Anyone attend a mega-church?

[Wertbag]

Here in New Zealand our biggest churches would probably fit in the lobby of some of the American mega-churches.  Has anyone attended one of these gigantic places?

I can't imagine what a production such a show must be.  Parking for a thousand cars, lighting, sound, cameras, I'm guessing a fleet of ushers and support staff.  Do they have allocated seating?  Do you have to wait in giant queues to get in?  Do they have security check points or security guards onsite?  I have the mental image of a big music concert and all the planning and work that goes into that, but repeated weekly.

I know some Christians see those types of places as worshipping capitalism, while others say they love the atmosphere.  

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

7 hours ago, Wertbag said:

Here in New Zealand our biggest churches would probably fit in the lobby of some of the American mega-churches.  Has anyone attended one of these gigantic places?

I can't imagine what a production such a show must be.  Parking for a thousand cars, lighting, sound, cameras, I'm guessing a fleet of ushers and support staff.  Do they have allocated seating?  Do you have to wait in giant queues to get in?  Do they have security check points or security guards onsite?  I have the mental image of a big music concert and all the planning and work that goes into that, but repeated weekly.

I know some Christians see those types of places as worshipping capitalism, while others say they love the atmosphere.  

Hi Wertbag! I have not attended church at all for too many years to remember but back in the 70's when I grew up in the Los Angeles area I once went to a place called the Crystal Cathedral, hosted by the Reverend Robert Shuller. There was a huge amphitheater that seated most but the parking lot was a drive-in type (when drive in theaters were popular). You could use one of the speakers to put in your car window and listen to the service. Which is where we heard it. Never saw the inside of the place but the outside was very sparkly and shiny! 

And that's about all I remember of it. 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@Wertbag

 

Yes

No

Sort of?

No

 

The ones I've attended are almost uniformally sprawling campuses with multiple entrances and exits.  Even though they're called "megachurches" they are typically a mega-size "home" church with some other extremely large satellite campuses and then a smattering of newer campuses that are either small or rent gymnasiums as they grow attendence large enough to build another big campus.

 

Even the larger satellite locations will have overflow auditoriums.  The speaker is usually based in the home campus and beamed into the satellites.  There is a local campus pastor and the music is with a local worship team.  Oftentimes even the overflow auditoriums have live music.  So one single campus may be hosting 3 auditoriums, each with their own live band/music auditorium pastor, and then projecting the actual sermon from the home campus.  This is not to mention the kids church which is the same model, just adjusted for the age range.  (usually high school, middle school, upper elementary, lower elementary, infants/toddlers).

 

It an absolutely enormous undertaking.  I know some of them have cooking teams, volunteers whose sole job is to manage the kitchens to feed the various other volunteer teams, such as parking, greeting, sound, technical, worship, children's . . . etc...  Their budgets reflect the size and scope of the operation.

 

Seating is basically first come first serve, though you have to wait until the auditorium empties from the previous sermon.  It's not like smaller churches, there may be as many as 5 sermons on a single Sunday.  3 morning sermons & 2 in the afternoon.  There is often a large pool of people hanging out in the concourse and staff are there to help guide people to open seating.  Once the auditorium is full then you have to choose an overflow.  Some people go directly to overflows because the music is usually not as a loud and the venue size more on a par with typical size baptist or methodist church (keep in mind I'm talking about a single overflow auditorium is already the size of an average church).  The overflows usually don't contain stadium seating, but the main auditorium has stadium seating of some form.

A couple of churches may reserve the first two rows for guests, but in my experience that was the outlier.

 

No security I've ever seen and certainly no guards.  Though I know they deploy people as "security" but it's entirely not obvious.

 

It is definitely something to behold and you can't help but appreciate the logistics that goes into making it a near seamless experience every Sunday, like clockwork, with volunteers.

 

Also, there is an amusing tendency to have a coffee shop inside the church.  Not like attached to the church, entirely encapsulated within the church, usually a part of, or just off the main concourse.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Also, everything in the main auditorium is usually projected into the concourse via large tv's on the walls.  Many a time I didn't want to deal with loud music or we were at a smaller location with 1 or 0 overflow auditoriums, so we would watch on a bench in the concourse while the kiddo was in kid's church.  The wife and I came to prefer the concourse experience because there was no pressure to stand or even look engaged.  You could read your phone in peace and clue in if you heard people start laughing or something.

They truly have something for everyone, so long as it involves at least passing reference to Jesus.  Doctrine was never on the menu.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, Krowb said:

They truly have something for everyone, so long as it involves at least passing reference to Jesus.  Doctrine was never on the menu.

Wow. Times have changed so much since I was paying attention! What a racket church has become! 

I was going to ask what kind of sermon could possibly be preached that would have such a 'something for everyone' approach??? Then you answered, "Doctrine was never on the menu". Simply remarkable how marketable Jesus has become, eh? 

[Wertbag]

1 hour ago, Krowb said:

They truly have something for everyone, so long as it involves at least passing reference to Jesus.  Doctrine was never on the menu.

So kind of progressive, watered down, universalist type Christianity?  Appeal to everyone by being careful to not exclude anyone?

[◊ Krowb ◊]

Eh, not really.  I'd call the several I've been involved with over the years a kind of Baptist-lite.  All believe in immersion baptism as a testament of faith, they all believe in "once saved always saved", strongly focused on mission work, but usually the mission field is their local vicinity and nearby cities/towns (to plant new campuses) as opposed to worldwide missions, and believe in sola scriptura (but it won't be phrased that way).  All the pastors I've known in these types of churches straight up admit they may not have it right and it's not a church's place to judge other denominations so long as they have scriptural evidence for their beliefs, but as for this particular mega-church - they believe the Spirit leads them to a particular conclusion on the issue.

 

So I wouldn't say progressive Christianity in any sense considering they're pretty darn conservative in their social views, but they tended to make it clear that is god's place to judge, not theirs.  They can lead by example and call out "sin" but what is to be gained by condemning the person?  Let the Spirit convict a person.  I remember in one sermon the pastor said "Christians get too holier-than-thou when they sit in judgement, only Christ has the right to sit in judgment of another". Which tracts with their general acknowledgement their interpretation may be wrong. It's an interesting mix of compassion for sure.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Just prior to Covid, I decided to take a year away from the pharmaceutical industry, and went back to my old trade as an electrician.  I ended up wiring up a couple of these satellite churches to which @Krowb refers.  The main campus, where the head pastor held court, was a couple of towns over; and he was the only one authorized to deliver a sermon.  The associate pastors who officiated the satellites were only allowed to add commentary to the sermon if they had prior approval from the head pastor. 

 

Tithes and offerings were also handled through the main campus.  Each satellite sent its weekly harvest in to be distributed at the discretion of the head pastor. 

 

The walls in all of the hallways, entrances, and main concourse were covered in some kind of weird pop-art that was obviously meant to appeal to the millennial and gen-z crowd; and, of course the praise and worship portion of the service was more of a rock show than anything U2 ever performed. 

 

What astounded me the most, though, was that the lighting system in just one of the satellites cost more than the 4 mortgages I've paid in my lifetime combined.  

[◊ Weezer ◊]

This discussion raises a question for me.  Are most of us, and the people coming to this forum, from hard line doctrine, more cult like churches?  Churches that are more guilt producing?  It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

This discussion raises a question for me.  Are most of us, and the people coming to this forum, from hard line doctrine, more cult like churches?  Churches that are more guilt producing?  It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

Also, what would become of them if they had to pay taxes like a business? Big crash and burn I'd suspect. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

This discussion raises a question for me.  Are most of us, and the people coming to this forum, from hard line doctrine, more cult like churches?  Churches that are more guilt producing?  It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

I am, for sure.  However, the church I grew up in, that used to be so hard line/cult-like, is now much more progressive and feely-goody.  They even have a coffee shop exactly where Krowb said it would be.  An old college buddy of mine is now the head pastor; and I can tell he took some of Dr. Hackett's lectures pretty seriously (Dr. Hackett lobbied for smoking sections in churches; but the ASSemblies of Gawd rejected the idea with a strong rebuke).  Last I heard, the church was considering leaving the AoG and becoming non-denominational. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 minutes ago, moxieflux66 said:

Also, what would become of them if they had to pay taxes like a business? Big crash and burn I'd suspect. 

I doubt it.  More likely they would just cut out the extraneous, less-popular ministries like feeding the homeless or inner-city work.  You know, the stuff jesus was all about doing.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I doubt it.  More likely they would just cut out the extraneous, less-popular ministries like feeding the homeless or inner-city work.  You know, the stuff jesus was all about doing.

Oh. I never heard they did those kinds of things. Haven't heard of them in years. 

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

This discussion raises a question for me.  Are most of us, and the people coming to this forum, from hard line doctrine, more cult like churches?  Churches that are more guilt producing?  It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

This is more like the kind of on base chapel services I grew up with. Just touchy feely enough for the military, more inclusive (by necessity, of course) and easier to tolerate. Much more digestible for kids too. But much less memorable (thankfully). 

[AnonSan]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

This discussion raises a question for me.  Are most of us, and the people coming to this forum, from hard line doctrine, more cult like churches?  Churches that are more guilt producing?  It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

 

From my end, I would say that my family's church is a cult--  a very deceptive one, as they advertise themselves that they are the one true church saving everyone corrupted by the division caused by denominational fractions. We have our own version of the Bible and the books we buy are published in-house from the Living Stream Ministry (LSM). The books venerate the church founder's teachings even though he departed from the living realm over 20 years ago. To participate in our services every member has to buy the books for the weekly readings. Church members do not immediately introduce the reading material, books, and their Bible to potential recruits/new members until they are committed to entering into the rabbit hole. 

 

For a long time, I did not realize I belonged to a church cult until I completely stepped away from it. I recall sermons during my teen years that to receive God that "we must deny ourselves in order for the Lord to come through and enjoy Him in one Spirit." In other words, you cannot be yourself and become a void of yourself and autonomy. They often guilted us in hanging our with our worldly friends (to play videogames or going to the movies) instead of attending the youth meetings during the weekends. My dad once guilted me from hanging out with my then boyfriend, now husband to an amusement park over Sunday service despite my good attendance with the family. Basically, the end goal is to be eternally committed to a lifestyle revolving around the church. Questioning or criticizing the church's founder is of devil's temptation to disrupt the church. We were discouraged to think critically/be introspective and accept the church's teachings as is. 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

11 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

Also, what would become of them if they had to pay taxes like a business? Big crash and burn I'd suspect.

 

Highly doubtful.  At their level we're not longer talking about churches comprised of lay people, but very savvy corporations with CEOs and CFOs sitting on various financing and fund boards.  They know how to budget and strategize.  Being "led by the Spirit" ain't enough in today's world.

 

11 hours ago, moxieflux66 said:

I doubt it.  More likely they would just cut out the extraneous, less-popular ministries like feeding the homeless or inner-city work.  You know, the stuff jesus was all about doing.

 

@TheRedneckProfessor has it right.  Those would be among the first items cut. 

 

I've seen one mega-church become a shell of it former self.  It never metastasized into a multi-location mega-church and has been steadily cannibalized.  They are still pretty financially sound.

 

Two of the mega-churches I'm pretty familiar with are very financially sound. One in particular:

1. Budget is a percentage of previous year's budget.  (very conservative ratio).  This provides literally 10's of millions in unallocated funds per year to be deployed strategically.
2. No debt. If god wants it done, he'll provide the funds.  You also have to keep in mind that at their size and scale they are also very well connected politically.  So zoning and permitting issues are not a problem.  Even if you need a two lane road turned into a four-lane divided highway and extra light signals - consider it done.
3. Consistent with the "we may not get this right" approach.  Pastor requires unanimity among the the strategic development team, financing team, and other pastors he trusts, before engaging in a project.  God should make it clear what is to done and the pastor/others may be letting their hubris overpower the "small, still voice".
4. Lastly, this church has taken a playbook out of higher education and maintains essentially an endowment, complete with its own team of business leaders to manage it.

These churches have a product that sells well in the current market, they are large and sophisticated enough to pivot with the times and catch (if not lead) trends in the industry.  These entities are better classified as businesses than churches.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Not to mention, many of these churches also maintain other businesses associated with, but not directly linked financially, to the church itself.  My old church also owns and operates a senior living facility, a K-12 private school, a walk-in medical facility, a food bank, and several other small businesses.  All of these feed funds into the church treasury; so even if tithes and offerings come up short for a couple of months, the church still has other financial resources at its disposal.

 

When I was in college (the first time), there was a megachurch in town that ran its own christian radio station.  On Friday nights they had a christian "alternative" show that played all the popular alt/punk bands--Mortal, Scaterd Few, Swirling Eddie's, The 77s, and even a bit of U2 now and again.  The church allowed us kids to hang out in/around the studio during the show; and me and a couple of buddies even got to do some regular spots on air for the 6 people who actually listened to the show.  Ah, those crazy 90s... baggy jeans, Dr. Seuss hats, and the rebirth of tie-dye.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

14 hours ago, Weezer said:

It seems like these mega churches are more into the feel good stuff.   It will be interesting to see how long they last.

 

It's definitely the feel good stuff.  The wife remarked one time a sermon was a very good self-help lesson sprinkled with unrelated bible verses to just keep the "Jesus" thing involved.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

2 hours ago, Krowb said:

These churches have a product that sells well in the current market, they are large and sophisticated enough to pivot with the times and catch (if not lead) trends in the industry.  These entities are better classified as businesses than churches.

I only had a few months of small business management classes but it's sobering to see how well 'the church' has adopted the basics of business. What a racket! It appears to me It has become Revelations' Great Whore of Babylon. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Gospel or not, I'm just happy to see churches finally obeying the voice of the True Profit.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

The biggest one I went to briefly was in Portland, and while it was quite large (in a domed building), I wouldn't call it a mega. The pastor is labeled a "Pastor's pastor", meaning he grooms them to become better at church business. Tithing was mandatory, and any questions would elicit a "You'd probably be happier somewhere else" (We'd be happier with you somewhere else). The pastor wore several gold/platinum and jeweled rings on various fingers. His preaching if you can call it that was often full of holes that he didn't want to hear about. Ask a question, here talk to my lackey who will take your name and not get back to you. It was a way to make a ton of money off the gullible, nothing more. And believers ATE IT UP. 

 

One day a small group of guys were outside with placards berating this church for worldliness, and they preached a toe-the-line with Jesus gospel. That was more my taste, and I encouraged them to keep at it and never returned. 

 

I did go to visit a large Pentecostal church in Hove England once, and that was an amazing experience spiritually. I felt things there I'd never experienced, but had seen in movies about Shakers and Quakers in the old days. Those names came from their hands and bodies trembling violently as they felt energy course through them. I still don't know what to make of it, although I know now it wasn't the god of the bible. At the time it sure seemed to confirm that it was all real. Little did I know I'd be deconverted 10 years after.

 

[◊ Krowb ◊]

At this point there is a growing distinction between the megachurches of old, usually a single location with a charismatic leader (and oftentimes grifter) and employing a strong online/tv component vs. the major multi-location megachurches.

 

One of these churches I attended was very smart regarding sermons around tithing - no pastor directly affiliated with the church ever gave a sermon on tithing.  They relied on guest speakers from other churches to do that for them.  It's a very clever tactic.  Of course, you can find online videos of the pastor giving a sermon on tithing, but never at his own mega-church.  Also, another smart thing this church does is it devotes one Sunday a year to recap money raised and spent.  As expected for an operation its size, the video production quality and slides are very slick.  One year in particular the pastor was so proud, because of their ratio system, they were able to provide $8MM towards victims of a hurricane in Louisiana without having to look at budget because the unallocated was so large.  As @TheRedneckProfessor said, this church also runs soup kitchens, career training/job centers, medical facilities, a college now, a pastoral college, etc . . . 

 

Unlike the megachurch pastors of old, this new breed neither flaunts wealth, nor do they do all the preaching.  The larger the operation becomes the less likely it is for the head pastor to preach.  Befitting a true CEO, they are more engaged with the planning and managing than the preaching.

 

As a side point, it's not god's blessings on the church, the focus was on you, as the congregant, are the ones making this happen.  God works . . . through people.  People make it happen; god provides the opportunities.

[☆ moxieflux66 ☆]

On 12/1/2023 at 7:43 PM, Fuego said:

The biggest one I went to briefly was in Portland, and while it was quite large (in a domed building), I wouldn't call it a mega. The pastor is labeled a "Pastor's pastor", meaning he grooms them to become better at church business. Tithing was mandatory, and any questions would elicit a "You'd probably be happier somewhere else" (We'd be happier with you somewhere else). The pastor wore several gold/platinum and jeweled rings on various fingers. His preaching if you can call it that was often full of holes that he didn't want to hear about. Ask a question, here talk to my lackey who will take your name and not get back to you. It was a way to make a ton of money off the gullible, nothing more. And believers ATE IT UP. 

 

One day a small group of guys were outside with placards berating this church for worldliness, and they preached a toe-the-line with Jesus gospel. That was more my taste, and I encouraged them to keep at it and never returned. 

 

I did go to visit a large Pentecostal church in Hove England once, and that was an amazing experience spiritually. I felt things there I'd never experienced, but had seen in movies about Shakers and Quakers in the old days. Those names came from their hands and bodies trembling violently as they felt energy course through them. I still don't know what to make of it, although I know now it wasn't the god of the bible. At the time it sure seemed to confirm that it was all real. Little did I know I'd be deconverted 10 years after.

 

They should all pay taxes. 

 

We are going to get a deluge at about 0400 hours tonight. Buckle up! 

[pantheory]

When I was from ages 6 to maybe 12, I used to attend a Methodist Temple with my Grandmother. The church had a capacity of maybe 2,000, with maybe 500 attending most Sundays. The church was huge, maybe ten stories high in appearance, I seldom went to church with my mother, father, and sisters. The sermons were always common- sense, love, peace, charity, etc.  While most of the other kids were going to Sunday school at that age, I went to church with my grandmother with mostly older adults and few if any children like myself. The religion was almost the opposite of evangelism. The minister never talked loud or forceful, never about hell, and rarely ever talked about heaven. Living a good, healthy, clean, and happy life, while helping others,  was usually the general theme of most of the sermons.

 

There was no big production of any kind to it that I could see or knew of. The minister had a microphone to talk into. He had a big Bible and notes in front of him to refer to.  We had a large songbook and always sang 3-5 songs while there was an organ playing. There were a few volunteer ushers that were usually different people every Sunday. As far as I knew it was never a big deal, just a simple, calm, soft spoken sermon  -- but not always by the same minister. And the parts of the Bible and its interpretations usually related to the New Testament, and occasionally the most logical and poetic parts of the old Testament. It seemed to me to be a group of happy, friendly, upper class, very well-dressed people because of its location. There were few if any minority races that went there probably because of its location in a very-wealthy part of Los Angeles.

 

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

17 minutes ago, pantheory said:

 

The sermons were always common- sense, love, peace, charity, etc.  While most of the other kids were going to Sunday school at that age, I went to church with my grandmother with mostly older adults and few if any children like myself. The religion was almost the opposite of evangelism. The minister never talked loud or forceful, never about hell, and rarely ever talked about heaven. Living a good, healthy, clean, and happy life, while helping others,  was usually the general theme of most of the sermons.

 

Those were what our church called "liberal" churches that preached a "watered down" social gospel that would not get you into heaven.  To get you into heaven you had to go throught the holy rituals.

 

I was in the Crystal Cathedral years ago in California, but it was on a tour of the area and there wasn't a service going on.  I remember thinking the glass building woud not be practical in Kansas.  Even dangerous in a hail storm.