Popular Post WarriorPoet Posted December 24, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted December 24, 2014 There's a story that I heard many times back in the days when I was a church regular. I'm sure many of you have heard it as well, but in case you haven't, it goes like this. A very faithful man lived in a town in a low lying area. One spring, due to a large amount of snow melting in the mountains and heavier than normal rainfall his town was threatened by a very serious flood. Most of the people evacuated, but he had faith that god would protect him, so he ramained at his home. Eventually the flood did come and it was very severe. The man was able to reach temporary safety on the roof of his house, but it was clearly only a matter of time before the waters would overtop his house and sweep him away to certain death. At this point, the incredibly faithful man prayed to god for deliverance. After some time had passed, a man in a canoe came floating down towards the man on his roof. He yelled "get in my canoe and I will take you to safety". The man on the roof replied, "be on your way, god will save me". A little while later a family who was escaping in their fishing boat arrived at the house. They shouted to the man, "get in our boat and we will take you to safety". The man replied "god will save me". Later a helicopter from the national guard appeared over the house. Through the PA the pilot said "climb the rope ladder to the helicopter and we will take you to safety". The man shouted back "no, god will save me". Eventually the flood waters reached the peak of the man's house, he was swept away and he drowned. He then found himself standing in the throne room of god. He asked "lord, I prayed for deliverence from the flood and you didn't save me, why didn't you help me when I needed you?" God replied "I sent a canoe, I sent a fishing boat, I even sent a helicopter, what more did you want me to do?" Story ends, there's some polite chuckling from the members of the congregation and the pastor goes into the explanation of the point of the story, about recognizing when god is helping you and communicating with you etc... I see a different point to this story, and it is the fundamental problem with faith. No believer could ever fault the man from the story for not having enough faith. His faith is what led him to expect the wrong outcome. He was clearly expecting a miraculous event that would save him from drowning in the flood. He was so faithful, that he refused to let others save him three times over. His faith was wrong, and it was a large part of what led to his death. If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world. For the christians, I know that you have faith. I'm sure that your faith is strong and unshakable, you certainly have "enough" faith. The problem is, you can not possibly know that you have faith in the right thing. How can you possibly be so sure that when you die, you won't find your entrance into heavan being denied? How can you know that god won't look at you and say, "I sent my prophet Muhammad, I inspired him to write the qur'an, I directed my followers to build many mosques around the world so that those that were seeking the truth could find it. What more did you want me to do?" 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. Christ said you should give me $500. Take it on faith. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. Christ said you should give me $500. Take it on faith. If you give me time, I could contact Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer to send me the check to send you but I bet they would require me to send a seed donation first. Do you have 500 I can borrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. Christ said you should give me $500. Take it on faith. If you give me time, I could contact Benny Hinn or Joyce Meyer to send me the check to send you but I bet they would require me to send a seed donation first. Do you have 500 I can borrow? See, you don't really take it on faith. Now kindly answer WP's question and admit you have no way of knowing your faith is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Bwahahahahahaha ok MANY have claimed they are god… there are people TODAY who make this claim, people throughout the ages have made this claim (the Buddha did not, however) and here we are back at the beginning.. assertions without evidence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_have_been_considered_deities http://www.oddee.com/item_98878.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. I assume that you wouldn't believe me if I said that I was god. Even if I managed to gain my own group of followers and they would tell you about many amazing miracles that they would claim to have seen me perform. Why is so much weight given to the claims of this particular guy? And what about all of the people that Ravenstar just referenced? If you are willing to just take the words of the bible on faith and without question, how is that different than believing that I or any of these people are god? What logically consistent basis can you give for having faith in one person but rejecting all of the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. Hi, Ironhorse. I want you to know that I am God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deidre Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I used to like that parable, but now...seeing it with an objective, non-believer lens, I realize that it seems to imply we should solely rely on God...having 'that' kind of faith. And throw caution to the wind, and forget about employing common sense or critical thinking. But, even though he died, believers will still feel 'that's ok,' because the man is heading for heaven. Faith impairs critical thinking. An atheist would have lived in that scenario. lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. this means nothing. I claim that cheese is the savior... my god balooby said so. your words contain no content. they are hollow and dry. I could say because blah blah claims to be and find at least one sucker born yesteday that would buy it. Who knew the world would have like a billion all at once. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 24, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. We chose to place our faith in you when you promised to address the many questions and counter-points made against your claims. You then chose to break that promise and address nothing. Now we no longer trust you or have faith in you. Your faith in christ will eventually prove to be as useless as our faith in you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. There's a growing body of evidence that reality has always existed and never required a Creator to bring it into existence. Therefore the need for faith will shortly disappear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all. I'll re-word what I'm asking. How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith? With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one. That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct. My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. His claim is rendered false by the failure of Genesis 1 : 1 to adequately describe reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 IronHorses appropriate answer should have been "Jesus proved his divine nature by performing many miracles." However, there is no evidence for those miracles. Saying it's in the Bible is the Fallacy of Authority. The Bible stories can't be authenticated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Faith is recognized as the foundational requirement for religion, but faith in what? In retrospect I realize my faith, the thing that held me captive, was a belief that the gospels were written by eyewitnesses to the events they recorded. My faith, in reality, was based on the belief the events recorded in the gospels were witnessed by the authors of the text. I now realize my "faith" was really based on the testimony of men named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Because I believed those men existed and witnessed the things they wrote about I was able to proclaim, by faith, that Jesus was a real person who was the creator God in disguise and that his sacrifice would "hopefully" grant me enteral life in His presence. Because I believed it all happened just as it was recorded in the gospels I could ignore all the contradictions and inconsistencies in the bible as well as a lot of other troubling problems. The day I read Bart Ehrman's book, Who Wrote The Bible and Why It Matters, my faith took a major hit. That lead me to read a number of other religious scholars critical analysis of the Bible and the Christian religion, and that led me to reject my "faith" and religion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted December 27, 2014 Share Posted December 27, 2014 I see a different point to this story, and it is the fundamental problem with faith. No believer could ever fault the man from the story for not having enough faith. His faith is what led him to expect the wrong outcome. He was clearly expecting a miraculous event that would save him from drowning in the flood. He was so faithful, that he refused to let others save him three times over. His faith was wrong, and it was a large part of what led to his death. Wow, so are you saying that Spirit will raise up from amongst us individuals with words of truth and we are required to hear them? If not, then you must have a hole in your boat. If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The writing is on the wall. Prov 23:9 The answer: After reading that, I can't help but think of the Christopher Hitchens quote. "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in him would believe anything." Hitchens 3:16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorPoet Posted December 28, 2014 Author Share Posted December 28, 2014 I see a different point to this story, and it is the fundamental problem with faith. No believer could ever fault the man from the story for not having enough faith. His faith is what led him to expect the wrong outcome. He was clearly expecting a miraculous event that would save him from drowning in the flood. He was so faithful, that he refused to let others save him three times over. His faith was wrong, and it was a large part of what led to his death. Wow, so are you saying that Spirit will raise up from amongst us individuals with words of truth and we are required to hear them? If not, then you must have a hole in your boat. Nope, not saying that at all, just pointing out that faith can be wrong. The strength of faith has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of it. The story I referenced was only a fictional representation of that. If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The writing is on the wall. Prov 23:9 That verse is as follows, "Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words." IH completely missed the point of my op earlier, and you appear to be doing that now. Sure, you believe the message of the bible, but then you have to have faith that the bible is correct. You have faith in christianity, but you also need to have faith that it is correct religion, with the correct god. Once again, this is just "faith in faith" which when you get to the bottom of it, that is the foundation of all other aspects of faith in christianity. The answer: After reading that, I can't help but think of the Christopher Hitchens quote. "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in him would believe anything." Hitchens 3:16 Clever quote, most of what Hitch said was pretty clever or intelligent. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by including it here. Maybe you could explain a bit more. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 "If you're ever discussing religion with a believer, eventually it will probably get to the point where they say, "you have to have faith". But therein lies the problem, how can we be sure that having faith in what they believe is correct? The answer: that requires faith as well. There is no foundation based in fact, the faith is built on layer upon layer of uncertainty. You have absolutely no way of knowing that faith in the god of the bible is correct. Muslims have faith that is just as strong as that of any christian, so do hindus, and so do the followers of many other religions of this world." ~WarriorPoet You right. It is all about faith. I have chosen to place my faith in Christ. Yes. We know. You've told us. Repeatingly. No one cares. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted December 28, 2014 Share Posted December 28, 2014 Ironhorse, you have chosen to place your faith in a lie. That is why we don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rerics Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Even assuming that the person had faith in God, and it was absolutely certain that their faith is the correct faith, there is still a problem--their isn't any way for this person to know exactly what God's saving action would be. They therefore would not be able to take advantage of the saving action should it come their way, since they don't know if they are supposd to use the boad, the helicopter, or wait for an immediate cessation of the flood waters, or a miraculous levitation of this person from their rooftop to safety. Faith has no value if the entity that you have faith in is silent and makes it's intentions impossible to decipher. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted December 29, 2014 Share Posted December 29, 2014 Luke 13:11-1211 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 29, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted December 29, 2014 Luke 13:11-12 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And the wolf yelled, "Little pig, little pig, let me in". And the pig replied, "Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin." Same genre, different story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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