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Why Do Xians Debate with Non-Xians?

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Okay. I’m going to try this again. I’m addressing XIANS today, folks. NOT EX-Xians. I want to hear from XIANS. I want to know what motivates THEM.

 

I want to know WHY Xians come here seeking to debate NON-Xians?

 

I’m not questioning the value, merit or usefulness of DEBATE. I know how much you people LOVE to debate and argue about shit. And sometimes some good can come from debating. I do NOT question the nature of DEBATING.

 

What I question is the Xian tendency to DISREGARD their own scriptures by constantly hammering away at non-believers, when THE BIBLE tells them NOT to argue with non-believers!

 

Don’t believe me? Well, I happen to still own several bibles. Let’s just see what the “word of God” has to say on this issue.

 

 

Matthew 10:13-14 (KJV)

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

Acts 13:45-46 (NKJV)

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

 

Acts 18:6 (ASV)

6 And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood [be] upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

 

Romans 16:17-18 (Darby)

17 But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions and occasions of falling, contrary to the doctrine which *ye* have learnt, and turn away from them. 18 For such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

 

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (Young’s Literal)

1 And this know thou, that in the last days there shall come perilous times, 2 for men shall be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, evil-speakers, to parents disobedient, unthankful, unkind, 3 without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good, 4 traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, 5 having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away,

 

Titus 3:9-11 (Weymouth NT)

9 But hold yourself aloof from foolish controversies and pedigrees and discussions and wrangling about the Law, for they are useless and vain. 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing further to do with any one who will not be taught; 11 for, as you know, a man of that description has turned aside from the right path and is a sinner self-condemned.

 

(And my personal favorite:)

Hebrews 6:4-6 (Weymouth NT)

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once for all been enlightened, and have tasted the sweetness of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have realized how good the word of God is and how mighty are the powers of the coming Age, and then fell away-- 6 it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.

 

 

There’s more, but these few verses should suffice.

 

Now, I KNOW how Xians simply LOVE to disagree with the plain reading of scripture when it suits them.

 

I also know how Xians LOVE to disagree with another’s “interpretation” of scripture.

 

And I know how Xians LOVE to disregard bible translations they “don’t like/approve”.

 

But please…Can you people be HONEST for just 5 fucking minutes?!?

 

Don’t these scriptures instruct YOU the believer, NOT to waste time with us APOSTATES and NON-believers?

 

We’ve turned away! We deny the faith! We CANNOT be renewed nor brought back! Xians are NOT supposed to engage in fruitless arguments with EX-Xians!

 

So…WHY are you here? Why do you bother? Are you masochistic? Do you enjoy a good fight? Are you trying to earn some kind of Xian brownie points by witnessing to the heathen? What gives?

 

I don’t know about anybody else, but you will NEVER “win me” to “Christ”. Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt shop. I ain’t going back. I like who I am now.

 

YOUR job, as I read it, is to knock the dust from your feet and walk away from me. I am “self-condemned”. I’ve judged myself “unworthy” of the gospel.

So…GO AWAY.

 

(Why do I seem to understand scripture better than so-called Xians? And I don’t even BELIEVE this fucking book!)

 

Oh! And before anyone trots out THIS canard, allow me to beat you to the punch:

 

James 5:20 (Weymouth NT)

19 My brethren, if one of you strays from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that he who brings a sinner back from his evil ways will save the man's soul from death and throw a veil over a multitude of sins.

 

Sounds good, doesn’t it?

 

So with this ONE scripture (found in the letter that Reformation hero Martin Luther called an “epistle of straw”), you wish to nullify ALL the other scriptures (from Jesus and Paul) that teach the opposite?

 

Do that if you want to, but you’ll just be stepping into my other trap: i.e. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK OF CONTRADICTIONS AND IS VERY CONFUSING! THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE THE WORD OF GOD!

 

When read “in context” and “as a whole”, the reader cannot help but be more confused than a feather in a whirlwind.

 

I suppose that is why Xians are so selective in their reading. Less dichotomy that way.

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Sorry TK to post my 2cent, but here's my support, I also want to know the answer to this question.

 

Mods: This is very good post, I recommend this one to be pinned.

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What I question is the Xian tendency to DISREGARD their own scriptures by constantly hammering away at non-believers, when THE BIBLE tells them NOT to argue with non-believers!

 

I can tell you what my fundy cube mate told me. He says he learns from debating. Well, I have yet to see him actually learn anything from debating me. He just keeps spewing Apologist crap every time he brings up religion.

 

:ugh:

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Guest Tom

Thanks for sharing that. I see that you have a respect for the totality of scripture and believe that me and others like me should follow the whole Bible. I do have a question. How does the parable of the prodigal son enter into your argument?

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Guest Tom

Me again,

I do need to point out that in most of the scriptures that you quote. There is first a speaking of the word of God and then there is a rejection to the point of blasphemy. It is the blasphemy that is responded to, not hte people.

 

A second point is that this is the one place on the site where Christians are able to dialogue. Judging by the attendance, there is a need for this part of the site. I respect the moderators wishes and do not post anywhere else. If you don't like it why do you come here.

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Thanks for sharing that.  I see that you have a respect for the totality of scripture and believe that me and others like me should follow the whole Bible.  I do have a question.  How does the parable of the prodigal son enter into your argument?

 

OH MY GOODNESS! Someone took the "bait"! (Just kidding, Tom.)

 

Actually, I'm surprised to hear from any Xians on this thread. (I only posted it TWO days ago, and not ONE bite, until now. So you are to be congratulated for your courage.)

 

And since you did respond (even though it IS with a question, rather than an answer to MY question), I'll play along for now and give you an answer.

 

"How does the parable of the Prodigal Son enter into your argument?"

 

It enters in precisely where the verse from James enters. On the CONTRADICTION side. Simply one more log to throw on the fire that proves that scripture can and does contradict itself and leads to mass confusion.

 

Either there IS hope for us Apostates, or there is NOT. Pick a side and stay with it.

 

I see you have another post for me, so I'll tackle that one next.

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Me again,

I do need to point out that in most of the scriptures that you quote.  There is first a speaking of the word of God and then there is a rejection to the point of blasphemy.  It is the blasphemy that is responded to, not hte people.

 

A second point is that this is the one place on the site where Christians are able to dialogue.  Judging by the attendance, there is a need for this part of the site.  I respect the moderators wishes and do not post anywhere else.  If you don't like it why do you come here.

 

Hello again, Tom.

 

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't understand your point vis-a-vis the rejection/blasphemy thing. What does this have to do with anything?

 

It appears to me, you're bringing up a non-sequitor (sp?) smokescreen to derail my thread, and I'm not willing to be rabbit trailed like some people. Let's stick to the original thought please.

 

As to your second point. (I knew THIS would come up!)

 

You are correct. I DON'T like debating Xians. Which is why I USUALLY avoid it. I much prefer to lurk in the background, and watch others vainly bash their heads against brick walls.

 

(Just like some perverse auto crash, it's often a sick pleasure of mine to drive by and watch the spectacle.)

 

Also, every once in a while, I see a moment when I CAN sneak in and clarify a point for someone, WITHOUT getting TOO involved, and then slip back out.

 

YOU say you respect the Moderators? Goodie! What makes you think that I do not?

 

I respect everyone here. And if you will re-read my OP for this thread, you will see that I have NO PROBLEM with the CONCEPT of debates. I don't even CARE if you Xians come here for debate. You WERE IN FACT INVITED for a debate! Wonderful!

 

But that DOES NOT nullify the validity of MY question. Which is (restated):

 

Since (and IF) YOUR BIBLE says DO NOT DEBATE WITH THE HEATHEN (in an effort to WIN them back), why are YOU ignoring this admonition and being drawn into USELESS debates BY these very heathens?

 

Just because Dave invites you to this forum, it doesn't mean you don't HAVE to come. Millions of other Xians manage to avoid this forum. I simply want to know why YOU don't.

 

And I was just wondering, HOW DO YOU SQUARE YOUR POSITION CONSIDERING THAT YOUR BIBLE (seemingly) SAYS OTHERWISE?

 

Please understand something. I am NOT telling you, that YOU must leave this forum. I haven't said it, nor do I think I've implied it. (Although you can probably INFER that this is MY private opinion.)

 

STAY all you want. Debate to your heart's content! You WERE, after all, INVITED here. Who am I to tell you to leave?

 

I'm simply posing a topic for YOU to debate. Which IS what YOU came here for, isn't it?

 

That's it. Hope I've satisfied your nagging questions about ME and MY motives.

 

Now...Can you PLEASE answer MY questions, without any further attempts to derail this thread?

 

(I apologize for being snippy, but, as you all know by now, I DON'T LIKE DEBATING WITH XIANS. And why? They have a tendency NOT to answer the questions!!)

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O.o are you TRYING to lose the xians on this site? lol, i love the debates and i love seeing the good quotes and awsome comebacks :D:lmao:

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O.o are you TRYING to lose the xians on this site? lol, i love the debates and i love seeing the good quotes and awsome comebacks :D:lmao:

 

Nah! I just like poking them every once in awhile, for the "cognative dissonance" aspect.

 

Actually, I'll let you all in on a secret: There IS a legitimate reply/answer to my post. I already KNOW what it is. It just tickles me that the Xians don't know what it is! It's really easy and PAINFULLY obvious.

 

If they never figure it out, I suppose I'll have to answer my own stinking question FOR them. Or I'll just let them twist in the wind.

 

Losers. :loser:

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Oh oh i know, its so they can get more crack pot looneys on their side agianst harry potter and then kill him and let he-who-must-not-be-named(hint hint: god :) ) win :D

 

 

 

lol was messing up on the [/ b] thing XD

 

 

okay 4th edit, im done :)

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Over in "Humor and Satire", Syndacit posts "OK place your bets". In which s/he(?) wonders how long before a thread began on this Xian forum:

 

http://www.christianteenforums.com/index.php?showtopic=8087

 

would be shut down.

 

I only mention it HERE because it provides a fascinating case study for how Xians treat opposing views on THEIR site, as opposed to how Xian debate is welcomed AND encouraged on this site. (Not encouraged by ME, of course, but you know what I mean! :lmao: )

 

I find it illuminating, to say the least.

 

For their faith to be "grounded on the solid rock that is Christ", they sure do act as if it's a house of cards built on sand! :loser:

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Okay.  I’m going to try this again.  I’m addressing XIANS today, folks.  NOT EX-Xians.  I want to hear from XIANS.  I want to know what motivates THEM.

 

I want to know WHY Xians come here seeking to debate NON-Xians?

 

I’m not questioning the value, merit or usefulness of DEBATE.  I know how much you people LOVE to debate and argue about shit.  And sometimes some good can come from debating.  I do NOT question the nature of DEBATING.

 

What I question is the Xian tendency to DISREGARD their own scriptures by constantly hammering away at non-believers, when THE BIBLE tells them NOT to argue with non-believers!

 

Don’t believe me?  Well, I happen to still own several bibles.  Let’s just see what the “word of God” has to say on this issue.

Matthew 10:13-14 (KJV)

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 

Acts 13:45-46 (NKJV)

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

 

Acts 18:6 (ASV)

6 And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood [be] upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

 

Romans 16:17-18 (Darby)

17 But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions and occasions of falling, contrary to the doctrine which *ye* have learnt, and turn away from them. 18 For such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

 

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (Young’s Literal)

1 And this know thou, that in the last days there shall come perilous times, 2 for men shall be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, evil-speakers, to parents disobedient, unthankful, unkind, 3 without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good, 4 traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, 5 having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away,

 

Titus 3:9-11 (Weymouth NT)

9 But hold yourself aloof from foolish controversies and pedigrees and discussions and wrangling about the Law, for they are useless and vain. 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing further to do with any one who will not be taught; 11 for, as you know, a man of that description has turned aside from the right path and is a sinner self-condemned.

 

(And my personal favorite:)

Hebrews 6:4-6 (Weymouth NT)

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once for all been enlightened, and have tasted the sweetness of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have realized how good the word of God is and how mighty are the powers of the coming Age, and then fell away-- 6 it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.

There’s more, but these few verses should suffice.

 

Now, I KNOW how Xians simply LOVE to disagree with the plain reading of scripture when it suits them.

 

I also know how Xians LOVE to disagree with another’s “interpretation” of scripture.

 

And I know how Xians LOVE to disregard bible translations they “don’t like/approve”.

 

But please…Can you people be HONEST for just 5 fucking minutes?!?

 

Don’t these scriptures instruct YOU the believer, NOT to waste time with us APOSTATES and NON-believers?

 

We’ve turned away!  We deny the faith!  We CANNOT be renewed nor brought back!  Xians are NOT supposed to engage in fruitless arguments with EX-Xians!

 

So…WHY are you here?  Why do you bother?  Are you masochistic?  Do you enjoy a good fight?  Are you trying to earn some kind of Xian brownie points by witnessing to the heathen?  What gives? 

 

I don’t know about anybody else, but you will NEVER “win me” to “Christ”.  Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt shop.  I ain’t going back.  I like who I am now.

 

YOUR job, as I read it, is to knock the dust from your feet and walk away from me.  I am “self-condemned”.  I’ve judged myself “unworthy” of the gospel.

So…GO AWAY.

 

(Why do I seem to understand scripture better than so-called Xians?  And I don’t even BELIEVE this fucking book!)

 

Oh!  And before anyone trots out THIS canard, allow me to beat you to the punch:

 

James 5:20 (Weymouth NT)

19 My brethren, if one of you strays from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that he who brings a sinner back from his evil ways will save the man's soul from death and throw a veil over a multitude of sins.

 

Sounds good, doesn’t it?

 

So with this ONE scripture (found in the letter that Reformation hero Martin Luther called an “epistle of straw”), you wish to nullify ALL the other scriptures (from Jesus and Paul) that teach the opposite?

 

Do that if you want to, but you’ll just be stepping into my other trap:  i.e. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK OF CONTRADICTIONS AND IS VERY CONFUSING!  THEREFORE IT CANNOT BE THE WORD OF GOD!

 

When read “in context” and “as a whole”, the reader cannot help but be more confused than a feather in a whirlwind.

 

I suppose that is why Xians are so selective in their reading.  Less dichotomy that way.

 

 

 

Matt 10:27

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

(KJV)

 

Matt 9:36

36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

(KJV)

 

Matt 9:37-38

37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

(KJV)

 

Matt 10:16

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

(KJV)

 

Matt 18:14-17

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(KJV)

 

John 21:16-17

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

(KJV)

 

Matt 5:46

46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

(KJV)

 

Matt 5:47

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

(KJV)

 

Matt 9:12

12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

(KJV)

 

Matt 5:44

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

(KJV)

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Okay.  I’m going to try this again.  I’m addressing XIANS today, folks.  NOT EX-Xians.  I want to hear from XIANS.  I want to know what motivates THEM.

 

I want to know WHY Xians come here seeking to debate NON-Xians?

 

 

From TJR666:

 

Why do I bother … since reading many of the postings on this site I wonder why myself.

 

I was basically agnostic till the age of 36. I then had cause to question God, religion, etc. It took another ten years of searching and researching the various ideas: Atheism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, until I came to the conclusion that the Bible God and Jesus Christ were the right ones.

 

Scoff if you must; but there are just so many things over the years that I weighed up from many different sources that led me to this conclusion. It is not something that can be adequately covered here in this type of forum I have since discovered.

 

Why do I bother?

 

If the Bible is right, and I believe it is, then it reveals an existence for us all after death, etc, etc, and you are no doubt familiar with where this is going. If something like the Biblical “Hell” does exist, and I know about it, then why shouldn’t I try to tell you about it?

 

I remember a quote by an atheist that went something like this: “If Hell is a real place then Christians would crawl a hundred miles over broken glass to tell me about it. But they don’t, so it’s not real.”

 

If Hell doesn’t exist, and I am wrong, then what harm have I done to you (except maybe aggravate you for which I apologise)?

 

To answer you question: For me as a Christian, I bother simply because I don’t wish to see anyone go to such a place.

 

So, I discuss issues here in the hope that any impediments to you considering Christ are removed.

 

TJR666

 

PS: Actually, if you study the use of Hell/Hades in Scripture, you will find that “Hell” is a state you are in, not an actual place. But that’s another story.

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TJR666--

 

Greetings. Rather than comment piecemeal on everything you've said, I'll just sum it up. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

You "bother" with us heathens out of pity. You fear our going to hell, and so you warn us. Is that about right?

 

If so, this is most commendable. Bravo. Gold star for you.

 

However, you must realize that we will indeed "scoff" at your concern. We do not believe in "hell" (and no thanks, I won't be studying the doctrine of hell anymore. Did that long enough when I was a Xorg meself).

 

So...now that you KNOW that we do NOT believe...Why don't you shake the dust off of your feet and go away? As we have indeed judged ourselves unworthy of salvation, why waste effort pissing* into the wind? Surely there MUST be others more receptive, AND unaware of this "glorious gospel" you preach. Why not go pick on them?

 

But should you decide to stay and butt heads, don't complain when you get headaches and frustration.

 

(*Hopefully my "vulgar tongue" doesn't shock you, as it does SOME of your comrades. But the word "pisseth" IS used in the KJV, so I figure THAT must be OK with you?)

 

:grin:

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I know you Christians seem to have the self-importance thing down pat, but could you consider for a moment that maybe it's not up to you whether or not we convert? Maybe you could try trusting in your own god to bring believers in whenever he wants to instead of pushing at us with your agenda?

 

Just a suggestion.

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Thier god is too pathetic and feeble to do anything on his own. He needs mere humans to go about god's work.

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I'll answer as a Christian, since I used to be one.

 

At the time, I argued with nonbelievers because I had come to my belief in Christianity based on reason rather than faith, just like every other Christian I have ever met. Ask any of them why they believe, and they will give an answer other than "because I hope it's true", which is the only valid answer for someone who believes through faith.

 

Since it was based on reason, it was reasonable to argue it. I just ignored the passages that say not to do this, as they seemed only to apply to those who refused to listen. Obviously if someone is arguing with you (as opposed to 'at you'), then they must be listening to some degree.

 

Eventually, I realized that they had the better argument. That was the first time it became clear to me that my belief was not based on faith, just on crap evidence and crap arguments.

 

I still take the advice those passages give. When I realize someone is not listening to me, I quit wasting my time and energy and move on.

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TR,

 

Quote from you:

I then had cause to question God, religion, etc. It took another ten years of searching and researching the various ideas: Atheism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, until I came to the conclusion that the Bible God and Jesus Christ were the right ones.

.....but there are just so many things over the years that I weighed up from many different sources that led me to this conclusion. It is not something that can be adequately covered here in this type of forum I have since discovered.

 

Actually I am interested in hearing your story. If whole story is not possible because of length, please pick some major sources that share heavier weights. Not urgent of course. Take your time.

 

Thank you.

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From TJR666:

 

Why do I bother … since reading many of the postings on this site I wonder why myself.

 

I was basically agnostic till the age of 36. I then had cause to question God, religion, etc. It took another ten years of searching and researching the various ideas: Atheism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, until I came to the conclusion that the Bible God and Jesus Christ were the right ones.

You were never a true Agnostic.

 

Scoff if you must; but there are just so many things over the years that I weighed up from many different sources that led me to this conclusion. It is not something that can be adequately covered here in this type of forum I have since discovered.

 

Why do I bother?

One of these reasons:

 

1. You want to convert us or some of us

 

2. You are insecure about your faith and want to re-confirm it by discussing and hopefully the answers will satisfy you to why you still believe

 

3. You truly are in doubt of your faith and looking for something else to believe

 

4. You are open minded and want to discuss and learn more things

 

I haven't seen you fall into 3 or 4, so you're either on a mission trip here, or you have a subconscious doubt about your faith, and need to get reasons to why you left agnosticism.

 

If the Bible is right, and I believe it is, then it reveals an existence for us all after death, etc, etc, and you are no doubt familiar with where this is going. If something like the Biblical “Hell” does exist, and I know about it, then why shouldn’t I try to tell you about it?

Just because it's your fantasy you don’t have the right to push it unto us. If a schizo patient, hearing voice from mars, running around and shouting the aliens are coming, do you think he should be left to do so, and not treated? Does his delusion give him the right to convert people to believe in aliens and the threat? And would it give him the right to do it in Church?

 

Your argument "try to tell" shows that your purpose here is to convert people. WE WERE CHRISTIANS! WE KNOW ABOUT HELL! So you can't come here and tell us about the story we have read and studied for a very long time. I was Christian from 7 years old until 37, I went to Bible school and I went on mission trips. So come on, can't you get this. You're not telling us anything new. So there's no need for you to argue with us, we have nothing to learn from you unless you start learning too, and bring something fresh to the table.

 

I used to believe in Hell, I don’t believe in Hell anymore, end of story.

 

I remember a quote by an atheist that went something like this: “If Hell is a real place then Christians would crawl a hundred miles over broken glass to tell me about it. But they don’t, so it’s not real.”

Exactly, and most Christians believe the Bible is the WORD OF GOD, and never read it.

 

If Hell doesn’t exist, and I am wrong, then what harm have I done to you (except maybe aggravate you for which I apologise)?

You still have to understand that some of us believed in hell for 30 years. Does that count as getting enough information about it? I went to meetings where the subject was…gasp… HELL!

 

To answer you question: For me as a Christian, I bother simply because I don’t wish to see anyone go to such a place.

I think it’s more of that you don’t want to be alone and wrong. If more people believe like you, that will support your own faith instead.

 

So you say you accept if people would start knocking on your door to tell you about Islam, Hinduism, Paganism, Buddhism or Judaism? What kind of response will those people get from you, when they put leaflets on your car, spam you mailbox, post messages on a Christian forum? Why is it that we get BLOCKED when we join the Christian forums? We don’t get to tell, talk, discuss, evangelize our beliefs to YOU, and you say “Oh, poor me, bah, bah, the evil atheist doesn’t want to listen to me, they’re so unfair.” while your own kind blocks and stops us from saying anything.

 

You should be glad that we actually do believe in FREE SPEECH, which you obviously don’t, and neither does your brother in Christ. You believe in Free Speech for You to preach to Us, but not Free Speech in Us preach to You!

 

So, I discuss issues here in the hope that any impediments to you considering Christ are removed.

 

TJR666

 

PS: Actually, if you study the use of Hell/Hades in Scripture, you will find that “Hell” is a state you are in, not an actual place. But that’s another story.

Then I’m in heaven, since I feel better, are happier, feel free and liberated, in control, matured, open minded, able to contain multiple contradictory solutions to life and world problems simultaneous and finally not bound by ideas that were invented by someone thousands of years ago.

 

God gave me Hell, but apostasy gave me Heaven.

 

You see, I feel better now than ever, so I am not in Hell now. But I was in Hell when Gawd sent the accident that nearly killed my son, and made him a paraplegic for the rest of his life after 24 life threatening surgeries, and that’s just the beginning…

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Guest thanx2m&j
Oh, I'm feeling a little "verclemp" (sp?) :HappyCry:   That was beautiful.  Thanks Han, you have once again expressed my feelings to the tee.  BTW...being that as apostates we couldn't come back even if we wanted to, isn't a Christian in the sin of idleness? Wouldn't it be considered spending "idle" time, doing something which isn't productive for the kingdom?

 

Because I value you guys opinions as human beings not as meat to be converted. That is why.

 

I do agree with what you say about the Bible. People have to make thier own decisions on whether or not they want to be a christian. it is ultimately up to them; no one can force them.

 

just because you did not "convert" does not mean i see you as less of a human being. i also spend way to much time hanging out with chrisitians who drive me crazy and give me grief for reading harry potter and would rather have fun with people who don't analyze my every move.

 

i should also mention that of my two closest friends, one is agnostic and the other mormon. they are my friends first, not potential converts. i have talked with them about what i believe and they have talked with me about they both believe. we all know what each other believes, and like i said, it is mark and coco's decision on what they do, not mine. if they want to stay agnostic and mormon, so be it.

 

i also believe in living the christian life by example, thank you very much, and burning harry potter books and telling people they cannot have sex or drink beer (non-christians of course) is just not right.

 

i have never found anything wrong with the harry potter books, they are amongmy favorites, i like them better than chronicles of narnia.

 

call me weird if you like, but i don't call myself a fundie because i am always getting in fights with them.

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Oh, I'm feeling a little "verclemp" (sp?) :HappyCry:   That was beautiful.  Thanks Han, you have once again expressed my feelings to the tee.  BTW...being that as apostates we couldn't come back even if we wanted to, isn't a Christian in the sin of idleness? Wouldn't it be considered spending "idle" time, doing something which isn't productive for the kingdom?

:thanks:

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I want to know WHY Xians come here seeking to debate NON-Xians?

Hey TK421,

 

As a Christian, I don't think we are called to isolate ourselves, nor should we over assert our voice and proselytize those uninterested. I enjoy being able to view my faith from a perspective I have as yet been unaware of. My goal is that at the end of the day is that I, and those who interact with me, will be able to more clearly understand the views of the other.

 

I am here to learn and not evangelize. Yet, if Christianity is a falsehood, I hope this understanding comes to me. If Christianity is true, I hope you also understand it to be so.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

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Hey TK421,

 

As a Christian, I don't think we are called to isolate ourselves, nor should we over assert our voice and proselytize those uninterested. I enjoy being able to view my faith from a perspective I have as yet been unaware of. My goal is that at the end of the day is that I, and those who interact with me, will be able to more clearly understand the views of the other.

 

I am here to learn and not evangelize. Yet, if Christianity is a falsehood, I hope this understanding comes to me. If Christianity is true, I hope you also understand it to be so.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

 

 

OK. I'm confused.

 

You're NOT here to evangelize, nor proselytize "to those uninterested".

 

And YET you hope to debate with us "uninterested" people in the hopes that we will understand that Xianity is true. (Isn't THAT evangelism?)

 

??????????????

 

Sorry, but THAT sounds like a contradiction.

 

We've LEFT the faith. We HEARD the "gospel" AND rejected it as a lie.

 

What MORE can you POSSIBLY say to us? Do you possibly have the temerity to assume that YOU are going to be the ONE BEING IN THE UNIVERSE to tell us something we haven't yet heard or experienced?

 

I'm sorry, BTR, but you're not making much sense to me. ESPECIALLY when YOUR bible says WE CANNOT BE SAVED AGAIN. Stick a fork in us, we're done.

 

Why bother?

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Hey TK421,

And YET you hope to debate with us "uninterested" people in the hopes that we will understand that Xianity is true.  (Isn't THAT evangelism?)

It was my understanding anyone posting in a Debating with Christians was interested not only debate but debate with Christians. I am here to learn from and exchange ideas with those who choose to engage me.

 

Peace!

 

BtR

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That's the trick for the Christian to do... to harmonize when the bible says not to seek fellowship with non-believers but than says that it should spread the Bible to these very same non-believers. Well none of it makes sense within the Bible if your aim is to truely harmonize it. What does make sense is that each community (Be it Matthew, be it Mark, be it Luke etc... to Paul who never knew Jesus face to face) developed its theology seperately and according to the social situations that surronded each community. They were either Jews or proto-christians that did not have a New Testament to read to iron out any of the difficulties or contradictions that we find so apparent later on if not married to the inerrant nonesence. Hell, Paul didn't even have a New Testament to read. OT yes, but not the NT.

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