Timeline For The Motb

[Kushne]

The whole thing is that I don't believe that Revelation will come true. I just want some tools in my toolbox to tell myself when I need them. The Beast having to come before the Mark was one of them. It helped me not fear technology. if the simplest reading of Revelation reads that, why am I wrong?

[LogicalFallacy]

This argument here is what I think you agree with?

 

1) Revelations is written during the 1st Century, regarding first century events, for first century people.

2) #1 is backed up by the opening versus in Revelations which states "things must shortly come to pass"

3) #2 is further backed up by John being told not to seal up these things to the end of time, unlike Daniel who was told to seal up his revelations to the end.

4) A natural reading of Revelations 13 indicates we should be well aware of the three beasts before the MOTB - remember the first beast makes war with the saints for 42 months BEFORE the second beast causes all to have the mark.

 

 

Conclusion: The MOTB cannot happen before the events in versus 1-10 take palace.

 

In which case you are not wrong.

 

Simply be aware that Christians are some of the most irrational people you'll ever meet, so please, please don't expect them to fall over and agree with you when you give this argument. I have been arguing for months with my father and without fail he finds some out to support his beliefs that defies all logical reasoning. That is the Christian mind-set. But as long as you are at peace with what you understand, and your argument then that is what counts.

[Kushne]

I think we crossed posts LF. Thank you for what you said. You even validated my interpretation. I appreciate that. I know it is fear-- and I guess I am just in a bad fear cycle that started with Dr. Oz taking about implanted RFID chips. Fear rushed back. Even though I know I shouldn't be afraid, I was. And still am a bit. Even though I don't believe. Crazy I know.

[Kushne]

????

[LogicalFallacy]

You're welcome Kushne.

 

And I know, fear is a bitch. It will tell you lies despite the obvious facts. It should pass with time and help, then you'll be able to approach the whole religion topic with confidence.

 

All the best

LF

[sdelsolray]

...

Sdelsolrsy-- I still feel my argument is valid as it is based on a "plain" reading of scripture. Earlier, I was told that the Bible was false because of Genesis being wrong-- but isn't that just interpretation of scripture as well?

 

 

A literal interpretation of much of Genesis is falsified due to external (i.e., not in the Bible) empirical evidence  For example, the Adam and Eve story is refuted with millions of data demonstrating biological evolution.  The Noah's Ark tale is refuted with extensive evidence concerning geology and anthropology, and further refuted with negative evidence (i.e., evidence that should be present if there was a global flood 5,000 +- years ago).  I'll leave the Biblical story about formation of the universe, Earth and life and related cosmology, astronomy and abiogenesis evidence to BAA.

 

As to your argument, I think it goes something like this:

 

P1:  The antichrist will exist/appear.

P2:  The antichrist will require a MOTB on people to demonstrate loyalty and to give them access to food, etc.

C1:  Only Marks which arise or are affixed after the antichrist appears and takes power are useable as MOTBs.

C2:  Any Mark which arises or is affixed before the antichrist appears and takes power is not a MOTB and cannot be used as a MOTB after the antichrist appears and takes power.

 

Please show how the conclusions C1 and C2 necessarily and logically follow from the premises P1 and P2.

[bornagainathiest]

To Kushne...

 

I'm glad to see that my confidence in LogicalFallacy was not misplaced.  He was able to understand what you needed and able to validate your interpretation, which was helpful to you.  

 

 

 

To LogicalFallacy...

 

Thanks for the kind words, LF.  

 

[midniterider]

The whole thing is that I don't believe that Revelation will come true. I just want some tools in my toolbox to tell myself when I need them. The Beast having to come before the Mark was one of them. It helped me not fear technology. if the simplest reading of Revelation reads that, why am I wrong?

 

Christianity teaches us to be afraid and submit. Begin to teach yourself how to dominate your fear and destroy it. Laughter is probably the ultimate nuke against fear. It renders fear powerless. You can also imagine being more powerful than your fear. Imagine yourself rising up against this MOTB fear and obliterating it with your favorite imaginary weapon.

 

What would happen if you continually told your friends and family that you are not afraid of the beast, the motb, satan, hell, etc? What if you laughed at their end of the world talk. I believe you mentioned them bringing it up often as an attempt to keep you in the fold. They know you're afraid of it.

 

What would happen if during one of these conversations you looked up to the sky and said, "Jesus, bring on the end of the world right now because I am tired of listening to these people's bullshit! Rapture all my Christian friends and relatives so I can have some peace."

 

http://circuity.blogspot.com/2012/05/banish-with-laughter.html

Watch some funny videos too.

[Kushne]

Sdelsolray-- why do you want to argue with me? What benefit does it provide to you or me?

 

Revelation 13 begins with a beast rising from the sea-- he was given great authority from the dragon. Then he is wounded very badly yet lives-- so people begin to worship him. He talks bad about god, asserts himself as a leader and overcomes all kinds of people.

 

Then a second beast rises up, also with great power but causes everyone to continue to worship the first beast. He even insists that an image of the first beast be created that could speak-- and insists that the people worship the image as well.

 

And he causes or makes everyone get a mark of the first beast.

 

Now according to christians-- the Bible is infallible. So according to the timeline from their own scripture-- the first beast is alive or around before the second beast. Then the second beast arises and causes people to get the mark. Therefore, the beast comes before the mark.

 

Part of my fear is that Christian's try to tell me that the MOTB system is here with the microchips and that if we get one at all, we are doomed. So your question C2, plays exactly in to what they say. Are you trying to scare me? Why would you ask me something like this if you were trying to be encouraging?

 

It seems to me that anything that happens prior to a beast appearing would have nothing to do with said beast. In Chapter 14 and later in Revelation, the mark is always tied to worship of the beast. This also seems to indicate that you would have to have a beast to worship and then want to take his mark. See the scenario that I provided earlier on for an explanation as to why this is important to me.

[sdelsolray]

Sdelsolray-- why do you want to argue with me? What benefit does it provide to you or me?

...

 

You presented an argument.  I used rational thinking to parse and present that argument back to you in standard premise/conclusion format and asked a question.  Please don't take it personally.  It is your argument that I was addressing, and only your argument.

 

If I am correct, and your argument's conclusions do not necessarily follow from the premises, then you will benefit from understanding your argument more completely.

 

I could be incorrect in my view of your argument.  If that is true, I ask that you think about what is wrong about it and identify what that is.

...

Revelation 13 begins with a beast rising from the sea-- he was given great authority from the dragon. Then he is wounded very badly yet lives-- so people begin to worship him. He talks bad about god, asserts himself as a leader and overcomes all kinds of people.

 

Then a second beast rises up, also with great power but causes everyone to continue to worship the first beast. He even insists that an image of the first beast be created that could speak-- and insists that the people worship the image as well.

 

And he causes or makes everyone get a mark of the first beast.

 

Now according to christians-- the Bible is infallible. So according to the timeline from their own scripture-- the first beast is alive or around before the second beast. Then the second beast arises and causes people to get the mark. Therefore, the beast comes before the mark.

 

Part of my fear is that Christian's try to tell me that the MOTB system is here with the microchips and that if we get one at all, we are doomed. So your question C2, plays exactly in to what they say. Are you trying to scare me? Why would you ask me something like this if you were trying to be encouraging?

 

It seems to me that anything that happens prior to a beast appearing would have nothing to do with said beast. In Chapter 14 and later in Revelation, the mark is always tied to worship of the beast. This also seems to indicate that you would have to have a beast to worship and then want to take his mark. See the scenario that I provided earlier on for an explanation as to why this is important to me.

 

You are pointing to the timeline and infer that a Mark is not a MOTB until after the second beast is in place.  That inductive inference has some weight and makes sense.  However, it is not an iron-clad deductive conclusion.  As I said, it is an interpretation, and a fair one.  Your Christian acquaintances can infer that Marks could be put in place before the second beast arises only to become active afterwards.  That is an interpretation too, but it has less weight because the timeline sequence does not support it.  Their fear of technology is a better explanation for why they would put forth such a claim.

 

In any event, the whole MOTB/Antichrist set of claims is pure nonsense in the first place.

[sdelsolray]

Duplicate post... 

[Kushne]

It looks like you edited your post. Thanks for at least acknowledging that my argument is decent!!! I know that Christians might try to assert that something could be a mark before there is a beast-- but nothing in the cited scripture shows this. I imagine that if my future microchip scenario ever came true, when life continues to go on-- we can then have even more arguments to debunk Revelation and that will be nice. Until then, I have to remind myself that the Bible is crap and so is Revelation.

[sdelsolray]

It looks like you edited your post. Thanks for at least acknowledging that my argument is decent!!! I know that Christians might try to assert that something could be a mark before there is a beast-- but nothing in the cited scripture shows this. I imagine that if my future microchip scenario ever came true, when life continues to go on-- we can then have even more arguments to debunk Revelation and that will be nice.

...

Your interpretation is decent.  Your inductive argument, at least according to standard logic, is weak.  Keep in mind that your Christian acquaintances present no arguments at all, just mere assertions (logical fallacy), ad hoc and strained interpretation and more make-believe.

 

...but nothing in the cited scripture shows [that something could be a mark before there is a beast]

...

Yes.  And nothing in the cited scripture shows that a mark received before arrival of the beast can't be a MOTB.  It's a wash.  This is why it is an interpretation - additional positive or negative information must be added to interpret the Scripture.  A third option, of course, and always a safe and honest option, is to recite, "I don't know".  Followed by (in appropriate circumstances), "I don't care".

 

...

Until then, I have to remind myself that the Bible is crap and so is Revelation.

Yes.

 

Here's a fairly good webpage (and website) which discusses deductive arguments and inductive arguments, among other topics:

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/criticalthinking/a/deductivearg.htm

[sdelsolray]

Another dup post...

[mwc]

     There's no point in focusing on the mark of the beast when none of the stuff prior to that mark has occurred yet.  Like the opening of the seals in the chapter six that lead up to people taking shelter in the mountains out of fear of the lamb (hasn't happened).  Or the lessor known marking out of the 144,000 Jews by god in the next chapter.  Until things like this happen no "beast" (real or imaginary) can do anything.

 

    The book is pretty specific about the order of events in Revelation.  You can't skip to the beast, then back to the seals and then somewhere else.  People focus on the beast like all the rest has happened and we're just sitting around waiting on this one thing but I've not seen any of the rest.  John mentions the time skips when we have to wait while the dragon is locked up all that time and the places where we they decide to hold back some imminent threat a while.  This is all pretty clear.

 

     So you'd have to locate all that other stuff, or get these other folks to do it, before focusing on this beast stuff.  Get a reasonable time line for all those events.

 

          mwc

[suzie]

I tried to discuss this topic a while back, but got few responses that helped other than a link to a video from a Yale Professor that was informative-- but I still would like to discuss this topic a bit more, as my earlier thread was locked.

 

When I read Revelation 13, it seems clear that the Beast (Antichrist) becomes known to the world-- possibly as a false god, and people begin to worship him. Then the MOTB is introduced as a way to show allegiance and worship to this person. Of course the explanation of this mark is incredibly vague.

 

I would like to explain to my Christian friends who like to inundate me with the latest technology, that none of this can be the actual MOTB until the Beast himself occurs according to what their bible says. I want to be able to use their bible to disprove their theories that microchips, tattoos, etc. are the mark.

 

Now, I know that a great number of you dismiss the MOTB and anything that the bible says out of hand-- and will just say to ignore my friends. That is hard to do. Also, as we do have technological advances, we all will have to grapple with how far we want to go with tech. I understand all of the governmental fears and loss of freedom fears, but I want to use what the bible actually says to be able to eliminate any "end of the world" fears.

 

If you can't take the mark until a leader has arisen and has control of the world-- and then demands to be worshiped, then we don't need to fear microchips, etc. Christians try to claim that the beast system is being set up with cashless societies, and chips, etc. but how can that be without the Beast? Am I right on this?

 

Please, lets have a good discussion on this without just saying that the MOTB isn't real, or was Nero-- I want to help people like me who are being indoctrinated by churches and Christians that the mark is microchips, tattoos, and other things we might see in the future-- but if the bible doesn't match what they say, we can use that as a valid argument.

 

I am trying to be a nonbeliever and know that most of the bible is bunk-- but some of the best ways to fight false Christianity is to use their very tools against them. Please help.

Kushne your posts could almost be written by me! This exact thing had been stressing me out lately and was triggered today by a random facebook comment in a group I am in. I have avoided posting about it also due to the 'crazy' thing :-/ Thankyou too LogicalFallacy for your responses, exactly what I needed to read :-)

[LogicalFallacy]

You are welcome.

 

In regards to worrying about this kind of stuff, with some religious people anything and everything is a sign. So recently the UN voted against Israel building more settlements on the West Bank. Immediately Christians I know said it's a sign of all nations coming against Israel per Revelations and a sign of the end. In fact here's a top 10 list of the sign of the end for my church:

 

1) Anything against Israel 

2) Any US election (No joke, the world is ending with every election with the possibility of that president being the beast - we ignore the popey )

3) Earthquakes

4) Homosexuals

5) All and anything LBGTAQ

6) Global Warming

7) 'Breakdown of society' - so the fact society changes really

8) Laws that go against the perceived interpretation of the Bible

9) 'Persecution' of Christians - basically not being allowed to scream hate speech anywhere at anytime and not be held accountable for it.

10) Science increasing its knowledge (In the days of Noah man apparently increased in knowledge because living 900 years old)

 

So, don't panic every time someone finds 'evidence' for God/Jesus/Allah or signs of the times. People have evidence for reptilian control and a flat earth too

[Joshpantera]

I've grown so tired of watching this stupid shit play out over and over again. Of course now the rage is that Trump must be the beast of Revelation. I was on another forum and some one tried to link the mark of the beast 6x6x6=216 to Trumps birthday 1x9x4x6=216. 

 

I pointed out that the oldest manuscript has the mark of the beast as 616, not 666 from the outset. And the simplest and glaring explanation as to why there are two different numbers of the beast:

 

 

The main point being that none of what was written in early Christianity discusses or has any insight whatsoever into people or events that were not contemporary to the writing periods in question. Once you realize that the mark of the beast was squarely a contemporary reference to Nero Caesar all this other horse shit just falls flat....

[LogicalFallacy]

You hit that on the head. Revelations, like all of the New Testament, was written by people of that time, FOR people of that time. They believed that Jesus was coming back in their lifetimes, John of Revelations said these are things which must "shortly come to pass".

 

Historians have shown that the cryptic 666 would have been a known reference to Nero, or it could have been Domitian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domitian) who was the Emperor around the time Revelations is believed to have been written (81-96 CE). That would be the late date, other sources put the data prior to the sacking of the temple so around 66-69 CE. Either way John is talking about events happening then, and what he thought would be.... along with some fairly graphical metaphors. (7 head red dragon, drunken whore of Babylon, etc. )