God Doesn't Prevent Terrible Things Because:

[Guest end3]

 

Physical conditions can be altered dramatically by different behaviors....it's pretty simple.

 

No, no it isn't. Physical conditions that affect Epigenetics range from partial DNA structure deletion (and depending on if it's from the mother or the father's side that has the deletion) to starvation to smoking while pre-pubescent. Unless these behaviors are causing one of these things, and given the fact that mana is supposedly raining from heaven and tobacco won't be discovered by the West for a few millennia, no one's behavior will effect their children and grandchildren.

 

I do not believe you understand a single thing about how Epigenetics works and what behaviors effect what.

 

And for the record, you didn't respond to the fact that the ancient Israelites had an extremely weak grasp of the mechanics of the universe.

 

It's not a stretch to marry starvation or smoking or stress or murder to "physical conditions". What does Israel's understanding have to do with this conversation??

[bornagainathiest]

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

[FarflungWanderer]

 

 

Physical conditions can be altered dramatically by different behaviors....it's pretty simple.

 

No, no it isn't. Physical conditions that affect Epigenetics range from partial DNA structure deletion (and depending on if it's from the mother or the father's side that has the deletion) to starvation to smoking while pre-pubescent. Unless these behaviors are causing one of these things, and given the fact that mana is supposedly raining from heaven and tobacco won't be discovered by the West for a few millennia, no one's behavior will effect their children and grandchildren.

 

I do not believe you understand a single thing about how Epigenetics works and what behaviors effect what.

 

And for the record, you didn't respond to the fact that the ancient Israelites had an extremely weak grasp of the mechanics of the universe.

 

It's not a stretch to marry starvation or smoking or stress or murder to "physical conditions". What does Israel's understanding have to do with this conversation??

 

 

Stress, maybe. But murder is irrelevant. The effect of stress on epigenetics hasn't been tested yet, but it's probably going to come out inconclusive because human beings operate constantly under stress, especially in our modern world.

 

As for how their understanding matters: If they don't understand the universe, then they aren't going to make statements that are scientifically understandable. They're going to attribute things that aren't so to a universe that is much better defined. Meaning, stop trying to scientifically defend the Bible, it just doesn't work.

 

Again, I point to the Firmament to prove to you why your position of scientific-defense just doesn't work.

[bornagainathiest]

Job 9 : 8, NIV.

 

"He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea."

 

Some Christians believe that it's not a stretch to marry this verse up with science and conclude that it refers to God causing the expansion of the universe.

[Guest end3]

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

Murder is a sin.

Starving someone is murder.

Being starved to death causes stress.

Stress causes epigenetic change.

 

If the victim were to survive, then he would pass the changes down to his progeny.

---------

 

Sin visiting the next generation.... Ffw's own example of epigenetic physical change. Not sure how this eludes anyone here, but hey.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

Physical conditions can be altered dramatically by different behaviors....it's pretty simple.

 

No, no it isn't. Physical conditions that affect Epigenetics range from partial DNA structure deletion (and depending on if it's from the mother or the father's side that has the deletion) to starvation to smoking while pre-pubescent. Unless these behaviors are causing one of these things, and given the fact that mana is supposedly raining from heaven and tobacco won't be discovered by the West for a few millennia, no one's behavior will effect their children and grandchildren.

 

I do not believe you understand a single thing about how Epigenetics works and what behaviors effect what.

 

And for the record, you didn't respond to the fact that the ancient Israelites had an extremely weak grasp of the mechanics of the universe.

 

It's not a stretch to marry starvation or smoking or stress or murder to "physical conditions". What does Israel's understanding have to do with this conversation??

 

 

Stress, maybe. But murder is irrelevant. The effect of stress on epigenetics hasn't been tested yet, but it's probably going to come out inconclusive because human beings operate constantly under stress, especially in our modern world.

 

As for how their understanding matters: If they don't understand the universe, then they aren't going to make statements that are scientifically understandable. They're going to attribute things that aren't so to a universe that is much better defined. Meaning, stop trying to scientifically defend the Bible, it just doesn't work.

 

Again, I point to the Firmament to prove to you why your position of scientific-defense just doesn't work.

 

Was it Israel who made the claims? Are you sure?

[bornagainathiest]

To claim that murder is a sin, you first have to establish that sin exists.

 

To do that you have to establish the Biblical origin of sin as history.

 

Believing that it is fails to make the cut.

 

So please cite your historical (Extra-Biblical) evidence, End.

 

Relying on the Bible to corroborate itself is a circular argument and all circular arguments are invalid. 

[FarflungWanderer]

 

 

 

 

Physical conditions can be altered dramatically by different behaviors....it's pretty simple.

 

No, no it isn't. Physical conditions that affect Epigenetics range from partial DNA structure deletion (and depending on if it's from the mother or the father's side that has the deletion) to starvation to smoking while pre-pubescent. Unless these behaviors are causing one of these things, and given the fact that mana is supposedly raining from heaven and tobacco won't be discovered by the West for a few millennia, no one's behavior will effect their children and grandchildren.

 

I do not believe you understand a single thing about how Epigenetics works and what behaviors effect what.

 

And for the record, you didn't respond to the fact that the ancient Israelites had an extremely weak grasp of the mechanics of the universe.

 

It's not a stretch to marry starvation or smoking or stress or murder to "physical conditions". What does Israel's understanding have to do with this conversation??

 

 

Stress, maybe. But murder is irrelevant. The effect of stress on epigenetics hasn't been tested yet, but it's probably going to come out inconclusive because human beings operate constantly under stress, especially in our modern world.

 

As for how their understanding matters: If they don't understand the universe, then they aren't going to make statements that are scientifically understandable. They're going to attribute things that aren't so to a universe that is much better defined. Meaning, stop trying to scientifically defend the Bible, it just doesn't work.

 

Again, I point to the Firmament to prove to you why your position of scientific-defense just doesn't work.

 

Was it Israel who made the claims? Are you sure?

 

 

 

Dude, have you read Genesis?

 

Genesis 1.6-8 (KJV): And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and morning were the second day.

[FarflungWanderer]

 

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

Murder is a sin.

Starving someone is murder.

Being starved to death causes stress.

Stress causes epigenetic change.

 

If the victim were to survive, then he would pass the changes down to his progeny.

---------

 

Sin visiting the next generation.... Ffw's own example of epigenetic physical change. Not sure how this eludes anyone here, but hey.

 

 

Let me explain this real slow-like.

 

What any epigenetic change that would come from someone being starved would involve the physical condition of the child only. Not their character. Not the transmission of some imaginary concept such as sin.

 

As seen in the Dutch Hunger Winter Study, the children, if their mothers were starved during a certain point of their pregnancy, would effect the child in different way. They might be born underweight and live their entire lives as smaller than average. They might have a higher chance of cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

 

None of this has anything to do with the transmission of "sin", which is not and has never been a genetic condition.

[bornagainathiest]

"Not sure how it eludes anyone here?"

 

I'll explain why it eludes us, End.

 

Hebrews 11 : 1, NIV.

 

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."

 

You do not see any evidence for Genesis, Exodus or any of the first five books of the Bible.  There is none.

You do not see any evidence that sin originated in Eden.  There is none.

You do not see any evidence that the Israelites wandered for 40 years in the desert.  There is none.

You do not see any evidence that the effects of sin are heritable.  There is none.

 

No evidence for any of what you believe by faith.  None.  Nada.  Nil.  Zip.

That's because (just as Hebrews tells you to do) you believe these things by faith, not evidence.

We, however, have no such faith and therefore we will not accept your argument on faith.

Do you now see why we cannot accept your argument?

.

.

.

Because it's based on faith - not evidence.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

Murder is a sin.

Starving someone is murder.

Being starved to death causes stress.

Stress causes epigenetic change.

 

If the victim were to survive, then he would pass the changes down to his progeny.

---------

 

Sin visiting the next generation.... Ffw's own example of epigenetic physical change. Not sure how this eludes anyone here, but hey.

 

 

Let me explain this real slow-like.

 

What any epigenetic change that would come from someone being starved would involve the physical condition of the child only. Not their character. Not the transmission of some imaginary concept such as sin.

 

As seen in the Dutch Hunger Winter Study, the children, if their mothers were starved during a certain point of their pregnancy, would effect the child in different way. They might be born underweight and live their entire lives as smaller than average. They might have a higher chance of cardiovascular disease and diabetes.

 

None of this has anything to do with the transmission of "sin", which is not and has never been a genetic condition.

 

You and MM need to get together. Anytime the argument gets to some point that you would have to admit to something....it reverts to "God and every concept regarding God is imaginary". If you wish to deny character and physical condition are not linked, you ARE living in the "it's all imaginary" state.

[bornagainathiest]

No, End! 

 

Farflung and MM don't need to admit anything - because you haven't yet made a coherent, evidence-based argument.

 

Your argument (or should I say non-argument) rests on faith, not evidence.

[bornagainathiest]

Before you can claim victory or crow in triumph or claim that others have to admit something, you first have to present a proper argument.

 

And you haven't done so!

[bornagainathiest]

I'll explain this to you as clearly as I can End, ok?

 

Even if everything you say about epigenetics is absolutely correct, your argument fails when you introduce the concept of sin into it.

 

In epigenetic science (as well as every other branch of science) there is no such thing as an effect with a FAITH-BASED cause.

 

When an effect is seen, but no physical cause can be established for it, no scientist ever uses RELIGIOUS FAITH to explain it's cause.

 

This is what you are doing.

 

You believe the Bible by faith and then you apply that faith to epigenetics - where faith is not allowed.

.

.

.

Got it now?

 

 

[mymistake]

 

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

Murder is a sin.

Starving someone is murder.

Being starved to death causes stress.

Stress causes epigenetic change.

 

If the victim were to survive, then he would pass the changes down to his progeny.

---------

 

Sin visiting the next generation.... Ffw's own example of epigenetic physical change. Not sure how this eludes anyone here, but hey.

 

 

 

Murder is a sin only in the sense that priests have claimed that various gods and goddesses find it offensive.  There is no evidence that these claims are true.

 

Being starved to death doesn't change the genes in future generations that cannot exist because you died.  derp derp derp

 

derp derp derp    When you are murdered that changes your DNA and after you are dead you pass those changes on to future generations!  derp derp derp

 

You know that people don't reproduce after they die.  You can wrap your mind around this concept, right?

 

Do I have to say it?  People who starve to death by definition do not survive.  Those who survive did not starve to death.  *face palm*

[sdelsolray]

 

Is a 'stretch' correlation, causation or neither?

...

Stress causes epigenetic change.

 

If the victim were to survive, then he would pass the changes down to his progeny.

---------

 

Sin visiting the next generation.... Ffw's own example of epigenetic physical change. Not sure how this eludes anyone here, but hey.

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.  Please provide relevant peer reviewed scientific research to support these mere assertions.

[mymistake]

Anytime the argument gets to some point that you would have to admit to something....it reverts to "God and every concept regarding God is imaginary". If you wish to deny character and physical condition are not linked, you ARE living in the "it's all imaginary" state.

 

 

You have never made an argument where I had to admit your God is real.  Not even once.  Now in my time here I have found many arguments to be persuasive.  Heck, just about any post made by Ravenstar Redneck Prof or Florduh are persuasive.  Pick any one of their posts you like.  And there are plenty of others here who have made great arguments that have changed my mind about something.

 

But not you.  How about right now you cough up some empirical evidence that demonstrates your God is real.  You won't and you can't.

[FarflungWanderer]

You and MM need to get together. Anytime the argument gets to some point that you would have to admit to something....it reverts to "God and every concept regarding God is imaginary". If you wish to deny character and physical condition are not linked, you ARE living in the "it's all imaginary" state.

I like how you switch to some imagined offense rather than try to deliberate the science in this argument further.

 

Oh, and maybe I'm punching above my belt, but there is no link between character and physical condition because "character" is a term we created for socially accepted behavior, *not* a scientific term. Linking the two together is ludicrous.

[Guest end3]

 

You and MM need to get together. Anytime the argument gets to some point that you would have to admit to something....it reverts to "God and every concept regarding God is imaginary". If you wish to deny character and physical condition are not linked, you ARE living in the "it's all imaginary" state.

I like how you switch to some imagined offense rather than try to deliberate the science in this argument further.

 

Oh, and maybe I'm punching above my belt, but there is no link between character and physical condition because "character" is a term we created for socially accepted behavior, *not* a scientific term. Linking the two together is ludicrous.

 

Eh, I think you were the one who brought the term "character" to the conversation.

[FarflungWanderer]

 

 

You and MM need to get together. Anytime the argument gets to some point that you would have to admit to something....it reverts to "God and every concept regarding God is imaginary". If you wish to deny character and physical condition are not linked, you ARE living in the "it's all imaginary" state.

I like how you switch to some imagined offense rather than try to deliberate the science in this argument further.

 

Oh, and maybe I'm punching above my belt, but there is no link between character and physical condition because "character" is a term we created for socially accepted behavior, *not* a scientific term. Linking the two together is ludicrous.

 

Eh, I think you were the one who brought the term "character" to the conversation.

 

 

Objection, irrelevant.

 

In any case, council, you started the conversation on character when you brought "sin" into the debate.

[Guest CutiePie]

At the end of the day, this is how I see things. Xians in general would say that he works in mysteries way, we caused it on ourselves, etc...

However, what's the point of preaching that god is so loving? Is he loving to those that only believe in him? That he's like our father and loves his children and want the best for them?

If god loves his creation, he would be a father and do whatever it takes to protect his children, not sit and watch it happen. Let's say that I have a child or a puppy, puppy or child makes that mistake of crossing the street, I look in their direction and I see a car coming, and they're not paying attention to what's going on around them, me being the mother/caretaker or whatever, I need to intervene in order to keep them safe.

So does god care, no. If he did, would do anything to stop terrible things from happening. Does he exist? I don't think so, if he truly loves his creation, he would do whatever it takes + since he's so powerful, he has the ability to stop these terrible things from happening, oh! & he's also all knowing, he could prevent these things from happening since he sees the future. But, oh...wait...bad guy satan. However, god is seen as this powerful god and you mean to tell me he can't stop so called bad guy satan? 

This whole thing just seems to contradict itself. 

[bornagainathiest]

Or we can try this the other way round, End.

 

Please show us some worked examples of Christian epigenetic science.

If religion and science do work together in harmony, then there'll be plenty of examples for you to show us, right?

 

And please don't limit yourself to just Christian examples!

Why not go for broke and show us examples of other religions working hand-in-hand with science? 

You know... like Muslim geology, Sikh metallurgy, Buddhist physics, Rastafarian chemistry, Mormon biology, Voodoo math or Hindu genetics.

 

And not just theoretical science, either.

Please also show us some examples of machines, devices and tools that'll only work if a Seventh Day Adventist or a Hassidic Jew or a Baha'i follower believe they will.   Anything scientific or technological that requires religious faith to make it work will do just fine!

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.