, and protect us if attacted by an enemy.  And as a side, wars are very profitable for some huge corporations.  In a sense, Abrahamic religions can be used to increase power and profit.  But that is getting off topic.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

7 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

  But good luck making toxic beliefs go way.  That's a fool's errand IMO.

 

Yep.  Unless you can come up with a positive to fill the void.

[RankStranger]

4 hours ago, Weezer said:

The Hadza tribe in Africa have no religion but are a peaceful and egalitarian group that live in small clans.  And seem to have done so for thousands of years. They are mainly hunters and gatherers with some "modern tools" like axes and hoes, but are being squeezed out of existance by modern development. In their small groups they are able to keep a sense of community, or "kinship" which holds their society together. They feel like they "belong."  That is needed to hold any society together.

 

 

That's a fair point.  I shouldn't be so categorical in my statements- there are always outliers and I don't know if there even are limits on what form human societies can take.

 

But I don't know anything about this tribe.  They may not have a religion, but do they also lack mythology?  Or do they just have a different thing that my mostly modern western self wouldn't know about?

 

It's hard to imagine a tribe or culture with no mythology.  What would the culture be without that?

 

 

Quote

In the book "Sapiens"  it talks about what holds a society together.  It says that when a group gets above about 125 people that sense of community, the "WE" that holds them together, begins to fade.  And when groups get larger, what holds people together in unity is a common idealism, or purpose.  Religion serves that purpose by providing common beliefs and goals.  And  belonging to a spectacular, omnipotent, powerful god, with the added motivation of a promised eternal reward for obedience, and punishment for disobedience, can really bind us together.  SMART MOVE, HUH??  (see my new thread in the questions forum)

 

 

Religion does serve that purpose, and probably a lot of others.  You've probably heard about that Chesterton's Fence thing.  And it works the way it works.  Don't blame me- I didn't design it.  But it's continued to function in one form after another for thousands of years.  That ain't nothin'- that's a powerful thing.  That's a thing upon which history turns.

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So, if we could come up with a way to promote a sense of community, a sense of belonging and purpose, could we get rid of an omnipotent god??

 

That's been tried plenty of times.  It usually fails- as evidenced by the fact that most humans are religious.

 

Russia and China tried to replace God with Communism.  The history speaks for itself.

 

Quote

 

 

One more point.  Despots (including the Abrahamic god) (and Hitler) are masters at coming up with an "enemy" (the devil, and Jews) that must be destroyed.  That is an excelent way to get people to band togther and feel they have a common purpose.  And in our nation today gays, atheists, etc are in the devil catagory.

 

 I'm sorry about how a lot of Christians have treated gays and Atheists.  It's really shitty, but Baptists gonna Baptist, right?  But the bible says what it says- that can't be changed.  I guess you could try re-writing it - it's been done before 

 

 

Quote

And as Rank said, gays and abortions are enemies of capitalism, and right wing christians. They don't produce more people to sell products to, and protect us if attacted by an enemy.  And as a side, wars are very profitable for some huge corporations.  In a sense, Abrahamic religions can be used to increase power and profit.  But that is getting off topic.

 

I don't think I quite said the part that's bolded , but a lot of people do see it that way.  I agree with you on the rest.

[RankStranger]

3 hours ago, Weezer said:

Yep.  Unless you can come up with a positive to fill the void.

 

Have you found that for yourself?  If so, all you gotta to is convince other people of the same, and the problem is solved.

[RankStranger]

11 hours ago, RankStranger said:

 

There's quite a lot of history on political movements that explicitly worked to get rid of religion- I'm sure you can think of examples.  It has never, ever, turned out well.  That's not to say that atheism as a movement is doomed to the same sort of failure... but any deliberate project to make religious beliefs "go away" is doomed to fail and likely to backfire.  IMO.

 

 

 

 

France turned out pretty well.  I think a lot of Western Europe has.

[RankStranger]

Just now, RankStranger said:

 

France turned out pretty well.  I think a lot of Western Europe has.

 

True enough, for now.  But how long will that last at their current birth rate?  Keeping in mind the birth rate of conservative Christians and Muslims in France.

[RankStranger]

Just now, RankStranger said:

 

True enough, for now.  But how long will that last at their current birth rate?  Keeping in mind the birth rate of conservative Christians and Muslims in France.

 

WTF is your obsession with birth rate?  Freud would have something to say about this 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

17 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

True enough, for now.  But how long will that last at their current birth rate?  Keeping in mind the birth rate of conservative Christians and Muslims in France.

You make a good point.  Baring other factors, whoever has the most kids will eventually have the most power.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 6/29/2023 at 10:57 AM, RankStranger said:

What's this "we", white man? 

 

'We humans have absolutely not evolved past Christian beliefs... or mythological beliefs in general.

I have to ask, why did you specifically say "white man"? Does it matter what the color of my skin is?

 

Maybe it would be better if I used present tense instead of past tense. your right, we haven't evolved past belief in myths. But you need to look at the trends and take into account different events of our evolutionary past. 

 

Humans developed languages independently of one another, roughly around the same time. Note, it wasn't instantaneous. Over the course of thousands of years we developed our various languages. And languages later influenced each other as different groups came together. 

 

Globally humans switched from hunter gatherer lifestyles to agricultural lifestyles again roughly around the same time, independently of one another. 

 

Now people are beginning to see the holes in religion and that it is mostly myth with a few historical fiction stories and some facts added in for believability. I'm not saying religion will be gone the next decade or 100 years even. But yes, if our knowledge base is allowed to keep expanding as it has been for the past few hundred years and as we discover more truths. I believe people will move toward more fact based beliefs than myth based beliefs. What those beliefs will look like? I don't know and unfortunately I don't think I will see it in my lifetime. But I do know that according to statistics the church is dwindling. And I think the most likely cause of that is people are realizing that the Bible depicts things like a flat earth creation, sin where there shouldn't be sin,  like in the case of homosexuals or people practicing other faiths. I mean Christianity excludes everyone who is not a believer in Christ. The rest go to Hell. Muslims from what I understand are much the same but for Muslims, I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of traditional Judaism. But I know they still look for an earthly resurrection as depicted in the storey of The valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. When people dig into the history, which is now at our fingertips via the internet, they can find out about all the atrocities committed by God loving Christians in the past. We've seen first hand what Islamic "not so extreme" extremists have wrought in our own era. The reason I said not so extreme is because ultimately they are following the directions of the Koran. I've known two or three families that weren't considered Islamic extremists who all had a female relative they wanted to take back to their country just so they could stone them. I'm sorry...... to me thats still extreme. 

 

Basically religion is starting to lose its appeal and its believability. Unless something akin to Islamic state information suppression happens and information continues to flow freely to the minds of humans. Religion will either have to change or suffer great losses. But yes, it could be re-written. And once Christians accept that it has already been done to their own beliefs multiple times maybe they will allow it to happen.

 

On 6/29/2023 at 10:57 AM, RankStranger said:

We humans need and crave mythology, sacred cattle, ritual and group identity, IMO. 

Are you sure this isn't a pre-conceived notion based on your own inability to let your tribes religion go? Im not trying to poke at you, its just an observation. You weren't able to let it go completely so you think others can't. While I admittedly am not athiest, I still have no desire to return to the faith I came from. There is just no point for me to. I know to much now. I can't believe in a book of edits, forgeries, and outright lies.

 

I have other tribes tho. I have this online tribe at ExC it fills most of the holes left by religious belief. The main thing is having a sense of purpose. And my purpose here is to aid others going through the same type of realization most of us have had. I have a maintenance Tribe from being in the maintenance field. And I have my children. I don't believe any of them are going to end up Christian. So my life feels pretty full right now. 

 

Thats all I can type for now. Gotta get back to work before they fire me. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:20 PM, DarkBishop said:

I have to ask, why did you specifically say "white man"? Does it matter what the color of my skin is?

 

Maybe it would be better if I used present tense instead of past tense. your right, we haven't evolved past belief in myths. But you need to look at the trends and take into account different events of our evolutionary past. 

 

Humans developed languages independently of one another, roughly around the same time. Note, it wasn't instantaneous. Over the course of thousands of years we developed our various languages. And languages later influenced each other as different groups came together. 

 

Globally humans switched from hunter gatherer lifestyles to agricultural lifestyles again roughly around the same time, independently of one another. 

 

Now people are beginning to see the holes in religion and that it is mostly myth with a few historical fiction stories and some facts added in for believability. I'm not saying religion will be gone the next decade or 100 years even. But yes, if our knowledge base is allowed to keep expanding as it has been for the past few hundred years and as we discover more truths. I believe people will move toward more fact based beliefs than myth based beliefs. What those beliefs will look like? I don't know and unfortunately I don't think I will see it in my lifetime. But I do know that according to statistics the church is dwindling. And I think the most likely cause of that is people are realizing that the Bible depicts things like a flat earth creation, sin where there shouldn't be sin,  like in the case of homosexuals or people practicing other faiths. I mean Christianity excludes everyone who is not a believer in Christ. The rest go to Hell. Muslims from what I understand are much the same but for Muslims, I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of traditional Judaism. But I know they still look for an earthly resurrection as depicted in the storey of The valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37. When people dig into the history, which is now at our fingertips via the internet, they can find out about all the atrocities committed by God loving Christians in the past. We've seen first hand what Islamic "not so extreme" extremists have wrought in our own era. The reason I said not so extreme is because ultimately they are following the directions of the Koran. I've known two or three families that weren't considered Islamic extremists who all had a female relative they wanted to take back to their country just so they could stone them. I'm sorry...... to me thats still extreme. 

 

Basically religion is starting to lose its appeal and its believability. Unless something akin to Islamic state information suppression happens and information continues to flow freely to the minds of humans. Religion will either have to change or suffer great losses. But yes, it could be re-written. And once Christians accept that it has already been done to their own beliefs multiple times maybe they will allow it to happen.

 

Are you sure this isn't a pre-conceived notion based on your own inability to let your tribes religion go? Im not trying to poke at you, its just an observation. You weren't able to let it go completely so you think others can't. While I admittedly am not athiest, I still have no desire to return to the faith I came from. There is just no point for me to. I know to much now. I can't believe in a book of edits, forgeries, and outright lies.

 

I have other tribes tho. I have this online tribe at ExC it fills most of the holes left by religious belief. The main thing is having a sense of purpose. And my purpose here is to aid others going through the same type of realization most of us have had. I have a maintenance Tribe from being in the maintenance field. And I have my children. I don't believe any of them are going to end up Christian. So my life feels pretty full right now. 

 

Thats all I can type for now. Gotta get back to work before they fire me. 

 

DB

 

Nothing in particular was meant, white man, except that I was butchering a quote from Tonto.  I should've said 'What do you mean 'we', white man?" 

 

I had to think about your post for a while, because I'm in a weird situation.  I don't really disagree with anything in your post, in particularly the bolded part... and yet 

 

The bolded is pretty much what I think, based on my own experience (which is in fact the only experience I have).  I wasn't able to let Christianity go, and short of some unhealthy psychological disassociation, I don't think it's really possible to totally let go of things you learned and experienced early in life.  The fact that people are posting in this forum, to me, demonstrates that they haven't fully let Christianity go.  And I'm not saying that you 'should' or shouldn't let it go- you should do what's right for you.  I'm just saying that if you ever did really believe, that belief still lives somewhere in your brain.  I can't say how that manifests, whether it manifests in a visible way at all, or what the implications are where Christian theology is concerned.  But it's there and it's part of who you are.

 

I was a regular here for a solid decade, and the thoughts I've written down speak for themselves.  I considered myself a non-believer for over 30 years (since I was a young teenager), and confidently identified as an Atheist for over 20 years.  I considered it settled, and it wasn't even a question in my mind for those 20+ years.  And, well... you know the rest 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

42 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

The fact that people are posting in this forum, to me, demonstrates that they haven't fully let Christianity go. 

I disagree.  I'm sure there have been some, many perhaps, over the years who posted here because they were still working through the baggage and such.  But I also know that many of us are still here because we have a sincere desire to give something back, and to help those who still might be struggling.  Myself, I had absolutely no support at all during my deconversion; had to handle it all on my own.  It was brutal, and gut-wrenchingly lonely.  I couldn't imagine not doing my bit to ensure no one else has to go through that without help.

[RankStranger]

55 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I disagree.  I'm sure there have been some, many perhaps, over the years who posted here because they were still working through the baggage and such.  But I also know that many of us are still here because we have a sincere desire to give something back, and to help those who still might be struggling.  Myself, I had absolutely no support at all during my deconversion; had to handle it all on my own.  It was brutal, and gut-wrenchingly lonely.  I couldn't imagine not doing my bit to ensure no one else has to go through that without help.

 

I'm not sure how much we actually disagree.  This may come down to word choice and perceived implications.

 

I'm not saying that you're destined to return to the church- that's up to you and I'm sure plenty of ExChristians never do.  I'm just saying that whatever your belief, Christianity has left a mark.  It's changed who you are in a sense.  That experience is part of you, and it's (IMO) why you're still interested in the subject at all (even if you're only interested in opposing it).

 

And as such, it's not really 'left behind'.  Your posts here are still tied to how you interact with Christianity.  Even your moral beliefs and intuition are strongly colored by Christianity (even if you disagree with particulars as an adult)- that's just what happens when a kid is raised as a Christian.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Okay.  Given that explanation, I don't disagree. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 hours ago, RankStranger said:

I'm not saying that you're destined to return to the church- that's up to you and I'm sure plenty of ExChristians never do.  I'm just saying that whatever your belief, Christianity has left a mark.  It's changed who you are in a sense.  That experience is part of you, and it's (IMO) why you're still interested in the subject at all (even if you're only interested in opposing it).

 

Yeah, I can definitely agree with this wording. For me I think the sense of purpose is a bigger scar for me than the fellowship. As a minister, I thought I was the mouth piece of the almighty. Even after I back slid, before deconverting, I hoped I'd straighten out my questions and get behind the pulpit again. 

 

But then I saw enough that I finally figured out it was all a lie. That was a pretty bad blow for me. That meant every word I had said while preaching was just me. God was never with me. My brother Jesus was probably just some false prophet at best. The whole salvation experience was just a big adrenaline rush mixed with relief from intense anxiety brought on by belief in sin. 

 

I didn't even know what to do for awhile. Couldn't preach (didn't believe). My sense of higher purpose was gone. But I found it again in using my knowledge wherever I can here on ExC. Not to mention I have found renewed interest in the bible learning the historical side of things rather than the fictional pulpit side. Makes all those years feel like they weren't wasted as much. 

 

There were several here that reached out to me and helped me along. Kept a check on me from time to time. And just let me know there were others out there that understood. I don't think I would ever be able to truly word how much that meant to me. Yall know who you are . 

 

And that is my higher purpose now. Just trying to help others here. Its enough. 

 

Christianity left its mark for sure. I won't argue against that. 

 

DB

[mwc]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:57 PM, DarkBishop said:

I would say the Golden rule is number one. Except for the God part. And your right. By adding one "O" to God you can "Love Good with your whole heart and love thy neighbor as thyself. 

 

(Segway warning) Interestingly enough I preached a sermon one time on the Golden Rule and how Jesus truly summed up the ten commandments in that one sentence. I'm sure most preachers did at some point. If one loves God with their whole heart they will keep the first 4 commandments. Because they all pertain to God. And if You love your neighbor as yourself that takes care of the other six. Not to steal, kill, covet not your neighbor etc. I thought it was pretty good at the time. Seems like a lifetime ago now. 

 

     Aren't these just all sort of the same thing?  Doing unto others would mean loving your neighbor as yourself just phrased differently.  The commandments are literal laws for a theocracy so itemizing them makes sense since the Jews are supposed to follow them but in this discussion I think it's worth pointing it out.

 

     Also, there's no need to salvage any of this from the bible since the whole idea precedes the bible in any number of cultures.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

On 6/13/2023 at 2:28 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

"Loving your neighbor" could go either way where the adultery one is concerned. 

     C'mon.  What's a hand-job between neighbors?  God says it's cool.

 

          mwc

 

[RankStranger]

4 hours ago, mwc said:

     Aren't these just all sort of the same thing?  Doing unto others would mean loving your neighbor as yourself just phrased differently.  The commandments are literal laws for a theocracy so itemizing them makes sense since the Jews are supposed to follow them but in this discussion I think it's worth pointing it out.

 

     Also, there's no need to salvage any of this from the bible since the whole idea precedes the bible in any number of cultures.

 

          mwc

 

 

I more or less agree with the bolded part (not the 'whole' idea, but definitely parts of it).  Any 'need' is ultimately decided by individuals.  But one thing the Bible has that its antecedents don't is the reverence of 2.6 billion people.  That ain't nothin'.  Even from a secular perspective, that's power.

 

[mwc]

49 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I more or less agree with the bolded part (not the 'whole' idea, but definitely parts of it).  Any 'need' is ultimately decided by individuals.  But one thing the Bible has that its antecedents don't is the reverence of 2.6 billion people.  That ain't nothin'.  Even from a secular perspective, that's power.

 

     And if the bible didn't exist?  Since the concept was already present and widespread it would still exist from another source or set of sources.  Those 2.6 billion people?  They'd be just fine quoting another version of the rule or even nothing at all.  It's doubtful many of those 2.6 billion actually *live* by that rule anyhow.

 

          mwc

 

[RankStranger]

6 minutes ago, mwc said:

     And if the bible didn't exist?  Since the concept was already present and widespread it would still exist from another source or set of sources.  Those 2.6 billion people?  They'd be just fine quoting another version of the rule or even nothing at all.  It's doubtful many of those 2.6 billion actually *live* by that rule anyhow.

 

          mwc

 

 

If the Bible didn't exist, I imagine these people would revere something else.  But it does exist, and they do revere the Bible- some more than others of course.  And some in different ways than others.  But just about any self-identifying Christian will respect the Bible, and will discuss morality, philosophy, etc. in terms of the Bible and related traditions.  Whatever you think of it, it's a powerful tradition.

[mwc]

Just now, RankStranger said:

 

If the Bible didn't exist, I imagine these people would revere something else.  But it does exist, and they do revere the Bible- some more than others of course.  And some in different ways than others.  But just about any self-identifying Christian will respect the Bible, and will discuss morality, philosophy, etc. in terms of the Bible and related traditions.  Whatever you think of it, it's a powerful tradition.

     And so were all the traditions prior to and even concurrent with the bible.  All the people revered them.  They just didn't have 2.6 billion people on the planet so the number is unimportant and meaningless.

 

     It's strange you want to ignore that people existed and those very people did exactly as you claim what makes xianity so special.  I just recently returned from Italy.  I went to Pompeii and Herculaneum.  You know what you could find?  The remnants of their religions in their houses (though all the best stuff is at the Naples Museum).  Should it surprise anyone they also respected their religions, discussed morality, philosophy and everything else through the lens of their religion?  Is that not what you think makes a powerful tradition?  That anyone does at any given point in time should be unsurprising.  It doesn't make their religion special whether that religion is the largest or smallest on earth.

 

     When it came to the golden rule there's nothing new here.  If you want to speak to a powerful tradition then thank the Egyptians since they're the earliest ones we have on record for some form of this particular one.  Without them, and those like them, the bible wouldn't have anything to say on the subject.

 

          mwc

 

[RankStranger]

24 minutes ago, mwc said:

     And so were all the traditions prior to and even concurrent with the bible.  All the people revered them.  They just didn't have 2.6 billion people on the planet so the number is unimportant and meaningless.

 

     It's strange you want to ignore that people existed and those very people did exactly as you claim what makes xianity so special.  I just recently returned from Italy.  I went to Pompeii and Herculaneum.  You know what you could find?  The remnants of their religions in their houses (though all the best stuff is at the Naples Museum).  Should it surprise anyone they also respected their religions, discussed morality, philosophy and everything else through the lens of their religion?  Is that not what you think makes a powerful tradition?  That anyone does at any given point in time should be unsurprising.  It doesn't make their religion special whether that religion is the largest or smallest on earth.

 

     When it came to the golden rule there's nothing new here.  If you want to speak to a powerful tradition then thank the Egyptians since they're the earliest ones we have on record for some form of this particular one.  Without them, and those like them, the bible wouldn't have anything to say on the subject.

 

          mwc

 

 

I'm not sure what you think I'm ignoring.  But yes, there is power in the reverence itself.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, RankStranger said:

But one thing the Bible has that its antecedents don't is the reverence of 2.6 billion people. 

Just because 2.6 billion people are still letting themselves be dooped by a myth thousands of years old doesn't make it true. The power they have is the same power a mob has. Just on a bigger scale. There is always power in numbers. That, unfortunately, is why the church is still successful at impeding human progression toward more lofty goals. Keeping us in the chains of superstition and fable. 

 

DB

[RankStranger]

Just now, DarkBishop said:

Just because 2.6 billion people are still letting themselves be dooped by a myth thousands of years old doesn't make it true. The power they have is the same power a mob has. Just on a bigger scale. There is always power in numbers.  <snipped>

 

You're absolutely right on this part.  I'm not claiming that this 'makes it true'.  I'm claiming that this makes it powerful.  Truth is a whole other discussion, and I'm not here to convince you of that.

[mwc]

5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

I'm not sure what you think I'm ignoring.  But yes, there is power in the reverence itself.

     Then why speak of power when all religions have had that reverence and power?

 

     I'm left to wonder why this is important.  If xianity co-opted the idea of the golden rule then so why is it so hard to admit it?  It was probably coined, in some form, about 2000 BCE.  So as far from xianity as xianity is from us.  It's a concept that far precedes this single religion, exists in the east and west, and would have survived without it.

 

      Maybe you should consider if xianity derives some of its power from things like this?  Xianity didn't give this concept its power but rather this concept helped give xianity some of its power that you're so rather fond of.

 

          mwc