Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Crazy Donna]

Did Darwin become a Christian on his deathbed?

 

My linkhttp://carm.org/secular-movements/evolution/did-darwin-become-christian-his-deathbed

 

 

This site gives clear indications that this is a true statement. If so, the very foundings of the theory is then in question, as the founder seems to make it known that he was wrong and wanted Christ preached to the world.

Charles Darwin's 'conversion' is an urban legend spread by a woman called Elizabeth Hope, who intended to discredit him. She had, according to his family, never been to their house or met him when the supposed deathbed confession took place. Furthermore, the 'letter' she had written about the event was first published in an American newspaper, over twenty years after his death. Surely if such a momentous event had occurred, would she not have published the information immediately, in a paper in England? Surely if Darwin had made a deathbed confession, he would have made it to his wife, who was a christian her whole life, and who nursed him until he died. His family always maintained that the deathbed confession was a fiction, invented by her to discredit their father. It has been dismissed by historians as bullshit, but obviously you're so gullible you just believe it hook line and sinker.

 

Seriously, think about it. If he'd made a deathbed confession, it would have been HUGE NEWS. Why wait twenty years before you publish that news? And if it was true, why did his family deny it? Surely, since his wife WAS a christian, she would have wanted nothing better than to advertise the fact that her husband had converted to christianity on his deathbed. His family denied the conversion took place, and the conversion, unconfirmed by Darwin himself, is in conflict with the many occasions where Darwin said things to the contrary. I am more likely to believe books published by Darwin as evidence of his attitudes on this, than I am of a letter, published in a newspaper over twenty years after he died, by a woman who knew it was such ridiculous bullshit that she would not even sign her full name to it.

 

You also make the incredibly stupid mistake of assuming that had Charles Darwin converted to christianity, that this would magically make evolution redundant. Evolution deals with things that have actually happened, not people's beliefs. It is dependent on evidence (and there is massive amounts of evidence to support evolution) not on what people believe. Even if your ludicrous assertion is true, it does not mean that evolution is bunkum, proving which was your original intention when you came to this site to spread your sickening nonsense. But I suppose if you can believe that virgins magically give birth to babies, and that Pi is 3, you can believe any nonsense, can't you.

 

Maybe you should go to the library and read a few primary school textbooks on science before you come here and make these ridiculous posts. You really are amusingly ignorant. Does your Mum know you're on this site?

[★ Citsonga ★]

I think often we tend try to put God in a way that we can wrap Him up in our minds, but if we could do that, God would not be God.

 

I gather that you're referring to the idea that we cannot fully understand god. What's interesting is how christians often, in an attempt to sound reasonable, claim that christianity is perfectly logical, so much so that we'd have to be fools to not understand it to be true. Yet when confronted with arguments that they can't answer, they backpedal and say that it's beyond our understanding.

 

Do you believe that you will wake up in the morning? Get to work? Have air to breath? Live to see another day? I think that whether we admit it or not, we base much on our lives on that of which we do not know or cannot see. No proof, just assumption based on history.

 

Indeed, those things are verifiable. I've woken up every morning in my life, had air to breathe every day, haven't died any day yet, and I've worked most days for many years. Thus, assuming that the same patter will most likely continue tomorrow is a warranted assumption. It's not iron-clad, of course, and I most certainly could be dead before tomorrow; however, it's not likely.

 

Yet God has shown Himself in all the history in which we look, yet we say, "show yourself, face to face." How is it we can live our lives on assuming but not believe in God with everything we see.

 

If you really believe that god has shown himself in history, then why the hell is he not showing himself now? Why is it that everything religionists point to as evidence of their god can easily be understood naturalistically? Why can't god make himself obvious enough that there's no way to mistake him? Why can't he make himself so obvious that everyone would know him and not interpret him differently?

 

Why is it that certain regions have certain dominant religions? If you grew up in a Muslim environment, you would most likely be a Muslim. If you grew up in a Hindu environment, you'd most likely be a Hindu. If you grew up in a Mormon environment, you'd most likely be a Mormon. And so on.

 

Do you not see that people's religious views are vastly more dependent on demographics than logic and reason? Why isn't your god powerful enough to overcome that?

 

Are any of you aware of any other planet that supports such life as ours?

 

What does it matter? With a cosmos as vast as ours, there probably are other planets out there that can support life. Just because they haven't been found yet doesn't mean they don't exist. But even if they don't, who cares?

 

Can any one of you tell me what the chances would be for such a creation such as ours to just happen? Can anyone show me an example of evolution that is an upgrade, and not a down grade or equal?

 

With a cosmos as vast as we have, it's really not a matter of chance.

 

If you really want answers to your science questions, why not ask some scientists?

 

I just hope that all of the information that you put in your minds to help you disbelieve in God holds up for you when our Creator comes to earth again

 

I don't put information in my mind in an effort to help me disbelieve in god. The christian assumption that nonbelievers have to try to disbelieve is just plain stupid, my friend. I disbelieve christianity because of a lack of evidence for it and abundant biblical evidence against it.

 

The god of the bible is a human invention, and that's a fact. I don't say that because of wanting it to be true (indeed, I did not want it to be true when I started doubting), but because I have found it to be true.

 

If there is a creator and he comes to earth, it definitely won't be the made-up god of the bible. Thus, you'd be the one here who's in for the biggest surprise.

 

I have given clear evidence, and have much more of it that I have not given, to believe in God.

 

You have not given any real evidence. You have reiterated some of the same tired old flimsy arguments that have been used for years. We do not find them convincing, because they are rather weak. A perfect god could surely do better than your "god" has done. In fact, a perfect god wouldn't need a mere mortal on a message board to argue for him, he could make himself known on his own.

 

For those who say there is no evidence, it is only because you accept what you believe to be true, just as I do.

 

No, I have not rejected evidence for god based on my beliefs. For your information, I was a devout believer for most of my life thus far. I had been fully convinced that christianity was absolute truth, and therefore would not have rejected christianity without being overwhelmed with evidence against it.

 

Unfortunately for my faith, though, as I studied the bible in depth (in an effort to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our lord and savior Jesus christ" and to "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks"), I came to the very unwelcome realization that the bible is NOT the perfect, consistent book that christians claim it is.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I am saddened one can look around at this world and creation and believe it all came by a big bang of chance.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I am saddened that so many look to a hodge-podged book of fables as a divinely inspired message and then assume that those of us who find it unbelievable are somehow deluded by an imaginary being from those fables.

[★ Citsonga ★]

In my next area of debate, in the topic just below this one, I will go further into the bible being the absalute. Call me crazy, but the bible has stood the test of time like none other.

 

OK, you're crazy.

 

You asked for it.

 

I feel sorry for those who at this time no longer believe. I just cannot help but believe.

 

I feel sorry for those who at this time still believe. I understand where you're coming from, though, because there was a time when I just could not help but believe. Indoctrination is a powerful thing.

 

After seeing how twisted christianity is, I now cannot help but to not believe it.

 

When it comes to chance, I know better than to take my chances.

 

Oh, so does that mean you'll become a Muslim, just in case Islam is true? Or are you becoming a Hindu, just in case Hinduism is true? Or are you becoming a Jehovah's Witness, just in case the Watchtower is true? Or are you becoming a Jew? Or Buddhist? Or Mormon? Or all the other religions out there?

 

Better not take any chances, you know. Better make sure you cover all the bases!

 

Let me say this, it is very easy to begin to have doubts.

 

Not for me. I didn't doubt until I was 29. I was so convinced that christianity was true and that I was to lean not on my own understanding but to have faith in god, I was so indoctrinated with the belief that the bible had to be perfect, that I just could not entertain the possibility that it wasn't true.

 

Now, I did change my theological views while a believer, so it's not that I was rigidly committed to the interpretations I was raised with. I did use my noggin and try to understand the "truth" of the bible, since I didn't want a piggy-back faith of just following doctrines I had been taught. Yet I still maintained the piggy-back faith in the bible being the perfect, inerrant, inspired word of god.

 

Breaking that mindset was not easy, nor was it something that I desired to happen. I simply wanted to grow in my faith, I was seeking god's face, praying and studying the bible. Yet, as a devout believer, it was studying the bible that helped me see through the nonsense.

 

You know, if the bible had been internally consistent (as conservative christians claim), I would still be a believer today. That's actually a sad thing, though, because being internally consistent would not automatically make the message true, and therefore I could still be believing a lie. However, it was those inconsistencies that made me start to realize that the bible was not what I had been told over and over and over again that it was.

 

In other words, they start with the conclusion and then manipulate the details to try to make them seem to support the preconceived conclusion. Science, on the other hand, is about starting with the evidence and then drawing conclusions from that evidence.

 

My friend, I do not believe that for a second. I believe that in our hearts, whether you or the ones doing the test, we already have conclusions that we expect, and want to see based on what we already believe. I do not believe common scientific belief is ever held with a real thought of there being a real God. This always makes a huge difference in the end results, if we have to do math problems to come up with those results, whether for or against what we want or believe.

 

Of course you don't believe it, and I can understand why. I used to be just as brainwashed by creationist nonsense as you are, so I know where you're coming from.

 

As a christian, I did have conclusions that I expected, and that's why it took a looooooooooooooong time for me to see through the lies and nonsense. I just couldn't consider the possibility that the bible wasn't the perfect word of god, so I spent a lot of time "reconciling" things.

 

However, I also considered TRUTH to be of utmost importance. Thus, once I finally started realizing that the preconceived notion that the bible was the perfect word of god simply is not true, I had no choice but to abandon it. Now, if I had ONLY been concerned with conclusions that I had expected, I would not have been able to let the evidence change my mind. So, your implication that the expected conclusions always trump the evidence is completely unfounded.

 

Similarly, there was a time when most scientists believed in god to some degree or other. If your implication that expected conclusions always trump the evidence was true, then we'd still have most scientists being theists/deists. The fact that there has been a big shift in that department is evidence that evidence does matter in the science realm.

 

I am not criticising you for doubting, but I am asking you to truly reconsider other "truths".

 

For your information, I was a firm believer for many years. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I've studied the bible far more than you have. I even memorized huge portions of the bible (3 complete epistles, a few other chapters and a lot of other passages, totaling around 900 verses). I taught Sunday school, had an ordained minister (with a seminary degree, of course) tell me I knew more about the bible than he did, had another minister who suggested I consider going into the ministry, had others looking up to me as having a "strong faith" and "a lot of bible knowledge" (not that I wanted to be looked up to, but it happened), was better at "reconciling" bible passages than others I knew, etc. I was ON your side for 29 years, so if either of us needs to consider/reconsider the other side, it's not me.

 

Once I found out that the bible is FAR from perfect and CANNOT be the word of god, I realized how misplaced my trust in it was. No longer having to force everything to fit the bible, I was able to recognize that there was no reason to demonize those who were simply going where the evidence leads.

 

I will be dealing with this issue a little later. It should become quite interesting.

 

I'm sure it should be. Are you ready to learn a few things? Are you ready to set preconceived notions aside and look at what the text actually says?

 

Oh, by the way, you never did answer my question about why god would punish serpents for something that satan did. Still hung up on that one?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Maybe you should go to the library and read a few primary school textbooks on science before you come here and make these ridiculous posts.

 

But why do that when you can just go to the Answers In Genesis site and assume that everything there is accurate because it supports the bible?

[Kuroikaze]

Do you believe it is possible, based on the sites that I have provided, as well as many I did not copy down, that many of the test used to support the earth and its age are questionable at best, and cannot really be relied on based on the clear evidence?

 

I haven't looked at the links you posted, but I very much doubt I would find their claims very reasonable.

 

I would be willing to bet actual money that at leas one of the links you provide argues that geological dating is unreliable because they date fossils based upon the age of the rocks and date rocks based upon the age of fossils, even though scientists do no such thing. Radiometric dating is incredibly complex, but as far as I can understand the process it seems quite reliable. Sure, the earth might not be exactly 4.3 billion years old, but 6,000-10,000 years old like the YEC claim? not a chance.

 

Many here state they could not believe anymore based on evidence against the belief of the bible. First, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt the information that you had received for evidence for evolution was true and not twisted. After all, if Christians twist everything around, could not those do the same that have their own agenda?

 

The only agenda scientists have as a general group is a dedication to the scientific method, which is designed to eliminate individual agendas. Is it perfect? Of course not, but it is not people I trust, it is a process. What process is used in creation science to weed out bad ideas?

 

Secondly, creation science is twisted in the sense that it misrepresents evolutionary theory. It sets up straw man and knocks them over, as far as I can see there are no biologists who are misrepresenting creation "science," or even speaking about it very much, with the exception of a few like Dawkins who are involved in public science education.

 

Thirdly, the theory, as I understand it, makes sense and seem to work, it also have plenty of peer reviewed evidence to support it, the process I mentioned before would suggest it would be incredibly difficult to fake the peer review process. So, twisted? why would scientists put forth an entirely reasonable and well supported theory to the public while simultaneously believing an unreasonable unscientific theory behind the scenes? Even George Orwell would not find such a conspiracy theory believable

 

Some of the sites given, and many more not given, have very detailed reports and scientific research that seems to support the bible, and not evolution. Would you still believe if the information that you received some time ago had supported creation? In other words, where did your info come from? Did they too have their own agenda? After all, evolution is a fairly new belief.

 

The key word is "seems" If they have such solid evidence why can they not get this information published through the peer review process? Why do so few of them have any scientific credentials in biology? Or any valid research in ANY area not involved in disproving evolution? If the evidence is so solid why must so many Creationist groups rely on lies and fake evidence, like the one who claimed to have found a giant (like the one david killed) or how every few years some group says they found the "Ark" ect.

 

Most of these pieces of evidence fall apart once one knows just a little bit more about the story.

 

I think often we tend try to put God in a way that we can wrap Him up in our minds, but if we could do that, God would not be God. Do you believe that you will wake up in the morning? Get to work? Have air to breath? Live to see another day? I think that whether we admit it or not, we base much on our lives on that of which we do not know or cannot see. No proof, just assumption based on history. Yet God has shown Himself in all the history in which we look, yet we say, "show yourself, face to face." How is it we can live our lives on assuming but not believe in God with everything we see.

 

Um, I think you have a basic misunderstanding about things, what you call "assumption based on history" is in fact an application of inductive logic. You assume that "proof" can only be used in the strict deductive sense, but people rarely proof things in that sense.

 

Further you cannot use the fact that we breath or live as evidence of gods existence, in order to do this you would need to compare a universe WITH a god to one without a god and find that the one without a god had no air. It is impossible to make such a comparison and it is equally impossible to show a mechanism that connects gods existence with the existence of air, so this argument means little to me.

 

Are any of you aware of any other planet that supports such life as ours? Can any one of you tell me what the chances would be for such a creation such as ours to just happen? Can anyone show me an example of evolution that is an upgrade, and not a down grade or equal?

 

Ok, now, no offense intended, but this statement tells me something about yourself, and it tells me that you need to learn more about evolutionary theory, and about statistics. Do you have any idea how many planets are in this galaxy alone? No, because no one does really, so it is impossible to calculate the odds of earth like planets existing, nor do we know if life even requires it, many types of life my be able to evolve on planets quite different than ours. However, assume the chance is only 1 in a million. If there are a billion planets in the galaxy (certainly a low estimate) that would mean there are likely 1000 earth like planets in our galaxy alone.

 

Also, there is no such thing as "upgrade" and "downgrade" in evolution. Is a human better than a lion? We are certainly better at using tools and at higher brain functions, but just try to outrun one that is chasing you. You seem to think evolution is about getting "better" when all it is about is survival. We have plenty of evidence of animals changing, as well as fossils of thousands of transitional species. We have well documented every mechanism in evolution, including mutation, and speciation (animals changing enough so as to not be able to reproduce with one another) has been observed in animals within our own lifetimes. While there are many things in evolutionary theory that are not understood it is an undeniable FACT that evolution happens.

 

I just hope that all of the information that you put in your minds to help you disbelieve in God holds up for you when our Creator comes to earth again. I have given clear evidence, and have much more of it that I have not given, to believe in God. For those who say there is no evidence, it is only because you accept what you believe to be true, just as I do.

 

Well I am not terribly worried about an event that will never happen, while I am sure you accept what you believe as true, the evidence you have accepted to justify this is qualitatively bad by normal standards of evidence.

[Xerces]

Re: Even so, didn't Spinoza define (and prove) God without the Bible and without the Jewish faith? So why does the Old Testament somehow prove Spinoza's God?

 

 

True, Spinoza proved without a doubt that "God" exists. on the very 1dst page of The Ethocs. So that is One Proof without the Bible.

 

The Second Proof is the one I noted in Deut 7:6-7

 

So now you have 2 separately sourced Proofs.

 

As someone earlier suggested on here I think that Jesus original message was the same as Spinoza's God/Nature....

The Kingdom of God is like a mustard Seed, the wheat, yeast, the hidden treasure (within everything) the net,....

 

But Jesus best description of the Kingdom of God is found in Luke 17:21 "The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU. Within You... not in the midst, not amongst (but those also) but WITHIN YOU. http://www.The-Kingd...ou.blogspot.com

 

-------------------------

All you need is Love.

 

 

 

 

The kingdom of god is in the bathtubs where babies have purposelessly drowned, such a good god! I get a chub thinking about him.

[Guest Valk0010]

Still haven't told me or if you had I would like it not to be lost in a bunch of text, how our geologic history could happen in 10000 years and not kill us?

[Antlerman]

I agree completely with you A-man (except about making a choice), and I don't know if you have realized that I do have a "God"-image of my own.

 

It started actually several years ago and has developed over time. And I have a strong feeling that we share this image, you and I. I see the world, reality, the universe, nature, all that exist is part of a power far greater than us individuals. This power is not personal like the Christian God, so I still feel that I can say I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the traditional God. Instead, I have give the name "God" to the things that are.

Why yes we indeed do very seem similar, Brother Hans. I do see it as "personal" however in the sense that it is full, active, conscious mind; awareness, love, etc. It gets tricky if you start calling it theistic, as theism for me is more a mask, a face put on that. That face is always associated with our cultural context in highly, extremely transcended form. In essence it takes our ways of interpreting experiences symbolically and supercharges it. But it is what is behind and beyond that mask that I would call the Infinite, even though you can say that a direct theistic experience is in itself Infinite. For me, if pressed for a designation, you could call me transtheist. God's God, so to speak - Godhead, All, One, Emptiness; Formless; Void; I-I.

 

To say atheist doesn't quite convey that as it means something pretty specific in modern use.

 

My change came when I read about how some scientist explained that consider the universe and the world we live in is a result of a process of given physical laws, and that this process gave rise to life and consciousness, it means that life and consciousness is an innate potential in the physical laws of nature. Life and consciousness is part and the offspring of the physical world. We are the sons and daughters of God, God Nature.

We do share this in many regards. I see it as evolving into states of God-consciousness. We can trace the progression of our states of consciousness over history in our evolution. There are clear lines of shift expressed in the evolution of our symbols, our myths, our modes of thought. When Carl Sagan said, 'we are the universe's way of coming to know itself', many a mystic smiled knowingly.

 

 

The part of making a choice, you said

If I may? I don't like to feel like any of my experiences were a cheat to me, as in reality I was a participant in that process. I chose to believe, and it suited me for reasons. Then things changed from several directions, not the least of which was an internal change that external circumstances forced to the front. Nothing from outside suddenly creates that on the inside, but does in fact often facilitate it coming to the surface or to a head.

Even if we make a choice, we make the choice based on what we know. And we have a choice of knowing more or learning more about what we believe in.

 

As a Christian, I was terrified of reading literature that would contradict my faith. So I made a decision to stay illiterate about evolution and old age earth because I believed that what I believe was the truth. Not until I was faced with too much of reality that didn't fit my belief, did I realize that I was wrong, and I started to change on the inside.

 

Considering that we are part and one with the world and our environment, I'd say there is a strong connection between external and internal. The choice comes from inside based on what we experience and learn from the external. What we experience and what we learn is in turn based on what direction we decide to walk. So it's a symbiotic relationship between internal and external, choice and experience, mind over matter and matter over mind.

 

It still means to me that I feel cheated of not having the knowledge I know have until now.

 

I suspect my views are very much alike Einstein's, Spinoza's, and other naturalists. And I'm not afraid of calling it whatever I want, even God, but I tend to avoid it only because of the confusion it creates in dialogue with those who believe in a personal God.

I on the other hand... I push the envelope all the time. I really appreciate what DesertBob said saying that with my views he sees no "cognitive dissonance". I considered that very high praise from someone I consider with great regard. In some ways, I think opening up dialog on this level - post Christian, post-mythic, within and beyond the rational space is important in the grander scheme of things. At least, that's how I process this.

 

The part of making a choice, you said

If I may? I don't like to feel like any of my experiences were a cheat to me, as in reality I was a participant in that process. I chose to believe, and it suited me for reasons. Then things changed from several directions, not the least of which was an internal change that external circumstances forced to the front. Nothing from outside suddenly creates that on the inside, but does in fact often facilitate it coming to the surface or to a head.

Even if we make a choice, we make the choice based on what we know. And we have a choice of knowing more or learning more about what we believe in.

 

As a Christian, I was terrified of reading literature that would contradict my faith. So I made a decision to stay illiterate about evolution and old age earth because I believed that what I believe was the truth. Not until I was faced with too much of reality that didn't fit my belief, did I realize that I was wrong, and I started to change on the inside.

 

Considering that we are part and one with the world and our environment, I'd say there is a strong connection between external and internal. The choice comes from inside based on what we experience and learn from the external. What we experience and what we learn is in turn based on what direction we decide to walk. So it's a symbiotic relationship between internal and external, choice and experience, mind over matter and matter over mind.

 

It still means to me that I feel cheated of not having the knowledge I know have until now.

Yes, but everything you said is what I was saying. In hindsight, you feel cheated. But you didn't feel cheated at the time. I completely agree in the strong, symbiotic relationship. I absolutely agree. But then where does the blame really lay? In the system? Or you and the system in that relationship? Our contexts very much can either enhance or resist that internal pull. It's about structural supports in relation to existential reach. It's a constant relationship in development.

 

I'll stop here for now as I'm out of time....

[Ouroboros]

Why yes we indeed do very seem similar, Brother Hans. I do see it as "personal" however in the sense that it is full, active, conscious mind; awareness, love, etc. It gets tricky if you start calling it theistic, as theism for me is more a mask, a face put on that. That face is always associated with our cultural context in highly, extremely transcended form. In essence it takes our ways of interpreting experiences symbolically and supercharges it. But it is what is behind and beyond that mask that I would call the Infinite, even though you can say that a direct theistic experience is in itself Infinite. For me, if pressed for a designation, you could call me transtheist. God's God, so to speak - Godhead, All, One, Emptiness; Formless; Void; I-I.

Agree.

 

To say atheist doesn't quite convey that as it means something pretty specific in modern use.

I know. Labels tend to be misleading and confusing. We pick a label we think fits us, then we learn some details about what it means, things we don't agree with, and in the end, no label really fits.

 

We do share this in many regards. I see it as evolving into states of God-consciousness. We can trace the progression of our states of consciousness over history in our evolution. There are clear lines of shift expressed in the evolution of our symbols, our myths, our modes of thought. When Carl Sagan said, 'we are the universe's way of coming to know itself', many a mystic smiled knowingly.

Agree.

 

I on the other hand... I push the envelope all the time. I really appreciate what DesertBob said saying that with my views he sees no "cognitive dissonance". I considered that very high praise from someone I consider with great regard. In some ways, I think opening up dialog on this level - post Christian, post-mythic, within and beyond the rational space is important in the grander scheme of things. At least, that's how I process this.

Fair enough.

 

Yes, but everything you said is what I was saying. In hindsight, you feel cheated. But you didn't feel cheated at the time.

Very true.

 

I completely agree in the strong, symbiotic relationship. I absolutely agree. But then where does the blame really lay?

Nowhere and everywhere. I can't really blame anything or anyone. I know it's how the system works. But it doesn't completely take away the feeling.

 

In the system? Or you and the system in that relationship? Our contexts very much can either enhance or resist that internal pull. It's about structural supports in relation to existential reach. It's a constant relationship in development.

Absolutely. But we can still feel a loss of time we wasted on things that didn't bring us up into a better understanding of reality. And it's a feeling I don't think ever will completely go away.

 

Put it this way, I wish I had realized things 10 years ago. I don't mind the first 20 years (or perhaps the first 10-15) of my Christian life. I made good friends and had a good family. However, I wish that I had learned certain truths much earlier than I did, so I could have made a few better choices, choices that were based on "faith" in God which didn't really work out so well...

[the stranger]

First, to my friend Ouroboris.

 

You said a couple things that I know are true and will not change if left is as. The first thing you said is I would not change my belief in Jesus no matter how many books I read to show "proof" of evolution or the non existence of God. You are right, my friend. You really are. But my friend, you are not quite in the clear yourself. You state the only way that you will believe in God is if He shows Himself to you to be real. In other words, no amount of information that I could give would change your belief. We are alike in this situation. In fact, I believe most on this site feel the same way.

 

Romans 8:16 (New Living Translation)

 

16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children

 

I guess this has to be the answer for my stance, and I have to admit that cannot be changed.

 

Matthew 13:53-58 (New Living Translation)

 

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

53 When Jesus had finished telling these stories and illustrations, he left that part of the country. 54 He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” 55 Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph,[a] Simon, and Judas. 56 All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?” 57 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

 

Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family.” 58 And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.

 

 

Now my friend, please do not take this the wrong way. I know you are sincere in everything that you have told me about your past, and if you take this the wrong way, you may think that I am just calling you names as to you refusing to believe, and that is not my intent.

 

I want to forget about the past for this second. Let's just let it go for now. I urge you to do this because I really do feel some resentment toward God on your behalf.

 

I have had this too, and in fact, I told God He what i thought about some of His decisions and told Him, in fact, just because I want to be forgiving like He taught, that I would forgive Him. Does this make biblical scene? Only in the fact that He loves us so much that He will take the blame. He is just that big. After all, He already did up on the cross. After doing this, I felt relieved and moved forward with my growth in Christ.

 

God is big enough to take our blame. He will carry it in His shoulders. Go ahead, blame God, He will let you. Give Him the load, and he will take it.

 

I believe that when we have real issues in our lives, even more so when we believe in Jesus, and God does not show Himself in the way we would like Him to, we get very upset. Even though we try to put it off, it begins to grade us, and it starts effecting every thought we have about our God.

 

All I am asking is that you give God another chance. Tell Him you forgive Him. He will take the blame. Then just let your eyes be more open and your ears be more alert, and I know that God will show himself to you.

 

================================================================================================

 

Ouroboris, you know I had left this site for a while before, mainly based on not understanding about the difference between us, and the different results. I still do not have all of the answers and I will not pretend that I do, but God has made Himself real to me more times than I could ever count. I do walk with Him, I do talk with him, I do work with him, and even now as I am typing these very words, my friend, He is right beside me.

 

Believe me, my life is not perfect and without troubles, but He is and has been with me every step of the way. Even when I thought He was gone.

 

====================================================================================================

 

One more comment I saw on normal bases was worshiping God out of fear and hell. I tried that once as a kid, but that never worked, and I believe one can never have a loving relationship with a God who they think is out to get them, and to send them to hell on a silly mistake level. If Satan had his way, we would all be in hell. If god wanted any of you to be in hell, why on earth are you here?

 

We Christians (at least i hope) worship God out of his love for us, not being fearful of hell.

 

 

Romans 8:38-39 (New Living Translation)

 

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

======================================================================================================

 

I could respond all day and night to all of the responses, but I think the far majority of them rest with the above statements. I have no urge to try to convince any of you to believe in creation. My real intent was to see if there was truth in your responses. In that there was some truth for sure, but here is the thing.

 

Most all of you stated now or before that the insight that made you doubt Gods very being was that of a non believer. You all already know the conversations about such. You know the story, "What does a believer have in common with a non believer?" I am not trying to bash anybody, but just saying to all of my "brothers" out there, that if the bases for your unbelief was based on the wisdom of a non believer, what results were you expecting? Between we believe or we do not believe, and that will determine what we accept and what we will not accept. The bible makes it clear faith will be given to anyone that asks. But don't ask a non believer, because the results will never leave you on the believing side. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, but it has to do with the heart, thus we have to make sure our information comes from those who also believe.

 

I know I may of offended many here today. I still care about you all and will not stop praying for you. I know that i am on a Ex-Christian site, and if my being here is something that the moderators of this site do not want, I will leave. I am not here to convince, but just to defend.

 

The main reason I came on this site to begin with, believe or not, was trying to understand how a site such as this could ever be. To be honest, even today I only partly understand. I cannot help but to think much of it has to do with bad info or feeling abandoned or hurt by God.

 

If allowed to stay, I will tackle the tough questions of the bible next. (topic below this one) I am sure that we will not agree with each other here either, but I think if we are ready, we can both learn some new things about the bible, no matter what our belief.

 

 

I consider you all my friends, no matter what way you believe, and whether I am still accepted on this site or not, that truth will remain.

 

God bless

 

 

PS I will be checking the sites given (I already checked most of them, and some of those answers could be found in the next discussion) and later responding to the post that do not directly relate to what has already just been discussed or will/would be talked about on the next topic.

[Kuroikaze]

 

The main reason I came on this site to begin with, believe or not, was trying to understand how a site such as this could ever be. To be honest, even today I only partly understand. I cannot help but to think much of it has to do with bad info or feeling abandoned or hurt by God.

 

 

No offense meant, but I have heard this before.

 

I was never hurt by god, I simply came to a place where i realized there was no god hurting anyone.

The claim that god exists must be backed up by evidence, and until evidence can be produced I see no reason to believe.

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with some emotional trauma, and I don't know what bad info I could have gotten, unless you are suggesting that standards of evidence I use are bad...but then your argument is not just with me, but with the entire empirical method.

[DesertBob]

But we can still feel a loss of time we wasted on things that didn't bring us up into a better understanding of reality. And it's a feeling I don't think ever will completely go away.

 

Put it this way, I wish I had realized things 10 years ago. I don't mind the first 20 years (or perhaps the first 10-15) of my Christian life. I made good friends and had a good family. However, I wish that I had learned certain truths much earlier than I did, so I could have made a few better choices, choices that were based on "faith" in God which didn't really work out so well...

I understand where you are coming from here. Like you, I feel that Christianity kept me within its grasp long after it had served a useful purpose in legitimately nurturing and supporting me at a developmental level I was not yet ready to move on from. In my case, I'd say that the faith was in many ways a good thing for me, up to about my mid-teens. After that, it not only held me back; it encouraged me to make profoundly unwise life decisions and, perhaps worse, discouraged me from reversing those decisions when it was patently obvious that they were causing me and people around me a great deal of pain. In a sense, I can for example lay my first marriage and the fallout I experience from it to this day, squarely at the feet of fundamentalist dogma. I can, in a sense, say that I lost the best years of my life to that whole debacle, and that the not-so-faint echoes of it still vex me today.

 

However, I've lost that "feeling" you talk about, although I suspect it was never quite as strong as it seems to be for you, and here's why. I came to a place several years ago where I was able to fully own the role I played in it, which I now realize was not insignificant. I wanted and needed Christian dogma to be true and I willingly gave myself up to it. I did this because it was more important to me to please people and avoid conflict than to follow my intuition, intellect and conscience where it was trying to lead me. I did it because I had ego invested in being "right". I did it because the Christian mythos pleased me and I thought I could live it out. I very much wanted to be the favored son of God Almighty, ruler of heaven and earth. I very much wanted to live out the Christian version of the Parsifal legend, to be the mythic hero who could slay the dragon of my wife's mental illness -- despite the fact that trained mental health professionals could not -- because, after all, I had God on my side and they didn't. In short, I was able to admit that I had been an arrogant ass with my head stuffed firmly into my rectum. It was a painful experience, prying my skull out of an orifice it didn't belong in, but it allowed me to let go of my resentment of Christianity.

 

I'm not presuming to say that any of these things are true of you or even that you also had a role to play ... I'm just putting it out there for what it's worth. Every scam takes advantage of its marks, and should bear the responsibility for doing so; but the only reason there are marks (and why some marks are easier than others) is because there is a sucker born every minute. And I recognize that I was one of those suckers. If there is any residual anger, it is for myself, because no matter how seductive Christianity was, I was still a free moral agent and I did not have to allow myself to be seduced.

 

Another thing that moderates my resentment towards Christianity is this thought-experiment: If my nearly 54 year old self could go back and sit down in the flesh with, say, my 18 year old self and have a heart to heart talk with him, describe everything that was to transpire and how it was going to go down, and beg him to see the light -- would he listen? If I'm completely honest with myself, I'd have to say, no. He would dismiss me as a trick of the devil, or as an alternate destiny to be avoided by redoubling his efforts to be a Dedicated Christian™. In other words if I could go back and talk to my 18 year old self I would either accomplish nothing, or make matters even worse. My mind was, at that point, firmly shut. Furthermore, I am, today, everything that I loathed at the age of 18. Not only am I an Old Person, the bane of any 18 year old; I am a backslider-cum-atheist, divorced, remarried, widowed because I could not bring physical healing to my second wife and probably that was a judgment on me for my earlier sin of divorce anyway; now living in sin with another atheist who once had an abortion and is herself divorced and widowed, semi-estranged from my daughter, and the list goes on. I'm the sort of person I looked on at the age of 18, and judged and dismissed out of hand. I'd have no credibility. I'm a total and utter, abject failure from the naive perspective of an ardent believer who had, up to that point in time, lived essentially a charmed life that he could attribute to the blessing and favor of God Himself.

 

So yes, I've suffered a great deal because of Christian ideation, but no one held a gun to my head and forced me to act contrary to my own self interests, either; I did it willingly, even eagerly. At the end of the day, there's enough blame to go around. It just is what it is.

 

I don't know if this helps in the slightest, but there it is, for what it's worth.

[Ouroboros]

You said a couple things that I know are true and will not change if left is as. The first thing you said is I would not change my belief in Jesus no matter how many books I read to show "proof" of evolution or the non existence of God. You are right, my friend. You really are. But my friend, you are not quite in the clear yourself. You state the only way that you will believe in God is if He shows Himself to you to be real. In other words, no amount of information that I could give would change your belief. We are alike in this situation. In fact, I believe most on this site feel the same way.

No, it's not the same.

 

Evolution and the knowledge of evolution is based on what we read, study, observe in this world, etc, and all those things are written in books. So if you read about how they have actually performed experiments that confirm that evolution works and is happening, would it change your mind?

 

On my end, just because I read about the Kalam or Cosmological Argument for God's existence, or Anslem's proofs, or your feelings about God, or reading some Gospel verses, nothing proves God. Those things does not prove God. What is God? God is supposedly a person that exists. A person that exists whose existence is proven by that person's responding to being active in this world.

 

Put it this way. If we would argue about if Santa Claus exists. What would convince you that he exists? Words about how people got presents on Christmas, or that you actually met Santa? But then we would argue about if protons exist. Would we be talking about the experiments performed that proves the existence of protons, or would we demand that protons talked to us?

 

So you see, there's a huge difference.

 

The only reason why you are so scared of me demanding that God proves his own existence is because you know he won't. You know deep down that God doesn't answer prayers of this kind. You know that there is a huge probability that God doesn't exist, and you are defending your feeble faith by making these kinds of spurious arguments.

 

Romans 8:16 (New Living Translation)

 

16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children

The let his spirit prove that he exists. I'm waiting...

 

I guess this has to be the answer for my stance, and I have to admit that cannot be changed.

 

Matthew 13:53-58 (New Living Translation)

 

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

53 When Jesus had finished telling these stories and illustrations, he left that part of the country. 54 He returned to Nazareth, his hometown. When he taught there in the synagogue, everyone was amazed and said, “Where does he get this wisdom and the power to do miracles?” 55 Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph,[a] Simon, and Judas. 56 All his sisters live right here among us. Where did he learn all these things?” 57 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.

 

Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family.” 58 And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.

Right.

 

Unbelief is more powerful than God. It only takes one person who doesn't believe to undo and counteract a billion people who believes.

 

Unbelief is the most powerful force in the universe, more powerful than God, angels, faith, Christians, etc. Isn't that amazing? A mustard seed of faith can move a mountain, but a quark of unbelief can stop God!

 

I guess your God isn't as powerful as you thought...

 

Now my friend, please do not take this the wrong way. I know you are sincere in everything that you have told me about your past, and if you take this the wrong way, you may think that I am just calling you names as to you refusing to believe, and that is not my intent.

 

I want to forget about the past for this second. Let's just let it go for now. I urge you to do this because I really do feel some resentment toward God on your behalf.

I have a God image myself, but it's a new one, a different one from yours. I don't resent my God image, but I resent Christians who think they got it all figured out.

 

I can't resent your God, because your God doesn't exist. I do however feel regret and sadness about lost time and opportunities in the past because of how my Christian faith held me back.

 

I have had this too, and in fact, I told God He what i thought about some of His decisions and told Him, in fact, just because I want to be forgiving like He taught, that I would forgive Him. Does this make biblical scene? Only in the fact that He loves us so much that He will take the blame. He is just that big. After all, He already did up on the cross. After doing this, I felt relieved and moved forward with my growth in Christ.

I prayed like that too, and I didn't feel a thing. I didn't feel any difference. I didn't feel any relief. When I doubted, I prayed, and nothing happened... the doubt was still there.

 

God is big enough to take our blame. He will carry it in His shoulders. Go ahead, blame God, He will let you. Give Him the load, and he will take it.

I can't blame God. There's no God to blame on. When I was Christians I believed just like you do, that I could ask God for taking my burden, but it didn't happen. I and my wife had to carry the burden that life gave us. And our strength, especially my wife's, carried us through.

 

I believe that when we have real issues in our lives, even more so when we believe in Jesus, and God does not show Himself in the way we would like Him to, we get very upset. Even though we try to put it off, it begins to grade us, and it starts effecting every thought we have about our God.

Actually, things got more easy after the de-conversion than it was before. My life most definitely is a lot better now than it was before. It's not always perfect, but it's absolutely better and less issues. So it doesn't make sense what you said. It doesn't fit me.

 

All I am asking is that you give God another chance. Tell Him you forgive Him. He will take the blame. Then just let your eyes be more open and your ears be more alert, and I know that God will show himself to you.

Ok. I will pray now.

 

...

 

Ok, I did.

 

Now what?

 

...

 

God will show himself? How?

 

...

 

I don't feel anything, and I don't see anything. Was I to expect some fireworks or?...

 

My dog just jumped down from the chair, was that the sign from God? She does that now and then. She jumps up on the chair, scratch herself, and then jump down. If that is a sign from God, then God has been giving me his sign for years. Sometimes the dog licks herself too. Is that also a sign from God?

 

... other than that... nothing. Oh, the alarm for feeding the dogs came up on my screen...

 

... sitting...

 

... sigh... how long before God shows himself? Seriously. I don't have the whole day. I'm about 5-10 minutes in to the "God will show himself."

 

I will continue to respond to the rest of your post while I'm waiting for God to show himself.

[oddbird1963]

Most all of you stated now or before that the insight that made you doubt Gods very being was that of a non believer. You all already know the conversations about such. You know the story, "What does a believer have in common with a non believer?" I am not trying to bash anybody, but just saying to all of my "brothers" out there, that if the bases for your unbelief was based on the wisdom of a non believer, what results were you expecting? Between we believe or we do not believe, and that will determine what we accept and what we will not accept. The bible makes it clear faith will be given to anyone that asks. But don't ask a non believer, because the results will never leave you on the believing side. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, but it has to do with the heart, thus we have to make sure our information comes from those who also believe.

 

If christianity is so sound, why are you so afraid of non-believers?

 

Here's a radical idea. Why not evaluate the position of both christians and non-christians and see which positions have the most merit according to the rules of logic, according to their fruitfulness for discovery and according to their apparent correspondence to reality? And guess what! That's what most of us did. Knowing the christian positions much better than you would like to think we did, we realized the christian position was false insofar as the existence of a god and the deity and resurrection of the character Jesus is concerned.

 

You miss the point as well. If we wanted to convince ourselves that what we believe is true despite the evidence, we would do just what you suggest. Stick our heads in the sand. Only read Christian sources. Only ask questions of believers. Only say what we know believers would like us to say. If we did it your way, we would walk around mumbling the Christian equivalent of "There are FIVE lights . There are FIVE lights. No! Really! There are FIIIIVE LIGHTS!!" However, for those who cannot help but recognize reality, there are only four lights. At some point the brainwashing wears off.

 

The approach you are describing is very cult like and very retreatist. "What does a believer have in common with a non-believer?" They're both human. They both feel hot and cold. They both need warmth on a cold December morning. They are both vulnerable to great fear. They both love and hate. Both need food. Both need friends, family and companionship. The notion that a believer is somehow a better kind of human than a non-believer is a self-serving entrenchment tactic of the believers. There is plenty in common. A believer isn't somehow better informed or smarter just because they believe in god or the character from the New Testament known as Jesus.

 

"The heart?" I don't know quite what you mean by "it has to do with the heart." Are you saying that there is part of the human psyche that the individual has no control over and that is helpless to critically evaluate the glut of information that passes through it? Still, you seem to have convinced yourself that the only way to remain a believer is to consistently brainwash yourself.

 

Have you ever thought that many of us did ask believers (even "smart" ones who presumably knew what they were talking about) before deconverting and the answers we got were so circular, self serving and ad hoc that it was rather transparent that the Christian position was baseless?

 

I would like to ask you a question. A lot of Christians employ this "move the goal post" kind of strategy in the face of ex-christian testimonies and say, "You had bad information." Or, "You didn't get all the information you needed."

 

Besides the basics of repentance, faith in Christ and his work on the cross, belief in his resurrection, a life devoted to deep prayer, study of and obedience to the word of God, and active involvement in the work of a local church, what is the one thing that a person needs to "know" to be and remain a true christian? Is it a secret?

 

Is this "good info" just a trick? Is it like a gun inside somebody's jacket pocket that turns out only to be a fist with index finger extended and thumb raised? Is it just an intimidation tactic? Or is there something you can actually express, in say a paragraph, that is the one thing that all of us who struggled to keep their belief missed somehow?

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboris, you know I had left this site for a while before, mainly based on not understanding about the difference between us, and the different results. I still do not have all of the answers and I will not pretend that I do, but God has made Himself real to me more times than I could ever count. I do walk with Him, I do talk with him, I do work with him, and even now as I am typing these very words, my friend, He is right beside me.

Wow.

 

So you actually do see God with your physical eyes, and he speaks to you in an audible voice that creates sound waves that hits your eardrums? You actually physically can touch God?

 

I guess you're the lucky one. You don't know how many times I prayed to God to show himself that way. He never did.

 

If God does exist, he acting to me as he doesn't. For all sakes and purposes, God doesn't exist in his interaction with me. He doesn't and has never proven himself in any way. I wanted too, so badly, but I never had a physical experience like that.

 

But on the other hand, the reason why I can't believe just because you see God for real, is that there is a chance that you have a mental disorder and hallucinate things. So I can't just start believing only because you see God. I have to have my own experience of God, right? I should believe because of my own experience, not because of what you believe or experience. Isn't it so? Otherwise, would you convert to Islam if a Muslim meets eye-to-eye with Mohammad? You wouldn't, right? Because you would assume they were wrong. So if you want to convert me, you have to ask your physical God to do the same to me. I want to see him for real.

 

Believe me, my life is not perfect and without troubles, but He is and has been with me every step of the way. Even when I thought He was gone.

How could you think he was gone? Now you're making less sense...

 

You physically can see, touch, and talk to God, like a real person, and he leaves you? Or is it that you doubt that you really saw him? Do you mean to say that you have some lucid moments where you realize it was just a hallucination?

 

One more comment I saw on normal bases was worshiping God out of fear and hell. I tried that once as a kid, but that never worked, and I believe one can never have a loving relationship with a God who they think is out to get them, and to send them to hell on a silly mistake level. If Satan had his way, we would all be in hell. If god wanted any of you to be in hell, why on earth are you here?

 

We Christians (at least i hope) worship God out of his love for us, not being fearful of hell.

 

 

Romans 8:38-39 (New Living Translation)

 

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

One of the biggest fears I had as a Christian was that I had done something that had removed God's salvation from my life and that I would end up in Hell. I prayed, and I never could get rid of the feeling that something was wrong.

 

When I lost my faith, that feeling disappeared. I'm not afraid anymore. I have faced death, and it doesn't scare me. De-conversion made me happier.

 

I could respond all day and night to all of the responses, but I think the far majority of them rest with the above statements. I have no urge to try to convince any of you to believe in creation. My real intent was to see if there was truth in your responses. In that there was some truth for sure, but here is the thing.

It's a typical Christian bait-and-switch. You started to argue against evolution, but when you realized it was over your head, you start to talk about emotions and belief in God.

 

Here's the problem, even if God exists, evolution is still true. There are many Christians who know evolution is true and yet maintain a belief in Jesus. Evolution could be the method with which God created humans and all life. Who are you do dictate God's actions? Who are you to judge God? Who are you to make the decision for how God created the world? Are you saying that God can't use evolution only because it doesn't fit what you want to believe?

 

You need to start thinking about not reading the Bible with the colored glasses your pastor gave you. You need to start reading the Bible a bit more metaphorical than literal.

 

Most all of you stated now or before that the insight that made you doubt Gods very being was that of a non believer. You all already know the conversations about such. You know the story, "What does a believer have in common with a non believer?" I am not trying to bash anybody, but just saying to all of my "brothers" out there, that if the bases for your unbelief was based on the wisdom of a non believer, what results were you expecting? Between we believe or we do not believe, and that will determine what we accept and what we will not accept. The bible makes it clear faith will be given to anyone that asks. But don't ask a non believer, because the results will never leave you on the believing side. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, but it has to do with the heart, thus we have to make sure our information comes from those who also believe.

You mean, we should believe only because that you believe? We should drop all our belief and knowledge and just trust you, and then believe your belief.

 

So how would that work?

 

I convert to your belief. Then tomorrow, or next month, you discover some new dogma in the Bible you think is cool. You have to tell us. We have to change our belief to trust your interpretation. Then you discover something else, and we must follow. We must follow your belief all the way to our grave.

 

So basically, we should not have our own belief, but instead we should just copy your belief. And how is that good?

 

I know I may of offended many here today. I still care about you all and will not stop praying for you. I know that i am on a Ex-Christian site, and if my being here is something that the moderators of this site do not want, I will leave. I am not here to convince, but just to defend.

I'm one of the moderators... have you seen me kick you out? Have I even threatened with it yet? Nope. Right now I find you to be more of an entertainment than annoyance.

 

The main reason I came on this site to begin with, believe or not, was trying to understand how a site such as this could ever be. To be honest, even today I only partly understand. I cannot help but to think much of it has to do with bad info or feeling abandoned or hurt by God.

Yeah. Abandoned by God. That's actually how it feels. God was never there. It was just emotions. But the feeling is like God left. In reality, all of it plays out like God never existed, so why would you blame me? Why are you putting the guilt on me for trying and yet God is failing me? If God exists and God doesn't want me to know he exists, the problem is with you who demands that I act differently than God wants me to. Right? If God wants me to feel that God doesn't exist, then I will accordingly feel that God doesn't exist. But you want me to feel different that God want's me to feel. So in the end, you're the one who is in disobedience to God, not me. I would be exactly where God wants me to be, and you're the one who is trying to change it against God's will.

 

If allowed to stay, I will tackle the tough questions of the bible next. (topic below this one) I am sure that we will not agree with each other here either, but I think if we are ready, we can both learn some new things about the bible, no matter what our belief.

Could you please start a new thread about it? This thread will grow too much if we keep it here.

[oddbird1963]

Yeah. Abandoned by God. That's actually how it feels. God was never there. It was just emotions. But the feeling is like God left. In reality, all of it plays out like God never existed, so why would you blame me?

 

Aww, man! Now I'm starting to feel sad. Abandoned by god. Then, realizing god never existed in the first place. Then realizing it's all on me. The fact that I was 14 when I dove in to Christianity is irrelevant. There is nobody to hang this on but me. I wish I had asked the right questions, instead of wanting to be part of the community of "good" people. I wish I had been smarter at that age. I wish that along the way I had been more critical. Or, I wish I had never awakened to the truth so I could rest snug withing the certitude of my god-belief.

 

But, the weight of all those wasted years is on me, whether I want it or not.

 

I think I'm going to go get a diet coke now. I never took up drinking alcohol, or I would find a bottle of something.

[★ Citsonga ★]

One more comment I saw on normal bases was worshiping God out of fear and hell. I tried that once as a kid, but that never worked, and I believe one can never have a loving relationship with a God who they think is out to get them, and to send them to hell on a silly mistake level. If Satan had his way, we would all be in hell. If god wanted any of you to be in hell, why on earth are you here?

 

We Christians (at least i hope) worship God out of his love for us, not being fearful of hell.

 

I was just like you in this regard as a christian. I worshiped out of an overwhelming sense of god's love, not a fear of hell. As such, your implication here that we ex-christians had the wrong worship mindset is wrong, at least for some of us.

 

Most all of you stated now or before that the insight that made you doubt Gods very being was that of a non believer. You all already know the conversations about such. You know the story, "What does a believer have in common with a non believer?" I am not trying to bash anybody, but just saying to all of my "brothers" out there, that if the bases for your unbelief was based on the wisdom of a non believer, what results were you expecting? Between we believe or we do not believe, and that will determine what we accept and what we will not accept. The bible makes it clear faith will be given to anyone that asks. But don't ask a non believer, because the results will never leave you on the believing side. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, but it has to do with the heart, thus we have to make sure our information comes from those who also believe.

 

I, for one, did not fit this category at all. My doubting and loss of faith came from studying the bible as a believer, not from outside influences. I had no nonbelievers as acquaintances whom I could confide in, so I was not influenced by nonbelievers in my deconversion.

 

But does that mean that it's bad when some do confide in nonbelievers and consider their perspective? If one utterly refuses to even consider the other side, then how can one know that his/her side is accurate? If you only listen to one side, you're sure to be slanted that direction, just as I was for most of my life. Had it not been for the internal problems in the bible, I'd still be a believer in the christian myth, because I did not listen to opposing arguments (other than the strawman versions presented by christian apologists).

 

When you say, "But don't ask a non believer, because the results will never leave you on the believing side," do you not realize that it's also true that if you ask a believer, the arguments will always be slanted against the unbelieving side? When you refuse to consider anything that opposes what you were indoctrinated with all your life, you're basically gambling that what you were indoctrinated with is truth. But what if it's not?

 

Think about this: If Christianity was true, but you were indoctrinated in Islam, wouldn't it be a sad thing for you to never consider any information from non-Muslims? After all, information from the non-Muslim perspective wouldn't present you with the pro-Muslim side, so you'd ignore it and you'd still be a Muslim. Arguing that Muslims shouldn't listen to non-Muslims is just as ridiculous as arguing that Christians shouldn't listen to non-Christians, because the ultimate desire should be truth, not just building up the preconceived notions we were indoctrinated with.

 

As such, I find it quite sad that I did refuse to listen to non-christians when I was a christian. Sure, I read books about other faiths and skepticism, but they were always christian apologetics books, so I wasn't really getting the opposing arguments, I was getting strawman versions.

 

I am not here to convince, but just to defend.

 

You don't have a goal of convincing us? What about, "Go and make disciples"?

 

The main reason I came on this site to begin with, believe or not, was trying to understand how a site such as this could ever be. To be honest, even today I only partly understand. I cannot help but to think much of it has to do with bad info or feeling abandoned or hurt by God.

 

Not with me, that's for sure. I didn't feel abandoned or hurt by god, and I wasn't influenced by information from non-christian sources. I simply studied the bible, and that was enough to eventually open my eyes. I say "eventually" because the indoctrination ran so deep that it took me a loooooooooooooooooooooong time to see through it, but eventually I did.

 

If allowed to stay

 

I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to stay. As long as you aren't derogatory and as long as you stay away from the Testimonies and ExChristian Living forums (proselytizing is forbidden there), I'm sure you're quite welcome to be here. Just know that when you spout nonsense, you'll be called on it.

 

I will tackle the tough questions of the bible next. (topic below this one) I am sure that we will not agree with each other here either, but I think if we are ready, we can both learn some new things about the bible, no matter what our belief.

 

Good luck. I'm sure we can all learn something, but if you stick around and are honest in your dealings here, I think you'll be quite surprised which side of the debate has the most to learn.

 

By the way, speaking of bible questions, I'm still waiting for an answer as to why your god would punish serpents for something satan supposedly did.

 

I consider you all my friends, no matter what way you believe, and whether I am still accepted on this site or not, that truth will remain.

 

God bless

 

That's a good attitude to have. I certainly don't consider you an enemy either.

 

Reason bless…..

[Ouroboros]

Aww, man! Now I'm starting to feel sad. Abandoned by god. Then, realizing god never existed in the first place. Then realizing it's all on me. The fact that I was 14 when I dove in to Christianity is irrelevant. There is nobody to hang this on but me. I wish I had asked the right questions, instead of wanting to be part of the community of "good" people. I wish I had been smarter at that age. I wish that along the way I had been more critical. Or, I wish I had never awakened to the truth so I could rest snug withing the certitude of my god-belief.

Exactly. That's the feeling I have. I wish it could have been different, but I know it's just a wish.

[Antlerman]

I know I may of offended many here today. I still care about you all and will not stop praying for you. I know that i am on a Ex-Christian site, and if my being here is something that the moderators of this site do not want, I will leave. I am not here to convince, but just to defend.

And I'm one of the mods here, and I see no reason to eject someone who makes effort at dialog, even if your beliefs run contrary to others. You should take note of this too, that were this a Christian site, none of us would be allowed to post anything, and all of us would be banned in a matter of seconds. We believe in the free exchange of ideas. We take the higher road here. We're searching for truth, not believing we have the answer and everyone is wrong.

 

The main reason I came on this site to begin with, believe or not, was trying to understand how a site such as this could ever be. To be honest, even today I only partly understand. I cannot help but to think much of it has to do with bad info or feeling abandoned or hurt by God.

Personally, I think that's something you'd like to tell yourself to process how or why someone would not see things the same as you. Please understand, it's about growth for each and every one of us. That's why I like this site so much. Each person needed to shed it off themselves for liberty of mind and spirit. It's not about being freed from responsibility, but being freed to grow more so. That's the part I think you can't fathom - yet.

 

PS I will be checking the sites given (I already checked most of them, and some of those answers could be found in the next discussion) and later responding to the post that do not directly relate to what has already just been discussed or will/would be talked about on the next topic.

You said that you feel that what you last posted here pretty much addressed everyone's thoughts. I can say, everyone's maybe, but certainly not mine.

 

You see, none of that applies to me. I don't reject God. I grew God up, so to speak. And I'd like to talk with you about the nature of your beliefs to you (as opposed to discussions in the specifics of content), the nature of faith for you, and the end hoped for realization in your life. I've presented very pointed and specific focuses for you. I'm hoping you're willing to take that on, because to me, arguing over how you believe is seen by me as nothing but a distraction. Everyone believes something, but it's what we grow towards that is of infinite more value to understanding.

 

Let's see if you'll come there with me. But I can promise you, the result might be a loosening of your stranglehold on your ideas of truth in favor of something much larger than them, much more inclusive, much more free and embracing. Is your faith up to this, or do you wish to remain in shadows assuring yourself the world is square?

[the stranger]

Thank you all for the sound questions, history, and acceptance. I want to do something that is becoming rare to me as of late, I want to reply to all of the replies a little later tonight. I amazingly had a touch of extra time today and wanted to share just a little of the research that i have found about the origins of science and the bible. Now of course we will not really believe every thing that we read, but I really found these sites to be useful and interesting to me. I will post some of the main parts, and for the rest you can click on the link.

 

This next segment is pasting of a fraction of the site page.

 

====================================================================================================================

 

This first part is about science being told in the bible before man could ever comprehend it.

 

1. The universe had a beginning (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12). Starting with the studies of Albert Einstein in the early 1900s and continuing today, science has confirmed the biblical view that the universe had a beginning. When the Bible was written most people believed the universe was eternal. Science has proven them wrong, but the Bible correct.

 

2. The universe is expanding (Job 9:8; Isaiah 42:5; Jeremiah 51:15; Zechariah 12:1). Repeatedly God declares that He stretches out the heavens. During the early 20th century, most scientists (including Einstein) believed the universe was static. Others believed it should have collapsed due to gravity. Then in 1929, astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that distant galaxies were receding from the earth, and the further away they were, the faster they were moving. This discovery revolutionized the field of astronomy. Einstein admitted his mistake, and today most astronomers agree with what the Creator told us millennia ago – the universe is expanding!

 

3. The first three verses of Genesis accurately express all known aspects of the creation (Genesis 1:1-3). Science expresses the universe in terms of: time, space, matter, and energy. In Genesis chapter one we read: “In the beginning (time) God created the heavens (space) and the earth (matter)…Then God said, “Let there be light (energy).” No other creation account agrees with the observable evidence.

 

4. The Earth Hangs in Space. "He hangs the earth upon nothing". Job 26:7 stated 1500BC. Until modern times, 'experts' believed ideas such as the earth sat on four elephants, who stood on a giant turtle, who swam in the ocean. Man could not imagine how the earth could hang in space on nothing. Yet this is what happens due to the gravitational attraction between the earth and the sun, giving the appearance that the earth hangs on nothing.

 

5. Spherical Earth. "It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth" Isaiah 40:22. "... when He set a compass upon the face of the depth" Proverbs 8:27. Circle = Compass in Hebrew is "Khoog" = to describe a circle, or circuit, meaning the horizon which is circular. In 712 BC, when Isaiah wrote, people thought that the earth was flat, and that you could sail over the edge of it and fall of. Columbus and Magellan proved that the earth was circular by sailing around it in a circle from East to West and then returning to the point of departure.

 

You may be surprised to learn that the Bible revealed that the earth is round. Job 26:10, Prov 8:27, Isaiah 40:22, Amos 9:6. Today, we chuckle at the people of the fifteenth century who feared sailing because they thought they would fall over the edge of the flat earth. Yet the Bible revealed the truth in 1000 B.C. - 2500 years before man discovered it for himself! The Encyclopedia Americana said: "The earliest known image that men had of the earth was that it was a flat, rigid platform at the center of the universe..." The concept of a spherical earth was NOT widely accepted until the Renaissance. Some early navigators even feared that they might sail off the edge of the flat earth.

 

6. Earth at any time is part day-time and part night. Job 38:13-14 conveys the idea of the earth rotating on its axis: "the earth...is turned as clay to the seal." When the moment of Christ's second coming to earth is discussed in Luke 17:31-36, Christ's return interrupts people sleeping at night on one part of the earth, and interrupts others in the daytime grinding at the mill or working in the field. How did Jesus Christ know that the earth at any point of time is half dark and half light? Because He is the all-knowing God. ".......in that day when the Son of Man is revealed. v30. In that day ....... he that is in the field ... v31. In that night there shall be two in one bed, one shall be taken, the other left v.34. Two women shall be grinding together, one shall be taken, and the other left v.35. Two men shall be in the field; one shall be taken, and the other left" v.36.

 

7. The sun goes in a circuit (Psalm 19:6). Some scientists scoffed at this verse thinking that it taught geocentricity – the theory that the sun revolves around the earth. They insisted the sun was stationary. However, we now know that the sun is traveling through space at approximately 600,000 miles per hour. It is literally moving through space in a huge circuit – just as the Bible stated 3,000 years ago!

 

8. Very Great Number of Stars. "As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me”. Jeremiah 33:22 in 590 BC. "He (God) telleth the number of stars; he calleth them all by their names". Psalm 147:4. "Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies". Genesis 22:17. Ptolemy in 150 AD dogmatically said that 1056 stars existed. Even today, scientists admit that they do not know how many stars there are. Only about 3,000 can be seen with the naked eye. I have seen estimates of 10x21 stars—which is a lot of stars. (The number of grains of sand on the earth’s seashores is estimated to be 10x25. As scientists discover more stars, wouldn’t it be interesting to discover that these two numbers match?) The Bible also says that each star is unique.

 

9. The Height & Movement of Stars. "Behold the height of the stars, how high they are". Job 22:12. Man did not realize how high and how far the stars are until Bessel in 1838 measured the distances of stars using the parallax method. Alpha Centauri, earth's nearest star is 4 x 10 to the power of 13 kms (40,000 billion kms) away. It would take you 10 million years to get there if you could travel there in your motor car at 100 km per hour. Judges 5:20 mentions "the stars in their courses." While it was once believed that the stars were fixed, today we know that they too move in a predictable way.

 

10. Pleiades Constellation is a Bound cluster, not breaking up. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences (cluster) of Pleiades?" Job 38:31. In 1520 BC, God said that the Pleiades star cluster is bound together in a highly stable group.

 

Notice the amazing astronomical contrast with the Pleiades. The seven stars of the Pleiades are in reality a grouping of 250 suns. Photographs now reveal that 250 blazing suns in this group are all traveling together in one common direction. Concerning this cluster, Isabel Lewis of the United States Naval Observatory tells us: "Astronomers have identified 250 stars as actual members of this group, all sharing in a common motion and drifting through space in the same direction. Elsewhere Lewis speaks of them as "journeying onward together through the immensity of space".

 

11. Orion's Bands are loosed. "Canst thou loose the bands of Orion?" Job 38:31. The constellation of Orion is a star system that is steadily expanding outwards. The Gravitational 'bands' holding the constellation together have indeed been loosed, just as God told Job. Orion is 350 light years across and 1600 light years from earth. This expansion is not observable to the naked eye.

 

INCREDIBLE! God's laws of cosmology are loosing or dissolving the constellation Orion. Sometime in the far distant future, Orion will be no more. Conversely, wonder of wonders — every last one of the 250 blazing suns in the Pleiades are ordained of God to orbit together in their symmetrical beauty throughout eternity.

 

12. Arturus. "Canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?" Job 38:32. Garrett P. Serviss wrote: "Arcturus, one of the greatest suns in the universe, is a runaway whose speed of flight is 257 miles per second. Arcturus, we have every reason to believe, possesses thousands of times the mass of our sun. Think of it! Our sun is traveling only 12 ½ miles a second, but Arcturus is traveling 257 miles a second. Think then of the prodigious momentum this motion implies".

 

13. Black holes and dark matter anticipated (Matthew 25:30; Jude 1:13; Isaiah 50:3). Cosmologists now speculate that over 98% of the known universe is comprised of dark matter, with dark energy and black holes. A black hole’s gravitational field is so strong that nothing, not even light, escapes. Beyond the expanding universe there is no measured radiation and therefore only outer darkness exists. These theories paint a seemingly accurate description of what the Bible calls 'outer darkness' or 'the blackness of darkness forever'.

 

14. Laws of Physics control matter, energy and motion. God asked Job: "Knowest thou the ordinances (laws) of heaven?" (Job 38:33). Ordinances are physical laws that govern the movement of heavenly bodies, stars, planets, comets, meteors etc.

 

CONCLUSION: Other verses could be cited such as:

 

* Ezekiel 5:5, 38:12 claims that Jerusalem is the center of the earth. ICR commissioned a computer analysis of the earth’s land-masses and discovered that the geographic center is in Palestine, near the holy city

 

==================================================================================================================

 

Sorry to copy so much of it. This site actually has a total of 90 items on the list. Very interesting. I always knew this sort of thing to be true but never dreamed the extent of this truth. For the entire page, please visit My link I just wanted to past enough to really get some neat stuff out there.

 

 

 

This next one, though I will not post near as much, deals with Christians and early science.

 

===================================================================================================================

 

Most of the early scientists were Christians (Copernicus, Galileo, Pascal, Isaac Newton, Carl Linnaeus, Johannes Keppler, Robert Boyle, Louis Pasteur, Jean Henri Fabre, Michael Faraday, John Ambrose Fleming, etc.). The faith of these great scientists was not a separate part of their thinking; indeed, it was integral to their thinking as they operated within a Christian framework. (See the book How You Think the Way You Do by historian Glenn S. Sunshine.)

 

An interesting fact is that the vast majority of all scientific development has come out of western civilization, which has Christianity as its basis. Christianity views God as rational and trustworthy, which implies that His creation is rational and orderly and thus can be examined. Nature in the Christian view (as compared to non-Christian worldviews) was no longer an object of fear and worship.

 

The idea of laws of nature came from Christianity. And the concepts of subduing nature and being stewards of nature are right from the first book of the Bible—Genesis.

 

It can be said that Christianity has produced more literate and educated people than any other movement in the history of mankind. For example, in America all but 3 of the first 126 colleges established in the United States were built in order to propagate the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

The Bible was not written as a science textbook. But, when the Bible does reveal truths related to science, the Bible can be trusted. Indeed, the Bible demonstrates scientific knowledge and concepts far before mankind had developed the technological base for such knowledge.

 

===================================================================================================================

 

 

My link

 

This is actually also an old earth site, interesting enough. In saying that, it does have some interesting information on it.

 

 

 

I have just been reading about testing and such. Numbers and letters and all of that stuff that i do not understand. It just is really interesting to me how two people can see the results of the same test and draw different conclusions. I does not surprise however. Rarely can two people agree on a bible doctrine. All I am saying is that different conclusions are possible, and happen all the time. I have read that up to 40% of scientist believe in creation to the extent that the earth was somehow created by a God or creator but that only a fraction of those believe in a young earth. Those percentages are somewhere between 1% to 20% depending on the site. The statistics are all over the board on these issues.

 

I guess my only real point is it is hard to get a real estimate. I will get to all of your responses shortly.

 

One last note before hand, Antlerhead, you said you would probably get kicked off a Christian website in a heart beat. Out of the three Christian websites that I have been on, I have been threatened to watch my post (and you know how respectful I try to be) or be possibly banned on two of those sites. I can not refute your statement. There was a site however that was called "prophecytalk.com" (now OOB) that use to allow all views just as you do. Though we disagree on things, I respect your openess and your willing to talk about anything as long as it is done respectfully. I really do feel safer now on this site than I did two of the previos Christion sites. I do not know if I would relate that to those sites being Christian though, and I should note three out of thousands is hardly a scientific fact. But either way. on some sites you would be correct in your statement.

 

Thanks again and I will respond soon. (I really want to get into your questions, Antlerhead)

 

God bless

[Dagan]

I'm sorry, but taking poetic turns of phrase in the bible, which have been translated into english from a mostly dead language, is not proof of anything scientific. So the bible gets a few things correct. Whoop de doo. Probably more from being influenced by Babylonian astronomers, who were around while the Jews were in exile (which is also where they picked up their dualistic heaven and hell, dark versus light, Ormazd versus Ahriman... I mean God versus Satan) than it is from the divine influence of a god telling some dude writing worship songs to sneak in a few science tidbits in there for the hell of it.

 

But, when the Bible does reveal truths related to science, the Bible can be trusted. Indeed, the Bible demonstrates scientific knowledge and concepts far before mankind had developed the technological base for such knowledge.

 

Only if you are looking for them and torture the logic and the meanings of the verses to see what you want to see.

[Antlerman]

One last note before hand, Antlerhead, you said you would probably get kicked off a Christian website in a heart beat. Out of the three Christian websites that I have been on, I have been threatened to watch my post (and you know how respectful I try to be) or be possibly banned on two of those sites. I can not refute your statement.

See?! Even you as a Christian, and a very respectful one I'll add, aren't allowed to think for yourself there! Have you ever wondered how they can possible grow?

 

Though we disagree on things, I respect your openess and your willing to talk about anything as long as it is done respectfully. I really do feel safer now on this site than I did two of the previos Christion sites.

Wow! That says a lot my friend, and look, you're even in the Lion's Den!

 

I find communicating with people behind their views is important for mutual benefit. How can anyone hear anything when people are shouting and insulting each other? I believe in an existential truth we all share, and that is where Truth itself is served. It's all about get through and around our languages to the soul of the heart. I have so much I could simply wish to just plug a wire into my brain and do a data dump to you, but alas... we must use words and navigate all the seas of our minds, floating about in culture, language, economies, politics, beliefs, traditions, personality, emotions, etc, etc. Not an easy task, but strangely we manage to stay afloat and move about despite it! What magnificent creatures we are!! And we have no idea just how glorious it all is.

 

Thanks again and I will respond soon. (I really want to get into your questions, Antlerhead)

To help you remember my actual user name... it was 1987, World Series, friends' house, watching our Minnesota Twins win their first World Series, many, many rum and cokes. Celebrations and mad silliness ensued. Our rum soaked minds creating silly stories late into the night. Out of the pit of my subconscious emerged this new superhero to rescue the lost, the multi-horned wonder, Antlerman - a Superman like character. Many imaginary exploits were told of his great, and frightening bravery, and so forth until we passed out at three in the morning.

 

So when I came to this site many years ago, my first forum I ever joined, it asked for a username. I searched about in my creative mind to think of one, when suddenly from deep in the past, Antlerman once again emerged!

 

And that's the story of Antlerman.

[Ouroboros]

"Antlerman to the rescue!"

 

"Is it an elk?"

 

"Is it a tractor?"

 

"NO, it's Antlerman in the woods!"

 

[Antlerman]

"Antlerman to the rescue!"

 

"Is it an elk?"

 

"Is it a tractor?"

 

"NO, it's Antlerman in the woods!"

 

Wow, were you there that night? That almost sounds like what we were saying, as he skewered his many foes.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not going to argue about the science in the Bible because I believe that ancient people did know more about some facts than we would think. And I also believe that it's easy to reinterpret ancient texts to fit into what we know today, and it is possible that the original authors didn't have our interpretation at mind at all.

 

But instead, I would like to understand the non-science in the Bible. When God created the light, and it was day and night the first week. How was that possible since our Earth is a sphere and there is night and day all the time somewhere on the planet. Right now, it's dusk here where I live, but I know that somewhere else there it's morning. And furthermore, somewhere right now, in this moment, there is midday and somewhere else there is midnight.

 

Do you have an explanation to this "day/night" thing in Genesis from this perspective? Was the "day/night" concept not at all our planets motion in relationship with the sun, or was God located in a certain timezone when he created the Universe? Is perhaps the Universe created based on Greenwich time?