bornagainathiest Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 When jesus specifically commanded the deaths of infants for one. Care to explain that to me? That's one big fucking warning sign that says "don't vote for that guy!" Remember, he and his father are "one." So that means he was there and he commanded that. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites# When you hold good to your word to me Ironhorse, please don't kid yourself that cutting and pasting something constitutes 'answering' a question. It doesn't. Do the work yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 How original of Ironpony, William Lane Craig. Ok, let's line that up against another christian, Paul Copan. WLC, Paul Copan, and Ironpony all believe they're genuine christians. Copan: He argues that only enemy combatants were killed, that it's metaphoric language. Those male children were not really killed, it's a language issue! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1K8pEB2xic Craig: Those kids WERE killed, but god is showing them mercy by having them killed! Those kids automatically went to heaven as 'a result of their earthly life terminated.' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc So we have 2 christians, genuine christians they tell us, that tell HUGELY DIFFERENT explanations about why their exact same god ordered kids be put to death. One is saying it's a language thing, the kids weren't really killed, only willing combatants were Another is saying that it's a good thing those kids died because god showed them mercy Where have I seen huge contradictions like that before... Oh yeah, the bible. Again... I've tried before to explain these difficult verses in the OT. I've posted one explanation...you posted another. (thank you) As a believer in Jesus this does not bother me. The Bible a collection of books about God and people in history. God used people to write the story. I like that a lot better than gold plates falling from the sky. Back to the fray.... If I gave you an explanation on those difficult verses that you would accept, would you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? Please retract your question to Roz and apologize to her, Ironhorse. Your explanation for this postponement is that you're now busy living up to your word to me - that is, answering the questions that have already been put to you, not asking fresh ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 25, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 25, 2014 I believe Jesus was God. Good news, everybody! TinPony has finally deconverted. He's admitted that he believed jesus was god (past tense), which means, by implication that he doesn't believe that jesus is god (present tense). So either he has finally joined the dark side, or he doesn't understand basic English grammar. Still, good news for all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 How original of Ironpony, William Lane Craig. Ok, let's line that up against another christian, Paul Copan. WLC, Paul Copan, and Ironpony all believe they're genuine christians. Copan: He argues that only enemy combatants were killed, that it's metaphoric language. Those male children were not really killed, it's a language issue! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1K8pEB2xic Craig: Those kids WERE killed, but god is showing them mercy by having them killed! Those kids automatically went to heaven as 'a result of their earthly life terminated.' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUMzYA3XSEc So we have 2 christians, genuine christians they tell us, that tell HUGELY DIFFERENT explanations about why their exact same god ordered kids be put to death. One is saying it's a language thing, the kids weren't really killed, only willing combatants were Another is saying that it's a good thing those kids died because god showed them mercy Where have I seen huge contradictions like that before... Oh yeah, the bible. Again... I've tried before to explain these difficult verses in the OT. I've posted one explanation...you posted another. (thank you) As a believer in Jesus this does not bother me. The Bible a collection of books about God and people in history. God used people to write the story. I like that a lot better than gold plates falling from the sky. Back to the fray.... If I gave you an explanation on those difficult verses that you would accept, would you believe that Jesus is the Messiah? No, because your explanation is really another man's explanation, which is contradictory with other people's explanations about the direct command of god. 1 god 1 command to kill children 1 very shocked Roz about why god commanded that 1 repository of vastly different explanations from many christians about why their 1 god commanded that If I gave you an explanation on those difficult verses, would you believe that christianity is just bogus? I suspect not, because you believe what you want to believe, regardless of evidence that are contradictory. Good job, Ironpony, that's being a good religionist. I believe Jesus was God. I believe what is recorded about him in the Gospels. To me, it's that simple. As far as dissecting the scriptures to make them all line up in perfect harmony, I enjoy reading and studying them, but my faith is in Christ, not in my human understanding of all the mysteries of God. I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the stripper factory and the beer volcano. It's just that simple. :-) You would think that the inspired scriptures of God might actually line up in perfect harmony. It's a mystery to me why you believe in God. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. Fuck that, TinPony. In what kind of parallel universe does six hours equate to eternity? And jesus didn't really die and go to hell; he rose again after a whopping three days. How is that anything at all like an individual suffering eternal conscious torment? Emotional Drama Universe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 This is the god who could encapsulate fucking ETERNITY of hell on six hours on a cross, but yet can't make a square circle or make his bible without contradictions. He can bend space and time, but yet can't make his book free from error. God works in mysterious ways. And I'm glad If we could figure it all out...what fun would that be Jesus' sense of fun sends people to eternal conscious torment in hell. I'll leave the fun aside if it comes at the cost of being tortured by Jesus, literally forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsman Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. So 6 hours on the cross=eternity in hell. Seems legit. Alternatively(assuming its true) he could only tolerate hell for 6 hours, something he has comdemned all humanity to. Justice ftw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened.True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. So 6 hours on the cross=eternity in hell. Seems legit. Alternatively(assuming its true) he could only tolerate hell for 6 hours, something he has comdemned all humanity to. Justice ftw. Yes, that's like driving past a prison on the way to a 5 star resort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 … I believe Jesus was God. I believe what is recorded about him in the Gospels. To me, it's that simple. … Which demonstrates why you are an intellectual coward. … As far as dissecting the scriptures to make them all line up in perfect harmony, I enjoy reading and studying them, but my faith is in Christ, not in my human understanding of all the mysteries of God. All you have is your faith. Religious faith is for cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 When jesus specifically commanded the deaths of infants for one. Care to explain that to me? That's one big fucking warning sign that says "don't vote for that guy!" Remember, he and his father are "one." So that means he was there and he commanded that. "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." ~1 Samuel 15:3 Reading the entire book of Samuel helps in understanding this verse and event. Here's the background: This took place in the bronze age. The Amaleks were a powerful tribe.They were nomadic roaming, plundering, stealing and killing killing all those in their path. They were people who had set themselves totally and irrevocably against God and Israel.They practiced genocide and were bent on totally destroying Israel. Concerning the order to destroy the Amaleks: Israel was fighting it's very existence. I will have to double check, I can't remember at the moment, but I think part of this(some commentators say all) was fulfilled by famine and a plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 And God needed people to kill them and couldn't just do it himself? Piss weak! Just like the Holy Army of God who think they are commissioned to wage war on sin(Christians) and don't stop and think "can't God do his own shit and instead have to rely on us bumbling fools to get the job done?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 And God needed people to kill them and couldn't just do it himself? Piss weak! Just like the Holy Army of God who think they are commissioned to wage war on sin(Christians) and don't stop and think "can't God do his own shit and instead have to rely on us bumbling fools to get the job done?" Exactly. If God is all powerful then there is no danger. There is no need. All that exists is what God causes to happen. Everything is drama on God's stage. When babies die it's because God made it happen. God chooses how. So when God orders his followers to do the deed that is simply illustrating how God gets his kicks. That is the natural consequence of an all powerful God. Good thing God is only imaginary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. Fuck that, TinPony. In what kind of parallel universe does six hours equate to eternity? And jesus didn't really die and go to hell; he rose again after a whopping three days. How is that anything at all like an individual suffering eternal conscious torment? ...six hours equate eternity? I don't know the answer to that one. I'm not God. That was a writers attempt to put what happen on the cross in words. I think what Jesus experienced on the cross is way beyond my comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtify Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What Jesus supposedly suffered on the cross could not possibly equate to the suffering of even one person in hell for eternity. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest afireinside Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What Jesus supposedly suffered on the cross could not possibly equate to the suffering of even one person in hell for eternity. That is incomprehensible!! What's a cross? Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of children live with every day is worse than a few hours on a cross. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. So 6 hours on the cross=eternity in hell. Seems legit. Alternatively(assuming its true) he could only tolerate hell for 6 hours, something he has comdemned all humanity to. Justice ftw. Hate to say it but other people have suffered more than Jesus. He got to check out after 6 hours. The real suffering are those people whose pain doesn't kill them and they have to live with it for years. And most of these people aren't fortunate to have a 2.1 billion person fan base. They are just obscure people who daily suffer more than the mythological Jesus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. Fuck that, TinPony. In what kind of parallel universe does six hours equate to eternity? And jesus didn't really die and go to hell; he rose again after a whopping three days. How is that anything at all like an individual suffering eternal conscious torment? ...six hours equate eternity? I don't know the answer to that one. I'm not God. That was a writers attempt to put what happen on the cross in words. I think what Jesus experienced on the cross is way beyond my comprehension. The general expectation by Christians for Christians is that they dont attempt to figure out those things that seem absurd or contradictory. Just accept something that doesn't make sense. And keep that 10% of your income rolling in to the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 I believe because I believe because I believe because I believe. What else do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted April 28, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted April 28, 2014 And yet Passover and Jesus are a-okay...?The story of Noah The story of Sodom & Gomorrah The story of Passover The story of Job The story of Abraham and Isaac Why celebrate stories of God killing or willing the deaths of innocent people? It's fucked up. True justice is God going to hell forever in our place. Your sentence, "True justice is God going to hell forever in our place." is close to what happened. True justice would be us going to hell. Instead Jesus took our place. One writer I read put it this way....six hours of eternity on a cross. Fuck that, TinPony. In what kind of parallel universe does six hours equate to eternity? And jesus didn't really die and go to hell; he rose again after a whopping three days. How is that anything at all like an individual suffering eternal conscious torment? ...six hours equate eternity? I don't know the answer to that one. I'm not God. That was a writers attempt to put what happen on the cross in words. I think what Jesus experienced on the cross is way beyond my comprehension. So, you can explain to us exactly what was on the mind of the most high god when he ordered the slaughter of innocent Amalekite children, but you can't explain the difference between 6 hours and eternity? Here's a hint, 6 hours has an end; eternity doesn't. Besides that, for all the pain and suffering jesus has caused in this world, 6 hours on a cross was too good a death for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Every Easter in the Philippines true believerstm volunteer to be crucified. Some of them are nailed hands and feet. Some of them stay up longer than Jesus did in the stories. And they will get right back up next year and do it again. http://www.google.com/search?q=philippine+crucifixion&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=kVFeU_S8LYaKyASU84G4Bg&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1882&bih=969 It can't be that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Ah yes, but Jesus go to Hell or to Hades when he died? (Hint: The two aren't the same. One place is temporary and one place is eternal.) Hades is the temporary storage place for the spirits of the dead who wait until Jesus returns on Judgement Day. Then the dead are raised in new, imperishable bodies, judged and then either cast into Hell or enter into Heaven. Hell is the eternal Lake of Fire, as described in the book of Revelation. Hades is a temporary place that will cease to exist when God destroys it. On the island of Patmos, when the apostle John heard a voice, he turned and saw the risen and glorified Jesus, who spoke to him. Revelation 1: 17 - 18 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on meand said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Jesus holds the keys to Hades. It is a locker room. A warehouse. A place of temporary storage, not a place of eternal suffering. Hades is not Hell. Hell is the eternally-burning lake of sulfurous fire. (See Revelation 19:20, 20:10 & 21:8) Revelation 20: 11 - 15. The Judgment of the Dead11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Hades will be destroyed in Hell, the lake of fire. Having served it purpose (as a repository for the spirits of the dead) Hades will be destroyed. So, let's recap. 1. When Jesus died, he went to Hades, not Hell. 2. Hades is temporary and will be destroyed after Judgement day. 3. Hell is eternal. It's the lake of fiery, never-ending torment - the final destination of sinners after they are raised from death and judged by God. 4. Therefore, Jesus did not enter Hell when he died. Hell didn't exist then, over two thousand years ago - but (according to scripture) it will exist eternally, at some point in the future, after Judgement Day. 5. Therefore, the Christian claim that Jesus suffered in Hell is false! 6. Therefore, we should not trust any Christian who claims that Jesus went to hell. Because he didn't! 7. So there's no comparison between the eternal suffering of sinners in Hell and the whatever Jesus experienced in Hades! The two places and two experiences are not the same! Someone is either lying or mistaken or perhaps... both! Thanks, BAA 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Oh and btw... 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 confirm that Jesus did... NOT ...suffer in the sulphurous flames of the lake of fire, a la Revelation. According to scripture, that place will only exist in the future and is the ultimate fate of sinners and fallen angels - once they have been judged by God. In the meantime, dead humans and living angels are kept in Hades/Tartarus/darkness until the day of judgement. 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [Tartarus], putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgement; " Jude 1:6 "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling - these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgement on the great Day." Then they are judged and thrown into the lake of fire... which is Hell. Jesus never went to that place, will never go to that place and will experience everlasting torment. Even if he did suffer in Hades, he could comfort himself with the foreknowledge that his stay there would be brief and would come to an end. Whereas, the sinners who will thrash and scream the sulphurous flames of Hell will know that their suffering will... NEVER END...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted April 28, 2014 Author Share Posted April 28, 2014 IH's own explanation: Because Amelek was attacking Israel, Israel's only response was to kill all men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. This just shows how depraved and immoral the Christian mindset is. Germany was also committing genocide of the Jewish population in the 30s and 40s. Should the Allies have in turn committed genocide and killed every single German? That was yaweh/jesus/allah's chosen course of action. Good job, Christian soldier. You're an immoral thug. In the old testament, yaweh/jesus/allah commands the genocide of non-jews. In the new testament, the same yaweh/jesus/allah commits the genocide of all non-Christians. For the record, I don't hesitate comparing ancient Hebrew barbarism with Nazi barbarism with Christian end-time barbarism. It just shows that violence is the means with which you all solve your problems. Equally disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I don't know the answer to that one. I'm not God. That was a writers attempt to put what happen on the cross in words. I think what Jesus experienced on the cross is way beyond my comprehension. ironhorse\ Not only are you not god; the most critical points about your god you can't explain. You have no idea why god would do many things described in the bible that are clearly the antithesis of what god should do. These acts of god are malicious, cruel beyond measure, mean, painful, unfair, hateful, discriminatory, egregious, groundless, disgusting and every other negative adjective you can think of. But you love him. Why? Because he will save you. It's about you. Might makes right as long as you are saved. You take the bible that if says you believe in his son you will be saved. Yet this book also describes these horrible acts against people, including babies, for gawd's sake. He orders the killing of every person and animals of people in a foreign land. But, hey, you're saved, that's what counts. Why would elect to believe in a god who did all those egregious acts which are set forth in the same source for your salvation? Why did this not cause you to doubt? When you decided to believe did you give any thought to the kind god you were selecting? Don't you think god owes you an explanation for his evil acts. Why do you believe in god without such an explanation? If another god promised you salvation, plus 70 plus virgins why would you accept the bible god? All of these horrible deeds with no explanation. Yet you believe based upon "faith", which means based upon nothing. It makes no sense at all. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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