Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros, do you ever get the feeling you are having dialog with a small soap dish? Or perhaps an aquarium rock?

Absolutely.

 

Just another day and just another asshole Christian without a brain.

 

I'm lucky though. For the first time I have seen Christians de-convert from their fundamentalist attitudes. In the anthropology class I took this semester, several students realized their imaginary young-earth creationist view were wrong. The evidence is too overwhelming. The only ones who didn't get affected, dropped the class around mid-term. That's the only way to defend ignorance, by hiding.

[Thumbelina]

I almost drowned once, I was not a Christian then but I believed in God. When it happened there was no time to do anything but gasp for air, I did not call out to God either but maybe subconsciously I did, who knows? (God does). Maybe God allowed me to survive because He knew I would come to Him later?

 

If you didn't, that would negate your assertion that all people call out to God when faced with death.

 

Your brain is exhibiting just how an amazing a machine it is, to come up with the solution of maybe subconsciously to protect you from the evidence against the neat, orderly world you're positing.

 

Phanta

 

Hey, quit putting words in my mouth! I did not say "all" people. The scoffer tends to think they are "god" by default so why are they calling out to God? They should call out to science or Dawkins or something like that. They inherently know that there is a God.

 

How arrogant can you get Thumblina, for one, calling us scoffers is insulting to the rational intelligent thought that people here have put into their belief systems. For that alone you have lost any respect you may have left here.

Saying that those that have out grown the childly fairy tale of god think they are god? Please read some of the stories here and you find that this is far from the truth. but then truth isn't something you can deal with, is it? If it was you would no longer follow the lies portrayed in the selection of writings know as the bible.

I know there is no god, and will not call out to it at anytime. Been there done that and it was as useless as tying to walk to the moon.

 

 

The bible calls sacrilegious unbelievers scoffers 2 Peter 3:3 and yeah, I need to learn how to be tactful but in MY experience some atheistic types like the tell-it-like-it-is type of talks. You are FREE to not believe in God and others are FREE to do so and I have been graciously given a chance to be able to state my case in the den. I'm also learning about other people

[Antlerman]

Some atheists are gonna have death-bed conversions, like that thief on the cross.

Chapter and verse please? The thief on the cross was an atheist. Chapter and verse please?

 

 

Absolutely fascinating. Are you assuming because he was a criminal he was an atheist?

 

Let's see what "God's Word" says, shall we?

 

"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

 

But the other criminal rebuked him. "

Don't you fear God

," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

 

Then he said, "

Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom

."

 

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

Lk. 23:39-43

 

Atheist? No, he was a believer in God!

 

You're non-spirit-filled prejudices are hereby exposed. Embrace it. It's yours.

 

My question is why didn't he cry out to the tangible person who was there for him? He had been atheist for a very long time, he was in his nineties, I think.

Duress and cultural programming. Why does the dying soldier who believes in Jesus cry out for his mommy instead of his Savior? Duress. The mind is not clear. There is your answer for both.

 

Um, Mr., spiritual things are spiritually discerned

Yes, and why you don't see them. You are religious.

 

"By their fruits you shall know them."

 

So far, you take joy in a man's calling out to a god you happen to have adopted as your deity of choice, while he is in the throws of death anguish (praise God!!!); secondly, you prejudice label men who were sentenced to die as being Atheist, when in fact the Bible itself say they believed in God. So far, your fruits are 100% what I would expect from a believer in a religion, Ms. Believer.

 

and the bible is foolishness to the ungodly but to the believer Romans 8:18 says--

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

In other words, we are not to worry; God offers us peace in this life but we are slow in holding on to it.

Oh, but you do worry. It's what keeps you a believer. It isn't because it is producing spiritual fruit, so it has to be for that reason you are such a strong believer. You're right about being able to discern, you just don't understand what that actually is.

 

I should have said people TEND to fear death. I don't fear death now either, I fear the PAIN!

No, you fear death. Proof? Answer this question: If Jesus said to you,

 

"Child, there is no afterlife. All that is is now. You will not see your loved ones on 'the other side', they have passed as you shall. All that is, is in the present. Heaven and hell is what you live in this one and only life you will ever have."

 

Would you still be a Christian?

 

God is still working on me but at least I am willing to let Him

Then open the eyes and ears of your heart and shut your mouth. To be blunt. What I hear doesn't come from there. You're much to busy passing judgment and being religious.

 

He can work with that but people who believe in self-determination can be a pain in the tuckus,

I would say that working with the religious is far harder, actually. The difference is that they convince themselves they are spiritual when they are not.

 

 

they block the Holy Spirit out which is WHY it may take a calamity for them to see they are not self-sufficient.

Or in the case of the very religious, they would likely just interpret the calamity as an attack of Satan and never let it open the eyes and ears of their heart as they cling to their religiousness out of fear of actually confronting their true Self.

 

 

I wonder how much of any of that you actually hear.

[Guest Spinoza]

"Humans" known taxonomically as Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man")

 

Not everyone knows that yet.

[Antlerman]

"Humans" known taxonomically as Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man")

 

Not everyone knows that yet.

Then are any of us actually Homo Sapiens? I say as Plotinus does, "Man is poised halfway between the gods and the beasts." (Some are more beastly than others, I should add. )

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina said: Some atheists are gonna have death-bed conversions, like that thief on the cross.

 

 

 

Aman: Chapter and verse please? The thief on the cross was an atheist. Chapter and verse please?

 

 

Absolutely fascinating, your psychology is! You assume because he was a criminal he was an atheist!!

 

Let's see what "God's Word" says, shall we?

 

 

"One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

 

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

 

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

 

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

Lk. 23:39-43

 

 

 

Atheists? Neither of them were. They were believers in God!

 

You're non-spirit-filled prejudices are hereby exposed. Embrace it. It's yours.

 

 

Thumbelina: Mr., please don't misunderstand me; I did not say the theif was an atheist, I said he had a death-bed conversion. Anyway, we are a planet full of virtual atheists and in another thread I told Ouroboros that there is no such thing as an atheist. IMO an atheist is a God denier; he/she denies God's existence so he/she can be autonomous; it may be done consciously or unconsciously.

 

 

 

Thumbelina, said:My question is why didn't he cry out to the tangible person who was there for him? He had been atheist for a very long time, he was in his nineties, I think.

 

 

 

 

Aman: Duress and cultural programming. Why does the dying soldier who believes in Jesus cry out for his mommy instead of his Savior? Duress. The mind is not clear. There is your answer for both.

 

Thumbelina: Darn it, I wrote down the name of a book that someone wrote, maybe a secularist, and it described the way that all different types of people die and their last words and I don't remember where I wrote it but apparently atheistic types don't die peacefully. I was also talking about people who were in situations where they have time to think about impending demise, they do tend to call out to God.Even one hymn writer, I think the one that wrote "Amazing Grace", he used to have slaves and used to rape the female slaves but one night he almost died and he called out to God and God saved him and he repented.

 

 

Thumbelina,said: Um, Mr., spiritual things are spiritually discerned

 

 

 

Aman: Yes, and why you don't see them. You are religious.

 

"By their fruits you shall know them."

 

Thumbelina: I'm seeing some and I have a lot more to learn, you know, the sanctification process?

 

 

Aman: So far, you take joy in a man's calling out to a god you happen to have adopted as your deity of choice, while he is in the throws of death anguish (praise God!!!); secondly, you prejudice label men who were sentenced to die as being Atheist, when in fact the Bible itself say they believed in God. So far, your fruits are 100% what I would expect from a believer in a religion, Ms. Believer.

 

 

Mr. head honcho lion, are you into joshing (it lightens things up)? -- Ouroboros can kid around but he seems to get moody sometimes and I'm understanding why -- I can't tell because I've never really interacted with you before. Some folks on here are really cool and they don't mind me. In case you're into joshing, why are you doing that sin that so easily besets us humans? Being judgmental i.e.

 

I take joy in that MAYBE God got through to him before it was too late.

 

 

Thumbelina said: and the bible is foolishness to the ungodly but to the believer Romans 8:18 says--

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

In other words, we are not to worry; God offers us peace in this life but we are slow in holding on to it.

 

 

 

 

 

Aman: Oh, but you do worry. It's what keeps you a believer. It because it is producing spiritual fruit, so it has to be for that reason you are such a strong believer. You're right about being able to discern, you just don't understand what that actually is.

 

 

Thumbelina: This is why I'm a believer: John 6:68 "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Jesus is incredible I love Him and He loves me.

 

Thumbelina said: I should have said people TEND to fear death. I don't fear death now either, I fear the PAIN!

 

 

 

Aman: No, you fear death. Proof? Answer this question: If Jesus said to you,

 

 

"Child, there is no afterlife. All that is is now. You will not see your loved ones on 'the other side', they have passed as you shall. All that is, is in the present. Heaven and hell is what you live in this one and only life you will ever have."

 

 

Would you still be a Christian?

 

 

Thumbelina: That is not even one of the options that the GOSPEL offers but I'll play along -- yes, Jesus gives me love, joy and peace now and I love His commandments.

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: God is still working on me but at least I am willing to let Him

 

 

Aman: Then open the eyes and ears of your heart and shut your mouth. To be blunt. What I hear doesn't come from there. You're much to busy passing judgment and being religious.

 

Thumbelina: I will learn from my mistakes and thank you for your constructive criticisms

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: He can work with that but people who believe in self-determination can be a pain in the tuckus,

 

 

 

Aman: I would say that working with the religious is far harder, actually. The difference is that they convince themselves they are spiritual when they are not.

 

Thumbelina: You kind of remind me of Centauri, I really like him Yeah you're right it's the religious folk that's gonna cause the main trouble but I'm not expounding on that because ...

 

 

Thumbelina said: they block the Holy Spirit out which is WHY it may take a calamity for them to see they are not self-sufficient.

 

 

Aman: Or in the case of the religious, they might they would just interpret the calamity as an attack of Satan and never open the eyes and ears of their heart as the cling to their religiousness out of fear of confronting their true Self.

 

I wonder how much of any of that you actually hear.

 

 

Thumbelina: A lot of the calamities are from Satan but God ALLOWS everything for a purpose. Also, God can send judgments too, I'm not gonna lie.

[Guest Spinoza]

"Humans" known taxonomically as Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man")

 

Not everyone knows that yet.

Then are any of us actually Homo Sapiens? I say as Plotinus does, "Man is poised halfway between the gods and the beasts." (Some are more beastly than others, I should add. )

 

Well, accoring to the definition .....

If nobody knows, and none are wise then we are not Homosapiens.

[Guest Valk0010]

[Guest Spinoza]

Live Now & Be kind.

 

Let people believe what they want to believe. Who are you to tell them otherwise ?

[the stranger]

Pray to your God that my son is healed. If he walks by his own power, muscles regenerated, spinal cord healed, and all the other problems gone, then I promise you, I will believe.

 

Mark 9:14-29 (English Standard Version)

 

Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit

14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd around them, and scribes arguing with them. 15And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed and ran up to him and greeted him. 16And he asked them, "What are you arguing about with them?" 17And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. 18And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." 19And he answered them, "O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me." 20And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21And Jesus asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us." 23And Jesus said to him, "'If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes." 24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" 25And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again." 26And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?" 29And he said to them, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."

 

 

 

 

Ouroboros, This is what I want us to focus on.

 

Mark 9:23-27 (New Living Translation)

 

23 “What do you mean, ‘If I can’?” Jesus asked. “Anything is possible if a person believes.”

 

24 The father instantly cried out, “I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!”

 

25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. “Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak,” he said. “I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!”

 

26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up

 

====================================================================================================================

 

DO YOU BELIEVE? CAN YOU BELIEVE? ARE YOU WILLING TO ASK JESUS TO HELP YOU BELIEVE?

[BrotherJosh]

Pray to your God that my son is healed. If he walks by his own power, muscles regenerated, spinal cord healed, and all the other problems gone, then I promise you, I will believe.

 

Mark 9:14-29 (English Standard Version)

 

Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit

14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd around them, and scribes arguing with them. 15And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed and ran up to him and greeted him. 16And he asked them, "What are you arguing about with them?" 17And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. 18And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." 19And he answered them, "O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me." 20And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21And Jesus asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us." 23And Jesus said to him, "'If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes." 24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" 25And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again." 26And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?" 29And he said to them, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."

 

 

 

 

Ouroboros, This is what I want us to focus on.

 

Mark 9:23-27 (New Living Translation)

 

23 “What do you mean, ‘If I can’?” Jesus asked. “Anything is possible if a person believes.”

 

24 The father instantly cried out, “I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!”

 

25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. “Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak,” he said. “I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!”

 

26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up

 

====================================================================================================================

 

DO YOU BELIEVE? CAN YOU BELIEVE? ARE YOU WILLING TO ASK JESUS TO HELP YOU BELIEVE?

 

 

 

You're comparing what is probably (though it didn't happen) a case of epilepsy, schizophrenia or some other form of mental illness with having a spinal cord injury? So people are only healed if they really really believe? What if they aren't healed, do you understand the type of guilt people go through when they aren't? What a disgusting tactic to try and blackmail someone. If you really believe your child will be healed. Why not just the healing, and then the belief? If these so called miracles actually happened than why aren't people clamoring over themselves to get to it? I know a number of people with cancer, mental illness or auto-immune diseases that would love to have some manner of healing...I even know some that have sought out this type of healing. Guess what, it didn't work, and afterwards they felt guilty because they didn't believe enough.

 

 

[Ouroboros]

Pray to your God that my son is healed. If he walks by his own power, muscles regenerated, spinal cord healed, and all the other problems gone, then I promise you, I will believe.

 

Mark 9:14-29 (English Standard Version)

 

Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit

14 And when they came to the disciples, they saw a great crowd around them, and scribes arguing with them. 15And immediately all the crowd, when they saw him, were greatly amazed and ran up to him and greeted him. 16And he asked them, "What are you arguing about with them?" 17And someone from the crowd answered him, "Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. 18And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able." 19And he answered them, "O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me." 20And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. 21And Jesus asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22And it has often cast him into fire and into water, to destroy him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us." 23And Jesus said to him, "'If you can'! All things are possible for one who believes." 24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" 25And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again." 26And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, "He is dead." 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, "Why could we not cast it out?" 29And he said to them, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."

20,000 people prayed for my son. That's not enough?

 

Oh, you prayed. That would make a difference. I'll check... nope. No change. Your God doesn't answer your prayers.

 

And by the way, my son's condition has nothing to do with demons.

 

Ouroboros, This is what I want us to focus on.

 

Mark 9:23-27 (New Living Translation)

 

23 “What do you mean, ‘If I can’?” Jesus asked. “Anything is possible if a person believes.”

 

24 The father instantly cried out, “I do believe, but help me overcome my unbelief!”

 

25 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil[a] spirit. “Listen, you spirit that makes this boy unable to hear and speak,” he said. “I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!”

 

26 Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd as people said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up

Ah. I see. First I have to believe before I can get the sign that would prove that Jesus is true so I can believe.

 

How circular.

 

You know, if God exists, God takes the first step. He's the bigger guy. Belief in God comes from God, not from our own doing. Words, words, words. All you can give me are words. Blah, blah, blah, blah... ad nauseum...

 

If I have to believe first, then why would I need the proof? Why would I need the miracle?

 

The key here is, prove God to me. How would you do it? By me believing first and you can skip out on the proof? Or you proving first and that would convert me? Which way makes most sense?

 

Or put it this way, Zeus is the true God, but he won't do any miracles unless you convert first.

 

How stupid.

 

So here is what I want us to do. You pray. I wait for the miracle. If I see it, then I believe. How about that?

 

DO YOU BELIEVE? CAN YOU BELIEVE? ARE YOU WILLING TO ASK JESUS TO HELP YOU BELIEVE?

I did for 10 years after the accident.

 

I have a signed letter from Bill Clinton, who claims that he prayed for our son. We got mails from churches from Africa, Europe, Australia, China... all over the world, a truckload of churches prayed. We took our son to a church where several thousand hard-core believing Christians prayed (and I believed too) for a miracle... that was 11 years ago. We roughly estimated the number of Christians praying for a miracle to be about 20,000. So what are you saying? I didn't have faith enough? How assholish of you. I believed. Other people believed. You believe right now, but you think that my unbelief is stronger than your belief, don't you? See the power of unbelief. I can throw your God to the ground, even if you assemble all the worlds Christians to pray. I only need to unbelive in God, and he can't do shit. Wow.

 

So I'm still waiting. God is either powerful, or he's not.

 

Are you ready to un-believe? Your God has done nothing.

 

My son has been facing death several times, and what pulled him through was persistence and knowledge from my wife that made sure he got the best doctors and best treatments, and it got him through. Without my wife (his mom), he would be dead. God didn't do anything.

 

SO HOW ABOUT IT? PRAY TO GOD. YOU ARE THE BELIEVER. I AM THE ONE YOU HAVE TO CONVINCE. SO YOU PRAY. AND I WAIT FOR THE MIRACLE. WHEN IT COMES, THEN I WILL BE READY TO BELIEVE. BUT MIRACLE FIRST. NO CHEATING.

 

---

 

The whole thing of "believe first, miracle later" is such a cop-out. You use that approach just because you know deep down in your heart that God won't answer your prayers. It's just the same trick as con artists use when they sell snake oil. You have to believe for it to work. Yeah, right.

 

According to all the other 100s of stories in the Bible, no one had to believe for it to work. The prophets got fire from heaven, and divided the sea, even when unbelievers were abundant. God's power (if he exists) is proven in God's actions, not in gullible people's beliefs.

 

You're gullible and fooled. You think your God exists, but you know he won't answer you. You know there's no miracle. So you hide behind "belief first" arguments. How silly. How dumb. How cowardly.

 

Chicken.

[the stranger]

Is this the core reason that you lost faith in God?

[Ouroboros]

Is this the core reason that you lost faith in God?

It's definitely part of it.

 

For 10 years I saw no change. I saw that the only miracle we had was our own actions and our own efforts.

 

I started to doubt, but I held on to faith. But the doubt got stronger. I prayed, read the Bible, went to church, asked God for more faith. Until one day, I stood in front of the mirror and realized that I didn't know if God existed or not. I had never seen or experienced God in anything. So I asked God to give me any kind of sign of his existence. Whatever he chose would do, as long as I could recognize it as a sign from him. I never saw anything. I have still not seen anything. Nothing.

 

And don't come and tell me another cheap answer like God is doing miracles in the small things and we have to look for them. Yeah, like I dropped two pens on the floor and they landed in a cross. That's not a sign. That's dumb. Beyond dumb.

 

It has to be recognizable. And my son walking again, that would be a supernatural sign.

 

So how about it? The prophets in the Old Testament didn't back down to prove God's existence, so why do you? Why do you just blabber? I'm convinced by action, not words.

 

Don't pull anymore of those cheap parlor tricks done by conmen. It doesn't impress me, but rather proves to me how unfounded your faith is. Con artists bug me. I hate people who trick and deceive other people only to push their product (faith) on others. And that's what you're doing. If you really don't believe, then don't tell me you know your right or your faith is true. If you claim it's true, then prove it. No more words. Prove it for real.

 

But I'm certain you can't. My unbelief is stronger than your belief. A trillion times stronger. Do you take on the challenge?

[ilovemybrain]

 

DO YOU BELIEVE? CAN YOU BELIEVE? ARE YOU WILLING TO ASK JESUS TO HELP YOU BELIEVE?

 

1)No. (hence the site name EX-christians)

2)Not unless there's evidence, and then we wouldn't have to believe it, we'd know it.

3)Been there, done that, for years, most of us.

AND 4)

 

DO YOU HAVE EYES? CAN YOU READ? ARE YOU WILLING TO ADMIT YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING, LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE, AND TRUST YOUR GOD TO CHANGE US HIMSELF IF HE'S REAL?

[the stranger]

You are right, faith is given by God. So is salvation. But what if we do not accept it?

 

You said you had faith, and I believe you, but here is my question.

 

All of your hope, dreams, and answers to your prayers rested truly on one request, did it not? Yes, I know, you asked God to prove Himself in any way that He wanted as long as it was certain proof. What was you hoping to see?

 

Truly I understand your son (next to your wife) is the most important thing in your life, and I am not bringing this topic up lightly.

 

In my own life, God has never shown Himself in ways the average Joe would say "WOW", but He has shown Himself real to me in many more quiet measures, through songs, clouds that looked just like a cross, a thunderstorm, but most often, the still quiet voice inside my heart. It is what calls me, and what beckins me. I have not been healed, but I know He heals, I have not become rich, but I know He supplies abundantly.

 

I am asking, one last time, if you will reach out to God on this. God does supply all of the faith that we have, but we have to want it and accept it. Please do not think I have not gone through things that I cannot relate to you on.

 

I believe often that God does not answer our prayers the way we would like Him to, and perhaps He will never heal me, but I believe, because I feel so deeply, that you will see a miracle you are hoping for. If this does not happen, you can call God and me a liar forever, and when you see Him face to face, you can point right to me, and I will take the hit. I am putting everything on the line myself, as did all of the great miracle workers of the bible. How foolish they would have looked if God would have not came through.

 

I cannot tell you when, and or how at this time. My prayers are no better than yours (and in fact, yours concerning this are much more powerful than mine at this time) and they are certainly no better than the 20,000 you had praying for you, your wife and your son.

 

I believe that God has a time table for all of us, as well as any miracles that he decides to do. I believe the time is now on your side.

 

I am stepping out in faith on this one, because I feel convicted to do so. Is it the Holy Spirit? I certainly believe so. Will you step out in faith with me?

 

(just this one last time?)

[Guest I Love Dog]

You are right, faith is given by God. So is salvation. But what if we do not accept it?

 

I am stepping out in faith on this one, because I feel convicted to do so. Is it the Holy Spirit? I certainly believe so. Will you step out in faith with me?

 

(just this one last time?)

 

Salvation is a Christian invention. It is a disgusting and abhorrent concept that we need saving from something that is invented and promulgated by people with vested interests.

 

Christianity is a foul and unacceptable concept to anyone with at least a shred of humanity in their body.

 

If you believe that it is acceptable to tell your darling, beautiful, wonderful children conceived out of love that they are "sinners", then you need to take leave of the human race.

 

My faith is in the thought that Christianity will die the death of so many other religions and that you and people who believe like you will become full and proper humans.

 

Your religion is disgusting. No apologies.

[Darklady]

You are right, faith is given by God. So is salvation. But what if we do not accept it?

 

You said you had faith, and I believe you, but here is my question.

 

All of your hope, dreams, and answers to your prayers rested truly on one request, did it not? Yes, I know, you asked God to prove Himself in any way that He wanted as long as it was certain proof. What was you hoping to see?

 

Truly I understand your son (next to your wife) is the most important thing in your life, and I am not bringing this topic up lightly.

 

In my own life, God has never shown Himself in ways the average Joe would say "WOW", but He has shown Himself real to me in many more quiet measures, through songs, clouds that looked just like a cross, a thunderstorm, but most often, the still quiet voice inside my heart. It is what calls me, and what beckins me. I have not been healed, but I know He heals, I have not become rich, but I know He supplies abundantly.

 

I am asking, one last time, if you will reach out to God on this. God does supply all of the faith that we have, but we have to want it and accept it. Please do not think I have not gone through things that I cannot relate to you on.

 

I believe often that God does not answer our prayers the way we would like Him to, and perhaps He will never heal me, but I believe, because I feel so deeply, that you will see a miracle you are hoping for. If this does not happen, you can call God and me a liar forever, and when you see Him face to face, you can point right to me, and I will take the hit. I am putting everything on the line myself, as did all of the great miracle workers of the bible. How foolish they would have looked if God would have not came through.

 

I cannot tell you when, and or how at this time. My prayers are no better than yours (and in fact, yours concerning this are much more powerful than mine at this time) and they are certainly no better than the 20,000 you had praying for you, your wife and your son.

 

I believe that God has a time table for all of us, as well as any miracles that he decides to do. I believe the time is now on your side.

 

I am stepping out in faith on this one, because I feel convicted to do so. Is it the Holy Spirit? I certainly believe so. Will you step out in faith with me?

 

(just this one last time?)

 

How can you come here and say these things? Have you no compassion? I am just completely gob-smacked by this post.

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

 

Thumbelina: A lot of the calamities are from Satan but God ALLOWS everything for a purpose. Also, God can send judgments too, I'm not gonna lie.

 

You may not feel that you are lying, but you are if you can't prove what you say. Show some proof or stop spreading malicious propaganda. The only "judgement" is within yourself. There is no invisible, invented being to judge anyone. Be responsible for your own life.

 

There is no Satan, unless you can prove it. I see no evidence.

 

There is no god, unless you can prove it. I see no evidence.

 

You think like a child, believing in Santa and Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and god, devils, demons and Satan.

 

Grow up, Thumbelina, your namesake was about 10 or 11 and you think like she did. Shrug off your indoctrination and become a proper human being.

[Deva]

How can you come here and say these things? Have you no compassion? I am just completely gob-smacked by this post.

 

Me too. Its a great example of how Christians seem to have no empathy or compassion for other people - especially non-Christians. I think that Christians view non-Christians as somehow less than human. Geez Stranger, you can't possibly believe you can totally relate to Hans' situation unless in fact you have experienced something similar.

[Ouroboros]

All of your hope, dreams, and answers to your prayers rested truly on one request, did it not?

One request? Nope.

 

Multiple times and for multiple other things as well. Let's say we prayed a couple of thousand times. And probably for a few hundred other things and events around this whole situation.

 

He was not the only one injured in the accident. My wife, my two other sons, my oldest daughter, but also many other things the ensued related to the event that complicated our lives hundredfold.

 

Each time, we had the need of God's superpowers in one way or the other, and prayer never worked. Every time the answer from God was: no. (Or rather... silence.) The whole family lost faith in God. My wife, my kids, and I all lost our faith.

 

And you keep on trying to put the blame on us instead of realizing that God did not answer to any requests or prayers. We did what we were supposed to do.

 

Yes, I know, you asked God to prove Himself in any way that He wanted as long as it was certain proof. What was you hoping to see?

Anything that was obvious supernatural in nature and was related to the Christian God.

 

Truly I understand your son (next to your wife) is the most important thing in your life, and I am not bringing this topic up lightly.

And my other kids and pain to see them injured as well.

 

The worst part was that I was not in the accident. I had to stand on the sidelines, without any pain or injury, and see them suffer and fight for their lives.

 

In my own life, God has never shown Himself in ways the average Joe would say "WOW", but He has shown Himself real to me in many more quiet measures, through songs, clouds that looked just like a cross, a thunderstorm, but most often, the still quiet voice inside my heart. It is what calls me, and what beckins me. I have not been healed, but I know He heals, I have not become rich, but I know He supplies abundantly.

Those things only proves the randomness of nature. Those are stupid, silly things. They don't prove God. They prove nothing.

 

Once I drove by a tree that had Christmas lights in it, and suddenly, from a certain angle, the tree looked very similar to a large orc face (you know, orch from the Lord of The Ring movie). So what does it prove? That God wanted me to believe orch are real?

 

This is just another attempt of you for a cop-out. Oh, look, a miracle! My dog sneezed! Oh, wow, another supernatural event occurred here, my sons drop started to beep at 4 AM so I had to get up, even though I need my sleep for the finals tomorrow. Do you think God is trying to show me how much he loves me by destroying my chances of succeeding on the test? Cool. God loves me so much that he hates what I'm doing. I get it!!! ... (I was sarcastic, if you don't get the tone in the last paragraph.)

 

I am asking, one last time, if you will reach out to God on this. God does supply all of the faith that we have, but we have to want it and accept it. Please do not think I have not gone through things that I cannot relate to you on.

I have done that as a favor to about 10 different Christians visiting this website in the last five years. It didn't work any single one of the times. I prayed, no answer, no feeling, no faith. I just don't believe in your God. I believe just as little in your God as I believe in Santa Claus. Have you ever tried to make yourself believe in Santa Claus? Did it work?

 

I believe often that God does not answer our prayers the way we would like Him to, and perhaps He will never heal me, but I believe, because I feel so deeply, that you will see a miracle you are hoping for. If this does not happen, you can call God and me a liar forever, and when you see Him face to face, you can point right to me, and I will take the hit. I am putting everything on the line myself, as did all of the great miracle workers of the bible. How foolish they would have looked if God would have not came through.

I just haven't seen God do anything or answer anything. The sum of God's activity in my life comes up to the whooping high number of ZERO. He could at least do something. Why is all answers always "no"? According to the Bible, signs and wonders are supposed to follow those who believe, and I believed that for 30 years of my life, and for 10 years of those 30, I needed to see something at least once. There never were any double foot prints in the sand, but only one set of prints, and it was from my own two feet.

 

I cannot tell you when, and or how at this time. My prayers are no better than yours (and in fact, yours concerning this are much more powerful than mine at this time) and they are certainly no better than the 20,000 you had praying for you, your wife and your son.

 

I believe that God has a time table for all of us, as well as any miracles that he decides to do. I believe the time is now on your side.

Oh, really? Now? The miracle will happen now? Cool.

 

I am stepping out in faith on this one, because I feel convicted to do so. Is it the Holy Spirit? I certainly believe so. Will you step out in faith with me?

 

(just this one last time?)

Ok. So I will pray now.

 

Here was my prayer, and I prayed in Swedish because I'm most comfortable with that:

 

"Gud, om du existerar, hela min son nu."

 

And I will go up, right now to my son's bedroom, and check if his legs and scoliosis are healed, and if his micki tube and colostomy bags are gone. I'll make a new post for you with the results. Back in a few seconds...

[Ouroboros]

Okay. I checked. He's sleeping so I can't check everything, but he has the colostomy bag still, it didn't fall off. I'll know more tomorrow. (/serious)

 

(sarcasm)

Oh, I saw a miracle. My little dog peed on the floor and I stepped in it, gross. Glory, it must be sign form God. And when I went upstairs to check on my son, the dog ran up and in to our bedroom. My wife is still sleeping, it's 5 AM after all and I need my rest. So I had to try to track the dog down in the dark and get her out of the room. It must be God helping me get some extra rest, by running around and having problems in the middle of the night, before my big calculus test tomorrow. Amen! Now I'm taking a gulp of water, it must be another sign from God.

(/sarcasm)

 

(Did you get the sarcasm above? Basically, I didn't get a good night sleep because of stupid things happening at night. Today I need to be alert because I have finals. Things like this happens to me, and if you prayed and God cared, why would he allow something like this? Should I see this as a sign from God that he doesn't want me to study? Things like this happened years when I was working too. Was that a sign that God didn't want me to work? What does God want? He's just giving me signs that he likes to ruin my life!)

 

--- edit ---

 

Ok. It's 1:58 PM now.

 

My son just came back from physical therapy. No change.

 

So Stranger, when will it happen?

[Ouroboros]

How can you come here and say these things? Have you no compassion? I am just completely gob-smacked by this post.

It's just the typical Christian showing his "sensitive" and "loving" side. Nothing new.

 

They hate the sin and hate people more, just like their God.

[Ouroboros]

 

 

Thumbelina: A lot of the calamities are from Satan but God ALLOWS everything for a purpose. Also, God can send judgments too, I'm not gonna lie.

 

You may not feel that you are lying, but you are if you can't prove what you say. Show some proof or stop spreading malicious propaganda. The only "judgement" is within yourself. There is no invisible, invented being to judge anyone. Be responsible for your own life.

 

There is no Satan, unless you can prove it. I see no evidence.

 

There is no god, unless you can prove it. I see no evidence.

 

You think like a child, believing in Santa and Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and god, devils, demons and Satan.

 

Grow up, Thumbelina, your namesake was about 10 or 11 and you think like she did. Shrug off your indoctrination and become a proper human being.

The whole notion of "Satan do bad things and God allows it, but God does good things and Satan can't prevent it" is such a perfect setup of describing random events and normal reality where things just happens for no reason. "I rolled a six! Yay! God did it. I rolled a one! Shit! Satan did it."

[Darklady]

How can you come here and say these things? Have you no compassion? I am just completely gob-smacked by this post.

It's just the typical Christian showing his "sensitive" and "loving" side. Nothing new.

 

They hate the sin and hate people more, just like their God.

 

Ouroboros - I don't usually jump into conversations that are directed at other people, but I know what it is like to pray for something so important that it consumes your life for years and years, then realise that you have been wasting your time, and how heart broken that can leave you. then to have some idiot post something like that, I was completely taken aback.

I hope your exam went well, and you son gets all the continuing medical care he needs.