Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2017 A common topic that pops up when discussing the garden of Eden. Here's W L Craigs take on Original Sin. Note that not all Christians share the same opinion on the subject of original sin, so if you are debating its important to find out hat they think or else you could be straw manning their position without knowing it. My comments to WLC: Seriously, yo believe you'd act in exactly the same way as Adam? And your basis for determining this that does not include apriori beliefs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Yeah, I don't find that compelling. The whole point of a proxy vote is that I would "appoint" the proxy. He acknowledges this and tries to brush it off, but that is absolutely true. It's not a proxy if I had no say in it. You cannot use the example of a proxy if you're going to leave out the "appointed" part. Plus, as you mentioned, one cannot assume that we all would have acted the same way. That's a bit ridiculous. There are SO many assumptions in this argument for it to be even remotely true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 The original sin was to choose symbolically the pursuit of knowledge over blind obedience to god. Obviously Adam and Eve didn't represent the choice most of mankind would have made or else religion would have disappeared a long time ago. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 16, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2017 Without knowing the difference between good an evil, how could Adam and Eve know whether or not it was "good" to trust and obey god? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted June 16, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2017 Without knowing the difference between good an evil, how could Adam and Eve know whether or not it was "good" to trust and obey god? Clearly both Stranger and WLC have never thought of that issue. They want to proclaim that they disobeyed god and that was reason for punishment, but fail to explain how Adam and eve could have possibly known that disobedience was bad. Furthermore they fail to account for Gods grand plan which dictated this would happen, meaning Adam and eve didn't have a choice - leading us to the free will question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bibler Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 Without knowing the difference between good an evil, how could Adam and Eve know whether or not it was "good" to trust and obey god? They didn't have a concept of what is good to begin with, therefore for them this question would have been completely out of the picture. For all it matters, they wouldn't have known if it was evil either. They only knew (were programmed to) that obeying God was right, and disobeying wrong respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 18, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted June 18, 2017 They didn't have a concept of what is good to begin with, therefore for them this question would have been completely out of the picture. For all it matters, they wouldn't have known if it was evil either. They only knew (were programmed to) that obeying God was right, and disobeying wrong respectively. I suspect your answer is a lie. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Why is the troll still being allowed to falsly post as a believer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Clearly both Stranger and WLC have never thought of that issue. I pointed that out to Stranger a few times and he responded with the twisted nonsense that "good and evil" is not exactly the same as "right and wrong," and therefore they could know that it was wrong to disobey without understanding good and evil. The amout of hoops that religious people will jump through in order to try to prop up their preconceived notions is mind-boggling. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ablemate Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I suppose god told Adam not to eat the fruit but without reason or threat. Perhaps god just expected Adam to obey unquestioningly. I think Fervent Xian men like to highlight Eve as the temptress which is not mentioned at all in this. In fact Adam was punished for choosing Eve over god. I have read ancient manuscripts, or translations thereof, which were omitted from the bible which go into much more detail on Adam and Eve and the banishment. In the end it's all a crock of shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 I suppose god told Adam not to eat the fruit but without reason or threat. Perhaps god just expected Adam to obey unquestioningly. I think Fervent Xian men like to highlight Eve as the temptress which is not mentioned at all in this. In fact Adam was punished for choosing Eve over god. I have read ancient manuscripts, or translations thereof, which were omitted from the bible which go into much more detail on Adam and Eve and the banishment. In the end it's all a crock of shite. That is correct. God expected Adam to obey for no reason than He said so. Well, Eve did give Adam the fruit to eat. There is truth in your statement that Adam was punished in choosing Eve. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 3, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2017 There is truth in your statement that Adam was punished in choosing Eve. Stranger And there is far more truth to Ablemate's statement that "In the end its all a crock of shite" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 And there is far more truth to Ablemate's statement that "In the end its all a crock of shite" No, there is not. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 3, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2017 No, there is not. Stranger Well, I'm convinced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 No, there is not. Stranger Yes there is. Hmm, I could get to like this "arguing by assertion". It's so much simpler than reason and logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Yes there is. Hmm, I could get to like this "arguing by assertion". It's so much simpler than reason and logic. I know, its easy. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 That is correct. God expected Adam to obey for no reason than He said so. Well, Eve did give Adam the fruit to eat. There is truth in your statement that Adam was punished in choosing Eve. Stranger Just curious about something here, Stranger. If it is true that God was justified in punishing Adam and Eve to the extent he did... would he also have been justified in punishing them more? I seem to recall you saying that you believe that their lives were his to do with as he pleased. (Please correct me if I recall wrong.) Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Just curious about something here, Stranger. If it is true that God was justified in punishing Adam and Eve to the extent he did... would he also have been justified in punishing them more? I seem to recall you saying that you believe that their lives were his to do with as he pleased. (Please correct me if I recall wrong.) Thanks, BAA. Well, first I would say God is just in what He does. His judgement will always be just. When I say His judgement is always just, that implies there is no 'punishing them more'. I don't recall saying it but I may well have said it, or something akin to it. I don't want to go back and try and find it. I will say God can do with their lives as He pleases, but what he pleases is always just and right. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Well, first I would say God is just in what He does. His judgement will always be just. When I say His judgement is always just, that implies there is no 'punishing them more'. I don't recall saying it but I may well have said it, or something akin to it. I don't want to go back and try and find it. I will say God can do with their lives as He pleases, but what he pleases is always just and right. Stranger Thanks Stranger. Yes, I thought I'd grasped the gist of what you said. Whatever God pleases to do by way of judgement and punishment is always just and right. So, if it had pleased God to have Adam and Eve punished... in any way He wanted ...that would, presumably, also be just and right? Because whatever God chooses to do, defines what is just and right? No matter what? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Thanks Stranger. Yes, I thought I'd grasped the gist of what you said. Whatever God pleases to do by way of judgement and punishment is always just and right. So, if it had pleased God to have Adam and Eve punished... in any way He wanted ...that would, presumably, also be just and right? Because whatever God chooses to do, defines what is just and right? No matter what? You're quite welcome. I would say, "in any way He wanted" is always governed by His righteous nature. God never 'wants' outside what is just and right. God chooses to do, based on His righteous nature, and what He does is just and right. If God has done it, based on what I have said, then yes, no matter what. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 4, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2017 As an aside, and not to interfere with BAA's line of questioning, can god act against his righteous nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 As an aside, and not to interfere with BAA's line of questioning, can god act against his righteous nature? Then you won't mind if I don't answer. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 4, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2017 No, there is not. Stranger I think we should adopt Strangers method of argument - its far more efficient. Look at the volumes we type in comparison to him. Thusly: Yes there is! PS: BAA and TRP - it sounds like Stranger may be a proponent of divine command theory.... possibly without knowing it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 You're quite welcome. I would say, "in any way He wanted" is always governed by His righteous nature. God never 'wants' outside what is just and right. God chooses to do, based on His righteous nature, and what He does is just and right. If God has done it, based on what I have said, then yes, no matter what. Stranger Thank you. So, if God does something, no matter what it is, whatever he does is righteous, just and right? And if he had chosen to punish Adam and Eve in other ways, any of these would have been equally righteous, just and right as the way scripture tells us that he did punish them? No matter what these other ways are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 4, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 4, 2017 Then you won't mind if I don't answer. Stranger No. I didn't expect you'd be able to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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