Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 11, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted January 11, 2015 So far, Ordinary Clay, you are the only one to have made a claim. You claimed to have evidence. When called upon to present it, you want to start arguing semantics. This is a pretty standard M.O. for you. If you have evidence, present it; if you make a claim, support it. This ain't rocket science, son. The Teleological argument is tangible evidence in the same fashion that an argument such as an empirical argument is tangible evidence in science. The difference, though, is that the empirical argument in science must be backed up by hard data. For example, evolution is the most likely manner in which speciation occurs. This can be demonstrated by placing selective pressures upon several generations of e. coli and then quantifying the changes in the DNA and how said changes made the bacteria more well adapted to their environment. Given the right conditions, e. coli can reproduce every 20 minutes; so such an experiment would not take very long. The finely tuned universe argument, however, is not backed up by any hard data. It is only backed up by a series of assumptions which must be accepted first so that the argument will make sense. This is the same as having to accept something by faith rather than facts. It is also, incidentally, the reason you claim to have tangible evidence but consistently fail to produce it for members of the scientific community to examine. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My belief in, and acceptance of, Jesus Christ is rational in that while it's true I ultimately have faith that Christ is who He says He is, that faith is corroborated by evidence which is tangible, logical and reasonable. Feel free to present your tangible evidence any time you'd like. I remind you, this is not the first time you've claimed to have it; nor is it the first time I have asked you to present it. Are you familiar with the Teleological Argument? Most well versed atheists are, no? Is an argument tangible? Is an empirical claim tangible? Have I made one? Ah ... No, obviously not, let me explain. It's generally agreed that science makes tangible claims, but yet the very bases of science is based on an intangible argument. Agreed by whom? Cite your source or have your claim (It's generally agreed...) dismissed as an unsupported assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 My answer: Because of Jesus' claim that he was God. Nobody knows if there was a 'jesus' much less if it ever claimed to be 'god.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 OC's back, eh? Lovely...SO glad I blocked his inane personage ages ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 So far, Ordinary Clay, you are the only one to have made a claim. You claimed to have evidence. When called upon to present it, you want to start arguing semantics. This is a pretty standard M.O. for you. If you have evidence, present it; if you make a claim, support it. This ain't rocket science, son. The Teleological argument is tangible evidence in the same fashion that an argument such as an empirical argument is tangible evidence in science. TANGIBLE EVIDENCE tan·gi·ble ˈtanjəb(ə)l/ adjective 1. perceptible by touch. "the atmosphere of neglect and abandonment was almost tangible" synonyms: touchable, palpable, material, physical, real, substantial, corporeal,solid, concrete; More noun 1. a thing that is perceptible by touch. Talk is cheap, honey. Cough up the TANGIBLE evidence. Bearing false witness is a sin. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 bump I'm going to take BAA's method and keep track of dishonesty and non-answers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Sooooo… archaic English is the true language of god? bwahahahahahahaha According to the fiction pushers it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words What doctrines were removed? Here's a few they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty) They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god) Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words What doctrines were removed? Here's a few they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty) They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god) Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words What doctrines were removed? Here's a few they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty) They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god) Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others) Personally I trust NASB as being true to the early texts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rach Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The man reported to have saved orphans by prayer and faith is called George Mueller. His experiences providing for the orphans by means of "faith" seem to be well documented. It is a great mystery to me. Kind of makes me believe in god, but one I hate all the worse, for his favoritism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words What doctrines were removed? Here's a few they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty) They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god) Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others) Personally I trust NASB as being true to the early texts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible Hey o.c.-I think you missed the point. The translations you have listed above has jesus telling them to strive to enter if they want to be saved. The earliest one has jesus showing that with all their striving they were still not going to enter because salvation is dependant upon god, not their striving. I hope this helps. -peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The kjv also omits 20% of the tyndale text and also removes doctrines and words What doctrines were removed? Here's a few they removed the word election from galatians chapter 4 (gods sovereignty) They removed the words I AM from the synoptic gospels and replaced those words with it is i (jesus isn't god) Luke 13:24-says to strive to enter through the straight gate-making it sound like we have to do something to enter heaven. The earliest says strive amongst yourselves to enter through the narrow gate. Saying that they were struggling to enter but to no avail. William tyndale commenting on this verse says that when the blood of the covenant in christ is hidden, then do men pain themselves with holy works but all in vain. (the doctrine of free will salvation vs. god's sovereign salvation-election of some-refusal of others) Re-read it again, it sounds like it is saying the same thing, but it isn't. -peace (the oldest version of it vs. the newest) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. So? That doesn't mean anything. Answer the question. Why do you act in contradiction with this part of the bible? Aren't you supposed to have dusted off your sandals or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. So? That doesn't mean anything. Answer the question. Why do you act in contradiction with this part of the bible? Aren't you supposed to have dusted off your sandals or something? If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people. Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news. That is what I have been doing. In person and online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people. Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news. That is what I have been doing. In person and online. It isn't good news. When you obey your imaginary friend you annoy all the real people around you. It's rude. This Gospel of yours is one of the most vile ideas ever invented. God wants to kill us all because God created an unfair test for our ancestors (even though it is only a myth) and God knew they would fail but he created us all anyway so that most of us can be tortured in hell forever. It's stupid on every level. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 What mymistake said. It's not good news. It's horrible, and it's shit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. So? That doesn't mean anything. Answer the question. Why do you act in contradiction with this part of the bible? Aren't you supposed to have dusted off your sandals or something? If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people. Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news. That is what I have been doing. In person and online. ...and hippie Jesus begat hippie Jesus follower. Hippie Jesus follower begat Ironhorse, who became a keyboard apostle, and dwelt among us. Nice try, IH. I think you've spread your good news as best you can, and you really should dust your sandals, as FreeThinker puts it. Lay your hands on the sick and they will recover, Jesus said. Have you emptied out any hospitals lately? Maybe you are saving that excitement for another day? Have you noticed that we are not "non church" people, but ex-church people? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. So? That doesn't mean anything. Answer the question. Why do you act in contradiction with this part of the bible? Aren't you supposed to have dusted off your sandals or something? If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people. Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news. That is what I have been doing. In person and online. 1. Your in violation of scripture hanging out with the ungodly 2.If you have spread your good news on here, then why do you keep coming back? You should leave then if you have already shared your version of the gospel. 3.I haven't heard your version of the gospel. Which version are you peddling? Maybe you'll get me saved. I am not mocking you. Please tell me your version of what you think the good news is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted January 18, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted January 18, 2015 If you have read my profile you should know that I have spent a lot of years hanging out with non-church people. Jesus said to go into the world and spread the good news. That is what I have been doing. In person and online. When you hang out with non-church people in person, do you also make promises to them that you don't keep? Or is that just part of your online persona? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I see, what I believe, are signs of a creator God. I see, what I believe, are answers to my questions on the meaning of life in the scriptures and in Christ. Those are the reasons of my faith. And I agree, if the Christian faith is a lie, then as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 "we are of all men most miserable." On the first quote, i believed the same thing when i was deceived. The only answer the bible gives to the meaning of life is to glorify god, which the bible says we all failed to do, therefor rendering no meaning to life. How do you know the god of the bible is the true creator? If you do some digging, you will find that the god of the bible didn't show up until way later after other gods were worshipped. As to the second quote by paul, there is a cure to that misery, it's called deconversion. When I was a christian for 13 years, i never met anyone more hard core than me, even christians found me annoying and thought i was a crazy fanatic. I believed everything you claim to believe, yet here i am deconverted and all the more happy about it. Your obviously on this website for a reason. The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in. Maybe deep down your on here because part of you doesn't really believe it. Jesus said you were his friend "only" if you do whatsoever he commands you to do. If he commands you not to communicate with us or have anything to do with us, and you are doing just what jesus said not to do, then how are you jesus' friend? -food for thought , peace p.s. I am just asking questions, not putting you down. "The bible says your not to have any fellowship with the unbelievers, yet here you are fellowshipping with us, which is in direct rebellion to the scriptures and the god you claim to believe in." I would rather be here than.... anywhere near a Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer or Benny Hinn show. And the funny thing is, you're about as honest as all three of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 i'm still waiting to hear his version of the gospel isn't my soul important to him i guess not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 i'm still waiting to hear his version of the gospel isn't my soul important to him i guess not I think you are suppose to accept Jesus Christ before Iron Horse tells you all the rules. Wouldn't want to scare you away with all the spiritual meat that you are not yet ready to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Would not want to hear the good news if that's what Ironhorse considers good news. Crucifixion? Has to be one of the cruellest punishments in human history. Resurrection? Jesus is one of the few to come back from the dead. He has this awesome power of un-deading yet he doesn't share this with every human and possibly animals. Hell? This negates a loving God. Heaven? Still negates a loving God because it says the few will go to Heaven thus torturing everybody else. Salvation? Fickle. Anything can sentence you to hell if you do not repent. And is this worth intruding on people's lives to tell other people for, Ironhorse? Fuck off if you still think this is good news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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