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Goodbye Jesus

Why Do You Remain A Christian?


Antlerman

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If the Bible makes conflicting or illogical statements then it's either evidence of some ineffable divine paradox that we won't understand in this life, or, ahem, it's evidence that the Bible is illogical.

 

DesertBob, I see what you are saying, but let me ask this of you. No matter what one believes about the media or sometimes our own friends, we often see the words that someone spoke and twisted up in a way it was not intended. In other words, we all make statements that seem to conflict with one another, but only when placed side by side, and not understood in the context in which it was used. You would agree with this one, would you not?

 

I think most here would agree with me that ultimately the "key difference" is right there -- we're willing to follow evidence where it leads us, and you aren't.

 

 

Maybe you are right, and maybe not. That is something I am truly going to be looking into.

 

 

What a shock it was to him, to be rapidly consumed by bone cancer and to die so horrifically. I will never forget the look of hurt on his face -- the look of a puppy dog suddenly viciously kicked by its master. What did I do wrong, he wondered. This is the problem with appeasing a non-existent paternalistic sky-god. Sooner or later the rationalizations for that god's silence and unreliability run out

 

I really do not want to just say jebarish in such a hard time that you had to endure. I can honestly say that I have never had to go through such an ordeal. Jesus states the question "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" just before He breathed His last. Death is a hard thing to deal with, and to accept. I wonder if we really ever do on this side of things. I am sorry for the hurtful times you had to go through. I am quite sure I will get my own in due time.

 

I respect you in your differences, and admire your honest thought provoking thoughts. It has been interesting.

 

Hi Deva,

 

Listening to a small still voice, or having to believe in what the Bible says?

 

It is not different at all if you believe that the bible is the LIVING word of God. That is, often when we read the bible, God speaks to us through the bible, thus the small still voice, though He can speak to us with or without the bible.

 

I can't say it doesn't happen somewhere on the earth, but I maintain Christians are proud of this and it is another example of the elevation of suffering they are so fond of. In the U.S. where they far outnumber any other religion, they feel relentless persecution because they can't have public prayer in school.

 

In some small aspects you may be right, however, in this USA of ours where almost all Christians believe we will be whisked away to Jesus in the clouds before any world wide tribulation starts (which is not biblical, but that is for another forum) this shows proof that most Christians, as in all humans, do not want to suffer. No human wants to persicuted Christian or not, but we do believe that if we are, it is for a just cause and that we will be rewarded for it, and in that aspect, you are right. About the school prayer thing, I think it would be fun for you and me to take a trip back to the foundings of this country, and see just where God fit in, but I guess that will be for another topic at a later date.

 

For me, yes, God exists, but I don't believe in the kind of God depicted in the Bible. There is in absolute reality where there is no death and there is certainly no sin. I think the early Catholic church took almost all the good parts out of the Bible and out of the organization when Christianity was institutionalized. I am glad that I am beyond thinking about "fault", and beating up on myself because I am a "sinner." As for the next life, no one really knows, but I favor the theory of reincarnation.

 

I may not agree with you on much, friend, but the Catholic church has a bad history over it's head, and that is a fact. I could go on and on about that. In saying that, however, I believe that there are many Catholic Christians. It is not about the history of their church as much as it is about their relationship with Jesus Christ, as that statement relates to all. I also went to a church as a kid that taught perfection, and beyond. I believe that helped lead me astray as a kid, but later on, God did reveal truth to me.

 

Just one question about sin. Is there anything that you would qualify as evil. If so, would this, or could this be considered a sin?

 

I am still trying to understand.

 

 

I hope that is true. We will see.

 

This is very true, but please do not take that to mean we will ever see eye to eye. I like you, and would do anything I could to help you, and truly do want to see your side of things, and have been trying, but that does not mean we will ever agree. Perhaps, though, a much deeper level of mutual respect for one another, and that certainly goes a long way.

 

It truly has been interesting, Deva.

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Stranger,

 

Do you believe the Earth and the Universe are only 6-10,000 years old? I wonder how you solve the conflict of the distance of all the stars and galaxies and the enormous time it must have taken for the light to travel here. Did God create the light in travel?

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It's also interesting to note that the list includes dentists and mathematicians, as if those fields have any bearing on the issue. It only goes to show that they were not very selective in what they chose to put on the list, they just wanted as many names as possible in order to make it look impressive. And how many of the others listed have real, genuine degrees instead of fake creationist degrees?

 

You make a valid point! I will watch out for that, Cits.

 

1. I didn't mention education to play the I'm smarter than you game, I was just trying to give a picture of one of the many reasons I think the way I do. To be honest with you I am a concerned that someone with your thinking or train of thought DOES think that my secular education IS a problem and that your LOL's and "Just kidding's" are passive aggressive.

 

I am truly glad you are moving on with your education. My only concern is that I do hear many stories of just one way being taught, with no other views excepted or glanced at. I believe we should all have the right to decide for our selves based on the facts, whichever way they lead. Don't get me wrong, as I am truly happy your in school. It is hard to make it on a low paying job and collage can help a great deal.

 

Why does there HAVE to be a truth beyond humanity? You are talking about an absolute or ultimate truth versus subjective truths, all of which I don't think could be discounted as truths in so far as they are truths to the person who believes them. So you hit the nail on the head, for me your truth is nothing more than your thoughts.

 

So if there is no truth, and only thoughts, and most likely than, no sin, is there truly a right way to live versing a wrong way, and where do we draw the line?

 

3.If you do know men who rape their sons I hope you notified the authorities.

 

This is my point. Is it not his truth? Who are we do judge his truth?

 

God bless

 

So, here's a question, why is the Creationist date now set to 10,000 years? It's not Biblical. The date according to the Bible is 4000 years BC, so what changed the mind of all the "scientific" Creationists to think it's 10,000 years now?

 

Ouroborus, I agree with you that 4,000 years BC is biblical. It has not changed to 10,000 years in the eyes of the far majority and of those who take the bible literally. In saying that, there is a small hand full that do believe this way. Over the vast majority of Christians, however, the date has not changed, and is in fact the same. In fact, I have no idea where they get their figures, because it is clear the bible is not their main source.

 

And a second question is, why is Bodie Hodge some kind of guru and specialist in geology, paleontology, chemistry, physics, and astronomy? He's a friggin' mechanical engineer. Don't take Bodie's word as the truth.

 

Yes, that sort of thing was pointed out by another. A valid point that makes things hard to understand or put together.

 

Concerning the rest of your post, I will check into your links and appreciate you posting them. About the bible and the 10,000 year thing, I could not agree more. You are right. Between one believes the bible or they believe something else.

 

Your answers certainly make it more understandable. I will deeply look into this soon. Thank you for letting me know the details.

 

PS Concerning your prayer, It is not like I have had a revelation or anything, but I thought you should be aware that I got a real feeling of relief as it pertains to how or what direction to pray for. I feel OK and clear spiritually to pray for the exact thing that you have requested. I am not jumping the gun, but just letting you know I am now praying for the exact request that you have made, to unfold (or to fold - Ha). God bless

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It is not different at all if you believe that the bible is the LIVING word of God. That is, often when we read the bible, God speaks to us through the bible, thus the small still voice, though He can speak to us with or without the bible.

 

Well, you can speak for yourself, but I don't think its the same thing at all. A Bible is written in one human language, translated into another (or even twice - Aramaic, Greek, English) and then you face the problem of interpretation.

 

 

In some small aspects you may be right, however, in this USA of ours where almost all Christians believe we will be whisked away to Jesus in the clouds before any world wide tribulation starts (which is not biblical, but that is for another forum) this shows proof that most Christians, as in all humans, do not want to suffer. No human wants to persicuted Christian or not, but we do believe that if we are, it is for a just cause and that we will be rewarded for it, and in that aspect, you are right. About the school prayer thing, I think it would be fun for you and me to take a trip back to the foundings of this country, and see just where God fit in, but I guess that will be for another topic at a later date.

 

Well just walk into almost any church - what do you see? Usually, a suffering person nailed up. That is the symbol of Christianity. Yes, you think you will be rewarded for suffering - it is elevated into something transcendent. As to the founding of this country, often it was the really hard line Christian cults (Puritans, etc.) who had to leave England because they were persecuted by the established church. Not to say that there were also some non-religious folk. Things have changed a lot since then and now we have many religions in this country and many non-religious people so naturally there must be accommodation made.

 

I may not agree with you on much, friend, but the Catholic church has a bad history over it's head, and that is a fact. I could go on and on about that. In saying that, however, I believe that there are many Catholic Christians. It is not about the history of their church as much as it is about their relationship with Jesus Christ, as that statement relates to all. I also went to a church as a kid that taught perfection, and beyond. I believe that helped lead me astray as a kid, but later on, God did reveal truth to me.

 

Just one question about sin. Is there anything that you would qualify as evil. If so, would this, or could this be considered a sin?

 

Well there would be no Christians here if there had not been a Catholic church to hold it together for a thousand years - until it split. Yes, I think it became corrupt early on - not only that, but I don't think any of the early followers of Christ understood what he was really saying. There are glimmers of some truth. He had secret teachings that he did not divulge to the crowds and which are not in the official Bible. That is my feeling from reviewing Biblical scholars. I don't think we have enough true information to know who Jesus was.

 

I don't think there is any such thing as "sin". Not on the absolute level. Evil is different than "sin". Sin in the Christian sense of the word is almost like some kind of virus they believe everyone is born with and has innately. Its crazy - they think its because one man (Adam) decided to disobey God thousands of years ago. I will grant that I think some actions are evil - people who injure others because they like it, torture, constant bullying over a period of years, sadism. Its very twisted and sometimes people do almost seem possessed by a demonic force. Also there animals in nature that seem very cruel - playing with their prey, parasitic insects - yikes!

 

This is very true, but please do not take that to mean we will ever see eye to eye. I like you, and would do anything I could to help you, and truly do want to see your side of things, and have been trying, but that does not mean we will ever agree. Perhaps, though, a much deeper level of mutual respect for one another, and that certainly goes a long way.

 

It truly has been interesting, Deva.

 

Thank you, but I am not in need of any help, unless you want to come clean my house, car or patio. I don't expect agreement, either.

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Do you believe the Earth and the Universe are only 6-10,000 years old? I wonder how you solve the conflict of the distance of all the stars and galaxies and the enormous time it must have taken for the light to travel here. Did God create the light in travel?

 

Antlerhead, my believe is that if God created the entire universe, would it be so hard for Him to create light already on the move and in place? I mean, did He not create the planets to already be in movement around the sun. It seems in my believe that God created everything already in movement. That just seems more logical to me. Thanks for asking.

 

 

PS Thanks for changing my stance on the side of my posts. :thanks:

 

 

To be honest, I am sensing you steering this towards get wrapped up in arguing on this simpler level, than the more frightening question of why you feel it is necessary to make science wrong in order for you to deal with a potential crisis of faith?

 

\ That is a fair question. First though, let me really do some research to see if in fact, science as you believe it is fact. What if science that cannot be proven either way leaves open the gap for the bible to be true. I will research and reply later on.

 

View Postthe stranger, on 28 November 2010 - 06:39 PM, said:

In looking at more research, it is quite clear that the testing used is questionable at best.

 

Why are you so hopeful that that is the case? Weak faith?

 

Whether or not I am hopeful of this means nothing. If this is a true statement, would it not put every idea you stand on to test?

 

Nonsense. Why is this so important for you to have your understanding of Genesis match your religious traditions? Isn't it possible those can be wrong? I mean what's more important, your beliefs, or God? Secondly, do you recognize any difference between the two?

 

Now I am going to do as you have suggested that I do, and try my best to see things from all sides, but in saying that, I have came across five more very in depth research sites (which thus far I have barely glanced at) on the side of creation. The question I have to you is, is any site that believes in or supports creation false. If so, is this not a double standard. How can your sites be reliable and mine not if the same topics and test are the subject but the results are different?

 

Antlerman (I can not help but chuckle right now, because for some reason I keep typing out antlerhead instead. No disrespect intended. I just can't seem to get over it)

 

I really appreciate all of the knowledge that you have shared with me. I know I do have much more learning to go. I want you to know that in anything I do decide later on, I have no disrespect at all for you or all you have learned.

 

 

Thank you Ouroborus for your response on #502 (that'il get ya looking) I can appreciate your studies in this area. I guess time will determine if I find some of the same findings. If In in no way shape or form put science and the bible in the same setting, and I only believe based on "feelings" than you are right, I will have something to be concerned with. Thanks for the post.

 

Cit. I see that I have forgotten your post. I will get to yours right now.

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my believe is that if God created the entire universe, would it be so hard for Him to create light already on the move and in place?

:lmao:

 

This guy is surely yanking our chains. :grin:

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If science can't explain, science normally does later, yet to find a good reason to believe the sheepherders of the bronze age, who didn't know say things like germ theory, would have gotten the age of the earth, or how animals are created correctly.

 

To me the work of genesis, is the same as say the work of the the myths written about buddha, its mythos plain and simple. Its moral tails meant not to be science, but character stories.

 

Here is a thought stranger, doesn't even have think about carbon dating and however supposedly innaccurate it is, just look at how fast the plates of these continents we all sit on move. They move so slow, that if it were to all happen in 10,000 years we would be in a perpetual and permanent earthquake because of how fast they would have to move. Look at how, plates can subduct, the old seashell on a mountain deal, how about this, the plates of the area, subduct, and create a mountain higher and higher, soon coming out of sea level.

 

Basic geology tells one, that the earth is older then 10,000 years old, there is just to much shit that we would have to account for, while explaining how we just didn't get burned up in things like volcanoes and floods. Rather sloppy,though however for the theist, unfortunately the 6000-10000 year old time frame, fits the kind of view of the divine, but facts say, the process was not the time a loving god would use, at least in my opinion anyway.

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God could create light already in travel, but do we have any evidence of that? No. Sometimes what did happen is way more important then what could happen.

 

Do we have any evidence some could like say 900 years, not unless you make a bunch of assumptions that just luckily for you follow the bible.

 

Look at the water canopy idea of ken ham for example, where did the water go. There should be water erosion on places like everest, if there was a great flood, correct me if I am wrong, there isn't.

 

The old seashells speculation already been disproven. And anyway, how could water go back down a deep vent without boiling.

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One of the reasons I am here is to find out what I am missing. (the missing link to understanding)<SNIP>

 

When I let go of all my ough to's it was a scary thing. Not trying to be too personal here but from some of my own child hood past I believe it has much effected some of my lustful and other desires. To do as I please (or what my flesh wants) as I have partly done in the past, I just hurt all around me and cause pain that will never completely go away. By others in my family making this same call, I have been stuch with responsibilities for, well, all of my life thus far. It is all in Gods hands, but our own decisions have great impacts on the future of others.

 

And the whole mortal versing immortal thing, if this life is all we have, why not go all out, hurt every one else, and enjoy our own lives? Why take responsibility for anything? If we are not to be held responsible for any decisions we make, why care what ever we do or who we hurt?

 

I know your thinking, because we still care and want to do the right thing. I don't doubt this, but if there is nothing after this life, why be faithful to your wife, why spend time with your kids, and why put up with the stress of a family when the stress gets too much? My point is, if I did not have an eternity view, I believe I would be much much more reckless in my decisions. <SNIP>

 

Let me ask just one simple question. Do you feel that you deserve to go to heaven? If so, on what grounds? Does your good out weigh your bad, and who can truly judge this? And even if it did, could you possibly stand up before a Holy God? I couldn't

 

 

Do you feel that you deserve to go to hell? Obviously, yes, you do. From what I have read so far, you have had problems in your treatment of other people. Your essentially saying, "I don't have what it takes to behave well. If I do as I please, I only live to use and hurt others. The only way I can be a good person is if God does it for me, and then let's me live forever".

 

If you need someone else who you believe has the power to make you a better person, then you will not change yourself. If you believe without God doing this for you, you can only be a selfish person (which you do believe), how will you know if you've really changed? What if you doubted God or even ended up an atheist? Would you then be a selfish, hurtful person? If so, then God never changed you. You only appear to have changed, in order to remain with the faithful. But deep down, you haven't become a better person.

 

Let me ask you this: Would you remain a Christian if God cancelled heaven and hell? What other reasons are there to be a good person as a Christian? Because God commanded you to be good? Without a reward, or threat of punishment, you are off the hook. Now if God's love were the reason for being a good person (rather than commands, and the absence of salvation- reward/threats), how does God's love make you a better person? IOW, if God's love alone is your motivation for being a good person, how does it help you relate better with other humans? Without salvation, how does God love you and make you behave better?

 

I think you need to examine yourself closely as to why you would relate to others only from your selfish desires. I find it hard to believe you don't have a good side naturally, aside from being a Christian.

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Guest I Love Dog

Now I am going to do as you have suggested that I do, and try my best to see things from all sides, but in saying that, I have came across five more very in depth research sites (which thus far I have barely glanced at) on the side of creation. The question I have to you is, is any site that believes in or supports creation false. If so, is this not a double standard. How can your sites be reliable and mine not if the same topics and test are the subject but the results are different?

 

There's no double standard. Creation is entirely unbelievable to anyone with even a small level of intelligent thought.

 

Yes, any site that supports or believes in Creation is false. Trust me. That's the truth. Any "evidence" that creationist sites conjure up is blatantly false.

 

There is no evidence for the existence of the Christian god (or any of the other hundreds of thousands of gods), so no god - no creation. Simple.

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Deva, your funny, NO CLEANING FOR ME, DARN IT! That is not on the list. All joking aside, I will read more in depth a bit later. Thanks.

 

View Postthe stranger, on 27 November 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

 

Quote

So, if god created freewill and everything god created was good, then how is it bad to exercise freewill however one wills?

 

Response to post #493

 

Hi Cit. Paul writes that all things are permissible (that is, living by the Holy Spirit) but not all things are benefitail. ((Forgive me, I did not Ace spelling)

 

A child has the free will to run in the middle of the road (as my dog often does, that is, whenever there is a car coming -- good thing I got a leash LOL) but it would not be wise to do so. Free will is a responsibility, not just a luxury. Bad decisions create a very messy world. Would you rather be a robot? It would be much harder to love God then, would it not?

 

 

Have you really thoroughly thought through what you're saying here? I doubt it, because the implication here is that nothing is actually sinful. All is permissible, after all, and comparing bad choices with a child innocently running into the street removes the "sin" aspect.

 

Well, when Paul writes this, he is writing in regards to the church and in living in the Spirit. Paul was actually talking about freedom here for the Christians instead of being bogged down by the OT practices and more. Paul makes things clear in his writing about sin and what it is. Just like my dog, naturally running in the road, it is my believe that humans are born with this sin nature, and thus always doing things that they regret. After all, what child is not self centered? I might add that many adults are too.

 

 

 

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.Revelation 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

New International Version ©1984 by Biblica

 

These are just verses indicating that Satan is called many things in the bible. Is Satan a dragon? A head wolf? Just because we do not read Satan in this passage does not mean it was not. Some things just make good understanding in scripture, even when not directly stated by name. Who else would have tried to convince Eve to sin against God?

 

My link

 

This is just one of many links to describe the meaning of the word used in Genesis

 

Was it really a snake? A most common definition has been cobra or fish snake on many other sites.

 

One site suggested the word used implied this animal was created this way from the start because the name had a meaning of crawl.

 

I don't really know, but the second part of your question is interesting.

 

If they were immortal before "the fall," then what was the point of the "tree of life"?

 

A good question. I have not gave it much thought. Maybe now would be a good time.

 

Citsonga, I kind of like your questioning. You have some bright responses. Let me get back with the entirety of this post later when I have more time. I have some answers in my head, but am out of time. Let me look further into some of this. Thank you for some well thought out questions.

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I'm going to offer a proper response to your points later, but for now I just wished to remark, wow, I'm duly impressed. :Medal: Kudos. I'm going to enjoy this.

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The MT. Everest thing, concerning the flood. Interesting, thanks

 

 

I will talk with ya all a little later. Thanks for all of your great responses

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Guest I Love Dog

 

 

When I let go of all my ough to's it was a scary thing. Not trying to be too personal here but from some of my own child hood past I believe it has much effected some of my lustful and other desires. To do as I please (or what my flesh wants) as I have partly done in the past, I just hurt all around me and cause pain that will never completely go away. By others in my family making this same call, I have been stuch with responsibilities for, well, all of my life thus far. It is all in Gods hands, but our own decisions have great impacts on the future of others.

Do you feel that you deserve to go to hell? Obviously, yes, you do. From what I have read so far, you have had problems in your treatment of other people. Your essentially saying, "I don't have what it takes to behave well. If I do as I please, I only live to use and hurt others. The only way I can be a good person is if God does it for me, and then let's me live forever".

 

If you need someone else who you believe has the power to make you a better person, then you will not change yourself. If you believe without God doing this for you, you can only be a selfish person (which you do believe), how will you know if you've really changed? What if you doubted God or even ended up an atheist? Would you then be a selfish, hurtful person? If so, then God never changed you. You only appear to have changed, in order to remain with the faithful. But deep down, you haven't become a better person.

 

Stranger, I think that you're another of those crippled people that Christianity appears to attract, people who aren't quite comfortable with themselves and the decisions they make in life and who need some sort of confirmation from an invisible power that it's o.k. or not o.k. to do certain things in life. "Lustful" desires makes it sound like you're ashamed of your natural sexuality. Another Christian teaching, to enforce the obnoxious and ridiculous belief that we are all "born sinners" and to try to tell us we should not accept that it is, after eating and drinking, THE most driving force in any life form on the planet; the instinct to procreate to sustain the species.

 

One can never become "whole" and a mature and 100% thinking person while still subscribing to the punishment and reward system that Christianity designed so well.

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First one: What is God to me. That can't be answered simply without unraveling understandings first and then opening them into a different light. This will sound vague and nebulous I'm sure, but to my mind it is not. It is absolute clarity, of mind, heart, matter. The singular All, the One. It is timeless, infinite, Now. It is the "God" behind the masks of God. The transcendent formless infinite. Of course those are just descriptions, not definitions, and it is beyond all descriptions and definitions.

 

Now as to what it "means" to me, it's far less about suggested meaning to me (as that would suggest it as some symbolic metaphysic which serves as inspiration as it is about active presence of being. It is the present potential in all which is matter of pulling back the curtain so to speak to reveal, and then subsequently to grow into within fuller realization. What it "means" is really better stated as what is "Realized". It's not about imparted meaning, but direct knowledge of a fullness within and without.

 

You are very deep, Antlerman. I can see birdies flying over my head. I kind of get what you are trying to say, and you can correct me if I misunderstood, but you recognize God as an over all system of greatness and spender, a sense of majesty in the idea way of thinking that the creation is, in a sense, a kind of God. In other words, not a personal God, but God as everything we see, hear, touch, and everything that we cannot. In other words, the creation as kind of a God unto itself. Now I could be wrong, and if so, please correct me.

A good attempt on your part, but not quite. Not a system, but a reality of living; and experiential truth. Moreover, not a way of thinking, but being itself. Not a personal God? I would not say that at all. Rather the absolute fulfillment of fully actualized identity - not simply apart from ourselves but within ourselves in full and absolute Union. Conscious awareness of Self, with a capital S. Words cannot begin to express.

 

Nature is not God, but rather the unfolding expression of the Infinite; and God, is the face we put on that in order to process it with our reasoning minds, in whatever symbolic form we need.

 

Now, I can easily deconstruct the elements of your religious views, and any religious views for that matter to show that in its esoteric elements (it's internal, experiential pursuits) it is towards this Goal, and that the forms and representations it takes are always culturally and historically shaped. And secondly, I can show that the exoteric elements of these religions (the external forms, rituals, doctrines, practices), are largely adhered to as substitutes to the escoteric elements, wherein for the masses it is about defining their experience of God as the experience of their religion - exoterically.

 

I can kind of see where you are going. Like the sun God, or rain God, or the God within our selves. Animal Gods, star Gods, and Gods that were human at one time, as well as gods that no one can place their finger on. In this mind set, your thoughts were be quite accurate.

 

I am going to ask you a question however, if you except. I would like to show you that no other God can compare in any way shape or form to the one and only true God. I would like to show you, if all Gods are placed on the same scale, none can even come close to the Great I Am.

I would and will argue that all gods, including the Christian one, are not the Absolute, but reaches and expressions of That. I will grant there are places within Christian expression that in fact do reach beyond the religion itself into the transcendent, but, a big however, the vast majority of the religion reduces this into some form of religious specific dogma that drains the life straight out of it into the sorts of infant pablum the masses can easily gum in their substitute god that stave's off yet another day of facing their mortality in the face of the Infinite. Reread that. I think I just summed up the religious experience for the vast majority.

 

I know what you're hoping to say, but I can tell you that this great "I am" is not understood by even the majority of those who claim it, and that the meaning of that surpasses the very religion that espouses it. In short, the mystical eludes the religion, and God to one is not God to the other. Process that, and get back to me.

 

Within the esoteric elements, there is commonality throughout the world in all ages. God behind God. The infinite All. Love, Light, Truth, in Infinite Power.

 

As I said, this would be something that will leave you a bit challenged, or maybe not which would be a pleasant surprise.

 

I think I know where you are coming from, and there is some truth to that statement. However, just for starters, do you know of any other religion or God that is based on only grace and belief other than rituals and traditions?

I'm not going to go some road of who has the largest male member, but I will say that all religious express the Divine, and they also equally express man's substitutes for it. I'm not interested in which substitute has the biggest and coolest looking 'thingy'.

 

(Not that Christians do not make their own often, but I preach against this often (to my crowd of 2), as it is not founded in the bible) Despite being a Christian, I am not the average "holy roller" as some place all believers and I have many disagreements with many of the most popular denominations. I guess though, that is the freedom that God gave us all, the freedom to freely think for ourselves and to be our own on how we take the truth.

Kudos to you.

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First of all, I am impressed by the relatively respectful, open and thoughtful tone of your postings, which is definitely not the usual experience when having discussions with Christians in this space. I wish I could say it was.

For me, going beyond self I believe is to realize that someone created us and that one of our purposes is to help others and not live life for ourselves.

Pardon my slight edit of your statement but I was confused by your wording and I think this is what you meant. If I'm wrong, let me know. At any rate, can you explain the connection between these two things -- being created by someone and having the purpose of helping others and living selflessly? I don't see the connection. The connection I see is that helping others in some form is a way of creating purpose and meaning in one's life, but whether there is a Creator or a personal god interested in interacting with me seems to be an entirely separate question that would give rise to entirely separate responses.

 

Put another way: Why would the knowledge that there is a Creator provide motivation to good works when nothing else would?

I find myself with more self confidence and acts of being brave more now than I ever could in the past. You can call God my crutch, and that is OK, but for me, He is my life, and I cannot separate what means everything to me. I know how I use to live, and I believe it is still only God that holds me back from destroying myself and others. I was never violent per say, but certainly leaned toward trouble.

I realize it's something of a cliche to refer to religion as a crutch. It sounds dismissive, but I just want to clarify that I don't mean it in that way, any more than I would think less of someone with a broken leg using an actual crutch. A crutch is a tool, a legitimate means of temporary support. What you see as a final solution, I see as a transitional one, that's all. There are things beyond what you currently know, but that doesn't mean you're stupid.

 

I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Even if the Christian God were in the picture I think he would want to say "well done" to you for refraining from destroying yourself and others.

 

I believe you are holding yourself back, actually, but you lack the self confidence to own your own power so you project it onto a construct outside of yourself, so that you can say that the power is someone else's responsibility and that it is limitless. Actually you are right, it is limitless, it is only the location and ownership that you are in my view somewhat confused about.

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Do you believe the Earth and the Universe are only 6-10,000 years old? I wonder how you solve the conflict of the distance of all the stars and galaxies and the enormous time it must have taken for the light to travel here. Did God create the light in travel?

 

Antlerhead, my believe is that if God created the entire universe, would it be so hard for Him to create light already on the move and in place? I mean, did He not create the planets to already be in movement around the sun. It seems in my believe that God created everything already in movement. That just seems more logical to me. Thanks for asking.

I don't think I asked that question, but was someone else who did and you stuck it into this response. Nevertheless to respond to this, the problem with your thought there is that if this were so, that along with every other piece of evidence of that great ages of everything, the cosmos, stars, planets, life, etc, gives the very strong picture of a developing system - a system that we can watch in motion before our very eyes today in the same ways (we can see the birth of stars, the death of stars, etc). If God intentionally created it 6000 years ago, then he did so to make it look 14.5 billion years old!

 

If he did that, then us believing it to be 14.5 billion years old is exactly what God would have wanted us to believe! And what we are believing, is what God showed us, wanted us to think. So how is science 'against God' then in this then? And if you say that Genesis tells us otherwise, then if God is saying that in Genesis to be believed, and saying the opposite in his writing in the Cosmos itself, what does this say? Either God wants us to believe the evidence he created in the heavens, or the evidence in Genesis. What is this, a test of our faith in which evidence he offers? Or can all this be simplified enormously into one thing only: you are misreading Genesis?

 

PS Thanks for changing my stance on the side of my posts. :thanks:

The would have been Oroborous. I don't have that level of administrative access to change groups, and so forth. My access is about post and member moderation, such as screening posts and whatnot if deemed necessary.

 

To be honest, I am sensing you steering this towards get wrapped up in arguing on this simpler level, than the more frightening question of why you feel it is necessary to make science wrong in order for you to deal with a potential crisis of faith?

 

\ That is a fair question. First though, let me really do some research to see if in fact, science as you believe it is fact. What if science that cannot be proven either way leaves open the gap for the bible to be true. I will research and reply later on.

Here's the thing you need to understand. Science is not some Absolute Authority. Science, in fact is open-ended and as such is a far, far more powerful tool of gaining knowledge and understanding. Theories are not set in stone, they are subject to new information and modification in the pursuit of greater knowledge. Old ideas can and should be gotten rid of if new information completely negates their validity.

 

Now, contrast with someone's reading of Genesis! :HaHa: We have vast amounts of understanding these days we have accumulated in regards to the uses of myths in other cultures, the science higher criticism applied to literature, etc., that we can see Genesis in a whole new light. It is not the words of Moses at all. In fact the first five books of the Bible were written by 4 different groups of authors and a Redactor who stitched things together, spanning a long period of time beginning in the 7th Century B.C., not 1500 BC. The Genesis myths are actually two separate myths borrowed from other sources and woven together into Genesis, etc. There is a great deal of science from Biblical scholars that expose all this. But NO! It must be a closed understanding, a closed way of thinking because tradition can't be wrong! :HaHa:

 

And the result is a) growing knowledge b ) head in the sand Pick one.

 

The key for you? Get rid of the belief you need absolute authority. Why is that necessary?? Look at the nasty trap you get in when you do? Trust me, your faith if it is strong doesn't need it, nor is based on it. Remind me to explain the difference between faith and belief to you, and that both are replaced in direct apprehension. Remind me to talk about this....

 

View Postthe stranger, on 28 November 2010 - 06:39 PM, said:

In looking at more research, it is quite clear that the testing used is questionable at best.

 

Why are you so hopeful that that is the case? Weak faith?

 

Whether or not I am hopeful of this means nothing. If this is a true statement, would it not put every idea you stand on to test?

That's the very point I'm trying to make. My understanding is not based in my ideas about things. Do that, the sand shifts, the house falls. Embrace knowledge, let it inform your heart and mind bound in spirit. Boy, you understand that, and you will truly be light years beyond your peers.

 

The question I have to you is, is any site that believes in or supports creation false. If so, is this not a double standard. How can your sites be reliable and mine not if the same topics and test are the subject but the results are different?

If they reject the tools of knowledge or use bad science to make claims that strong evidence directly refutes - such as the age of the earth for one, then they are as wrong in that act as someone claiming science supports that UFO's are proven. It has nothing whatsoever to with beliefs in God. I for one believe all things come from God. I just don't see any need whatsoever to imagine it looks like anything other that what is being revealed by science. In that sense, in no way can you call me a Creationist, as that is specifically a pseudoscience, silliness masquerading as science to give it some illusion of credibility in the minds of those who respect science. I don't imagine God as some guy in a chair with a wand who waves it here, there's a star, waves it there, there's a cow, waves it there, there's a man.

 

Now I can get into tying all of this into how I view things, but that will get way too involved for here, delving into dynamic systems theories, emergent properties, psychology, sociology, anthropology, biology, and on and on an on. The problem the Christian runs into is everything is about trying to make it fit their belief. I would say what I see is what is revealed from what we are coming to understand. The minute everything has to fit a preconceived idea, is the minute knowledge fails and growth halts.

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So, here's a question, why is the Creationist date now set to 10,000 years? It's not Biblical. The date according to the Bible is 4000 years BC, so what changed the mind of all the "scientific" Creationists to think it's 10,000 years now?

 

Ouroborus, I agree with you that 4,000 years BC is biblical. It has not changed to 10,000 years in the eyes of the far majority and of those who take the bible literally. In saying that, there is a small hand full that do believe this way. Over the vast majority of Christians, however, the date has not changed, and is in fact the same. In fact, I have no idea where they get their figures, because it is clear the bible is not their main source.

Right.

 

So basically, a majority Christians trust the written record of some anonymous people from the past 2,500 years over dendrochronology. It's amazing how willing people are to be fooled by religious belief.

 

And a second question is, why is Bodie Hodge some kind of guru and specialist in geology, paleontology, chemistry, physics, and astronomy? He's a friggin' mechanical engineer. Don't take Bodie's word as the truth.

 

Yes, that sort of thing was pointed out by another. A valid point that makes things hard to understand or put together.

 

Concerning the rest of your post, I will check into your links and appreciate you posting them. About the bible and the 10,000 year thing, I could not agree more. You are right. Between one believes the bible or they believe something else.

 

Your answers certainly make it more understandable. I will deeply look into this soon. Thank you for letting me know the details.

 

PS Concerning your prayer, It is not like I have had a revelation or anything, but I thought you should be aware that I got a real feeling of relief as it pertains to how or what direction to pray for. I feel OK and clear spiritually to pray for the exact thing that you have requested. I am not jumping the gun, but just letting you know I am now praying for the exact request that you have made, to unfold (or to fold - Ha). God bless

The first sign would be when the Holy Spirit starts to give you details about what I'm asking for. Some of it you could find by searching this forum and read what I've written in the past, but some it must be given to you by your God.

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Do you believe the Earth and the Universe are only 6-10,000 years old? I wonder how you solve the conflict of the distance of all the stars and galaxies and the enormous time it must have taken for the light to travel here. Did God create the light in travel?

 

Antlerhead, my believe is that if God created the entire universe, would it be so hard for Him to create light already on the move and in place? I mean, did He not create the planets to already be in movement around the sun. It seems in my believe that God created everything already in movement. That just seems more logical to me. Thanks for asking.

The problem with that view is that God intentionally created the light from stars billions of lightyears away. It's deception. Basically God planted false evidence for the age of the Universe only to fool the scientists. A deceptive God is not a good god. You believe in a God who lies. That's also logical.

 

Consider this, there are 70 sixtillion stars in the universe, 99.9% of those stars are so far away that the light has seemingly traveled for longer than 6,000 years, but here's the real kicker. If the Bible is right that we soon will have a new heaven and earth (soon or 1,000 years from now?), it means that the original light from all those stars will never reach us. Put it this way, God must have put only light from all these stars, supernovas, and other events, in place, and no stars, no planets, no events, only the light/radiation/etc but not the real objects. It's ridiculous!!!

 

--edit--

 

And I agree with Antlerman, if God intentionally made the universe look like 14.5 billion years old, his intention was that we would figure that out and believe what we saw. Why would he write a Genesis story (book) and write a natural story (universe) and they would be in conflict? Is God in conflict with himself? Is he a liar? Is he deceptive? Is he confused? If you answer "no" to those questions, then you have to believe that nature tells the true Gospel of God, and the Bible is the addition, not the other way around.

 

While you're thinking about these things, here's another thing you could add to it. The Genesis story says that God ordered the oceans to produce life. He didn't create life in the oceans directly, he ordered the oceans to "bring forth" life. To me, that sounds like theistic evolution.

 

Thank you Ouroborus for your response on #502 (that'il get ya looking) I can appreciate your studies in this area. I guess time will determine if I find some of the same findings. If In in no way shape or form put science and the bible in the same setting, and I only believe based on "feelings" than you are right, I will have something to be concerned with. Thanks for the post.

The first step you should take is to read scientific books about this topic, not just books by apologists. Many apologist books are deceptive and full of false information. Some flat out lies about facts. Some make up facts. So you have to read books by people who actually have done the experiments and research and how they argue their findings. Don't take my word for it. But, even more important, don't the the apologists' word for it either

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my believe is that if God created the entire universe, would it be so hard for Him to create light already on the move and in place?

:lmao:

 

This guy is surely yanking our chains. :grin:

I don't think so. I used to believe the same thing 15 years ago.

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Wow. Ok, with your response, and antlerman's, my tiny brain is overloaded with info. Let me fully read these and I will respond to them. But to respond to your short question, is God a man? Unknown, although it does state He is. (Answering with the bible this time) As far as His likeness, why could it not be literally? It does say in bible that He has feet, hands, toes, and a backside.

 

So, does gawd have a penis? And if so what does he do with it?

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PS Thanks for changing my stance on the side of my posts. :thanks:

The would have been Oroborous. I don't have that level of administrative access to change groups, and so forth. My access is about post and member moderation, such as screening posts and whatnot if deemed necessary.

I am of the impression that it changes by itself based on the number of posts. Someone said that once you reach a certain number and/or pay for membership you can edit it yourself. Something to that effect. Mine has changed several times.

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PS Thanks for changing my stance on the side of my posts. :thanks:

The would have been Oroborous. I don't have that level of administrative access to change groups, and so forth. My access is about post and member moderation, such as screening posts and whatnot if deemed necessary.

I am of the impression that it changes by itself based on the number of posts. Someone said that once you reach a certain number and/or pay for membership you can edit it yourself. Something to that effect. Mine has changed several times.

I believe he is referring to be added to the "believers" group which has the Christian Cross symbol. That is only done by someone with Supermoderator level access. But you're right about switching from doubter, to skeptic, etc. That just happens via number of posts. Adding the big red letter A for Atheist is also something a Supermod has to do.

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First, I just want to say a big thank you for all of the replies and advise. Right now I am in some beginning stages to my research, thus one comment stuck out at me. The comment I believe was made by Ouroborus. He mentioned that many sites and even books have a twist of what the author wants you to believe and that is why we have to go to the direct test results.

 

I could not agree more as everything stated I found in my own life to be true. I have not fully checked all of the given sites out yet, but am doing this now (well, in a few minutes) and if anyone knows of any other such sites where one can look at the direct test and their results in plain view please let me know.

 

Antlerhead, you made some interesting comments. I will have many more questions and things to consider (probably for us both) fairly soon. Because of time restraints, I will not be responding much to comments as of right now (or I would never get to my study LOL) but after I really look into this and keeping all of your comments in the back of my mind, I will get back to you. It may take a few or more days, as I am not taking this lightly, and really want to know and see, and believe what ever the truth may be for myself, and not just another authors opinion.

 

Talk with ya soon, friend.

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Have you really thoroughly thought through what you're saying here? I doubt it, because the implication here is that nothing is actually sinful. All is permissible, after all, and comparing bad choices with a child innocently running into the street removes the "sin" aspect.

 

Well, when Paul writes this, he is writing in regards to the church and in living in the Spirit. Paul was actually talking about freedom here for the Christians instead of being bogged down by the OT practices and more. Paul makes things clear in his writing about sin and what it is. Just like my dog, naturally running in the road, it is my believe that humans are born with this sin nature, and thus always doing things that they regret. After all, what child is not self centered? I might add that many adults are too.

 

How is a dog sinning by running out in the road? That's ignorance, not sin, and doesn't make a good analogy here.

 

Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.2 Corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

 

These do not say that the serpent was satan, it says that snakes are shrewd and cunning. Of course, even if they did say that the serpent in the garden was satan, that wouldn't prove anything, but I see no reason why you'd bring these texts into the discussion when they do nothing to support your case.

 

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.Revelation 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

New International Version ©1984 by Biblica

 

As I said previously, Revelation does call satan "that old (ancient) serpent." However, Revelation was written many, many generations after Genesis by another author of another religion, so it does nothing to prove what was really meant in the Genesis text.

 

Think about it this way. If Alexander the Great wrote something down, and then an American president made a comment alluding to it but in a way that was different from what Alexander actually said, would it make any sense at all to insist that the president's comment proves that Alexander meant what the president said? I suspect that you'd see how utterly laughable that would be, yet you're doing essentially the same thing when you use the NT to try to prove that the garden story in Genesis meant something different from what it says.

 

Just because we do not read Satan in this passage does not mean it was not. Some things just make good understanding in scripture, even when not directly stated by name.

 

You're looking at this through the lens of christian indoctrination, my friend. Keep in mind that religion evolves, and christianity was not in existence when Genesis was written. Whoever wrote the garden story had NO knowledge of christianity, Jesus, the apostles, the NT writings, etc, so using all that stuff to suggest that the garden story means something different from what it says is unscholarly.

 

Besides, as I pointed out earlier, if the "serpent" in Genesis 3 was really just a manifestation of satan, then why did god curse serpents? Is your god really that unjust? If satan took on the form of a human, would it be just for god to punish YOU for something he did?

 

Who else would have tried to convince Eve to sin against God?

 

According to Genesis 3, a talking serpent could.

 

If they were immortal before "the fall," then what was the point of the "tree of life"?

 

A good question. I have not gave it much thought. Maybe now would be a good time.

 

More thought would be good. It sounds like you're a lot like I used to be, accepting dogma without really thoroughly thinking it through.

 

Allow me to point out that when god kicked Adam & Eve out of the garden he said that the "tree of life" would impart eternal life. If that were true, then that would negate your previous claim that Adam & Eve were created immortal, would it not? After all, what would be the point of putting a tree there to give them something they already had?

 

Thus, if they were not initially immortal, then your claim that god only warned that eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil would cause them to lose their immortality seems erroneous, does it not? Therefore, wouldn't it make more sense to see god's warning as actually pertaining to literal death? In turn, then, god's warning was a lie, since they didn't die that day.

 

Keep thinking, man, as it may eventually open your eyes.

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