Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, sorry to do this to you, but for the life of me I cannot find the questions in which you are referring to. If you can direct me to a page or copy them for me it would be much appreciated, my friend.

Yeah, make me do the work. I'll hunt them down later and post all 10 of them in a row.

[the stranger]

Yeah, make me do the work. I'll hunt them down later and post all 10 of them in a row.

 

LOL Yes, it is much much easier for me this way. I have been trying to practice this routine for my job (just kidding) but it has not been working out very good for me yet.

 

 

So God was turned on and turned off depending on if it was night or day?

 

God must be able to produce darkness if he was also the night, unless you now want to argue that God is absent during night.

 

No, Ouroboros, God created the first light before He created the sun and the moon. This first light gave the signs of being day or night.

 

God is not also the night. God is light. Dark exist as an absence of God, or light. Ig God was not here, there would be no light.

 

It still makes the sun and the moon nothing but symbols for what night and day is. The true night and day comes from God turning on and off light a lightbulb, and the sun and moon are just there to pretend to be the night and day lights. That makes them symbols, not the sources.

 

Joshua 10:13 (Amplified Bible)

 

13And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance upon their enemies. Is not this written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of the heavens and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

 

Habakkuk 3:11 (Amplified Bible)

 

11The sun and moon stood back [as before Joshua] in their habitation at the light of Your arrows as they sped, at the flash of Your glittering spear.

 

 

Now you can take this verse however it is you want to, but let us pretend for my sake it is a real event in history. Did time stop here, or just the sun and moon? Was this day a 24 hour day or was it a 36 or more hour day?

 

Point being it is God who controls the days. Whether the sun stops, or darkness last for three days (as it did for the egyptians before the Israelites were released) time goes on. The sun is there as a general guide for our sake as to when a day starts and ends. Just because rotation stops does not mean that time stops.

 

The light that we see is ofcourse the sun, and at night, the reflection of. However, the sun and moon are there to govern the day and the night, and are not the creator of day and night. If God chose, the day and night could continue without the sun or moon through a different source. We both already know that in this (fairy tale) of a book we are reading the new earth has no sun, but the Son for it's light.

 

And when God finally created the sun and the moon, was the night and day still controlled by God's light switch or was the sun and moon now the representatives of the night and day?

 

Representatives? Yes. But still controlled by God, and with or without, He will still would be done, and other light sources certainly could come into play.

 

If they were, then we're still back to the problem of which timezone on the spherical planet Earth was that night and day measured from? Or did God just create the sun and moon and had them not shine at all, and only the God-light-bulb was controlling the day and night? If so, the why do you believe that a God-light-on-off sequence must have been 24 hours? It could have been 240 million years each time instead. You wouldn't know, would you?

 

This beginning of the bible was talking about what? The creation of our home, mans home, and man, and the creation of the universe. The center peace is focused on us. The story is meant to be understood by us. We were created in the garden. Would it have been easier for God to say, in the first twenty four hour period of time I created? The problem is they did not have a word for hour as we know it. Infact, only in Daniel do we find such a word, but it canot be meant quite as it sounds, even in Daniel 4:19.

 

For one hour - It is not possible to designate the exact time denoted by the word "hour" - שׁעה shâ‛âh. According to Gesenius ("Lex."), it means moment of time; properly, a look, a glance, a wink of the eye - German, "augenblick." In Arabic the word means both a moment and an hour. In Daniel 3:6, Daniel 3:15, it evidently means immediately. Here it would seem to mean a short time. That is, Daniel was fixed in thought, and maintained a profound silence until the king addressed him. We are not to suppose that this continued during the space of time which we call an hour, but he was silent until Nebuchadnezzar addressed him. He would not seem to be willing even to speak of so fearful calamities as he saw were coming upon the king. My link

 

 

If it were not made clear that every day of creation had "And the evening and the morning" in it, than maybe it could be a very large frame of time. God tells us things in a way that we can understand things (most of the time) and so there was a reason God made it very clear that the creation happened in six 24 hour days. Would God had any other reason to tell us the days of creation in the terms of which He did if in fact, it was billions of years instead? Would it make God any less of a supreme being? Would it change Gods status?

 

We should also take note that God uses the terms (words) "And the evening and the morning" before and after the creation of the sun and moon. Why is this important? We know that God uses the sun to govern the day, and generally speaking that day is a 24 hour period. If the same words are used to describe the time frame before the sun was created, it can only be assumed the same time frame was at stake. We should also note that the 24 hour time frame is confirmed later on.

 

Exodus 20:11 (King James Version)

 

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

Hebrews 4:4 (King James Version)

 

4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

[the stranger]

So then we're back to the original question, which timezone did the Bible use when God declared "Now it is night on planet Earth," and then later "Now it is morning on planet Earth."

 

Now my friend, you are going to have to show me scripture for these quotes. LOL I can find no translation or scripture that relates it directly to the whole planet. Now one could imply it that way, and that is true, however, is stated, I see no reason God could not and was not directing it first off, so as to something we could understand, and secondly, to the orgin of the beginning of the story, the garden of Eden.

 

You trust a 2,000 year old book over 2,000,000 books today.

 

Can you answer me this? What book has ever even came anywhere close to the popularity and sells of the bible? Why do you believe this is? Do you think maybe somehow a (the) Creator is involved? Like it or not, the bible has stood the test of time, and only becomes more popular as time goes on.

 

If the bible was full of lies, do you believe it would have the credibility that it presently has?

 

Scientists make mistakes, no doubt about it, but when they discover their mistakes, they correct them. When Christians discover mistakes in the Bible, they invent explanations to why the mistakes still must be true. Big difference.

 

And scientist have been correcting their mistakes since the get go. The bible believers never had to. What makes you think science has it right today? What if science proofs everything in the bible as truth in the future? Would you still believe science?

 

You're trusting people from 2,000 years ago who didn't even live during the time they're writing about.

 

Another case in point. I cannot even remember what I did yesterday. Do you think they just decided to tell stories one day, and all of the authors through out the thousands of years just happened to tell the same stories, though no one knew about the other on many of the accurences?

 

I trust people that live and breathe today who have written books about how the experimented and reasoned their way to the truth.

 

But unfortuntly this truth you speak of changes constantly. I think I will stick to the ever lasting truth.

 

So you're saying that God can create the world in any way he wants, except through evolution or old universe? You're the one limiting God! Don't you see it?

 

If it was not laid out in Genesis the way that it is, and reconfirmed twice in the bible as being 24 hour days, then maybe I could see your point a little more, my friend.

 

You are basically saying that God can do anything he wants, except what science has discovered to be true. You are defining God's creation based on what you WANT to believe, not what FITS reality. Think about it.

 

What science has discovered to be true is dependent on ones sources. And I think we both are going on what we want to believe. You are right about that one.

 

If there is a God, why is it that God could not have used evolution or Big Bang? Explain why. I'm really interested. Why is it that you are the one who decides how God did it?

 

Again, it is just what I clearly understand the bible to be saying, and confirmed two other times.

 

Now tell, me where would my interpretation above be wrong?

 

My friend, many Christians as we both know do believe just the way you laid it out. Infact, unlike what many may do, I will not even tell you that you are wrong. I can only speak for myself. I just cannot understan the bible in that way if I read it literally. As I stated, to me it means nothing in light of having or not having a relationship with Jesus Christ. But for me personally, this is just how I read and understand the bible. However, of course, it has nothing to do with ones salvation.

 

 

 

 

 

Now in regards to your second post, I really do appreciate some of the knowledge that you have shared. I know that you have been studying this sort of thing probably more years than I have been a christian. I am not trying to take away or insult any of the knowledge that you have gathered over the years. I have probably studied in days of which you have studied in years. And i will add that you brought up some interesting things. When all said and done, however, as already stated, I do not think either one of us is ever going to be convinced to believe what we already believe on this issue. Once again, however, thank you very much for your insight and web sites. Some of them I really did find quite interesting.

 

God bless and talk with ya soon.

[the stranger]

Genesis 2:

 

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 

If God had to bring every animal to him, he would be busy for more than a few days still. According to tradition, Adam was created on Saturday and ate the forbidden fruit on Wednesday next week. Still not enough days, and it's not explained by God bringing the animals to Adam.

 

Relate these passages which are describing the beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, including cattle, with the following:

 

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

 

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

 

====================================================================================

 

Animals God had Adam name (or kinds of (groups of))

 

beast (including cattle) and fowl of the air (such as birds)

 

Animals that Adam is not said to name

 

Any animal that resides in the water

Any creeping thing

 

 

If named in kinds (or groups) this would of took much less time. God also brought all the created animals to Adam to name. We should also note that many animals we see today (or better put, the variations of the animals we see today) at that time would not have existed. Like domestic animals, and most likely the different types of the same group of animal after spreading through the entire earth.

 

Bottom line, it would not have been is hard as it may appear.

 

 

Another question is, did God change animals teeth after the fall? My understanding is that all animals ate fruit, vegetables, leaves, etc before the fall, but some became carnivores after the fall. Is that so? If that's the case, how come predators have canine teeth that is fitted for eating meat? Did they get this after the fall from God?

 

That is a fair question for sure. I am sure that there may be more than one answer, but I look at it this way. From the very get go God knew that sin would soon be on the earth and He also there for knew all of the consequences of such. The bible seems to indicate a fairly short time span from creation to the disobedience. I think it may be quite possible that (a) they were created as such knowing that it would not be long as to when they would have to use their teeth. ((B)

 

( b ) Just like the snake, humans, and the earth was cursed, and all of the above changed, likewise so did these animals.

 

Have a good night or day, whatever it is right now for you, Ouroboros, and I will talk with ya soon. I got to get up for work myself in about three hours. I do not know for sure if I will be posting tomorrow night yet or not. It depends if i can stay awake or not.

 

Antlerman, if you have the questions up when I get back to the site, I promise you my friend, you will be next. Sorry to keep you waiting for soo long.

[Ouroboros]

*Sigh*

 

You googled a website that supported your belief instead of thinking about why you already believe what you believe.

 

You started with the conclusion: "Earth must be young," and then found a website to support it.

 

Here's my response to your "Young Earth" evidence:

 

"1. Receding Moon 750 m.y.a. max"

 

Receding Moon argument refuted: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moonrec.html

 

"2. Oil Pressure 5,000 - 10,000 years" and the rest:

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html

And

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea2.html

And

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-c14.html

And

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html

 

You see, I can quote mine support too.

 

The question is, which website uses math, science, facts, observations, and complete references when they argue?

 

 

... websites with so called evidence for young earth...

A load of poppycock and bullshit.

 

OK OK I am done with this part of our disagreement!

 

The only point that I am making is that you read something and dismiss it,

I used to read the Christian apologist explanations for Young Earth. I used to be one. I used to believe what you believe.

 

But then I started to read science and books and websites by real scientists... you haven't done that yet. I already read the things you are giving me, but I have also read the other side... But you haven't. You have only read the Christian side of it and come to a conclusion. I read both sides and have come to a different conclusion.

 

 

and I read something and I do the same thing. We both already have our minds made up.

Listen, I was Christian for 30 years and believed what you believe.

 

I changed my mind just a few years ago.

 

I made up my mind based on a completely different issue of the whole argument about God.

 

Then I realized that when I read real scientific material, it was a lot more supported with arguments, math, evidence, facts, observations, and reasoning than the Christian critics had.

 

You can (and have) give me plenty of (facts) and sites to support your believe and I can do the same. You will not change your mind, nor will I change mine. The point here is that there is plenty of factual information out there to believe in a young earth. If you want to believe in the old earth thing and the "What Creator" thing, you can, but what you cannot do is say I have no factual claims to back up what I believe.

My estimate is that there are a billion times more evidence for the Old Earth, but that's probably just a low estimated.

 

Now in my next post, though I do want to address your most recent concerns in my last post, I want to try to hunt down Antlerheads questions that he is referring to. Antlerhead, you know I try not to ignore any tough questions, whether i know the answer or not, but with so many posters, they can be easily lost in the wind, per say. I will try to hunt down the questions in which you are referring to. And Ouroboros, I am hoping to get to you later on tonight.

Don't bother.

 

It's like you said, you have made up your mind that based on half-ass fringe non-scientific arguments for young Earth, then that must be true. All other 99.9% of the scientific community who knows that the world is older, are all wrong, because you decided not to read what they have. I've read both sides, and I know which side makes a better argument.

 

So again, don't bother. Maybe one day you will grow up and have the same realization I had.

[Ouroboros]

No, Ouroboros, God created the first light before He created the sun and the moon. This first light gave the signs of being day or night.

 

God is not also the night. God is light. Dark exist as an absence of God, or light. Ig God was not here, there would be no light.

So how could there be "night" the first night before the sun and the moon were made?

 

1. God disappeared

2. God turned off

3. God's light disappeared

4. God's light turned off

 

Which one?

 

Now you can take this verse however it is you want to, but let us pretend for my sake it is a real event in history. Did time stop here, or just the sun and moon? Was this day a 24 hour day or was it a 36 or more hour day?

You don't get my point.

 

If you have a light that you can turn on and off, what decides when there is a day or night? Your stopwatch?

 

If there is no sun or moon, how can there be 24 hours?

 

24 hours means: one rotation of Earth. That's how it was defined at first, and then we (very recent in history) created atomic clocks with fixed seconds, minutes, and hours.

 

So you tell me, if the sun stops, did they have a billion hours or no hours?

 

Besides, if the sun stopped in the sky, it means that Earth stopped rotating. That's the real physical event that must have happened.

 

In such a case, did the core stop too, or did its spin change relative to the rotation of Earth? Or did it keep on spinning with original speed, and the speed difference between Earth and care was increased?

 

How about the Moon, did it also stop rotation around Earth? How come it didn't crash into Earth? Oh, magic...

 

With you and your God, everything can be explained with magic.

 

That's why scientists are always wrong in your view, because they don't account for magic. *sigh*

 

Keep your fantasies about Harry Potter Jesus. Let Jesus swing his magical staff or wand and cast spells, I don't care. I just wish to see one of those miracles or magical things that you keep on believing in.

 

Point being it is God who controls the days. Whether the sun stops, or darkness last for three days (as it did for the egyptians before the Israelites were released) time goes on. The sun is there as a general guide for our sake as to when a day starts and ends. Just because rotation stops does not mean that time stops.

Are you sure?

 

If God can stop the spinning of Earth and the rotation of the Moon and prevent the Moon from falling into Earth or the Earth core to create a large amount of magnetic fields or completely failing... then why can't God stop the time too? God is powerful enough to counter any argument I make, but he's never powerful enough to do anything that counters your arguments. Somehow I see God as "The Stranger's God," and not the Bible God. God fits your belief completely, like magic, or a perfectly fitted glove.

 

I give up... I can't muster energy to argue with people with a childish belief and use fringe pseudo-science to support it.

 

Believe whatever you want. I just urge you to read something besides your religious literature... (I know you won't anyway, so whatever.)

 

It's very simple. If you want me to believe in your God, a constant stream of words will not make it. I want real proof. I want real things. I want to see it. I have seen the fossils and the evidence for the old Earth and evolution. I have not see ONE SINGLE miracle.

 

So far:

Evidence for Old Earth: trillions of arguments and proofs

Evidence for evolution: enormous amount of evidence

Evidence for Young Earth: some half-ass fringe pseudo-scientists complain about so called errors in science, but it's just them who do not understand science

Evidence for God: zero miracles, but a lot of blah-blah-blah from those who believe.

 

I want a miracle NOW. Or I will continue to KNOW that science is TRUE and your GOD is FALSE.

[Ouroboros]

Can you answer me this? What book has ever even came anywhere close to the popularity and sells of the bible?

Harry Potter.

Lord of the Rings.

The Quran.

...

 

In other words, fiction books.

 

Why do you believe this is? Do you think maybe somehow a (the) Creator is involved? Like it or not, the bible has stood the test of time, and only becomes more popular as time goes on.

That's not an argument for God's existence.

 

Let's say the Quran has been printed in the same amount of copies, does that make Islam true?

 

But I know something that actually would prove God's existence: a miracle. You still refuse to give me a miracle. Instead, you're just talking... blah-blah-blah. Words, words, words. Words will not convince me. Action will. Give me a solid miracle and I will believe.

 

If the bible was full of lies, do you believe it would have the credibility that it presently has?

Would you say the same of the Quran?

 

There are about 2.2 billion Christians in the world, and there are about 2.1 billion Muslims. It's very common for a Muslim to have at least one copy of the Quran, and the same goes for the Christian. So they're very close to each other.

 

So do you believe that 2.1 billion copies of the Quran makes Allah God?

 

And scientist have been correcting their mistakes since the get go. The bible believers never had to. What makes you think science has it right today? What if science proofs everything in the bible as truth in the future? Would you still believe science?

...

Bad arguments and you are clearly not understanding what I said. I'm not going to reiterate things for the third of fourth time because you didn't get the point. So never mind...

 

Now in regards to your second post, I really do appreciate some of the knowledge that you have shared. I know that you have been studying this sort of thing probably more years than I have been a christian. I am not trying to take away or insult any of the knowledge that you have gathered over the years. I have probably studied in days of which you have studied in years. And i will add that you brought up some interesting things. When all said and done, however, as already stated, I do not think either one of us is ever going to be convinced to believe what we already believe on this issue. Once again, however, thank you very much for your insight and web sites. Some of them I really did find quite interesting.

Agree. It's a waste of time.

[Ouroboros]

Genesis 2:

 

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 

20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Does it say how God "formed"? Does it say what fingers, hands, tools he used? No. It doesn't. So really, it's about interpretation.

 

Animals God had Adam name (or kinds of (groups of))

 

beast (including cattle) and fowl of the air (such as birds)

 

Animals that Adam is not said to name

 

Any animal that resides in the water

Any creeping thing

I see. It took him about five minutes then. It's just like Antlerman said, "creepy thing, flyee thing, and swimmy thing." Done.

 

If named in kinds (or groups) this would of took much less time.

If "kinds" or "groups" is the same as "species" then you're still out of luck. Millions of species, that's what I said.

 

Or let us just stick to land animals and birds, somewhere between 25 to 30,000. Try to name that many kinds in 3 days.

 

God also brought all the created animals to Adam to name. We should also note that many animals we see today (or better put, the variations of the animals we see today) at that time would not have existed. Like domestic animals, and most likely the different types of the same group of animal after spreading through the entire earth.

Wait!

 

Variations? How? From what?

 

Evolution is about change over time, or variations of the genetic pool. Are you now saying that evolution does work?

 

Where did the variations come from? If we look at the genetic structure, without mutations, there wouldn't be any variations. There's even a mathematical formula based on the concept of allele frequency equilibrium. But now you are saying that there are not equilibrium (i.e. evolutionary processes are at place)?

 

You're not making sense when you bring in evolution in parts and yet tell me that evolutions is completely and utterly false. Make up your mind.

 

Either God created all species as they are, or he didn't. If he didn't, then they "kinds" evolved.

 

This is exactly what the first evolutionary scientists realized (some of the Christians) before Darwin.

 

You do know that idea of animals evolving existed before Darwin, right? Darwin's contribution was not evolution, but natural selection. It was only one part of the theory, but a very significant part. But scientists believed evolution to be true before Darwin, they just didn't know exactly the process.

 

So now you are making the same argument the first evolutionists did. God created only a set of "kinds" and then they evolved to our modern species. But how? If not with genetic mutations, then how?

 

Bottom line, it would not have been is hard as it may appear.

Bottom line is that you are making up shit as you go.

 

That is a fair question for sure. I am sure that there may be more than one answer, but I look at it this way. From the very get go God knew that sin would soon be on the earth and He also there for knew all of the consequences of such.

God knew sin would come on Earth, so he prepared the system for the fall and the sin to come. He even created man to be able to fall for the tree-trick, and created the tree. Brilliant. You just described God as an asshole, again.

 

The bible seems to indicate a fairly short time span from creation to the disobedience. I think it may be quite possible that (a) they were created as such knowing that it would not be long as to when they would have to use their teeth. ((B)

So the carnivores had a caecum in their gut for a few days so they could eat and process the diet of leaves, roots, and such, but then the caecum disappeared when they finally could eat meat. Yeah. Right. Stupid. Extremely stupid... And you want me to just believe this shit? Just out of thin air like that? And the carnivores had to grind and chew all these roots and leaves with a teeth structure that doesn't support it whatsoever? Knowing what I know now about the dental formula and structure for the different animals and their corresponding diet... this is one of the most stupid things I've heard... sorry. It's just... very... wow... dumb. I don't have words for how dumb it sounds...

 

Put it this way, there are so many things that fail with that argument, and I'm just too tired of trying to argue with someone who uses magic to explain everything. As soon as a logical argument doesn't fit you, magic solves it. But when you want to argue your point, I can't give God the right to use magic to use it. It's only magic when you decide there is magic. It's an unfair discussion and unbalanced.

 

I will tell you a magical thing right now. Let's see if you accept it or not.

 

God created the world last Wednesday. He only planted the memory of a past life in you and me, and it feels like we did have a history in the past, but in reality, God just made the world last week. It's magic.

 

( b ) Just like the snake, humans, and the earth was cursed, and all of the above changed, likewise so did these animals.

 

Have a good night or day, whatever it is right now for you, Ouroboros, and I will talk with ya soon. I got to get up for work myself in about three hours. I do not know for sure if I will be posting tomorrow night yet or not. It depends if i can stay awake or not.

Don't bother.

 

Start your discussion with Antlerman instead. I'm checking out from this endless and worthless discussion.

[Guest Spinoza]

If the Creation Story is anything like a dream, God is also the Serpent (Trickster) called ha-nacash in Hebrew.

Better translated as "The Shining one"

God, is also Adam and Eve (Us) So there is no original Sin. It is the story of our desire to be created.

 

We "will" our existence. Our mind desires to be here to learn.

 

Is Jesus also there ? If he's the second Person, then he is The Shining one who is cursed and hung on a tree ... per Genesis 3:14 and John 3:14 (Pi)

 

^{Genesis 3:14}And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

 

John 3:¹⁴ Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

 

 

 

Genesis 1

 

The Beginning

¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

John 1

 

 

The Word Became Flesh

¹ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

 

Genesis is the story of our Creation (Our Psyche enclosed in the flesh) The Aleph in the Bayt.

It has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth.

 

 

 

 

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, sorry to do this to you, but for the life of me I cannot find the questions in which you are referring to. If you can direct me to a page or copy them for me it would be much appreciated, my friend.

Yeah, make me do the work. I'll hunt them down later and post all 10 of them in a row.

Alright, I did your work for you and collected all my posts you continued to promise you would respond to, which I prophecized you were avoiding and would eventually forget - which you did. Not to worry, here they are in order where you jumped ship on them. I look forward to your responses:

 

 

1. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__625850
   
2. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__625564
   
3. This in particular! http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__625898
   
4. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__626681
   
5. http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__626969
   
6. Flat Earth: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/24702-why-do-you-remain-a-christian/page__view__findpost__p__627416
   

[the stranger]

Don't bother.

 

Start your discussion with Antlerman instead. I'm checking out from this endless and worthless discussion.

 

 

You can choose to or not to respond to my reply, but since you have spent so long on your responses, I should at least note a couple of things. After this, unless you request otherwise, you can have the last say in this, and I will just answer Antlermans questions and start on the bible discussions next.

 

I have checked the given web sites (site) and have noticed that many of the reasons they site for the Christian claim as being false are things that have already been discussed is true on the Christian sites. In other words, it is like rolling on top of the ball, and depending on what side is up is depending on what side the ball is on according to our positioning on the ball. Round and round we go, where it stops, only the believer knows.

 

Now it is true that I have read more on the Christian sites than the other, but I have read at least in part, both sides. No, I do not have the same insight is you do on the science study issue, and I probably will never have it be my focus point. Bottom line, thanks for talking with me about it. I have learned much more than I knew before.

 

So how could there be "night" the first night before the sun and the moon were made?

 

1. God disappeared

2. God turned off

3. God's light disappeared

4. God's light turned off

 

Which one?

 

Just like the sun, the earth rotated for a time around the first light, thus still having an appearance of a night and a day.

 

You don't get my point.

 

If you have a light that you can turn on and off, what decides when there is a day or night? Your stopwatch?

 

If there is no sun or moon, how can there be 24 hours?

 

24 hours means: one rotation of Earth. That's how it was defined at first, and then we (very recent in history) created atomic clocks with fixed seconds, minutes, and hours.

 

That is my point, my friend. We see a 24 hour period as one rotation around the sun. That is how God created it to be. However, that does not mean 24 hours will stop or cease to exist if the sun and moon disappeared. If so, the 1,000 year mill. would be hard to believe since all things as we know it would have ended. The first light gave a center piece for the earth to rotate, but even if the earth stood still, time does not. Time or a 24 hour period is not based up on the sun and moon, but the sun and moon help us relate to such as they were made to govern them both. (the night and the day) No need to respon to this one my friend. You believe everything has to be explained by science, though there is much more that cannot be explained by science than there is that can be. (or believed to be)

 

If God can stop the spinning of Earth and the rotation of the Moon and prevent the Moon from falling into Earth or the Earth core to create a large amount of magnetic fields or completely failing... then why can't God stop the time too? God is powerful enough to counter any argument I make, but he's never powerful enough to do anything that counters your arguments. Somehow I see God as "The Stranger's God," and not the Bible God. God fits your belief completely, like magic, or a perfectly fitted glove.

 

Actually, God has been showing me that I am the one that needs to change, more and more into His image. God does not fit, or cannot fit, where I put Him. Between God is God or He is a fairy tale. If he is God, the real God, we don't put Him anywhere. We were made for Him, to worship Him, but not for god to fit into our box, or for Him to worship us.

 

My family member always wants things done on his time frame, as we all do. Employees, kids, and everybody else. It is our nature. But is a parent a good parent if they subject themselves to their kids timeline though they know better, or a boss a good boss, if he allowes his empoyees to run the show, though he knows better? The same is true for god.

 

In stopping time, there is a couple verses used to indicate that possibility, but that is another question. It concerns shadows moving back, on a sun dial and a man, two separate stories.

 

I want a miracle NOW. Or I will continue to KNOW that science is TRUE and your GOD is FALSE.

 

Ouroboros, I believe you will see one. When you do, the decision to believe or dismiss will be yours to make. God will show Himself real to you, and then, at that time, the decision will be yours and yours alone, and it will all rest on your shoulders. I believe this will happen sooner than later, and you are strongly upon my heart and I am continuesly praying for the revelation you are looking for.

 

Concerning the bible, it is believes that there are more than 6 billion around the world. Is there any other "book" that can compare to these numbers, even when this very book has had so much history at the attempts to destroy it.

 

There are over 24,000 ancient copies of the bible found, and no others even come close. My link

 

Wait!

 

Variations? How? From what?

 

Evolution is about change over time, or variations of the genetic pool. Are you now saying that evolution does work?

 

Changing and or expanding to adopt to ones surroundings is different than growing from an ant to a human being. Could you survive in Northern Canada right now? I doubt I could, yet indians have for many of years before modern science. How about the desert? Not me. Point being, just because we change, adopt, and learn to survive with the help of sometimes slightly different bodily funtional changes in the way they use to be, like body temperture, and color of skin to some degree from being in the sun, this does not point to evolution. Inner breeding, explosive growth in the animal kingdom, and changing to ones weather conditions or other conditions that one cannot change themselves do not point to evolution.

 

We do not see half and half of anything, though I guess you have already explained your stance on this issue.

 

You just described God as an asshole, again.

 

Free choice. You have the right to call God what you will, as He already knew that you would. Tell me, is it God that made you call Him an Ahole or was it a personal decision on your part? Would it be better if He just stopped you from speaking? Turn us into robots?

 

Every parent knows their kids will get hurt, but we do not keep them inside all day. (At least I hope not)

 

You can say, well God should of created us to have a hearth that loves Him and never wants to do anything that hurts Him, and than we would not have to worry about hell.

 

Good news. Through Jesus Christ, He did. He gave me a new heart, but it was because I needed and WANTED one. Not because He took me in for an unwanted surgery.

 

God loves us so much, that He allows us to make our own choices for or against Him. What it does not mean, is that god made us sin. I am glad that we have free will, as I am glad that we live in a free country.

 

Brother, what is science as it relates to what we do not know? You say magic, I say God. Science can explain some current things but can never explain most things. Why do i still have a feeding tube? Can science fix that? Why are so many people depressed today? Science has been trying to fix this, but have failed in a big way. Hurricanes, tornadoes, yes, we have an idea of what they are in why they form, but still cannot predict before hand in these events, and even when we think we have, it disappears and nobody can figure out where it went. Science. Is it what we know or is it what we don't know.

 

The things I say that seem quite stupid may be just that, but if I do not know something as that of which I believe as fact, I am the first to let you know. I do not assume what i do not know, my friend.

 

==================================================================================

 

Friend, my prayers are with you, and please, give us the last word in relationship to this topic. I will only respond if requested. I will be redirecting my thoughts (whatever they might be worth) to the accurecy of the bible, and not my spelling.

 

God bless

[the stranger]

Thank you thank you thank you, Antlerman. You will be my next post. I know that took some time. I am afraid that i would have never been able to accomplish the task of which was at hand.

 

Thanks again and I will respond later today. No more post will be made before your questions are answered to the best of my ability. (fortuntly, with God all things are possible. Except my spelling LOL)

[RankStranger]

[Ouroboros]

Yeah. Agree. I'm done.

[the stranger]

I know what you're hoping to say, but I can tell you that this great "I am" is not understood by even the majority of those who claim it, and that the meaning of that surpasses the very religion that espouses it. In short, the mystical eludes the religion, and God to one is not God to the other. Process that, and get back to me.

 

You are right when you say that the Great I Am is not fully understood by the church. We will never be able to fully understand God. If we could, would He be God? To be honest, I cannot even understand the actions of my dog allot of the time. Point being, if God is God, and we are His creation, since when was the one created ever accomplish fully knowing the Creator? Is the student smarter than the teacher?

 

Now the last part you say God to one is not God to the other. I want to start be saying that there are Christians in every country around the world, and I do not believe all religions can make that claim. I would like you to note any other "Gods" that you are aware of that claim that God Himself came down to earth to be crucified to pay for our sins and disobedience, and then rise again (on the third day). Is there any other "God" out there that claim a desire for a personally relationship full of grace, love, and mercy, here on earth? Is there any other "God" you are aware of that heals the sick, raises the dead, and has paved the way for a personal relationship with himself?

 

Acts 17:22-31 (Contemporary English Version)

 

22So Paul stood up in front of the council and said:

 

People of Athens, I see that you are very religious. 23As I was going through your city and looking at the things you worship, I found an altar with the words, "To an Unknown God." You worship this God, but you don't really know him. So I want to tell you about him. 24This God made the world and everything in it. He is Lord of heaven and earth, and he doesn't live in temples built by human hands. 25He doesn't need help from anyone. He gives life, breath, and everything else to all people. 26From one person God made all nations who live on earth, and he decided when and where every nation would be.

 

27God has done all this, so that we will look for him and reach out and find him. He isn't far from any of us, 28and he gives us the power to live, to move, and to be who we are. "We are his children," just as some of your poets have said.

 

29Since we are God's children, we must not think that he is like an idol made out of gold or silver or stone. He isn't like anything that humans have thought up and made. 30In the past, God forgave all this because people did not know what they were doing. But now he says that everyone everywhere must turn to him. 31He has set a day when he will judge the world's people with fairness. And he has chosen the man Jesus to do the judging for him. God has given proof of this to all of us by raising Jesus from death.

 

Psalm 145:18 (New Century Version)

 

 

18 The Lord is close to everyone who prays to him,

to all who truly pray to him.

 

James 4:8 (New King James Version)

 

8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

 

 

 

 

 

I know of no other "religion" who makes these sort of claims, my friend. Am I wrong?

 

 

In a Christians mind (and apart from that) there is one God, and one God only. Now whether one believes in the God, a fake God, a false God, or even no God at all, it still does not change that fact. Some say it takes faith to believe in "God" but does it not take faith to believe in no God, and that everything created was created by chance? Almost all other times and people have always worshiped a god of some sort, even if not the one true God.

 

====================================================================================================================\

 

 

For #2, I am not sure what you are asking. I can find no direct question. Do you just want me to comment on your post?

 

====================================================================================================================

 

For #3, I believe the first part has been addressed. That is, it all depends on what test is referred to and what results you are speaking of. I have pointed out many, many test that seem to point to a young earth.

 

About the bible, we can get into that more if you would like a bit later. I have done plenty of research, but not in the same direction.

 

The key for you? Get rid of the belief you need absolute authority. Why is that necessary?? Look at the nasty trap you get in when you do? Trust me, your faith if it is strong doesn't need it, nor is based on it. Remind me to explain the difference between faith and belief to you, and that both are replaced in direct apprehension.

 

 

I lived with out what i believed to be absolute authority for way to long. I know already what it is like to deny Christ. I should have been dead many times, and I will never go back down that road because of my faith in Christ Jesus. You say I get in a trap, but I say I am free from my trap. I no longer have to live to hurt and for self pleasure. I am free to think with a clear conscience now, and with that, free to open communication with Christ my Savior. My faith apart from Christ is nothing. Christ is my solid rock. What more would or could I put my faith into except the one who changed my life? Every one has that choice, but for me that choice is easy. I would, however, like to know about this -- difference between faith and belief.

 

==================================================================================================================

 

Again, explain me. I believe in the existence of the Divine, yet find zero problems with any of this. In fact to me, it is way, way more inspiring that the nonsense of the YEC people. I find it increases my recognition of God, whereas believing in the sort of Sunday School trash of the AiG people with their Noah's Ark proof sort of thing, reduced God to a side-show oddity level, a magic man in the sky.

 

Isn't this all really more about your inability to remove God from your preconceptions? A lack of faith, in other words? (I'm looking in there again... and this is what I see. )

 

What you believe in, to be honest, I am still trying to grasp. It seems to me to be all over the place. In any event, that would make it easy to believe just about anything one wanted to about creation, including creation. I am not trying to knock you, but just relating my thoughts. Who I believe in is a personal God, One we have direct communication with, not one where we just kind of make it up as we go. Forgive me for not fully understanding where you are coming from.

 

As explained just a few post back, it is not about me putting God in a box, but about God teaching me more about Himself. He is God, and so how can i or any body else truly comprehend or fully understand him? How can anyone put God in their own preconceptions? He has never fit any of mine. The best way I have is to read the bible to the best of my ability and to try to understand it is the Gods honest truth. If I cannot believe in Gods word, what do I have? blind faith? I don't want to be like the many. I want something concrete to always put my faith into.

 

 

About your question relating to the web sites that I have posted as evidence and their true goal, you are right. Of course, it works both ways. You claim that there is no bias and that in general they (the majority of sciencetist) just seek the truth, however, in my own research, and from the many things that I hear, despite good evidence, and many facts, the creation idea is rarely allowed the time or space to compete or be seen. Is there a reason behind this. Why not let all state their case beside one another? I have read many articles about no evolutionist willing to go head to head with a creationist. Why? I believe we both (sciencetist) have an agenda, and this is not just one sided.

 

The harder question you have not answered which I asked is, would you still believe if everything we are saying that the evidence in fact does show regarding the age of the universe, earth, and the fact of evolution is in fact accurate?

 

I think you've answered that. No. You wouldn't believe. At least that's what you fear.

 

Why is that? What is your faith in? Your beliefs?

 

 

As I predicted, you went running off into this rabbit hole of distraction debating science, rather than addressing the real issue which is what I pointed out, and still am.

 

If the evidence in which was presented had no real opposition to it and it also included all of the other test that support the young earth, and what you claim, there was no getting around it, then yes, I would reconsider allot of things. But be that is it may, in my own research, I have found more test results relating to young earth than that of an old earth. If I cannot believe part of the bible, than I cannot believe any of the bible.

 

Relating to your last point, maybe I missed it, what is the real issue, or question here?

 

After faith then is apprehension of Truth itself, beyond all ideas and conceptions. But you can't get there hanging onto your beliefs.

 

Again, I have been with out faith for too too long. I know what that is like for me, as I have been there. Now, with my faith in Jesus Christ, I have hope, not just in this life, but after.

 

God in a box. You imagine God as being so small as needing his ego sated? "You hurt daddy's feelings". Seriously?

 

God is Light.

 

Do you understand how that is so utterly beyond petty emotions about getting recognition?

 

God is Love.

 

Love does not need anything. It is everything. It draws and flows. It is utterly beyond egotistic needs. It is the fullness of Being itself.

 

These are words you've heard, but fail to grasp, and will never grasp substituting your beliefs as Truth.

 

He is God and needs no praise or belief, but He sure does love it. You supply all the needs for your wife, kids, pets, and maybe others. What if they gave you know thankyous or respect or appreciation for doing all of that? What if they treated you as if you were not even there? Would you be happy? Now how about if you were God?

 

When you love, and receive hate back, does it create a circle of love? Love is endless whether accepted or not, but the history of past events help us determine our future decisions. God needs nothing, but He created us for Himself. When we do not hold up to the whole purpose that we were created for, than certainly our relationship with Him cannot be complete.

[the stranger]

===================================================================================================================

 

Personally, I think that's something you'd like to tell yourself to process how or why someone would not see things the same as you. Please understand, it's about growth for each and every one of us. That's why I like this site so much. Each person needed to shed it off themselves for liberty of mind and spirit. It's not about being freed from responsibility, but being freed to grow more so. That's the part I think you can't fathom - yet.

 

No one can disagree that growth in good things is bad, but for me personally, my growth was no growth, and only decline, until I accepted Jesus Christ.

 

You see, none of that applies to me. I don't reject God. I grew God up, so to speak.

 

My friend, that does not sound like the God I know. My God grew me up.

 

Everyone believes something, but it's what we grow towards that is of infinite more value to understanding.

 

For me, there is no growth with out Christ. Just like the Mountain Due commercials, Been there, done that. LOL

 

 

Let's see if you'll come there with me. But I can promise you, the result might be a loosening of your stranglehold on your ideas of truth in favor of something much larger than them, much more inclusive, much more free and embracing. Is your faith up to this, or do you wish to remain in shadows assuring yourself the world is square?

 

 

I know of no more freedom and embracing as I have found with Jesus and the majority of His family. I think the problem is you see me keeping myself in a little box. The truth is, Jesus broke that box. He took off my chains and now because I have no fear of my sin, I can live in bravity, clear mindeness, and self confident. It is not a box that i live in, but a new world of freedom, as long as I do not return to that box.

 

=================================================================================================================

 

 

Now I hope that I did get to all of your questions, apart from the last page. I will get to that perhaps later tonight as it seems it could take me a bit longer to go through, and the dog is telling me something about himself, and his desire to make messes on others lawns.

 

I will finist shortly.

 

Thankyou again for researching them all back to this post. I know that that took some time.

[the stranger]

Dear Antlerman. You have put up some interesting material. I never knew that there was any Christians at any time that believed in the flat earth. I confess I did not read every one, but most of them. I found concern with these and I could not understand how this could be when the bible tells a different story.

 

In any event, I did a little research of my own. Truth said, there was some isolated Christians out there that did believe in flat earth, but this was not the norm. Most Christians had always believed in a round earth based on my research.

 

The link I am posting seems to lay out a good case of history concerning these ideas.

 

My link

 

 

 

Bottom line, part of what is stated is true, but this was believed in only a handful. If anything, it kinds of reminds me of the modern day old earth christians. I might add that they took the advise of these handfull of Christians, and delighted to make it as fact. Does this kind of make you wonder?

 

 

 

About the city of "Zion", that is some neat stuff. It kind of reminds me of the Kentucky place, south of Lexington. I think it was something like the Shakerville or something. I cannot remeber right now. Any how, I believe there were many that had tried this. I am not sure why. It was never a biblical practice. Jesus ate and conversed with many people of many issues. It was never His intent that we run and hide from all of the trouble, but it is interesting. I did hear in some of these communities some crimes went unpunished and for the victom, there was little that they could do.

 

Any how, thank you for sharing. That was really neat to read. They sure had the tabaco thing right on target. (Zion)

 

 

God bless

[DesertBob]

In any event, I did a little research of my own. Truth said, there was some isolated Christians out there that did believe in flat earth, but this was not the norm ... this was believed [by] only a handful.

In my experience, it's not so much that something as extensive as the Zion-style True Believerism is that common -- it usually doesn't go that far -- but the human tendency to want to differentiate a particular group produces much smaller versions of this. Most of this sort of nuttiness hides within more "respectable" and accepted social structures.

 

I have personally encountered, among others:

 

1) A small but active and well-tolerated group within a large megachurch that was deeply into the casting out of demons, using as their inspiration, this church: http://hbcdelivers.s439.sureserver.com/

 

2) The Shepherding movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherding_Movement). My late wife was caught up in this before I met her and her church elders literally controlled her personal life, demanding detailed information even about her sex life with her husband.

 

There is no end of wackiness out there because when you acquiesce to the basic premises of Christianity it is not a very big step to all sorts of, shall we say, interesting abuses, because you are basically surrendering your personal judgment and responsibility to a book, and ultimately, to others.

[Thumbelina]

Stranger, here's just one video that I'd like you to watch and really think about:

 

 

 

Wow, that was seriously interesting! I could watch that guy speak all day long because he is soooooo hot

 

I dont know how many of you guys know, but I am struggling with my christianity atm. It was eye opening to watch that vid anyway.

 

 

This guy is just spewing the same old tripe from that SAB website. Yes he is hot but beauty fades and God's word endures forever. Look at him, admire him as one admires a nice sunset but don't pay any attention to the swill he's spewing.

 

You know if that dude gets in some dire straits he won't call out "Big bang save me!" or "My brain help me!" and he won't be calling out to a monkey's uncle either; like Peter, he'll say " Lord save me!"

 

By beholding we become changed and it is important for the Christian to meditate on God's word daily. Even the hymn "Come Thou Fount Of Every Blessing" says we are "prone to wander; prone to leave the God I love". God loves us, we are the apple of His eye please remember that

[the stranger]

Way to go Thumbelina. We heard who all the people called out to in the last big earthquake. They were singing praises of Jesus in the streets. Praise the Lord.

 

Desertbob, In part you are correct, but many times I believe some cults or other wise known as "crazies" just use the bible to try to justify their sinful actions and preverse mind set. Not all who say "Jesus, Jesus" are from God, spiritually speaking.

[Thumbelina]

Way to go Thumbelina. We heard who all the people called out to in the last big earthquake. They were singing praises of Jesus in the streets. Praise the Lord.

 

I saw a missionary on T.V who works down there. He was laughing and saying that the people are coming to Christianity because during the quake they heard the vodoo priests calling out to God

 

Yes, the people are going through a tough time but as long as they come to God death will only be a "sleep".

[the stranger]

Yes, the people are going through a tough time but as long as they come to God death will only be a "sleep"

 

Well, we may not see eye to eye on the sleep bit, but praise the Lord were together where it matters most. What is death when one has everlasting life?

 

It is good to see ya here. I see you have been around a bit longer than me. God bless ya sister, and keep up the good work!

[agnosticator]

It says a lot when christians are allowed on this site with the welcome mat out, while any of us ex-cers would be banned on any christian site. So go ahead and spout the same tired, old sayings and quote those texts. We won't ban you because we are gracious and more willing to coexist with you than most christians would us. They wouldn't dream of tolerating us heathen. The Golden Rule means something here.

[the stranger]

Agnosticator, On behalf of all the sites that would, I apologize. I know for a fact that some would. In saying that however, I have read some and have been an active part of one that would never do such a thing. I do appreciate the acceptance on this site, but please understand that not all Christian sites are alike, and some are very open, such as yourselves.

 

Have a good one, Agnost.

[agnosticator]

Agnosticator, On behalf of all the sites that would, I apologize. I know for a fact that some would. In saying that however, I have read some and have been an active part of one that would never do such a thing. I do appreciate the acceptance on this site, but please understand that not all Christian sites are alike, and some are very open, such as yourselves.

 

You don't have to apologize for what others have done, but thanks stranger (now I feel like a cowboy saying your name!). I'm curious. Which site are you referring to?