bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 I can tell you that whatever God does, He is righteous. Stranger Thank you Stranger. So if god had commanded Adam and Eve to be punished for their sins by having them tortured to death in a thousand different ways (each one more horrible than the last) ...raising them back to life each time they died and then cursing them, before ejecting them from Eden... ...his command would be a righteous one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 My friends... Regardless of who first raised the subject, there is only one sub-forum in Ex-C where politically-charged issues such as the Constitution, the 2nd amendment and the ownership of guns should be discussed ...and the Lion's Den isn't it. Totally Off Topic Almost anything goes, including politics. Please confine political discussions to this area. http://www.ex-christian.net/forum/14-totally-off-topic/ Thanks, BAA. ... sorry BAA ... it was some of the others who made this a political discussion ... not me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Read the anger and hate against Christians in many of those who posted here. Not all by any means, but some. It will be people like that which will one day enter churches and start shooting Christians. Or just on an individual basis. Thus my motive. ... would you like a list of attrocities caused in the name of god and jesus ... or are you too blinded to even see that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 ... sorry BAA ... it was some of the others who made this a political discussion ... not me! Hey, no apologies necessary, Realist. Just pointing out something a certain newbie might not have been aware of. Now he is aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Thank you Stranger. So if god had commanded Adam and Eve to be punished for their sins by having them tortured to death in a thousand different ways (each one more horrible than the last) ...raising them back to life each time they died and then cursing them, before ejecting them from Eden... ...his command would be a righteous one? It seems that Stranger is unwilling to give you a straight answer to your question. It shouldn't be that difficult to say, "If God had chosen to do it that way, his command would have been righteous". It could be that he doesn't respond that way because we could reach the conclusion on our own that his god would have been righteous (only if we assume that "God" is always righteous, as Stranger claims) in doing things in the ways described in your hypothetical scenario, BAA. If everything "God" does is righteous, then it would be reasonable to assume that if he had done things differently, it would still have been righteous, even if those different ways he could have acted would have been worse. If we did assume that everything "God" has done or might do is righteous, then we would have to wonder just what exactly makes this "God" righteous. If the only reason is that might = right, then admitting such a thing would be very difficult for a Christian, I imagine. It certainly doesn't make their god sound any better to admit such a thing. This could be another reason for his failure to provide a straight answer to your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Thank you Stranger. So if god had commanded Adam and Eve to be punished for their sins by having them tortured to death in a thousand different ways (each one more horrible than the last) ...raising them back to life each time they died and then cursing them, before ejecting them from Eden... ...his command would be a righteous one? Whatever God does is righteous. You are asking whatever you think God would do. My answer doesn't change. Whatever God does is righteous. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 It seems that Stranger is unwilling to give you a straight answer to your question. It shouldn't be that difficult to say, "If God had chosen to do it that way, his command would have been righteous". It could be that he doesn't respond that way because we could reach the conclusion on our own that his god would have been righteous (only if we assume that "God" is always righteous, as Stranger claims) in doing things in the ways described in your hypothetical scenario, BAA. If everything "God" does is righteous, then it would be reasonable to assume that if he had done things differently, it would still have been righteous, even if those different ways he could have acted would have been worse. If we did assume that everything "God" has done or might do is righteous, then we would have to wonder just what exactly makes this "God" righteous. If the only reason is that might = right, then admitting such a thing would be very difficult for a Christian, I imagine. It certainly doesn't make their god sound any better to admit such a thing. This could be another reason for his failure to provide a straight answer to your question. You assume God would do things differently. The reason God does what He does is because it is right. Which is why He doesn't do it as you would assume. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 You assume God would do things differently. The reason God does what He does is because it is right. Which is why He doesn't do it as you would assume. Stranger How do you know that what he does is right, rather than just doing what he wants because he can and then calling it right? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 ... would you like a list of attrocities caused in the name of god and jesus ... or are you too blinded to even see that? Sure...got your google ready? Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 How do you know that what he does is right, rather than just doing what he wants because he can and then calling it right? The sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 The sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. Stranger How is that even a sacrifice? A brief moment of suffering followed by becoming god isn't a sacrifice. It is merely a brief inconvenience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 How is that even a sacrifice? A brief moment of suffering followed by becoming god isn't a sacrifice. It is merely a brief inconvenience. Your answer makes no sense. Ask again if you can think it through. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Your answer makes no sense. Ask again if you can think it through. Stranger What exactly did he even sacrifice? Dying a painful death and then coming back to life again is not a sacrifice. God/Jesus didn't lose anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Your answer makes no sense. Ask again if you can think it through. Stranger I didn't think it through as well as I should have with that first response, but I think I fixed it. Hopefully what I was thinking has been put into words that make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 What exactly did he even sacrifice? Dying a painful death and then coming back to life again is not a sacrifice. God/Jesus didn't lose anything. Jesus Christ bore the sin of the whole world on Him. He Who never knew sin, became sin for us. He who was God the Son, was now sin and forsaken of the Father. An experience which caused Him to cry out 'why hast thou forsaken me'. The physical death was bad enough. It doesn't touch the fact that the Son became sin and judgement on Him was given. You know not of what you speak. Stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 It seems that Stranger is unwilling to give you a straight answer to your question. It shouldn't be that difficult to say, "If God had chosen to do it that way, his command would have been righteous". It could be that he doesn't respond that way because we could reach the conclusion on our own that his god would have been righteous (only if we assume that "God" is always righteous, as Stranger claims) in doing things in the ways described in your hypothetical scenario, BAA. If everything "God" does is righteous, then it would be reasonable to assume that if he had done things differently, it would still have been righteous, even if those different ways he could have acted would have been worse. If we did assume that everything "God" has done or might do is righteous, then we would have to wonder just what exactly makes this "God" righteous. If the only reason is that might = right, then admitting such a thing would be very difficult for a Christian, I imagine. It certainly doesn't make their god sound any better to admit such a thing. This could be another reason for his failure to provide a straight answer to your question. Crazy, I'm unable to tell if the Stranger is unwilling, unable or if he genuinely believes he has. It's bizarre. We both read, write and speak the same language, yet there remains a unbridgeable gulf between us - leading to insurmountable communication problems. All communication requires agreement between the communicating parties as to what words, phrases, concepts and ideas mean. Yet, he and I seem to have little real agreement. Perhaps it's as I described to Citsonga? When someone internalizes what they call the truth and also internalizes their truth-checking procedures, their framework of understanding and reference points become internalized too. How then can they step out of this mode of thinking, to meet others in a mutually-agreed framework of understanding, using mutually-agreed points of reference? In a nutshell - they can't. They isolate themselves and are unwilling to compromise and negotiate on even the smallest thing. This also seems to be a self-reinforcing form of isolationism, too. The more others try to engage, the more he resists and insists that the dialog, the meaning of words, the interpretation of scripture and everything else be on his terms. Ok, this isn't solipsism, but as far as communication goes, it's just as obstructive and just as destructive. (Sigh.) p.s. However, there is something I think I've learned, as a result of the dialog in this thread. Would you like to know what it is, CG? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted July 6, 2017 Super Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2017 So, is it right because god does it; or does god do it because it's right? I'm still unclear on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 6, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2017 Sure...got your google ready? Stranger Yes, it will come with a full set of references to bible versus so IF you had the time and inclination you could fact check each one. Crazy, I'm unable to tell if the Stranger is unwilling, unable or if he genuinely believes he has. It's bizarre. We both read, write and speak the same language, yet there remains a unbridgeable gulf between us - leading to insurmountable communication problems. All communication requires agreement between the communicating parties as to what words, phrases, concepts and ideas mean. Yet, he and I seem to have little real agreement. Ahem, BAA.... you posted this 9 minutes ago... , I would have thought the above obvious as of around several days ago. This is the reason I stopped responding direct to Stranger for the most part - there is simply no communication because he will not agree to basic concepts. I showed him how circular reasoning was invalid for an argument, and his response.... if the bible is circular reasoning then so be it. You cannot communicate with a person unwilling to alter their position as new information comes in. Kudos for having more patience than me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Yes, it will come with a full set of references to bible versus so IF you had the time and inclination you could fact check each one. Ahem, BAA.... you posted this 9 minutes ago... , I would have thought the above obvious as of around several days ago. This is the reason I stopped responding direct to Stranger for the most part - there is simply no communication because he will not agree to basic concepts. I showed him how circular reasoning was invalid for an argument, and his response.... if the bible is circular reasoning then so be it. You cannot communicate with a person unwilling to alter their position as new information comes in. Kudos for having more patience than me though. LF, I always have patience when it comes to helping those who are silently observing these proceedings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 To CrazyGuy123... Ooops! Real life (i.e., work) has just intruded in a big way and I now have to log off till tomorrow. So if your answer is in the affirmative (re: what I think I've learned) then please lmk and I'll make good when I'm back online. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 6, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2017 LF, I always have patience when it comes to helping those who are silently observing these proceedings. Agreed, that's the only reason I am still posting to the lurkers, try to help the onlookers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted July 6, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted July 6, 2017 (Hopefully my reply doesn't tread into politics - forgive me if it does breach the boundary.) Because one is a born-again believer he is a religious fanatic? Because one is a born-again believer he is not mentally fit? No, certainly not. I know many born again believers who are not religious fanatics, and who are mentally capable. The term religious fanatic doesn't apply because you are this or that according to your religion. I apply it to those who are fundamental in their beliefs, who hold to a book even when it contradicts reality, who consider that they hold the Absolute Truth (TM), and will not, or cannot reconsider their position. This is dangerous, because if someone like the person above believes without question that they have received a command from god to take up arms in his name they will. We know this is the case because it happens all the time. This is exactly what the Christian is up against today. Christians are the dominant world religion today. They are only up against the other major world religion that is its forsaken sibling - Islam. This idea that "Christians are up against" or are "persecuted" is a mental condition brought on by reading the bible, rather than founded in reality. How many of those who wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights were 'fanatics'? Probably none - from what I understand the founding fathers could actually be reasoned with. That's the difference between them and a fanatic. A fanatic is single minded and will not change their position regardless of how wrong it is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 p.s. However, there is something I think I've learned, as a result of the dialog in this thread. Would you like to know what it is, CG? When you get back on, I would like to know what it is that you have learned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 I will not be able to respond until at least Sunday the 9th. Please understand. Stranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Your answer makes no sense. Ask again if you can think it through. Stranger ... back at ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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