Why Do Xians Debate with Non-Xians?

[Checkmate]

Hey TK421,

 

It was my understanding anyone posting in a Debating with Christians was interested not only debate but debate with Christians. I am here to learn from and exchange ideas with those who choose to engage me.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

 

Ah, yes. But there IS a distinct difference betwixt DEBATING and EVANGELISM. And you know as well as I do, that EVANGELISM is your true goal.

 

You could debate any subject in the world here, and YET you choose to debate how CORRECT your faith is. Sounds like evangelism to me. You already told me in another post that it is your hope to convince us that YOU are right about Jesus.

 

Look BTR, I don't mind your debating/evangelism here. Apparently no one else does either. It's good sport. Iron sharpening iron and all that. You are correct. You WERE invited here.

 

I just would like YOU to recognize that what you're doing is self-willed and in contradiction with YOUR scriptures. And if you think I'm WRONG in THIS assessment, THEN PROVE IT.

[Isak The Newt]

So you say you accept if people would start knocking on your door to tell you about Islam, Hinduism, Paganism, Buddhism or Judaism? What kind of response will those people get from you, when they put leaflets on your car, spam you mailbox, post messages on a Christian forum? Why is it that we get BLOCKED when we join the Christian forums? We don’t get to tell, talk, discuss, evangelize our beliefs to YOU, and you say “Oh, poor me, bah, bah, the evil atheist doesn’t want to listen to me, they’re so unfair.” while your own kind blocks and stops us from saying anything.

 

You should be glad that we actually do believe in FREE SPEECH, which you obviously don’t, and neither does your brother in Christ. You believe in Free Speech for You to preach to Us, but not Free Speech in Us preach to You!

O.O (speechless) why didn't i inherit the good debating skills, all i got were the argumentive genes O.o (yaaay genetics and evolution!)

[TJR666]

Actually I am interested in hearing your story. If whole story is not possible because of length, please pick some major sources that share heavier weights. Not urgent of course. Take your time.

Thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Will do as time permits.

 

TJR666

[Vixentrox]

Xtians need to justify to themselves why they put money in the collection plate. Spreading gods word and supporting missionaries is part of it. They don't really want to see they are just being scammed out of $$$$$ just like all religions since the dawn of time. They couldn't do that if they followed the bible and stayed away from non-Xtians and surely thier flock would shrink without new converts.

[BuddhistCommunist]

Alas, christians are ignorant ... they don't see that their faith is lost... every time in history christianity has run into trouble with outside forces or internal struggle they change the meaning of the bible. examples

1. Who knows what was changed in the dark ages.

2. The crusades- Europe and Christianity threatened by Muslims, Pope says basically "anyone who fights in the crusades goes to Heaven" hmmm

3. Reformation- Martin Luther uses the bible to preach his point, the Catholics have counter Reformation to prove theirs. hmmm

4. All of the church splits- Henry 7or 8 wanted a divorce so founded the church of England- then the Puritans split off from them saying they had too many rituals and weren't strict enough, So they come to America and lived in fear of one bible verse "thou shalt not suffer a which to live" they killed many innocent people- the Jehovas witness think only 144,000 are going to be saved, but they have millions in their organization- pentecoastals believe make-up is the devil(i have pent. cousins)- the mormans think their leader saw Jesus!

5. And with the new rising threat of (atheism and Newage being the most) other ideas and science. Christians don't even agree with simple doctrine and are the most internally argumentative Religion in the world. So why do Christians debate us When they don't even agree with each other.

[Burry The Rag]

Hey TK421,

You could debate any subject in the world here, and YET you choose to debate how CORRECT your faith is.  Sounds like evangelism to me.  You already told me in another post that it is your hope to convince us that YOU are right about Jesus.

If I’m not mistaken, I believe you were referring to this:

I am here to learn and not evangelize. Yet, if Christianity is a falsehood, I hope this understanding comes to me. If Christianity is true, I hope you also understand it to be so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that is evangelism, the free exchange of ideas, then we define our terms quite differently.

I just would like YOU to recognize that what you're doing is self-willed and in contradiction with YOUR scriptures.  And if you think I'm WRONG in THIS assessment, THEN PROVE IT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not here to convince, hoodwink, rationalize, justify, scare or in any way threaten you, or anyone else, into Christendom. I see this as “working out my faith with fear and trembling.” I already know what I believe, how can I understand your perspective without asking? I also seek to provide a Christian perspective for those topics which I feel I am able to address. I enjoy the exchange and trust everyone who engages me does as well. I don't see that to be in contradiction to my scripture.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

[Checkmate]

Hey TK421,

 

I am not here to convince, hoodwink, rationalize, justify, scare or in any way threaten you, or anyone else, into Christendom. I see this as “working out my faith with fear and trembling.” I already know what I believe, how can I understand your perspective without asking?

Peace!

 

BtR

 

Frankly, it would take more time and ability (and a willingness on YOUR part to even IMAGINE that you could be wrong) than I am capable to get you to understand MY perspective. (I so detest in being verbose, when a few terse phrases should suffice.)

 

So...let me try it THIS way...

 

I DON'T BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS. Why not? I shouldn't HAVE to expalin! If I MUST explain, then YOU won't understand the answer!

 

And again...

 

What do YOU, BtR, think of Islam and Mormonism? Can I PRESUME that you reject THEIR religious beliefs? Or do you welcome them with open arms, willing to listen and tolerate their beliefs?

 

You probably do NOT. And why not? PROBABLY for the EXACT SAME REASONS WE REJECTED XIANITY. You EXAMINED THEIR faith, and found it to be "wrong".

 

Why, oh WHY, is THIS so difficult for you to understand when it comes to our rejecting YOUR faith?

 

I just believe IN ONE LESS GOD THAN YOU. And for the SAME reason you don't believe in "Allah", "Zeus", "Odin", etc. etc. Too fucking ridiculous for a grown adult with the IQ above room temperature to swallow.

 

Does this insult you? Probably. Is THAT my fault? Hell, no!

 

Believe what you want. Just don't expect me or anyone else to JOIN you in your delusions, simply because YOU claim it's "true".

 

NOW do you understand MY perspective?

[Mythra]

just because you did not "convert" does not mean i see you as less of a human being.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy. (inserted in place of my usual expletives)

 

Jesus colored glasses must automatically change "ex-christian" into "non-christian."

 

They just don't get it. WE DID CONVERT. That's why we had to DE-CONVERT.

 

ps. welcome to this forum, thanx2m&j

 

ps. ps. that's a weird freakin username.

[Ouroboros]

Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy.  (inserted in place of my usual expletives)

 

Jesus colored glasses must automatically change "ex-christian" into "non-christian."

 

They just don't get it.  WE DID CONVERT.  That's why we had to DE-CONVERT.

 

ps.  welcome to this forum, thanx2m&j

 

ps. ps.  that's a weird freakin username.

Oops! I read his post yesterday and missed that part. Good catch Mythra.

 

TX2MJ, I was converted 30 years, so I guess I definitely shouldn't be seen as a lesser person... And Mythra was converted too, was it about 25 or 30 years, M?

 

A majority of the members here were Christians. Some never were, but most of us spend time on our knees in prayer and read the Bible, and went to Bible schools and thousands of meetings.

 

We are no rookies in faith. We're definitely not n00bs.

 

But you seem to be a fairly open minded Christian, that's good. It can take you to our way of thinking by time, so watch out...

[Mythra]

Heya Hans.

 

I can tell you the MOMENT that I was "born-again" at the ripe old age of 22. I am now 49. So thats...(using all my fingers and toes)......... 27 years.

 

I wasn't as consistent as yourself or many of those here. About five times during these years, I said that "this doesn't make any sense", and took a christianism vacation - putting it all on a back burner somewhere in my mind. But during the years I was THERE, I was THERE.

 

And I've tried every flavor you can think of. Ass of God, Non-Denom fundy, Lutheran, Southern Baptist.

 

Since I was into the music, I went bonzo gung ho with shaping up that part of these churches. I've taken out personal loans to buy sound systems and new digital pianos for some of these churches. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

 

Now I feel like

[Burry The Rag]

Hey TK421,

What do YOU, BtR, think of Islam and Mormonism?  Can I PRESUME that you reject THEIR religious beliefs?  Or do you welcome them with open arms, willing to listen and tolerate their beliefs?

 

You probably do NOT.  And why not?  PROBABLY for the EXACT SAME REASONS WE REJECTED XIANITY.  You EXAMINED THEIR faith, and found it to be "wrong".

 

Why, oh WHY, is THIS so difficult for you to understand when it comes to our rejecting YOUR faith?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am willing to discuss differing viewpoints. That’s why I’m here. If I wanted to find a Christian board, I suspect it would not be too difficult, but that sort of chatting does not interest me. Am I open minded? I think so, you would likely not. I listen to and attempt to process your beliefs. Yet, I can’t say I’m seeking an alternative to Christianity. I do not question why you left Christianity. I don’t know you or your story, I have no idea if your path was logical or not. Do I, in your words, tolerate other’s beliefs. Yes, and I respect them too. Simply because I do not agree with someone does not mean I can not learn from them. Simply because I disagree with another’s belief system does not necessitate I think less of them.

Does this insult you? Probably. Is THAT my fault? Hell, no!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it didn’t offend me.

Believe what you want. Just don't expect me or anyone else to JOIN you in your delusions, simply because YOU claim it's "true".

 

NOW do you understand MY perspective?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sort of. You have experienced Christianity and found it lacking. I can accept that. I don’t agree with your conclusion, but certainly you have as much right to your opinion as I do to mine. What perplexes me, however, is when I attempted to respond to your question in an honest way you reply with, what I read as, a really angry response. You maintain I’m trying to convert you and I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. If I said something implying I was proselytizing or anything else inappropriate, please inform, and I will apologize. What gives?

 

Peace!

 

BtR

[Checkmate]

Since I was into the music, I went bonzo gung ho with shaping up that part of these churches.  I've taken out personal loans to buy sound systems and new digital pianos for some of these churches.  Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

 

Now I feel like   

 

And THAT reminds me of something!! I want my fucking MONEY back you fucking thieves!! All that tithe and offering shit, and I never ONCE saw any fucking "100, 60 or 40 fold return"!

 

I think I'll go into several churches and steal their sound systems as compensation for my loses!

 

Fucking rat bastards.

[Mythra]

Do I, in your words, tolerate other’s beliefs. Yes, and I respect them too.

BtR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No no no no. That ain't it, Burry. I don't want to speak for TK, but he ain't asking do you TOLERATE those beliefs. Here is what the deal is:

 

Burry: I don't believe Islam is true because ____________________(fill in blank)

 

equals

 

Ex-C: I don't believe christianism is true ____________________ (essentially same answer as stated above)

[Ouroboros]

Heya Hans.

 

I can tell you the MOMENT that I was "born-again" at the ripe old age of 22.  I am now 49.  So thats...(using all my fingers and toes).........    27 years.

Okay, counting fingers ... toes ... hey, I can't make 27 of them... how many fingers and toes do you really have M?

 

I wasn't as consistent as yourself or many of those here.  About five times during these years, I said that "this doesn't make any sense", and took a christianism vacation - putting it all on a back burner somewhere in my mind.  But during the years I was THERE, I was THERE.

Yeah, I hear ya'. Same here. When I was 17 I kind of slipped out of it for a while, but came back stronger in it afterwards.

 

And I've tried every flavor you can think of.  Ass of God, Non-Denom fundy, Lutheran, Southern Baptist.

A new flavor of Christian for each season. I think it's cherry this year...

 

Since I was into the music, I went bonzo gung ho with shaping up that part of these churches.  I've taken out personal loans to buy sound systems and new digital pianos for some of these churches.  Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

I remember you did worship and stuff. I did too. Played piano in the first church (pentecostal), and guitar in the prayer group in the faith church. Dude, I gave 100% too. I was not a Sunday Christian, I was it 24/7. Actually at some occasions I walked in prayer the whole day while I was working. I even went to these prayer meetings where you prayed for 6-8 hours straight... oohh, the PAIN, the headache... you stop knowing what to say anymore... you have said any kind of prayer after 45 minutes, and then you have yet hours to go! I guess that's how it feels to run a marathon...

 

Now I feel like   

Agree. I feel so stupid to buy into it, wholeheartedly.

[Ouroboros]

And THAT reminds me of something!!  I want my fucking MONEY back you fucking thieves!!  All that tithe and offering shit, and I never ONCE saw any fucking "100, 60 or 40 fold return"!

 

I think I'll go into several churches and steal their sound systems as compensation for my loses!

 

Fucking rat bastards. 

YEAH!!! I want it back TOO!

 

I never got 100, 60 or 40 fold return, but I did get 60% loss because I trusted what "Glob" told me during my prayers. I was led by the Holy Spirit to lose money. And this was supposed to happen to glorify his name?

[Checkmate]

Hey TK421,

 

Sort of. You have experienced Christianity and found it lacking. I can accept that. I don’t agree with your conclusion, but certainly you have as much right to your opinion as I do to mine. What perplexes me, however, is when I attempted to respond to your question in an honest way you reply with, what I read as, a really angry response. You maintain I’m trying to convert you and I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. If I said something implying I was proselytizing or anything else inappropriate, please inform, and I will apologize. What gives?

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

BtR, you don't need to apologize to ME for anything.

 

As for "what gives?"...Well, let me just say that IF in the future YOU come to the realization that Xianity is BS, AND that YOU'VE devoted and wasted several YEARS and DECADES of your life and substance to a LIE, AND THEN some representatives of this same religion come into your field of "vision" telling YOU how "wonderful" "Jesus/God" is...I'm PRETTY sure you might get a little bit miffed!

 

Yeah. I've got some "anger issues" with Xianity and religion in general. So don't expect me to "tread lightly" when you skip in here with your "Pollyanna" attitude. It quite frankly pisses me off.

 

WHICH is WHY I tend to avoid talking to Xians. WHICH is WHY I don't appreciate your presence here. (I said "I DON'T", not "WE DON'T". I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself.)

 

You could be the nicest bloke on the planet for all I know.

 

But if "the nicest bloke on the planet" keeps trying to sell me shit that I keep telling him I DON'T WANT, then I'm going to give this "nice bloke" a shot gun enema.

 

Nothing personal. I'm just psychotic. Okay?

 

Now, if we're quite through examining me, can we get back to the topic at hand? (Whatever the fuck THAT is?!? )

[spamandham]

TK421, in all fairness, this is the "Debating with Christians" sub-forum.

[Checkmate]

TK421, in all fairness, this is the "Debating with Christians" sub-forum.

 

sigh* I know, Spam, I know. And as I have said REPEATEDLY, I'm not telling them they cannot be here. I am simply curious as to HOW and WHY they justify their presence. As it SEEMS to me their bible says differently. I fully understand the debate and learning from others angle.

 

But don't they run the risk of being "unequally yoked" or something? They are also told to "have nothing to do with the works of darkness, but rather reprove them". In other words, they are to CORRECT us, NOT learn from us! Xians fundamentally can NOT be instructed by heathens. To claim they are here to "learn from us", is disingenuous and a smoke screen.(IMHO) They want nothing less than to CORRECT our pitiful world view, not to "understand it". If they ever UNDERSTOOD us, they'd join us. So I don't buy this dodge.

 

In another thread, pinned above by Super Moderator Bruce, he posed this question:

 

Christian ExC members:

 

1. Why are you a member of ExChristian.net, when the ExChristians do not believe in your religion and most thoroughly despise what you believe in?

 

THIS was not a request for them to leave the forum, but a request for understanding.

 

What I BELIEVE I'm trying to do is follow along in this vein. (Maybe I'm failing. Time will tell.)

 

However, I believe they are being hypocritical by disobeying THEIR vaunted scriptures.

 

All I want is for them to defend THIS contention of mine.

 

I hope I've been clear this time around. (?)

[Mythra]

I think it would be easier if we met just one honest christian. Just one. One who would lay down the "full armor of God" long enough to be human. Here, christians - let me give you an example.

 

Honest christian:

 

I trust the bible and I believe that Jesus is who he says he is in the bible. I don't know why christianity didn't work out for you guys. I feel really bad that my religion seems to have let you down. Maybe you all were at fault, maybe you weren't. I just don't know. You sure seem like you were sincere committed christians. There is a lot that I don't understand. Sometimes I have doubts myself, but overall I still believe and trust in the gospel. I'm not sure where I would be without Jesus as my guide.

 

I admit that there are things about the origins of christianity that I haven't really looked all that closely at. I don't see the point of examining something that might cause me to doubt further.

 

I know there are contradictions in the bible. I can't explain them away. I have read about the apparent atrocities in the old testatment that were approved or initiated by God, and these are a problem for me.

 

But in spite of all this, I still believe. I have to.

 

THIS IS WHAT AN HONEST CHRISTIAN WOULD SAY.

[Checkmate]

I won't be holding my breath waiting for this "honest Xian", Mythra!

[scotter]

Mythra and folks:

 

Isn't this TAP?

[Vixentrox]

Mythra and folks:

 

Isn't this TAP?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Even TAP lies to herself. It's part of beliving in invisible friends.

[Mythra]

You're right. I didn't think about her. In fact, my post almost sounds like Tap. I wonder how she's doing over in India? I heard there are record monsoon rains going on right now. Bet she'll be glad to get back here.

 

Tap's AOK with me.

[Vixentrox]

She is OK by me too. Never the less, Xtians, all of them are in a state of denial and are lying to themselves.

[BeccasStillSeeking]

You were never a true Agnostic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks, I'm sure my keyboard needed that watering....