Do you control what you believe?

[walterpthefirst]

I once took a double dose of Codeine, Ed.

 

Codeine - Wikipedia

 

Got quite a buzz out of it.

 

[pantheory]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Absolutes of the human condition......and if so, do they point to a positive/benefit to the condition or otherwise.  And then, what is the positive that is being illuminated....or negative.

 

 

 

H Edgarcito,

 

The human condition is primarily based upon subjective opinion. An optimist is inclined to see what he considers to be good things, and can often ignore what he considers to be negatives in this world. As for me, I consider myself generally an optimist in that I believe there is no such thing as a realist. Attitude often controls happiness  

 

Cheers

[pantheory]

7 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

I once took a double dose of Codeine, Ed.

 

Codeine - Wikipedia

 

Got quite a buzz out of it.

 

 

Guess in that way many would consider me as being boring in that I have said that anything that makes you feel "too good," should be avoided since it could be addicting. Of course drugs and alcohol are prime examples, but for some people religion can be another example IMHO.

[walterpthefirst]

[mwc]

18 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

This is fascinating mwc.  Thank you.

 

Despite what the Wiki article says about cognitive dissonance and the backfire effect, I submit that we should not give too much weight to the idea that we are the hapless victims of forces and compulsions that we are totally unaware of.  I agree that the picture must be more complex than that.  Blanket oversimplifications don't help here - I've learned that.

 

Our capacity for self-awareness must surely be latent in all of us and probably better developed in some - upbringing, culture and exposure to differing viewpoints having their due effect.  If this were not so, then how can the following examples be explained?

 

 

1.  (From the Wiki page.)

Belief persistence is frequently accompanied by intrapersonal cognitive processes. "When the decisive facts did at length obtrude themselves upon my notice," wrote the chemist Joseph Priestley, "it was very slowly, and with great hesitation, that I yielded to the evidence of my senses."

 

Priestley's mind was changed, not just by the evidence itself, but by a deeply personal process of reflection, comparison and realization.  At every stage he would have had to make choices.  Is that true or is it false?  Why does this contradict that?  And perhaps most tellingly... How do I feel about this new evidence?  If he couldn't clear the obstacle of his current emotional commitment to what he thought he knew, how could he possibly accept the new evidence that contradicted it?  He would have had to negotiate with himself and the act of doing that clearly demands the conscious and deliberate making of choices.

 

What happened in Priestley's case couldn't have been accidental or just the result of unconscious forces and compulsions leading him to change his mind.  He was not the unwilling victim of anything.  He was self-aware and made clearly thought-out decisions and choices.

 

 

2.

The presence of Ex-Christians in this forum who have experienced childhood indoctrination and who have since become apostates argues that they had the self-awareness to consciously choose to change their beliefs.  

 

 

3.

Three weeks ago, I became aware of where my emotions were pulling me.  If I had been unaware of what was happening within me its quite likely that I wouldn't be writing this post, from this particular p.o.v.  Instead I would be typing out something quite different, under the banner of Authentic Christian Believer.  So, I therefore submit that self-awareness and choice making must be pivotal when it comes to the issue of belief.

     Oh, no, certainly, I agree with you here.  We aren't simply hapless victims.  I don't want to give that impression.

 

     I simply replied to you because I had, at one time, read the book When Prophecy Fails and it is sort of a basis for things like cognitive dissonance and belief persistence.  As I was reading the thread I felt these things applied to your statements as exceptions to the rule you seemed to be using.

 

          mwc

 

[Edgarcito]

On 8/31/2023 at 2:39 PM, pantheory said:

 

H Edgarcito,

 

The human condition is primarily based upon subjective opinion. An optimist is inclined to see what he considers to be good things, and can often ignore what he considers to be negatives in this world. As for me, I consider myself generally an optimist in that I believe there is no such thing as a realist. Attitude often controls happiness  

 

Cheers

Doesn't sound like a bad idea that it was real for me.  I guess it could be given practice.  I find positives of the human condition are seemingly limited.... the innocence of children, innocence in general...a young person's success...or conversely, and elderly person's success at something new.  The positive human spirit that we see in various places.... sports, war, etc.  

 

Wasted time, lack of trying, not understanding that there is only one go around at life are negatives in my opinion.

 

So I tend to be more of an outcome-based person.  

 

 

[pantheory]

14 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Doesn't sound like a bad idea that it was real for me.  I guess it could be given practice.  I find positives of the human condition are seemingly limited.... the innocence of children, innocence in general...a young person's success...or conversely, and elderly person's success at something new.  The positive human spirit that we see in various places.... sports, war, etc.  

 

Wasted time, lack of trying, not understanding that there is only one go around at life are negatives in my opinion.

 

So I tend to be more of an outcome-based person.  

 

 

 

Howdy Edgarcito,

 

Yeah, finances say a lot, enough of course gives one more freedom. Also If one gets college educated then one will generally have a better life. But regardless of the circumstances many have not trained themselves to have a positive attitude.

 

I remember a cartoon years ago where a guy is being tortured in a dungeon, He is hanging on the wall from his hands a few feet higher than the floor. He tells his torturer who has a mask on, saying I've had a compressed spine all my life with a great deal of  pain;  your treatment has really helped.

 

Too much drugs and/or alcohol, little self control, little continued education, little compassion or empathy, unreasonable  plans, no reasonable goals, little effort, thinking it's necessary to cheat, having unreasonable beliefs without control -- are all  failings for those on a very contorted path toward happiness. 

 

 

[pantheory]

On 8/31/2023 at 3:19 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

Only the shadow knows !  Radio, circa 1930  to about 1952. In the late 40's and early 50's, at the beginning times of television, I heard a dozen or more "shadow" broadcasts. Radio was amazing in that there were a lot of individual mental visualizations generated, different from movies and television. To some extent, just as good for some IMHO.

[walterpthefirst]

That shadow is a kind of postcard from the Hiroshima of 1945, Pantheory.

 

It once belonged to a man who had his own beliefs about reality.

 

It reminds us that the brute facts of the objective reality we inhabit always have the final say.

 

No matter how much we believe otherwise.

 

 

[pantheory]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:02 AM, walterpthefirst said:

That shadow is a kind of postcard from the Hiroshima of 1945, Pantheory.

 

It once belonged to a man who had his own beliefs about reality.

 

It reminds us that the brute facts of the objective reality we inhabit always have the final say.

 

No matter how much we believe otherwise.

 

 

yeah, never saw that particular shadow picture before. Thanks for that