The Faith Problem

[BrotherJosh]

 

 

 

The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words

What doctrines were removed?

 

Here's a few

 

they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty)

 

They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god)

 

Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others)

 

 

 

 

[Guest Furball]

 

 

 

 

The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words

What doctrines were removed?

 

Here's a few

 

they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty)

 

They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god)

 

Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others)

 

 

 

 

 

Whatever it takes to get through those pearly gates

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith.

 

And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15

"we are of all men most miserable."

On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. 

 

As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion.

 

When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace

 

p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. 

 

 

 

"The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in."

 

 

I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show.

 

So? That doesn't mean anything.  Answer the question.  Why do you act in contradiction with this part of the bible?  Aren't you supposed to have dusted off your sandals or something?

 

 

If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people.

 

Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news.

 

That is what I have been doing. In person and online.

 

1. Your in violation of scripture hanging out with the ungodly

2.If you have spread your good news on here, then why do you keep coming back? You should leave then if you have already shared your version of the gospel.

3.I haven't heard your version of the gospel. Which version are you peddling? Maybe you'll get me saved.

 

I am not mocking you. Please tell me your version of what you think the good news is.

 

 

 

1. I’m free. I’m not violating any scriptures being here.

2. I’m here to represent a Christian view and to try to explain objections or answer questions the best I can. I don’t claim to know everything. The most important thing is to read and study on your own to reach a personal understanding. Not just from a Christian viewpoint, but from all viewpoints.

3. I don’t have my own version of the Gospel. The scriptures put it in one sentence; For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. ~John 2:16

 

 

[mymistake]

 I’m here to represent a Christian view and to try to explain objections or answer questions the best I can. 

 

Now that is funny!  Why is it that God always chooses the same kind of people as His representatives that aliens choose to abduct?

 

However, kudos to you for being open about your mission.  That was honest and took guts.  I can respect that.

[Ravenstar]

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

[ironhorse]

 

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

 

 

Yes a typo. 

 

Thanks for pointing it out. I have to remember to check before posting 

[mymistake]

 

 

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

 

 

Yes a typo. 

 

Thanks for pointing it out. I have to remember to check before posting 

 

 

 

Hey I make typos too.  In fact I make spelling and grammar errors all the time so I understand that.

 

But Jesus didn't send me as his representative.

 

Why is it that Jesus can never find a human representative who can form a valid argument for God's existence?

[ironhorse]

 

 

 

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

 

 

Yes a typo. 

 

Thanks for pointing it out. I have to remember to check before posting 

 

 

 

Hey I make typos too.  In fact I make spelling and grammar errors all the time so I understand that.

 

But Jesus didn't send me as his representative.

 

Why is it that Jesus can never find a human representative who can form a valid argument for God's existence?

 

 

 

The best answer I have heard is this:

 

 

"A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol."

 

~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[Ravenstar]

Why?  Why would it be an idol?  That doesn't make sense, you can't be an idol of yourself.  An idol is an image or representation of something, not the something itself.

 

WAIT!!!!  We are (supposedly) made in god's image.. does that make US idols?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

1. I’m free. I’m not violating any scriptures being here.

2. I’m here to represent a Christian view and to try to explain objections or answer questions the best I can. 

 

Actually, Ironhorse, because of your lies and broken promises, which you repeat in your point #2 above, I might add, you are in violation of quite a number of scriptures.  Here are just a few:

 

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV / 145 helpful votes

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 12:22 ESV / 113 helpful votes

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Revelation 21:8 ESV / 53 helpful votes

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV / 50 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Exodus 20:16 ESV / 28 helpful votes

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ephesians 4:15 ESV / 24 helpful votes

Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,

Proverbs 13:5 ESV / 23 helpful votes

The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace.

Revelation 21:27 ESV / 19 helpful votes

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*text pulled from: http://www.openbible.info/topics/god_hates_liars

[mymistake]

 

 

 

 

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

 

 

Yes a typo. 

 

Thanks for pointing it out. I have to remember to check before posting 

 

 

 

Hey I make typos too.  In fact I make spelling and grammar errors all the time so I understand that.

 

But Jesus didn't send me as his representative.

 

Why is it that Jesus can never find a human representative who can form a valid argument for God's existence?

 

 

 

The best answer I have heard is this:

 

 

"A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol."

 

~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

 

That isn't a very good answer.  Perhaps Bonhoeffer wasn't very bright or he was looking to make money off of some people who were not very bright.

 

Ironically, you worship an idol yet you think idolatry is morally wrong.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

John 2:16?    

16 For all that is in the world—xthe desires of the flesh and ythe desires of the eyes and pride of life3—is not from the Father but is from the world.

 

A typo IH?, Freudian slip?  lol… just joking.  Pretty sure you meant John 3:16.

 

 

Yes a typo. 

 

Thanks for pointing it out. I have to remember to check before posting 

 

 

 

Hey I make typos too.  In fact I make spelling and grammar errors all the time so I understand that.

 

But Jesus didn't send me as his representative.

 

Why is it that Jesus can never find a human representative who can form a valid argument for God's existence?

 

 

 

The best answer I have heard is this:

 

 

"A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol."

 

~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

 

What about a god who provides us with extra-biblical evidence of his existence, Ironhorse?

 

What evidence do you see?

 

Do tell.

[♦ ficino ♦]

The best answer I have heard is this:

 

 

"A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol."

 

~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

It's noble that Bonhoeffer resisted Hitler.  The above quotation is just dumb.

[bdp]

...and 'god' ISN'T an idol?

[bornagainathiest]

...and 'god' ISN'T an idol?

 

Not according to Bonhoeffer's definition, BDP.

 

He uses the scriptural definition of an idol.

It's a thing (or these days, an idea or concept) that isn't God, but which people put their trust and faith in.  However, the pivotal point of Bonhoeffer's quote is his use of the word, 'prove'.  If God's existence is proven, then He is a FACT and there's no longer any need for faith.  Christianity without faith becomes idolatry.  That is what Bonhoeffer's getting at.  

.

.

.

So it's in the interest of God to give evidence (but not proof) of His existence - to promote faith among Christians.

Ironhorse is on record as saying that he sees this evidence in the universe and I keep asking him to tell us what this evidence is (see post # 112)...

 

...so that we can examine (and destroy) it.

.

.

.

But of course he won't do that.

If Ironhorse doesn't make the play he can't lose. (Or so he thinks.)  But, the lurkers take note of his reluctance to present his evidence and that makes him a...

 

 

 

...because he's driving them away from Christ by that kind of behavior.

[Guest Furball]

Ray Comforts definition of an idol as per the second of the ten commandments: any image you make with your hands or your mind.

 

When he preaches to people to condemn them he uses this logic:

 

Ray Comfort: You shall not make a graven image with your hands or your mind. Whereas you say my god isn't a god of wrath and justice, but a god of love and mercy, he would never create hell and if he did, surely he wouldn't put me there. I would agree with you, he could never create hell or put you there because he doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination, the place of imagery. You have said i am the potter you (god ) are the clay. You have shaped a god or a jesus that you are more comfortable with in your own mind. It's called idolatry, it's the oldest sin in the book and the bible says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of god. 

 

that's what i remember him telling people on the street as far as an "idol" is concerned. 

[Penguin]

I have only ever met one Christian who has admitted he has faith in faith. He says that he has absolutely no way of knowing for certain that what he believes is true. He admits that he could be entirely wrong about all of it. Most Christians have become delusional to the point that they "can't be wrong, because God confirms their faith." They can't admit that their faith isn't 100%, because it's either a commentary on them or a commentary on God, rather than a commentary on reality.

[mymistake]

Ray Comforts definition of an idol as per the second of the ten commandments: any image you make with your hands or your mind.

 

When he preaches to people to condemn them he uses this logic:

 

Ray Comfort: You shall not make a graven image with your hands or your mind. Whereas you say my god isn't a god of wrath and justice, but a god of love and mercy, he would never create hell and if he did, surely he wouldn't put me there. I would agree with you, he could never create hell or put you there because he doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination, the place of imagery. You have said i am the potter you (god ) are the clay. You have shaped a god or a jesus that you are more comfortable with in your own mind. It's called idolatry, it's the oldest sin in the book and the bible says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of god. 

 

that's what i remember him telling people on the street as far as an "idol" is concerned. 

 

 

So now Christians are not even allowed to imagine what God looks like.

 

What a mind fook.

[Guest Furball]

 

Ray Comforts definition of an idol as per the second of the ten commandments: any image you make with your hands or your mind.

 

When he preaches to people to condemn them he uses this logic:

 

Ray Comfort: You shall not make a graven image with your hands or your mind. Whereas you say my god isn't a god of wrath and justice, but a god of love and mercy, he would never create hell and if he did, surely he wouldn't put me there. I would agree with you, he could never create hell or put you there because he doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination, the place of imagery. You have said i am the potter you (god ) are the clay. You have shaped a god or a jesus that you are more comfortable with in your own mind. It's called idolatry, it's the oldest sin in the book and the bible says idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of god. 

 

that's what i remember him telling people on the street as far as an "idol" is concerned. 

 

 

So now Christians are not even allowed to imagine what God looks like.

 

What a mind fook.

 

yeah, not according mr R.C.

 

it does get to be too much to handle sometimes doesn't it?

[Guest Furball]

Most Christians have become delusional to the point that they "can't be wrong, because God confirms their faith." They can't admit that their faith isn't 100%, because it's either a commentary on them or a commentary on God, rather than a commentary on reality.

That my friend is wherein the problem lies, it takes a miracle of nature to wake these people out of their brainwashed stupor

[2PhiloVoid]

 

 

 

You right. It is all about faith.

 

I have chosen to place my faith in Christ.

I know you have, but that isn't addressing my post at all.

 

I'll re-word what I'm asking.  How do you get around the fact that on some level, what you really have is faith in faith?  With all the different religions in the world, you have no way of knowing how to pick the right one.  That leaves you with having to have faith that your faith is correct.

 

 

WarriorPoet,

 

...although it may sound corny, one could look at the 'possible religious suitors' and deem Jesus as the most attractive; Christ could have an aesthetic appeal, up and above, or along with, rational considerations.  In some ways, this is how I 'buddied up' with my wife, choosing her over and against other possible women.

 

Just a thought.

[WarriorPoet]

WarriorPoet,

 

...although it may sound corny, one could look at the 'possible religious suitors' and deem Jesus as the most attractive; Christ could have an aesthetic appeal, up and above, or along with, rational considerations.  In some ways, this is how I 'buddied up' with my wife, choosing her over and against other possible women.

 

Just a thought.

 

Let me start off by saying that this is not an answer that I would have ever expected from a believer of any religion, nor is it one that I even considered as a possibility when I wrote my op.  It is refreshing to be surprised every now and then.

 

That being said, I see some serious issues with the thought you expressed here.  I certainly can understand how christ and christianity can appear to be the more attractive option when comparing the various religions and their leaders/founders to the others, however the attractiveness of a belief or any idea gives you absolutely no information as to the validity of it.  You are gambling with some seriously high stakes if you think that there is a possibility that one religion may be right, and you are judging them on such a flimsy basis as which one appears to be the most attractive of the options.

 

I am a happily married man myself, but your analogy about "buddying up" with the person that becomes your spouse falls apart when you look at what led to the marriage.  I spent 3 years dating and getting to know my wife before we said our vows.  This was a two-way interaction.  I asked questions, she answered.  She asked questions, I answered.  We had real interactions, it wasn't a case of me reading a book about her written by people I've never met and just believing she was the person represented by them.  I didn't call her number and just leave voicemails with the assumption that she would make her personality known to me and do the things that I wanted or expected.  We discussed these things with each other at length.  We were able to clearly state our needs and desires and accommodate or compromise with each other.  This is not possible with the god or gods worshiped in any religion.  Sure, you may believe that you are learning about his/her/their true properties.  You may think that they are affecting reality in ways that are consistent to what you ask of them in you prayers.  But you have no way of knowing whether someone "up there" is helping you out or it is the laws of chance just happening to work out to your advantage.

[2PhiloVoid]

 

WarriorPoet,

 

...although it may sound corny, one could look at the 'possible religious suitors' and deem Jesus as the most attractive; Christ could have an aesthetic appeal, up and above, or along with, rational considerations.  In some ways, this is how I 'buddied up' with my wife, choosing her over and against other possible women.

 

Just a thought.

 

Let me start off by saying that this is not an answer that I would have ever expected from a believer of any religion, nor is it one that I even considered as a possibility when I wrote my op.  It is refreshing to be surprised every now and then.

 

That being said, I see some serious issues with the thought you expressed here.  I certainly can understand how christ and christianity can appear to be the more attractive option when comparing the various religions and their leaders/founders to the others, however the attractiveness of a belief or any idea gives you absolutely no information as to the validity of it.  You are gambling with some seriously high stakes if you think that there is a possibility that one religion may be right, and you are judging them on such a flimsy basis as which one appears to be the most attractive of the options.

 

I am a happily married man myself, but your analogy about "buddying up" with the person that becomes your spouse falls apart when you look at what led to the marriage.  I spent 3 years dating and getting to know my wife before we said our vows.  This was a two-way interaction.  I asked questions, she answered.  She asked questions, I answered.  We had real interactions, it wasn't a case of me reading a book about her written by people I've never met and just believing she was the person represented by them.  I didn't call her number and just leave voicemails with the assumption that she would make her personality known to me and do the things that I wanted or expected.  We discussed these things with each other at length.  We were able to clearly state our needs and desires and accommodate or compromise with each other.  This is not possible with the god or gods worshiped in any religion.  Sure, you may believe that you are learning about his/her/their true properties.  You may think that they are affecting reality in ways that are consistent to what you ask of them in you prayers.  But you have no way of knowing whether someone "up there" is helping you out or it is the laws of chance just happening to work out to your advantage.

 

 

 Hey Warrior Poet,

 

Thanks for responding to my prior comment. I can see you had some solid ideas regarding it (I'd call it scrutiny, but that sounds too painful.) Give me another day to gather some thoughts in reply and, if you wish, Carry On...

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

[♦ ficino ♦]

...although it may sound corny, one could look at the 'possible religious suitors' and deem Jesus as the most attractive; Christ could have an aesthetic appeal, up and above, or along with, rational considerations.  In some ways, this is how I 'buddied up' with my wife, choosing her over and against other possible women.

 

Just a thought.

I don't think this is a bad answer. It reminds me of the impression I had about Augustine: he was convinced of Neo-Platonism, but it's as though in Jesus he found the Form of the Beautiful came to have a human face.

 

But it also reminds me of how I got into Christianity in the first place, and how I got out of it. In a nutshell, I had a powerful experience that started off my faith. Later, I had a string of experiences that slowly let the air out of it, topped by another powerful experience that toppled what was left. I came away thinking of the many testimonies I'd heard, about how experiences led people to Christ, and how they found a richer life. And then, others experience the opposite. Many of us on here experienced both ends of the road. So we're left thinking that really, the religion thing is all in our head, the good and the bad alike.

[sdelsolray]

Of course, there's another choice, a quasi-null hypothesis --- no religion, no sky fairies, no superstition, no supernatural inventions.