On knowledge v belief: who to trust?

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

If a Christian's faith is what's required, how much reality (that which is objectively true) to you have to reject? 

 

Diving right in, the Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God."

 

Putting aside that the word "word" is vague enough, so is "God". In that sense, "God" and "Word" are the same thing, right? So everyone who uses either word means one and the same thing. Doesn't make sense. 

 

Oh, but you must mean the God of the Bible. Ok, great. Then every time you say god you mean word, again not making sense semantically. It gets worse from there: which version of the bible, which god, jesus or 'god' god (and what about the so called Holy Spirit?) The battle over semantics is as eternal as hell itself. 

 

In my opinion, this opens the entire matter of God, Jesus, Hell, Heaven and the entire mess, which claims to know the Truth about Everything up for grabs. One only has to say he or she is a Christian to have immediate trust in these cultish, exclusive clubs called churches. In light of the pyramid schemes (as well as sexual predator hunting grounds) they seem to become, it isn't too hard to see the entire system as criminal, feeding off people's vulnerabilities and fears of death. 

 

What if that 'Word' was originally "TRUTH". That would make more sense to me right from the start. Truth, like God, is a spiritual, personal, sacred matter and I believe it comes from the Self Knowledge that xtianity destroys in its quest for power over other people's lives. Truth cannot be corralled, wheedled, manipulated or bent to shape one person's personal gain in this world yet every preacher, every church and going all the way back to the beginning of the what, 2nd or 3rd CENTURY of the modern Bible nothing has been spiritual about it. It's always been a tool to control the masses. 

 

If Truth is the Word, I can see God being in favor of it. There are few things more explicit about the Bible to me. I won't bore you with truths Jesus himself said over and over about the subject of it that you all mostly know. But Truth is apparent enough. Those who want to base their 'faith' in others do so at their own peril, as is evident in what the current state of their religion is going through in the USA. To us unbelievers though, and speaking for me personally, I'd rather trust my own eyes and ears and intuition than some crazy xtian right now. 

 

Thanks for your indulgence. 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

55 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

 

I'd rather trust my own eyes and ears and intuition than some crazy xtian right now. 

 

 

I probably don't have to guess what you think of the new Speaker of the House of Representatives in Washington.  I understand he looks to the Bible for his direction.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Indeed I did. Sneaky, aren't they? That ALSO encompasses everything I know about xtians. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

20 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

I probably don't have to guess what you think of the new Speaker of the House of Representatives in Washington

Indeed you don't. Not too hard to see the writing on the wall. 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, Weezer said:

 

I probably don't have to guess what you think of the new Speaker of the House of Representatives in Washington.  I understand he looks to the Bible for his direction.

 

Concerning U.S. presidents and religious beliefs, while no president has ever openly identified as being an atheist, Thomas Jefferson,, Abraham Lincoln, and William Howard Taft were speculated as being atheists by their opponents because of their statements and non-church-going attendance records.

[Edgarcito]

3 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

If a Christian's faith is what's required, how much reality (that which is objectively true) to you have to reject? 

 

Diving right in, the Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God."

 

Putting aside that the word "word" is vague enough, so is "God". In that sense, "God" and "Word" are the same thing, right? So everyone who uses either word means one and the same thing. Doesn't make sense. 

 

Oh, but you must mean the God of the Bible. Ok, great. Then every time you say god you mean word, again not making sense semantically. It gets worse from there: which version of the bible, which god, jesus or 'god' god (and what about the so called Holy Spirit?) The battle over semantics is as eternal as hell itself. 

 

In my opinion, this opens the entire matter of God, Jesus, Hell, Heaven and the entire mess, which claims to know the Truth about Everything up for grabs. One only has to say he or she is a Christian to have immediate trust in these cultish, exclusive clubs called churches. In light of the pyramid schemes (as well as sexual predator hunting grounds) they seem to become, it isn't too hard to see the entire system as criminal, feeding off people's vulnerabilities and fears of death. 

 

What if that 'Word' was originally "TRUTH". That would make more sense to me right from the start. Truth, like God, is a spiritual, personal, sacred matter and I believe it comes from the Self Knowledge that xtianity destroys in its quest for power over other people's lives. Truth cannot be corralled, wheedled, manipulated or bent to shape one person's personal gain in this world yet every preacher, every church and going all the way back to the beginning of the what, 2nd or 3rd CENTURY of the modern Bible nothing has been spiritual about it. It's always been a tool to control the masses. 

 

If Truth is the Word, I can see God being in favor of it. There are few things more explicit about the Bible to me. I won't bore you with truths Jesus himself said over and over about the subject of it that you all mostly know. But Truth is apparent enough. Those who want to base their 'faith' in others do so at their own peril, as is evident in what the current state of their religion is going through in the USA. To us unbelievers though, and speaking for me personally, I'd rather trust my own eyes and ears and intuition than some crazy xtian right now. 

 

Thanks for your indulgence. 

 

What if I based truth in you please ma'am.....what should I expect.  Thanks.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

15 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

What if I based truth in you please ma'am.....what should I expect.  Thanks.

I never asked you or anyone else to look to me for truth. And I never would. What made you think I claimed to have exclusive knowledge of the Truth? Even if I thought I did I know it's my own truth, not something I need to 'sell' to someone else to 'believe' it.  

[Edgarcito]

12 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

I never asked you or anyone else to look to me for truth. And I never would. What made you think I claimed to have exclusive knowledge of the Truth? Even if I thought I did I know it's my own truth, not something I need to 'sell' to someone else to 'believe' it.  

It seems you would wish to reject the cultish group (objective reality), as missing the mark.  Should we dismiss you just the same?  It was the reason I asked.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

If you want to reject my reality, of course you are free to do so. As I said, I don't need to sell it to you or anyone else. But christians seem to do it all the time. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this problem of 'belief', would we? Unless, of course, you want to argue about who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. 

 

Don't 'believe' me all you want. I could care less. But you're skirting the entire point I was making; Truth is subjective. And it is individual, personal and intimate. It doesn't need to be sold to someone else to believe it. Moreover, it's not static, it's dynamic and liberating. 

 

I'm not your savior, guru or teacher. Find your own truth. If it's the bible, great. But I've been there, done that, have the Tee shirt, and am done with xtianity. It didn't work. 

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

If you want to reject my reality, of course you are free to do so. As I said, I don't need to sell it to you or anyone else. But christians seem to do it all the time. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this problem of 'belief', would we? Unless, of course, you want to argue about who is 'right' and who is 'wrong'. 

 

Don't 'believe' me all you want. I could care less. But you're skirting the entire point I was making; Truth is subjective. And it is individual, personal and intimate. It doesn't need to be sold to someone else to believe it. Moreover, it's not static, it's dynamic and liberating. 

 

I'm not your savior, guru or teacher. Find your own truth. If it's the bible, great. But I've been there, done that, have the Tee shirt, and am done with xtianity. It didn't work. 

I care.  In that, I'm an advocate for searching.  Let me help you....it is subjective by all objective knowledge applied.  NO ONE knows the answer.  Not the belief crowd, not the knowledge crowd.  You will fail someone, I will, believers will, non-believers....in their "truth".  No one gets out knowing anything other than they failed others....in their ignorance despite their adamant, intimate truth.  So, yes, you do you, but throwing spears at the cult is not a good start.....  I'm sorry it didn't work, I truly hope you find something that helps you live your entire life fully.  Thanks.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

Why should I believe you care? All the rest of what you said is irrelevant. And sounds phony. 

 

That said, xtians like you always sound phony. If you care, why aren't you out DOING something about 'caring'? GIVE UP YOUR COMPUTER, where you think your excellent talking skills will 'save souls' and go prove you 'care'? Why don't you use your church, which sits empty most of the week to offer a homeless shelter? How about offering to staff a rape crisis line? How about a child abuse hotline? Maybe it would be a better use of your time if you helped weed out the sexual predators in your church. 

 

It's so easy to talk, isn't it? What's that Bible verse about 'faith without works' again? I'm sure you can quote it, and blabbing isn't works. 

[Edgarcito]

18 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Why should I believe you care? All the rest of what you said is irrelevant. And sounds phony. 

 

That said, xtians like you always sound phony. If you care, why aren't you out DOING something about 'caring'? GIVE UP YOUR COMPUTER, where you think your excellent talking skills will 'save souls' and go prove you 'care'? Why don't you use your church, which sits empty most of the week to offer a homeless shelter? How about offering to staff a rape crisis line? How about a child abuse hotline? Maybe it would be a better use of your time if you helped weed out the sexual predators in your church. 

 

It's so easy to talk, isn't it? What's that Bible verse about 'faith without works' again? I'm sure you can quote it, and blabbing isn't works. 

Before we continue I would ask that you please complete the following survey questions:

 

1) Do you have blue, green, or purple hair?

2) Are you a "strong, independent, powerful" woman?

3) Do you believe in Barney the Purple Dinosaur's mantra, "we love everyone"?

 

TIA...

 

 

[Edgarcito]

To your point....helping someone.  I just helped you.  I gave you THE ANSWER that people, including me spend years trying to understand.  And I gave it to you in one small paragraph.  Does that not count for caring/belief through action?  You remember, faith and works??

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

23 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

1) Do you have blue, green, or purple hair?

2) Are you a "strong, independent, powerful" woman?

3) Do you believe in Barney the Purple Dinosaur's mantra, "we love everyone"?

This is childish and defensive and didn't address my issues with you. So it's deflection and didn't work. Otherwise it's meant to provoke an angry response and it didn't work. Xtians do this all the time. Very ineffective and funny. 

 

17 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

To your point....helping someone.  I just helped you.  I gave you THE ANSWER that people, including me spend years trying to understand.  And I gave it to you in one small paragraph.  Does that not count for caring/belief through action?  You remember, faith and works??

 

Oh yes! You really helped me!!! No, it's not caring. It's lazy. 

[Edgarcito]

10 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

This is childish and defensive and didn't address my issues with you. So it's deflection and didn't work. Otherwise it's meant to provoke an angry response and it didn't work. Xtians do this all the time. Very ineffective and funny. 

 

 

Oh yes! You really helped me!!! No, it's not caring. It's lazy. 

I was trying to be funny.  

 

No, I've been on this site since about 2007 if memory serves....debating, cussing, you name it.  Ask anyone here if I'm not giving you the straight poop.

 

Thx.

[pantheory]

Yes, Moxierflux66, I know Edgarcito to be a good and honest man, who I believe is trying to help everyone, not necessarily by religion. He knows me to be a good and honest man also as a complete atheist scientist.  We always have friendly conversations, and btw, we both enjoy a beer from time to time

 

And also, I welcome you to this forum. We have lots of friendly folk here so I hope you also find some happiness here,  Cheers !

[pantheory]

6 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

If a Christian's faith is what's required, how much reality (that which is objectively true) to you have to reject? 

 

Diving right in, the Bible says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God."

 

Putting aside that the word "word" is vague enough, so is "God". In that sense, "God" and "Word" are the same thing, right? So everyone who uses either word means one and the same thing. Doesn't make sense. 

 

Oh, but you must mean the God of the Bible. Ok, great. Then every time you say god you mean word, again not making sense semantically. It gets worse from there: which version of the bible, which god, jesus or 'god' god (and what about the so called Holy Spirit?) The battle over semantics is as eternal as hell itself. 

 

In my opinion, this opens the entire matter of God, Jesus, Hell, Heaven and the entire mess, which claims to know the Truth about Everything up for grabs. One only has to say he or she is a Christian to have immediate trust in these cultish, exclusive clubs called churches. In light of the pyramid schemes (as well as sexual predator hunting grounds) they seem to become, it isn't too hard to see the entire system as criminal, feeding off people's vulnerabilities and fears of death. 

 

What if that 'Word' was originally "TRUTH". That would make more sense to me right from the start. Truth, like God, is a spiritual, personal, sacred matter and I believe it comes from the Self Knowledge that xtianity destroys in its quest for power over other people's lives. Truth cannot be corralled, wheedled, manipulated or bent to shape one person's personal gain in this world yet every preacher, every church and going all the way back to the beginning of the what, 2nd or 3rd CENTURY of the modern Bible nothing has been spiritual about it. It's always been a tool to control the masses. 

 

If Truth is the Word, I can see God being in favor of it. There are few things more explicit about the Bible to me. I won't bore you with truths Jesus himself said over and over about the subject of it that you all mostly know. But Truth is apparent enough. Those who want to base their 'faith' in others do so at their own peril, as is evident in what the current state of their religion is going through in the USA. To us unbelievers though, and speaking for me personally, I'd rather trust my own eyes and ears and intuition than some crazy xtian right now. 

 

Thanks for your indulgence. 

 

 

Of course what we read is the English translation of the Bible, probably the original was in Greek or Hebrew, etc. But I think such writings were meant to be nebulous to some extent so that the reader can put his own thoughts into it. Of course it's all B.S. , so there's no reason to put much thought into the details of such obvious ambiguity IMHO. 

 

As to belief, believe nothing that you hear, little of what you read, and only half of what you see -- as the saying goes.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, moxieflux66 said:

To your point....helping someone.  I just helped you.  I gave you THE ANSWER that people, including me spend years trying to understand.

Forgive me but...THE ANSWER to what, exactly? What I got out of what you said was that no one knows the truth (or the truth about God?). And that all we know is how much we let people down in our lives. So truth is only subjective anyway, my point entirely. You can't know much of anything more than you ARE ALLOWED to know your own self. Therefore 'god' is 'in here' not 'out there' and everyone must find their own path, of course 'failing people'. What about failing yourself? Shouldn't that be more a priority in life than blindly stumbling along 'saving people' from themselves (ie souls)? 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

Of course what we read is the English translation of the Bible, probably the original was in Greek or Hebrew, etc.

Yes, but even a cursory search on Google, asking how many versions of the Bible there are brings to you anything BUT a solid number. The top of the page, gives the number of 150, including word-for-word, meaning to meaning, and paraphrased. WHICH ONE?? Then there's the matter of translations to other languages. Several years ago I saw the number 100 some odd thousand versions of the Bible worldwide. Calvary church has its own version. In the U.S. it seems to be a hot business, this translating the business stuff. 

 

[pantheory]

2 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Yes, but even a cursory search on Google, asking how many versions of the Bible there are brings to you anything BUT a solid number. The top of the page, gives the number of 150, including word-for-word, meaning to meaning, and paraphrased. WHICH ONE?? Then there's the matter of translations to other languages. Several years ago I saw the number 100 some odd thousand versions of the Bible worldwide. Calvary church has its own version. In the U.S. it seems to be a hot business, this translating the business stuff. 

 

 

I no longer have interest in any religions aside from historical related information. I have one of the original King James Bibles, folio size. It was printed in 1640, I think it was the second edition of it. It's written in old English so it's pretty interesting to look at. It is in fair condition and has nearly all of its original pages.

 

Cheers

[walterpthefirst]

17 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

It seems you would wish to reject the cultish group (objective reality), as missing the mark.  Should we dismiss you just the same?  It was the reason I asked.  

 

It's standard procedure in this forum for claim makers to be asked to support their claim with evidence.

 

 

However, in the case of Edgarcito's quoted sentence, its not clear what he is claiming about the relationship between the cultish group and objective reality.  Is he saying that the beliefs of the cultish group are objective reality?  Is he saying that the existence of the cultish group is an objective reality?  Or is he saying something else?

 

By putting the words objective reality in parentheses ( ) after the words cultish group he is clearly linking them.

 

But how?

 

Could you please explain what you meant about the relationship between these two things, Edgarcito?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

[Edgarcito]

15 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Forgive me but...THE ANSWER to what, exactly? What I got out of what you said was that no one knows the truth (or the truth about God?). And that all we know is how much we let people down in our lives. So truth is only subjective anyway, my point entirely. You can't know much of anything more than you ARE ALLOWED to know your own self. Therefore 'god' is 'in here' not 'out there' and everyone must find their own path, of course 'failing people'. What about failing yourself? Shouldn't that be more a priority in life than blindly stumbling along 'saving people' from themselves (ie souls)? 

The answer to you inquiry.....who to trust.  Yes, truth is subjective to the individual.  Yes, science can't answer all the questions.  Yes, religion can't either.  I didn't advocate failing yourself did I.  I advocated searching for yourself and being comfortable with what you've found and who you want to be.  Hope that helps.  Thx.

 

Edit:  Problem is...despite how much we might server ourselves to the height of our capability, we will still fail.  I promise you; the worst feeling is saying the wrong thing to someone you truly love.  Hence...forgiveness, grace, etc.  Thx.

[walterpthefirst]

Yes, truth is subjective to the individual.

 

 

No, this cannot be correct.

 

It is true up to a point, but we don't get to chose how reality affects us.  

 

There is no subjectivity involved in how gravity affects us.  It is an objective truth that gravity affects us all in the same way.  But, if you want to dispute this then please jump off a high building and try to choose not to be affected by gravity.  Your ability to choose will not persuade gravity to bend to you will.

 

Therefore, there must be a greater, external truth that we are part of and which has no regard for our personal choices.  There are certain indisputable 'brute facts' about reality that our subjectivity must bend to.  To believe otherwise is simply self-delusion.

 

The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had their beliefs about personal truth and subjectivity destroyed in an instant by the brute forces of thermonuclear reality.

 

 

 

 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

Problem is...despite how much we might server ourselves to the height of our capability, we will still fail.  I promise you; the worst feeling is saying the wrong thing to someone you truly love.  Hence...forgiveness, grace, etc.  Thx.

Hm. Sounds like you think I have no experience failing or hurting people (accidentally??). Still don't get your point but ok. Also sounds like you harbor a whole lot of guilt over failing/hurting people. You focus on those two things a lot. I do not. If I've unintentionally hurt someone OF COURSE I apologize. Doesn't sound like a mysterious process to me. 

[Edgarcito]

30 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Hm. Sounds like you think I have no experience failing or hurting people (accidentally??). Still don't get your point but ok. Also sounds like you harbor a whole lot of guilt over failing/hurting people. You focus on those two things a lot. I do not. If I've unintentionally hurt someone OF COURSE I apologize. Doesn't sound like a mysterious process to me. 

If you had the entire truth, what would you do with it....