Timeline For The Motb

[florduh]

This is what the bible itself has to say.

 

That statement is made by Baptists, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, snake handlers, tongue talkers and everybody else who thinks the Bible is valid and they have the correct interpretation. The "Beast," the "Antichrist,"  the end times, rapture timing, all that crap is up in the air and batted back and forth among Bible believers. That's why Ex-Christians don't care about that silliness any longer. Occasionally some still find themselves arguing doctrine from their old belief system; I can't figure out why.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

This is what the bible itself has to say.

That statement is made by Baptists, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, snake handlers, tongue talkers and everybody else who thinks the Bible is valid and they have the correct interpretation. The "Beast," the "Antichrist," the end times, rapture timing, all that crap is up in the air and batted back and forth among Bible believers. That's why Ex-Christians don't care about that silliness any longer. Occasionally some still find themselves arguing doctrine from their old belief system; I can't figure out why.

 

florduh makes an excellent point here. However in regards to the last line, my answer would be in this case as an aid to a person in need. Not necessarily because it's helping me. The other instance would be arguing points in the Lion's Den to show flaws in various doctrines. I guess we are all different and like arguing from different points of view. I can't figure out what it is necessary to thank a person 3 times for the same thing on different occasions to make them feel good - but apparently its social norm.

 

Thanks to all who replied--

 

It seems like those of you that have been out of religion for a while and have no fear of it anymore are unsympathetic to those of us who are struggling and asking for help.  Maybe it was easy for you to deconvert.  It hasn't been for me, and I venture to guess that there are others lurking around this site looking for help.  Perhaps you should think about them when you post your answers--I am not trying to be mean, but some of you seem a little arrogant.

 

Possibly you are mistaking a method of trying to 'knock sense' into a de converting person, as lack of empathy and arrogance. I think its more accurate to put it that some 'experienced' members have seen all the arguments time and again and so have reduced arguments down to major macro points which can come across as dismissive and arrogant, when its simply stating their concise position. Then there are others who will be happy to delve into various depths to initially help a person. HOWEVER, I would encourage getting out of the gritty stage as fast as possible lest you get caught down a whirlpool of never ending differences.

 

In this instance I wholeheartedly agree with florduh whom I quoted above.

 

LogicalFallacy, I was born hardcore Pentecostal, so I have end times b.s. running through my veins.  I have friends and family who don't know that I am no longer much of a believer, so they love to send scary stuff my way-- to keep me on the righteous path.  But what they find glee in, I find terror in.  They have a myopic view of life, technology is evil, every world event is heading toward the apocalypse with Israel front and center, and on and on. 

 

I am with you. I still suffer from anxiety, in part due to the relentless Sunday/Wednesday the world is ending, tribulation is coming, if you are not ready YOU WILL BURN IN HELL. I could never relish the thought of billions of people being wiped from existence so it caused me great angst. One of the reasons for pushing me towards de-conversion.

 

It seems like you agree with what I was trying to say with regard to the Antichrist or Beast having to appear before the mark ever would be implemented.  Ok, so all of this is bunk-- but how nice would it be for me to be able to respond to one of my Christianf friends who sends me an article on Dr. Oz supporting the MOTB because he talked about implanted microchips on his show that this can't be the Mark, since there is no Antichrist promoting it as a form or loyalty or worship towards him.  And, I would be using the bible to do this!  Their own scripture-- seems like a good way to fight back!  Here is how I see Revelation:

 

the first beast arises

he is injured but comes back more powerful

the second beast encourages everyone to worship the first beast

a mark is enforced to show worship and loyalty of the first beast

 

So, the Antichrist ( First Beast) has to appear and  promote himself as God, wonders and signs would ensue to convince everyone of this-- and then people would see him as God and want to worship him.  Then the mark is instituted to provide proof of worship.   

 

If we have a cashless society today, and eventually move to microchips or tattoos for payment-- I don't see how it could be the MOTB as there is not a man that we are worshipping as God and with whom this chip or tattoo is tied to.  So, if apple comes out with an apple pay microchip, it isn't the MOTB. 

 

This is what the bible itself has to say.  Just like if Genesis is wrong, then if Revelation is also wrong, then it can also be used to disprove what Christians say.

 

Yes, that is one way of interpreting this scripture. I say one way, because as you know there are a multitude of ways. However what is the most likely scenario given that we know John wrote "shortly come to pass" 1) It's futuristic apocalypse or 2)John was writing to first century churches about first centaury events which made sense to those people? This Christian article gives great insight to this, and breaks down all the various ways of interpreting Revelations:

http://www.truthorfables.com/Mark_Of_The_Beast.htm

 

And here I end with a final note: As I have clearly shown the bible can be interpreted in many ways to suit the particular individuals tastes/beliefs/indoctrinations. Example you can interpret Eve "eating the fruit" as having sex with the serpent and producing cain (Serpents Seed doctrine). So with this in mind I would urge you not to go to far down the road with trying to argue biblical doctrine ONLY from the Bible. When I argue it I bring in factors that are external to support my postion.

 

All the best

LF

[sdelsolray]

Thanks to all who replied--

 

rjn, you really understood me.  I am looking for "logic" in how I am reading something in the bible.  Bornagainathiest states that I shouldn't have to believe what I read in Revelation because what HE reads in Genesis proves that the rest of the bible is bunk.  OK-- but you had to read the bible to come to that conclusion.  Your cite logic, and that is exactly what I am attempting to pull together when I read Revelation.  Thanks LogicalFallacy for understanding enough to know that I do need to get down to the gritty details, otherwise I wouldn't be asking.  It seems like those of you that have been out of religion for a while and have no fear of it anymore are unsympathetic to those of us who are struggling and asking for help.  Maybe it was easy for you to deconvert.  It hasn't been for me, and I venture to guess that there are others lurking around this site looking for help.  Perhaps you should think about them when you post your answers--I am not trying to be mean, but some of you seem a little arrogant.

 

LogicalFallacy, I was born hardcore Pentecostal, so I have end times b.s. running through my veins.  I have friends and family who don't know that I am no longer much of a believer, so they love to send scary stuff my way-- to keep me on the righteous path.  But what they find glee in, I find terror in.  They have a myopic view of life, technology is evil, every world event is heading toward the apocalypse with Israel front and center, and on and on. 

 

It seems like you agree with what I was trying to say with regard to the Antichrist or Beast having to appear before the mark ever would be implemented.  Ok, so all of this is bunk-- but how nice would it be for me to be able to respond to one of my Christianf friends who sends me an article on Dr. Oz supporting the MOTB because he talked about implanted microchips on his show that this can't be the Mark, since there is no Antichrist promoting it as a form or loyalty or worship towards him.  And, I would be using the bible to do this!  Their own scripture-- seems like a good way to fight back!  Here is how I see Revelation:

 

the first beast arises

he is injured but comes back more powerful

the second beast encourages everyone to worship the first beast

a mark is enforced to show worship and loyalty of the first beast

 

So, the Antichrist ( First Beast) has to appear and  promote himself as God, wonders and signs would ensue to convince everyone of this-- and then people would see him as God and want to worship him.  Then the mark is instituted to provide proof of worship.   

 

If we have a cashless society today, and eventually move to microchips or tattoos for payment-- I don't see how it could be the MOTB as there is not a man that we are worshipping as God and with whom this chip or tattoo is tied to.  So, if apple comes out with an apple pay microchip, it isn't the MOTB. 

 

This is what the bible itself has to say.  Just like if Genesis is wrong, then if Revelation is also wrong, then it can also be used to disprove what Christians say.

 

 

It seems that you have yet to study/absorb the subject of "logic" yourself, how to employ it, how to spot illogical statements, how to present rational responses, etc.  When you were here before, it was strongly suggested that you do so.  It was also suggested that you work with the appropriate professionals to address your heightened emotional and psychological religious fears and concerns.

 

Have you undertaken either of these suggested courses of action?

 

I mention these things because it will be you, not anyone here, who will conquer your fears.

 

As to your desire to convince indoctrinated theists how silly their religious beliefs are, I suggest your first wait until you convince yourself how silly your religious beliefs are.

[Kushne]

I am on medication to help with anxiety and PSTD caused by intense religious indoctrination. I am just looking for support regarding a couple verses of the Bible. But it always comes back to me being crazy. I remember why I left this site for a long time.

[LogicalFallacy]

Kushne no one is calling you crazy. We are trying to help. Our support in regards to religious indoctrination is to realise that 1) its all false, 2) you have to accept that trying to disprove any biblical concept using just the bible is near impossible because of the 1,000's of different interpretations. So most of us find it easier to say, logically X can't be true due to Y reasons.

 

I have to agree with sdelsolray in that if you trying to leave Christianity, but not convinced that its false yourself you will probably lose any argument with a theist regardless of the subject. When he says "silly", he's referring to the belief, not to you. Check out the reply in my sig that florduh gave to my early question "why would I fall for Christianity?"

 

If you are trying to remain a Christian, while convincing others that THEIR doctrine is wrong you could be in for a very long though ride, which honestly you probably won't win due to the subjectiveness of it all.

[Kushne]

I am basically a non- believer. But I am still very triggered by end times stuff. I don't believe in it-- but I am surrounded by people who do and try to convince me otherwise. And sometimes the stuff they throw at me scares me. That is why I came here asking for help. I read on this site once that the best way to debunk Christianity is to read the Bible. That is what I am doing here. Seems pretty logical to me.

[sdelsolray]

I am on medication to help with anxiety and PSTD caused by intense religious indoctrination. I am just looking for support regarding a couple verses of the Bible. But it always comes back to me being crazy. I remember why I left this site for a long time.

 

 

I'm sorry if I was too direct.  Still, my point was you have to become familiar with and good at using rational thinking yourself.  Seeing other folks do it doesn't count for much.

 

You have already identified an issue (the Antichrist must be there first before the MOTB can be deployed).  You surmise this because of the literary sequence of the tale.  However, the Bible does not affirmatively say that that no MOTB can exist before the Antichrist appears.  It is your interpretation of the literary sequence that leads you to that conclusion.  Your argument is weak and subject to easy challenge.

 

Again, I suggest you spend time studying rational thinking and related topics.

 

Don't expect intellectual honesty from indoctrinated Christians.  The ones you were referencing are likely deeply indoctrinated Christians.  Bads news - best to stay away from them.  You can provide them with valid and sound deductive arguments about their Scriptures, and they will ignore them, or not understand them or respond with apologetic nonsense.

 

Good move on the medical front.  Keep at it.

[LogicalFallacy]

Here are some links I dug up related to rational and critical thinking. Hopefully they will help.

 

http://www.skillsyouneed.com/learn/critical-thinking.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality

 

http://www.ascd.org/publications/books/101017/chapters/Rational-Thinking-as-a-Process.aspx

 

Again I agree with sdelsolray. Arguing with indoctrinated Christians is like trying to hit a swallow with an arrow (Ever seen a swallow fly?) I know this because I'm currently discussing subjects with my father, and his viewpoint keeps changing, so every time I think I've countered his position he's actually altered his position... or resorts to "bad science is an anti God conspiracy" or some such.

[duderonomy]

I am basically a non- believer. But I am still very triggered by end times stuff. I don't believe in it-- but I am surrounded by people who do and try to convince me otherwise. And sometimes the stuff they throw at me scares me. That is why I came here asking for help. I read on this site once that the best way to debunk Christianity is to read the Bible. That is what I am doing here. Seems pretty logical to me.

 

Kushne, I remember when I was still going through that too. In the end, you have to decide for yourself, and you are in the right place to get some help with your questions. Most people here are eager to help others struggling with issues like end-times, fear of hell, and so on but sometimes it seems that they have a funny way of showing it.  

 

I wish I was able to help you too, because I've been where you are, but I lost a lot of my knowledge regarding these things over time. The further you get from belief in the Bible, the harder it is (at least for me) to remember what it was that cemented the idea that a particular fear was false. Kind of like I used to be afraid of monsters lurking under my bed when I was a kid, and of course I'm not now, but I couldn't tell you exactly what got me over the fear.

 

Mostly then, I'm writing this to offer you moral support and to tell you that I understand. 

[Kushne]

Thanks Duderonomy for the kind words. You seem like you are in a good place.

 

Sdelsolrsy-- I still feel my argument is valid as it is based on a "plain" reading of scripture. Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well?

[rjn]

Thanks Duderonomy for the kind words. You seem like you are in a good place.

 

Sdelsolrsy-- I still feel my argument is valid as it is based on a "plain" reading of scripture. Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well?

 

There are plenty of Christians who do not believe Genesis, among other passages, literally. Many Catholics fall into that category, and yet, they're still believers. I don't think Catholics take Revelations that literal either. Most of the time, I don't know why some stories are deemed as entirely or mostly symbolic, while others are not, but inconsistency and cherry-picking are the favourite pastimes of religious people. In some cases, there's some logic to it however. Genesis, for instance, is clearly in the genre of myth, and differs in style from other passages that are less fantastical in nature.

[midniterider]

"I was born hardcore Pentecostal..."

 

...

 

Howdy howdy, fellow ex-Pentecostal. Good luck with your logical defense against the MOTB baloney from your friends. But don't be surprised when your arguments are ignored or someone says you took the bible out of context or some other pathetic nonsense. I hope you use the wonderful dissection provided by Logical Fallacy to reduce the level of your triggers to zero. When you are able to emotionally handle it yourself then MOTB discussion by your MOTB obsessed friends will no longer affect you. Building up your own immunity to Christian fear will obliterate everything these people can throw at ya.

 

(I became Pente around age 30....jettisoned it at 40)

[LogicalFallacy]

Sdelsolrsy-- I still feel my argument is valid as it is based on a "plain" reading of scripture. Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well?

Your argument is valid, but BAA is not providing an interpretation of Genesis 1:1 so the answer to your question is no. BAA argues that Genesis 1:1 is false due to comparisons we can make with science. Genesis chapter 1 is debunked by studying the natural world, not by identifying contradictions within or reinterpreting the chapter.

 

If you are interested in a fuller discussion of this please see this thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/74813-attn-baa-beginning-of-the-universe-question/#.WFpKQPl96Uk

 

In it I am studying the links provided then posting back my understanding and getting discussion surrounding it from BAA and others. It will be a learning journey for me, and anyone else is welcome to join in and post their input.

[florduh]

Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well? 

 

No. It is putting the claims up against reality and common sense. The existence of Adam and Eve isn't up for interpretation in the story, yet we can independently know that the magical creation of those two is most certainly not how we got here. That story is about "original sin" triggered by a talking snake and thus it established the need for the later introduction of a "savior." 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well? 

 

No. It is putting the claims up against reality and common sense. The existence of Adam and Eve isn't up for interpretation in the story, yet we can independently know that the magical creation of those two is most certainly not how we got here. That story is about "original sin" triggered by a talking snake and thus it established the need for the later introduction of a "savior." 

 

 

What Florduh wrote, Kushne.

 

I might also add one question.

 

Is a house soundly-built if it rests on an insecure foundation?

[Kushne]

BAA-- no, a house is not solid if it rests on an insecure foundation-- but please understand that people are in different places in how they think.  I am being told I need to be more logical.  Of course-- the best logic according to everyone on this site is to say that the entire book of Revelation was written about earlier times-- Nero was the beast, all of it was allegorical and was about the Roman empire-- which I don't necessarily disagree with.  In fact, I love that idea.  However, I have said earlier that I am surrounded by believers, some very close to me-- family, etc.  I can't just get rid of them or stop talking to them.  Because they know that I am a strong doubter or religion at this point in my life, they love to inundate me with endtimes stuff, because they want me to "get right".  If you don't have this in your life, lucky you.  Because it messes with your head.  As I mentioned, I am on strong meds, trying to keep from having daily panic attacks, and to try and avoid fixating on this stuff. 

 

Now, I had written my original post as an affirmation to myself, as much as a defense against Christianity.  I would like to show by example why this timeline is important to me:

 

Suppose 10 years from now, technology advances to the point where people want to be able to pay for things without their wallet-- or even their phone, and a company like Apple or Google comes up with an NFC or RFID chip that can be placed in the hand (these exist already--google it) so that all one would have to do is swipe by the payment kiosk and they could then select what payment that they want based on what is associated with the chip.  The chip could also contain links to ID and Health.  Sounds pretty cool, and easy.  People start getting these inserted-- now perhaps they can put their chip where ever they want-- left hand, right hand, arm, shoulder, etc.  And eventually, these become popular, just like credit cards.  (you can substitute tattoos with electronic ink here as well)  The government sees viability in using these chips as official ID's and so now the government is involved. 

 

You know that the fundies would be going nuts over a scenario such as this--stating that it is the MOTB and that by taking the mark, you will be hell bound.  But, in all actuality, it is just technology progressing (perhaps in a way that seems somewhat similar to Revelation--because of the buying and selling and perhaps the hand part of it) but they will freak out.  And I see it as just technological advancement as well.  I am sure that there will be a lot of debate and argument regarding privacy, government control, etc. if something like this got off the ground, but there is still no Antichrist or Beast in this scenario-- we are not worshiping anybody who asserts themselves to be god and the "great wonders" haven't happened yet, etc.  I think this scenario is entirely plausible in my lifetime, and that is why I want to have valid arguments in my mind.

 

My arguments are as follows:

 

There is no MOTB-- that Revelation is just a book written during the Roman persecution.  (This is probably the most valid argument, but the fundies will push how the tech matches what Revelation says)

If I get my chip or tattoo in my left hand, I negate the prophecy!  (I like this one, because I am taking control--but what if regulation is that you have to get a chip in the right hand)

It can't be the MOTB because there is no Beast and the scripture in the bible that talks about this scenario indicates that the Beast is alive and well when the chip is implemented.

 

Now, in this scenario, I suppose that Christians would try to assert that the government is the Beast, but it seems clear in the biblical reading that the Beast is a man who sets himself up as a god, and wants worship.  I don't see how our government would fit that role in its current form.

 

Anyway, that is what I am trying to resolve.  Let's take arguing with Christians out of the equation.  It give me peace to think that you have to have a Beast before you can have the MOTB-- for the reason listed above.  But you all have made me feel like I can't believe that is accurate-- and that scares me.

[bornagainathiest]

Kushne,

 

Please accept my apologies for not being sufficiently empathic towards you.

In my life I have had nothing comparable to the suffocating effect of so many hard-core believers harrying and browbeating you on a daily basis.  I was always the master of my own beliefs and the many years I spent as an overzealous evangelical Christian were entirely my own fault.  Perhaps I'm not the best person here to help you and walk with you on your journey out of fear?  LogicalFallacy seems to have the skill set and the temperament to be of much more help to you than I can be - at least at this delicate stage in the process.  

 

How does that sound to you?

 

Respectfully and sincerely,

 

BAA. 

[yunea]

It's the hardest when there are many emotional reasons to not let go completely, such as the closest people to you in the world bombarding you with this stuff. Many deconverting people end up with their family disowning them, saying that everything will be okay again if the deconverted person will return to the fold. It is absolutely terrible.

 

Before I even became a hardcore believer, I would actually read the book of Revelations just because it was so scary and so weird and yet somehow seemed to talk about these days. With my older brother we'd look for what in the world today matches the numbers, the two-headed beast, etc. We came up with things like Microsoft. It was kind of like... you know the old joke about the man who (don't ask me why) gave a massive pile of manure to his optimistic son? He later sees the son digging through it enthusiastically, and when he asks his son, "why are you so excited about manure?", he exclaims "I'm sure here's a pony to be found! I just didn't find it yet!".

 

It's written so vaguely, there's bound to be something that sort of sounds familiar. 

 

I also have had the habit of just not thinking of the things in the Bible that didn't make sense (which was many many many things), because I was sure God would eventually help me understand them, and until then I could go with what I understood (in other words, what I chose, but I didn't think of it that way then). 

 

I guess my personal best argument against the MOTB itself is that for decades, maybe centuries now, people have thought they know what it is and who the Beast is, and been wrong every single time.

 

As for how the Bible creates atheists, did you see Citsonga's "Letter to Parents"? That's one longish but brilliant text about how wanting to really, truly know the Bible lead into agnosticism for one person. 

[midniterider]

"It give me peace to think that you have to have a Beast before you can have the MOTB-- for the reason listed above.  But you all have made me feel like I can't believe that is accurate-- and that scares me."

 

...

 

Whatever gives you peace is something good to hold onto.

 

[Kushne]

That is why this thread is causing me distress!!!

[florduh]

No beast. No marks. None of it. It's mythology. It doesn't matter if one thinks the Bible says this or it says that. Both opinions are irrelevant to reality. Try some Hindu mythology if you want a scary story to worry about. 

 

My dear, you need more and better professional help than is possible to dispense here. Please avail yourself of some before you waste your whole life fearing boogeymen who aren't there.

[Kushne]

I am. I am on a number of meds. I tried counseling but didn't really understand religious fears.

[Kushne]

And the default back to my craziness. Uggh

[florduh]

I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it go away.

[LogicalFallacy]

LogicalFallacy seems to have the skill set and the temperament to be of much more help to you than I can be - at least at this delicate stage in the process.  

 

How does that sound to you?

 

Respectfully and sincerely,

 

BAA.

Ironically BAA, it's because of you I tend to temper down my posts. I have never seen you treat any poster with disdain or arrogance, even though many a time you probably thought their argument was senseless and stupid. Contrast that to my early days of arguing on the net, I would be quite dismissive, and as I've found out a more respectful approach is always better. So there is certainly nothing wrong with your temperament. I think in this case it's merely hard logic for Kushne is difficult for her at this time which is no ones fault.

 

 

BAA-- no, a house is not solid if it rests on an insecure foundation-- but please understand that people are in different places in how they think.  I am being told I need to be more logical.  Of course-- the best logic according to everyone on this site is to say that the entire book of Revelation was written about earlier times-- Nero was the beast, all of it was allegorical and was about the Roman empire-- which I don't necessarily disagree with.

I think Kushne, the best "logic' according to most here would be to take BAA's approach and figure out whether the Bible stands on its first verse. It doesn't. Ipso facto the rest is rubbish. However, we also understand that you are not quite at this point yet, so can point out other logical paths to take which in summary are:

 

1) Revelations is written during the 1st Century, regarding first century events, for first century people.

2) #1 is backed up by the opening versus in Revelations which states "things must shortly come to pass"

3) #2 is further backed up by John being told not to seal up these things to the end of time, unlike Daniel who was told to seal up his revelations to the end.

4) A natural reading of Revelations 13 indicates we should be well aware of the three beasts - remember the first beast makes war with the saints for 42 months BEFORE the second beast causes all to have the mark.

 

In fact, I love that idea.  However, I have said earlier that I am surrounded by believers, some very close to me-- family, etc.  I can't just get rid of them or stop talking to them.  Because they know that I am a strong doubter or religion at this point in my life, they love to inundate me with endtimes stuff, because they want me to "get right".  If you don't have this in your life, lucky you.  Because it messes with your head.  As I mentioned, I am on strong meds, trying to keep from having daily panic attacks, and to try and avoid fixating on this stuff.

I am no professional, and I strongly agree with florduh's post above. However, I would encourage you to perhaps look past MOTB and decide whether you think there is any grounds for Christianity at all. The logic here would be that if you come to the conclusion that Christianity is false, then MOTB is false so you should be able to reduce or eliminate fear of it? The only reason you fear it is that you think it 'might' be true?  

 

Now, I had written my original post as an affirmation to myself, as much as a defense against Christianity.  I would like to show by example why this timeline is important to me:

 

My arguments are as follows:

 

There is no MOTB-- that Revelation is just a book written during the Roman persecution.  (This is probably the most valid argument, but the fundies will push how the tech matches what Revelation says)

If I get my chip or tattoo in my left hand, I negate the prophecy!  (I like this one, because I am taking control--but what if regulation is that you have to get a chip in the right hand)

It can't be the MOTB because there is no Beast and the scripture in the bible that talks about this scenario indicates that the Beast is alive and well when the chip is implemented.

 

Now, in this scenario, I suppose that Christians would try to assert that the government is the Beast, but it seems clear in the biblical reading that the Beast is a man who sets himself up as a god, and wants worship.  I don't see how our government would fit that role in its current form.

 

Anyway, that is what I am trying to resolve.  Let's take arguing with Christians out of the equation.  It give me peace to think that you have to have a Beast before you can have the MOTB-- for the reason listed above.  But you all have made me feel like I can't believe that is accurate-- and that scares me.

I think I have clearly stated, per my posts, that your view here is accurate, so not "all' of us can have made you feel like you can't believe it. I think Kushne, you need to realise this is probably fear speaking. I know what fear is like, trust me, your thinking abilities do not work correctly when clouded by fear. Here's a quote that helped me:

 

"“Fear is not real. The only place that fear can exist is in our thoughts of the future. It is a product of our imagination, causing us to fear things that do not at present, and may not ever exist. That is near insanity. Do not misunderstand me danger is very real but fear is a choice.”

 

This was from a movie, but so very true.

 

So yes, you can get some peace from realising you can't have MOTB before the first two beasts, but I feel you'd get greater peace from working out for yourself whether Christianity is true or false. If its false the rest is just details.

 

Sincerely

LF