Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Antlerman]

 

Ya got me on my own info, Antlerhead! No more allowing me to play jokes on myself!!

 

(read your research, stranger)

 

I'm gonna be thinking a while about that one. I ain't done with you yet, Antlerhead!! LOL

...

 

 

In my almost completely wasted afternoon, I did find this story that was kind of cool, but again, it isn't really relivent to the discussion.

There's a reason I go easy on you. You're learning at your pace. I don't think you've wasted your time. There's a lesson to be learned. And the moral of the story is..........

 

when you look for evidence in the forms of miracle proofs to support something that is a matter of faith, you will fail.....

 

 

ponder that lesson and when you're ready.....

[Ouroboros]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

(same site -- same page)

 

Godbeliever Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm

 

How is ti possible you do not understand? This is not an april first joke! Even little Angie warned us about that! They would not have wrote that if it was a joke! Do you understand now?! She was really healed!

 

Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!

 

Sincerely yours,

Godbeliever

 

Ivy Dripp Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

 

Angie O’Plasty is my friend, this actually happened! Minister Wilma Leggrowbach and Father Wayne Kerr at our church prayed for her. Pat Myckok from Fox News did a story on it later that day.

 

 

Ok. Sorry, but... well. The others have explained it to you and I think you understand. "Ivy Dripp" is such an obvious one. It's the kind of puns I torture my kids with on a daily basis.

 

I can probably can come up with some on my own:

 

Ms Diagnose

Mickey Tube

Gene Hox

[Antlerman]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

(same site -- same page)

 

Godbeliever Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm

 

How is ti possible you do not understand? This is not an april first joke! Even little Angie warned us about that! They would not have wrote that if it was a joke! Do you understand now?! She was really healed!

 

Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!

 

Sincerely yours,

Godbeliever

 

Ivy Dripp Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

 

Angie O’Plasty is my friend, this actually happened! Minister Wilma Leggrowbach and Father Wayne Kerr at our church prayed for her. Pat Myckok from Fox News did a story on it later that day.

 

 

Ok. Sorry, but... well. The others have explained it to you and I think you understand. "Ivy Dripp" is such an obvious one. It's the kind of puns I torture my kids with on a daily basis.

 

I can probably can come up with some on my own:

 

Ms Diagnose

Mickey Tube

Gene Hox

OMG, I just looked at these other ones above:

 

Minister Wilma Leggrowbach = Minister Will my leg grow back?

Father Wayne Kerr = Father Wanker (penis joke)

Pat Myckok = Pat My Cock (that's pretty obvious)

 

These are really great!

 

 

So, I think at least we've made some headway here. Next, to show how Creationism is just as big a joke as these.. Too funny

[Ouroboros]

So, I think at least we've made some headway here. Next, to show how Creationism is just as big a joke as these.. Too funny

Here's a very clever one from "The IT Crowd": Peter File.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Cits, I will get to the rest later, but there is one question that really stuck out.

 

If the Holy Spirit works in you, then perhaps you can answer this: Why won't God heal amputees?

 

Every time we hear of a so-called healing, it's always either something that could happen naturally or it's something happening too far away or with too few details given for us to be able to investigate and verify the claim.

 

With the latter, it's easy to see why someone making up stories would do so in a way that you wouldn't likely find out the truth. With the former, cancer going into remission or pain lessening can seem to be an answer to prayer, but those very things can and do also happen naturally.

 

So again, why won't God heal amputees? Arms and legs don't naturally grow back, and God doesn't heal them either. Does this mean that the only miracles God can perform are things that can also happen naturally? How does this prove that such miracles are actually happening? Could it be that all so-called "miracles" are purely natural events?

 

Check this out: http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

First, in the bible He has.

 

Luke 22:50-51 (New International Version, ©2010)

 

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

 

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

 

Matthew 12:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)

 

12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

 

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.

 

While I'm not really surprised that you started by quoting the Bible, I'm left scratching my head and wondering, Why?

 

First, you know that I'm quite familiar with the Bible, so it should have been obvious to you that there's a good chance that I already knew about these tales (which I did), so they're nothing new to me.

 

Second, it's already been detailed in these threads you've been in that there are serious problems with the Bible that render it unreliable as a source of information. You have utterly failed to answer these problems. Oh, you've replied to some, but you haven't given actual answers to them. At the very least, you should know that we skeptics don't take the Bible seriously, and thus such quotes would be futile.

 

Third, I specifically stated in a previous post that I was looking for things that are verifiable and provable, and there is nothing that is verifiable or provable about supernatural tales that are nearly two millennia old.

 

So, why did you bother bringing up these mythological accounts?

 

Secondly, this does still happen among told life happenings.

 

I saw a young man that had been hit by a car and due to the accident his right leg was shorter than his left by about three inches. I saw it grow out to the same length as the other one. I also had the same miracle, even though mine was not too much shorter. Jesus died so that we could receive any healing that we needed.

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080506092511AAQB09G

 

First, there is nothing verifiable or provable about this. It gives no names or addresses. It's just an anonymous claim on some religious message board. Whoop-de-do. I'm sure that if I searched a little bit, I could probably find a Muslim board where users claim that Allah performed miracles that confirm Islam, but would you find that to be proof of Islam?

 

Second, "faith healers" can easily give the illusion of legs or arms being extended a little bit just by shifting the body a little bit. It's slight-of-hand, and it's rather simple to do. This could very well be the same sort of thing.

 

God DOES heal amputees - Today's Christian Videos

 

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=77KG7NNX

 

That's a lengthy video, I'll have to get back to it when I've got more time.

 

April 1st: Well folks, it looks like we were wrong. There really is a God after all, or at least some ‘thing’ up there that heals and answers prayers. Young Angie O’Plasty was a documented amputee after a freak airplane accident that left her two legs less. Keyword being ‘was’ an amputee because yesterday morning she woke up to a very pleasant surprise, an itchy toe. Angie had miraculously discovered she had two full legs again.

 

“The night before we held a prayer service at our church and we all laid hands on Angie, we asked that God would show mercy on our child and heal her to finally prove that he really is a merciful and loving God” said Angie’s mother.

 

http://atheistbus.ca/2009/04/01/god-heals-amputee-first-ever-to-be-recorded-by-doctors/

 

LOL!

 

As others have pointed out, in your overzealous haste to find support for your view, you fell for an obvious April Fools joke.

 

Thirdly, the main reason for miracles was to reveal Himself to others so that they would believe. Many disciples in the NT had physical problems but were never healed despite being prayed over.

 

 

Fourthly, it should be noted that if He created you and me out of dust, restored vision to the blind, and has made cancer get up and out of many Christians despite a death sentence from doctors, and risen the dead back to life that than certainly, if His word is true, He can heal amputees.

 

Back to usng the Bible? See my first comments in this post again. You obviously don't have much to go on, do you?

 

Bottom line: Your assumption is wrong. LOL

 

I still haven't watched the video, but out of the rest of what you've offered, the bottom line still seems to indicate that it's your assumption that is wrong. You're definitely grasping at straws.

[★ Citsonga ★]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

(same site -- same page)

 

Godbeliever Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm

 

How is ti possible you do not understand? This is not an april first joke! Even little Angie warned us about that! They would not have wrote that if it was a joke! Do you understand now?! She was really healed!

 

Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!

 

Sincerely yours,

Godbeliever

 

Ivy Dripp Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

 

Angie O’Plasty is my friend, this actually happened! Minister Wilma Leggrowbach and Father Wayne Kerr at our church prayed for her. Pat Myckok from Fox News did a story on it later that day.

 

Now THAT'S funny! You're so incredibly desperate for evidence that even after it's shown to you that you fell for an obvious April Fools joke, you still don't want to let go of it.

 

What do you think this tells us about your standards for evidence?

 

Truth being, I can find little evidence of stories of amputees being healed

 

Perhaps there's a good reason why there's no real evidence of amputee healing. Hmmmm….

 

Gotta get to work. Take care, man.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

 

 

We have sinful tendencies, have you ever seen babies? Awww, what cute little SAVAGES!

 

God won't burn any though their carnal nature is inherent, they don't know what they are doing; they need to be trained.

 

...so, babies SHOULD be burned but 'god' won't do it. Sorry, I have yet to see a savage baby.

 

 

No, some religions teach that babies will be in hell. I recently heard a preacher say that he had to comfort a couple who lost their baby before the child can be baptized and the people from the church that the couple went to, said that their baby would be in hell or some thing like that so they cannot do the funeral there. That is not biblical AT ALL. Before a person is baptized they must be taught and then they must repent ----> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

Can a baby understand if you preach to him/her? Can a baby repent from his/her selfish ways?

 

God winks at ignorance "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30. Babies are ignorant but they are not perfect, they have the selfish sin nature and tendencies. With the right environment and training they can do fine. I believe that babies who will be in heaven will be perfect; but of course, there will be no more sin.

 

Parents are RESPONSIBLE for their children; when Moses did not circumcise his son, God did not seek to kill the child for disobedience but HE sought to kill Moses, the one in charge. Moses was supposed to dedicate the child to God.

 

Babies are virtual savages, their goal is self preservation, they basically only care about their own self. They have base passions; children love to say "MINE!!!!" they have to be taught to share but that's it, they can be taught

[Thumbelina]

they choose Satan

 

very few people choose 'satan' - satan is part of the Xtian mythology and goes out the window with the rest of it. even most 'satanists' are really just atheistic hedonists for whom 'satan' is merely a symbol - they don't believe in a literal satan any more than they believe in a literal god.

 

 

Christianity is not myth. Yes, a lot of people are deceived and think that Satan does not exist; that's exactly what he wants. The veil between the natural and the supernatural will be raised MORE (currently, people do see supernatural things) in the latter times and he will deceive a lot of people. He will impersonate Christ; he is terribly jealous of Jesus. Have you ever had someone be jealous of you and who imitated you in order to compete with you and the person was quite conniving? That can be so annoying or even dangerous. A lot of those kids that are reported missing, who vanished without a trace, a lot of them were sacrificed by satanists. Former satanists admit that these things do go on; one even said that they cannot do anything with the kids that are prayed for. There is a lot of evil out there.

[Thumbelina]

Aman, I'll catch you later.

[Galien]

 

 

Christianity is not myth. Yes, a lot of people are deceived and think that Satan does not exist; that's exactly what he wants. The veil between the natural and the supernatural will be raised MORE (currently, people do see supernatural things) in the latter times and he will deceive a lot of people. He will impersonate Christ; he is terribly jealous of Jesus. Have you ever had someone be jealous of you and who imitated you in order to compete with you and the person was quite conniving? That can be so annoying or even dangerous. A lot of those kids that are reported missing, who vanished without a trace, a lot of them were sacrificed by satanists. Former satanists admit that these things do go on; one even said that they cannot do anything with the kids that are prayed for. There is a lot of evil out there.

 

 

Yes there is a lot of evil out there and some of it is in the church. Some Satantists fuck up peoples lives behind closed doors, the church destroys young people's lives and minds in the open, and no one bats an eyelid except ex christians who leave the church sometimes because they are sick and tired of watching lives and mind destroyed by the bullshit that is christianity. And girly don't bother telling me it isn't true, I sat there and watched it for 36 years.

[Antlerman]

No, some religions teach that babies will be in hell.

Some religions, like Christianity for instance? Do you know of any other religion besides Christianity that teaches this?

 

I recently heard a preacher say that he had to comfort a couple who lost their baby before the child can be baptized and the people from the church that the couple went to, said that their baby would be in hell or some thing like that so they cannot do the funeral there.

That's foul and heartless, the epitome of religiousness over spirituality! Imagine going to someone and telling them their grandparents are in hell burning right now because they didn't convert to Christianity, or their adult child, or the baby, or their wife, or....

 

Oh wait, you believe all that stuff. And how are you any better? Because you say they are adults and should know? How like infants we are in our understanding of the Universe, not a whole lot more than that infant in the grand scheme of things, and yet, you feel it's just OK to send adults to hell, but not babies. I don't send you there, and your understanding in frankly infantile. If I believed in an anthropomorphic sky-god like you do, "he" or "she" would be much bigger than yours and not send you to hell for your child-level ignorance. He/She would want you to grow up, and not condemn you for being ignorant and foolish.

 

How come your god thinks humans have it together enough to be judged by an Infinite Mind? That's really messed up there Thumbo, wouldn't you say?

 

That is not biblical AT ALL.

It's as Biblical to them as your Biblical beliefs are. Same book, different interpreters. Equally as infantile and offense to Spirit.

 

Before a person is baptized they must be taught and then they must repent ----> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

Can a baby understand if you preach to him/her? Can a baby repent from his/her selfish ways?

Can you? Have you?

 

BTW, do you know that being selfish is normal and healthy and necessary for a child growing up? Maturity is growth into others in a lessening of yourself as center of the world. Now, I do take special note that you rejoice madly about how YOU are Saved! How YOU are going to Heaven! How YOU, YOU, YOU............ condemn OTHERS not like YOU. Selfish? Immature? Infantile.

 

God winks at ignorance "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30. Babies are ignorant but they are not perfect, they have the selfish sin nature and tendencies.

Oh, that's rich! Babies are sinful because they haven't developed mature egos yet and want a breast to feed them, unable to recognize themselves as individuals yet! Sinners! Ludicrous.

 

I believe that babies who will be in heaven will be perfect; but of course, there will be no more sin.

Yes, there will be little babies crawling on all fours in heaven, with fully developed minds and egos expressing deep philanthropic ways towards others, caring, showing empathy, expressing shared emotions... discussing philosophy, composing music, reciting poetry etc. Unlike us though, they'll be cuter, little butterballs of eternal joy! Coochee Choochee cooo......

 

Add a new chapter to your book Angie and the House Elf.

 

You are incredibly silly in your thoughts.

 

Parents are RESPONSIBLE for their children; when Moses did not circumcise his son, God did not seek to kill the child for disobedience but HE sought to kill Moses, the one in charge. Moses was supposed to dedicate the child to God.

Wow, better be a good parent or God will try to KILL you! Yikes! And you worship that?

 

Babies are virtual savages, their goal is self preservation, they basically only care about their own self.

Babies are natural in their development. You are ignorant beyond ignorant. It's when they become and adult and act that way that's the problem. That shows a developmental retardation, thinking only of yourself and YOUR salvation, your religion, your beliefs, your ways of things, you, you, you.....

 

They have base passions; children love to say "MINE!!!!" they have to be taught to share but that's it, they can be taught

Just as you need to grow out of your spiritual infancy by others pointing out how lacking you are. (If only you could listen, removing the cotton balls of selected Bible verses you have stuffed in your ears). And hopefully we never imagine we have arrived, telling ourselves such things as "I have Jesus, and Jesus makes me perfect!"

 

By their fruits you shall know them.

[Ouroboros]

No, some religions teach that babies will be in hell.

Some religions, like Christianity for instance? Do you know of any other religion besides Christianity that teaches this?

So true, so true.

 

Hell is only taught in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism (as far as I know). So which other "religion" would teach that babies will go to Hell? I'm not sure Islam or Judaism really teaches that, but I know some Christians who would teach it.

 

You are incredibly silly in your thoughts.

You're too nice.

 

I think she's being Biblical. You have to be like a child to come into Heaven, and she surely think like a child.

 

God wants to make fools out of the wise and smart people, and the only way to believe in the cross is to become a child in heart and mind... ignorance is bliss. Santa Claus is magical and can do anything, as long as we're not on the naughty list, and we believe really, really, really hard.

[Darklady]

 

 

Christianity is not myth.

 

Which shows just how little you know.

 

xanity is a system, a religious system used mainly to control people.

god, on the other hand is a myth. Jesus, at least the one portrayed in the bible, is also a myth.

If you have factual solid proof that this is not so, show it.

 

Get a education Thumbelina

[bdp]

Babies are ignorant but they are not perfect, they have the selfish sin nature and tendencies.

 

Oh bullshit - babies are blank slates.

[bdp]

Christianity is not myth.

 

Yes it is.

 

a lot of people are deceived and think that Satan does not exist

 

It doesn't.

 

 

Have you ever had someone be jealous of you and who imitated you in order to compete with you

 

Nope - never. Never saw this happen to anyone else either.

[Antlerman]

Christianity is not myth.

True, Christianity is a religion which uses myth.

 

A lot of those kids that are reported missing, who vanished without a trace, a lot of them were sacrificed by satanists.

OMG, That's loopy!

 

You sound like you're straight out of the Salem Witch Trials!

 

The truth is it was Aliens in UFO mistaking them for cattle.

 

Former satanists admit that these things do go on; one even said that they cannot do anything with the kids that are prayed for. There is a lot of evil out there.

[bdp]

Former satanists

 

...like Mike Warnke? Are all 'former satanists' lying bastards like Warnke?

 

btw, ask law enforcement, they'll tell you there's zero evidence for any of this hysterical nonsense.

[Ouroboros]

btw, ask law enforcement, they'll tell you there's zero evidence for any of this hysterical nonsense.

Who needs evidence when you have Jesus?

[Thumbelina]

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

...

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

Have you ever stopped to look beyond the words you use and consider them in a different light? Now I'm not meaning the following to be insulting but to try to provoke some depth of consideration for you. Don't consider me as some 'skeptic', or antagonist in my analogy, I do mean this with respect.

 

If I substitute the words "house elf" for God and "book of magic" for Bible in your paragraph above, and you will see how it reads like you imagine God like some magic-performing elf who spends his existence trying to do things for people. It is exactly the same words, with its main character being a house elf instead of the eternal God. See how perfectly it becomes a child's imagination story about a world of Magic....

 

 

The Story of Angie and Her House Elf

 

"After months of her giving her house elf the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her book of magic and then she told her house elf "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the book of magic down; so there she was, not talking to him or reading the book of magic and yet actively involved in with her spell casting group. Her house elf did not give up on her just like they don't not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer relationship with her house elf, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in her relationship with him."

 

Now my point is to show how you imagine God like a child imagines creatures of special magic in the world, doing things behind the scenes all centered on the individual they belong to. You interpret events and motivations of others and yourself as all being orchestrated by this powerful creature of magic. It is very clear in your words this is how you imagine God. A God who places you as the center of his special activities. You are the center.

 

.....

 

 

With all due respect but *raised eyebrow* to you Aman.

 

Ah, the usual atheistic pastime of taking texts out of contexts and forming pretexts so they can "disprove" the bible but you overlooked verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 13

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I ADMIT that I and every other believer need to do what is contained in Corinthians 13 but to admit needs and wrongs is the majority of the solution for God to work with us.

 

1. I am not an atheist.

 

2. I took your words, not the Bible's and I simply substituted the main character and objects. They are your words, just simply saying House Elf instead of God.

 

But that you should respond in an attack, falsely trying to label me an atheist, and secondly not facing the fact that these were your words and there was no twisting at all going on, shows to me you can't see beyond your Magic ideas about God and just blotted them out from what was presented directly to you.

 

As far as 1 Cor 13 goes, I quote that verse all the time in reference to those who imagine God is some sort of magic-doing house elf as you just described in your paragraph above. If in fact you admit to see through a glass darkly now (i.e. a child's imagination), then how is it you can call me such silliness as "New Age" and whatnot which you will do here shortly? You simply don't understand, seeing through a glass darkly as a child....

 

Seems to me you are describing some type of New Age philosophy.

Nope. New Age is basically experimental Christianity, dabbling in new objects of faith, but essentially no real transforming understanding of the whole. It's not a bad thing to try to step beyond, but the focus on "self", the "me and my salvation", focus of it is just as it is for the narcissistic Christian. "God blessed me today! He's opening doors for me, I'm so glad he loves me.", sort of focus on me, like your story of the house elf....

 

New Age, Wicca, Hinduism, occultism, stoicism, Buddhism, atheism, spiritualism etc.(all those dang isms are causing schisms between God and man, including those schisms within Christianity ) are basically the same thing, all think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers *shakes head* No dice Aman, the Word is as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

You're way out of your league, lumping all these things (which would of necessity include Christianity as well), into a big pile and saying it's one thing. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just spewing forth ignorance rather than trying to listen and understand from a sincere heart.

 

I in fact accept the Perennial Philosophy which recognizes an underlying commonality in all religious pursuits, which includes Christianity, but it is not so trite and self-centered as you say it is. It's not about "their" untapped powers in some narcissistic universe centered around them (which you express in your religious thought), but rather to transform beyond themselves into a self-less connection with the Divine. Absolute Unity with God, or Brahman, or Atman.

 

However... that you state it the way you do as being a self-centered, ego-stroking sort of enterprise, I hear you taking your narcissistic religious focus and making these others evil competitors to yours in your pursuit of "being right", validating your particular project you use as a substitute for real spiritual existence - beyond your narcissistic self.

 

As I said, you are out of your element, but you do expose what you are. A child, imaging God as some gift-giving Magic that has you as the focus of his purpose in Being. The only thing I'm interested in is Being itself. Not becoming "a god", but becoming God - not in some sort of "Big Me!" possessing all power sort of narcissistic ME!, but to be the fullness, that fulfillment of Being Itself in me and through me as That, not me.

 

This is not your religious mindset, as you have no understanding of what that is, even though I could point you to that within your own texts you call a Light to you feet (you have but a pen light one millimeter in front of your toes with your eyes focused on the ground in front of you, and only you). It is there in all religions. Transformation into union with Godhead.

 

If you want to have a serious discussion with me about this I'm willing, but I need to hear a little humility in you, showing your interest in being more than remaining an infant. God is not a house elf, and the Universe is not about you.

 

 

I already started this conversation so ...

 

 

Aman: 1. I am not an atheist.

 

Thumbelina: Whew, good, that's the worst religion that ol' Luci came up with.

 

Aman: 2. I took your words, not the Bible's and I simply substituted the main character and objects. They are your words, just simply saying House Elf instead of God.

 

But that you should respond in an attack, falsely trying to label me an atheist, and secondly not facing the fact that these were your words and there was no twisting at all going on, shows to me you can't see beyond your Magic ideas about God and just blotted them out from what was presented directly to you.

 

Thumbelina: How did I attack you? How is calling your behavior atheistic an attack? I did not call you an atheist.

You keep missing my point, I perceived you as being sacrilegious. Also, virtually no one appeals to a house elf in times of trouble and virtually no one forms forums that keep talking and talking and talking and talking infinitely it woud seem, about a house elf but there is A LOT of forums about God, The Creator.

 

We disagree on this that's all.

 

Aman: As far as 1 Cor 13 goes, I quote that verse all the time in reference to those who imagine God is some sort of magic-doing house elf as you just described in your paragraph above. If in fact you admit to see through a glass darkly now (i.e. a child's imagination), then how is it you can call me such silliness as "New Age" and whatnot which you will do here shortly? You simply don't understand, seeing through a glass darkly as a child....

 

 

Thumbelina: You are interpreting that text the way you see it and that is not what it means at all. God inspired Paul to communicate that more of His (God's) character would be revealed when we are glorified, in our mortal bodies we will still have a somewhat imperfect knowledge of Him. Did I call you New Age? Your philosophies seemed New Age-like IMO.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Seems to me you are describing some type of New Age philosophy.

 

 

 

Aman: Nope. New Age is basically experimental Christianity, dabbling in new objects of faith, but essentially no real transforming understanding of the whole. It's not a bad thing to try to step beyond, but the focus on "self", the "me and my salvation", focus of it is just as it is for the narcissistic Christian. "Oooh, God blessed me today!", sort of focus, like your story of the house elf....

 

Thumbelina: New Age is spiritualism and it is not uncommon for ol' Luci' (Lucifer) to use the name of Christ in his doctrines when it suits his purpose; d'uh, if he comes as himself most people would run from him. Satan likes to mingle some truth with error and that renders it a lie. The Christian God is a selfless God, He became like one of us in order to take our place. Christianity teaches one to love ones enemies and to care for their fellow man. The bible teaches that it is good to give God thanks, during the good times and during the bad times too. Giving thanks keeps one humble and prevents one from getting "Nebuchadnezzar disease", you know? look what I did and look who I command. Being grateful shows us where and who we are in the grand scheme of things, i.e. created beings. Christianity is not narcissistic, though some of its proponents may behave that way but they won't be following Christ.

 

 

Thumbelina said: New Age, Wicca, Hinduism, occultism, stoicism, Buddhism, atheism, spiritualism etc.(all those dang isms are causing schisms between God and man, including those schisms within Christianity ) are basically the same thing, all think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers *shakes head* No dice Aman, the Word is as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

 

 

 

Aman: You're way out of your league, lumping all these things (which would of necessity include Christianity as well), into a big pile and saying it's one thing. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just spewing forth ignorance rather than trying to listen and understand from a sincere heart.

 

Thumbelina: The bible is my guide and none of the above philosophies encapsulates Solo Christo, sola scriptura, sola fide and sola gratia. Those philosophies are intertwined and tweaked to the preferences of the particular people groups. I did include Christianity, look again, I highlighted it in red. A human cannot judge the heart of another human; that is God's prerogative.We can only look on the outward actions.

 

 

Aman said: I in fact accept the Perennial Philosophy which recognizes an underlying commonality in all religious pursuits, which includes Christianity, but it is not so trite and self-centered as you say it is. It's not about "their" untapped powers in some narcissistic universe centered around them (which you express in your religious thought), but rather to transform beyond themselves into a self-less connection with the Divine. Absolute Unity with God, or Brahman, or Atman.

 

 

Thumbelina: Is Satanism included in there (having something in common with all religious pursuits)? Aman, how did you arrive at your current beliefs and why did you leave Jesus? Do you have a testimony somewhere on this forum?

 

Aman: However... that you state it the way you do as being a self-centered, ego-stroking sort of enterprise, I hear you taking your narcissistic religious focus and making these others evil competitors to yours in your pursuit of "being right", validating your particular project you use as a substitute for real spiritual existence - beyond your narcissistic self.

 

Thumbelina: According to the bible it is self-centered ..., if it's not a thus saith the Lord then it means that people (in some cases it is by default) are making their own reasoning into a god and it leaves them open to be deceived by Old Luci'.

 

 

 

Aman: As I said, you are out of your element, but you do expose what you are. A child, imaging God as some gift-giving Magic that has you as the focus of his purpose in Being. The only thing I'm interested in is Being itself. Not becoming "a god", but becoming God - not in some sort of "Big Me!" possessing all power sort of narcissistic ME!, but to be the fullness, that fulfillment of Being Itself in me and through me as That, not me.

 

Thumbelina: I am a child of The King and I do have His supreme regard but so does everyone; it is only FEW people (compared to the rest of the population) that will take Him at His word, they disbelieve Him and therefore call Him a liar

He says as long as I CHOOSE to come to Him then He WILL complete the work He started in me Phil 1:6. He's sanctifying me by His word which IS truth John 17:17 http://bible.cc/john/17-17.htm

He also says that the believer needs to work out their salvation with fear and trembling but He is the one to perform the transformation and the believer must be willing to let Him do so. Phil 2:12,13

 

 

Aman said: This is not your religion, and you have no idea what that means. Even though I could point you to that within your own texts you call a Light to you feet. It is there in all religions. Transformation into union with Godhead.

 

Thumbelina: Mr., that was an analogy, I said the word is AS a light, it helps the believer spot error.

 

Aman: If you want to have a serious discussion with me about this I'm willing, but I need to hear a little humility in you, showing your interest in being more than happy remaining an infant.

 

Thumbelina: I don't mind discussing different beliefs, people are interesting. You don't like me speaking some of the lingo of the atheists? I only do some of it, for the whole lingo is bad, real bad. If I'm an infant then unbelievers/disbelievers are zygotes, no eyes formed yet Please don't get mad, that is what the bible says, we just are supposed to preach the truth. I do have to work on being tactful but I also need to know when to be spunky too; I need to be balanced.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Thumbelina: No, some religions teach that babies will be in hell.

 

 

Aman: Some religions, like Christianity for instance? Do you know of any other religion besides Christianity that teaches this?

 

Thumbelina: Yeah, some communities of faith within some of Christendom.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I recently heard a preacher say that he had to comfort a couple who lost their baby before the child can be baptized and the people from the church that the couple went to, said that their baby would be in hell or some thing like that so they cannot do the funeral there.

 

 

 

Aman: That's foul and heartless, the epitome of religiousness over spirituality!

 

Thumbelina: We agree on that one. I had a dilemma this year, my friend died and her husband belongs to one of those communities of faith that teaches that a person goes straight to heaven when they die. One day I was talking to him on the phone and he basically said that maybe his wife will know that he took care of her garden and that he could feel her presence. I ended up telling him as gently as I could that his wife is in the grave, awaiting the resurrection and that she cannot see him or anything and that those feelings can be from his own mind or the devils can use his grief to deceive him and make him think his wife is trying to communicate with him. He listened, I don't know if he agrees but he likes talking to me even though we have different beliefs.

 

 

 

 

Aman: Imagine going to someone and telling them their grandparents are in hell burning right now because they didn't convert to Christianity, or their adult child, or the baby, or their wife, or....

 

Oh wait, you believe all that stuff. And how are you any better?

 

Thumbelina: You ASSUME I believe all that stuff. I believe in sola scriptura and the bible says hell does not exist yet and it also says that there are sincere believers from different communities of faith that are following God (the Christian one) without even knowing that they are doing so, it also says that we are not to be judges and condemn individuals. We are to preach the gospel and warn about the consequences of willful disobedience and leave judgment up to God. we are also to EXPOSE false belief systems in a non violent way.

 

 

 

 

 

Aman: Because you say they are adults and should know?

 

Thumbelina: I don't say anything, it's the word that says it.

 

 

 

 

Aman: How like infants we are in our understanding of the Universe, not a whole lot more than that infant in the grand scheme of things, ...

 

Thumbelina: So true. I believe that the bible is God's love letter to us. I believe it on faith and I believe the prophecies it contains; but apparently omniscient, omnipresent atheists were there to see that there is no god.

 

 

 

 

Aman: ... and yet, you feel it's just OK to send adults to hell, but not babies. I don't send you there, and your understanding in frankly infantile. If I believed in an anthropomorphic sky-god like you do, "he" or "she" would be much bigger than yours and not send you to hell for your child-level ignorance. He/She would want you to grow up, and not condemn you for being ignorant and foolish.

 

Thumbelina: God is recording everything and he will judge people based on whatever truth they knew but did not follow. You have no idea how big my God is. God's redeemed will have an eternity to learn and knowledge will never stop.

 

 

 

 

Aman: How come your god thinks humans have it together enough to be judged by an Infinite Mind? That's really messed up there Thumbo, wouldn't you say?

 

Thumbelina: The Holy Spriit is working with mankind and God can read hearts/minds, God sent prophets and He sent/sends disciples etc. and also the bible says so:

 

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 http://bible.cc/john/12-48.htm

 

A lot of folks CHOOSE to be ignorant and they will be judged on that " My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: That is not biblical AT ALL.

 

 

 

Aman: It's as Biblical to them as your Biblical beliefs are. Same book, different interpreters. Equally as infantile and offense to Spirit.

 

Thumbelina: The bible interprets itself so there should be no need for misunderstandings or big misunderstandings for we are slow to understand.

 

 

 

Thumbelina said : Before a person is baptized they must be taught and then they must repent ----> "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

Can a baby understand if you preach to him/her? Can a baby repent from his/her selfish ways?

 

 

 

Aman: Can you? Have you?

 

Thumbelina: lol What are you talking about Aman? The bible says that the carnal or unspiritual man cannot judge the believer for they do not have the holy spirit; they may have a spirit but not a holy one.

 

 

 

Aman: BTW, do you know that being selfish is normal and healthy and necessary for a child growing up? Maturity is growth into others in a lessening of yourself as center of the world. Now, I do take special note that you rejoice madly about how YOU are Saved! How YOU are going to Heaven! How YOU, YOU, YOU............ condemn OTHERS not like YOU. Selfish? Immature? Infantile.

 

Thumbelina: Sin is selfishness. Nothing is wrong with coveting good and noble things but to be the target of uncaring and selfish beings is not an ideal situation to be in.

Please stop trying to put words in my mouth and if I was selfish I wouldn't be here in the den taking insults from lions. I would go to people who believe as I do and we would boast but then that is NOT Christianity. I can't condemn others, I too have to face the judge one day but I love and like Him and I think He's cool; He's also my lawyer.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: God winks at ignorance "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30. Babies are ignorant but they are not perfect, they have the selfish sin nature and tendencies.

 

 

 

Aman: Oh, that's rich! Babies are sinful because they haven't developed mature egos yet and want a breast to feed them, unable to recognize themselves as individuals yet! Sinners! Ludicrous.

 

Thumbelina: Babies are selfish but God does not consider them sinners because they are not aware that they are, they just are because of genetics. Babies fall short of God's glory but He loves them oh, so much.

*rhetorical question* Have you or bdp and others who share your sentiment ever have the experience of nursing a baby that has already has some teeth and they bite you just to hear you scream and then they laugh? or have you seen it happen to a woman? Babies can be mean. Have you ever had your hair pulled by a baby? They have strong grips. Have you ever been squirted with # 1 or # 2 from a baby? Again I say, those are not IDEAL situations.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: I believe that babies who will be in heaven will be perfect; but of course, there will be no more sin.

 

 

Aman: Yes, there will be little babies crawling on all fours in heaven, with fully developed minds and egos expressing deep philanthropic ways towards others, caring, showing empathy, expressing shared emotions... discussing philosophy, composing music, reciting poetry etc. Unlike us though, they'll be cuter, little butterballs of eternal joy! Coochee Choochee cooo......

 

Add a new chapter to your book Angie and the House Elf.

 

You are incredibly silly in your thoughts.

 

 

 

Thumbelina: It is written: "And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof." Zechariah 8:5. "And ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall." Malachi 4:2.

 

Yes, there will be many boys and girls in the holy city (Isaiah 11:6-9), and these youngsters will grow up (Malachi 4:2). We have degenerated much in stature, intellect, and vitality since Adam, but all of this will be restored (Acts 3:20, 21)."

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: Parents are RESPONSIBLE for their children; when Moses did not circumcise his son, God did not seek to kill the child for disobedience but HE sought to kill Moses, the one in charge. Moses was supposed to dedicate the child to God.

 

 

Aman: Wow, better be a good parent or God will try to KILL you! Yikes! And you worship that?

 

 

Thumbelina: Did you ever read about Moses complaining? God will judge crappy parents if they don't repent. Ah my friend, there are so many object lessons to learn from the bible, so I believe.

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: Babies are virtual savages, their goal is self preservation, they basically only care about their own self.

 

 

 

Aman: Babies are natural in their development. You are ignorant beyond ignorant.

 

Thumbelina: They're naturally beautiful and selfish in their development :ha ha:

 

 

 

 

 

Aman: It's when they become and adult and act that way that's the problem. That shows a developmental retardation, thinking only of yourself ...

Thumbelina: It's an epidemic in society today and now they killed God (in their minds) in order to justify it. I have witnessed dudes throwing mantrums and I was scared (while a baby can't do much damage, a man can) and had to pray and Jesus came to the rescue.

 

 

 

 

Aman: ... and YOUR salvation, your religion, your beliefs, your ways of things, you, you, you.....

 

Thumbelina: Good thing that is only your perception of Christianity and not what Christianity is about. Christianity teaches "Not I, but Christ"

 

 

 

Thumbelina said: They have base passions; children love to say "MINE!!!!" they have to be taught to share but that's it, they can be taught

 

 

 

Aman: Just as you need to grow out of your spiritual infancy by others pointing out how lacking you are. (If only you could listen, removing the cotton balls of selected Bible verses you have stuffed in your ears).

 

Thumbelina: The believer does need to take a look at themself but they are also not to worry too much about what zygotes say because their understanding is skewed.

 

 

 

Aman: And hopefully we never imagine we have arrived, telling ourselves such things as "I have Jesus, and Jesus makes me perfect!"

 

Thumbelina: Yup, 1 Corinth. 10:12 " Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Believers are not supposed to be presumptuous.

 

 

 

Aman: By their fruits you shall know them.

 

Thumbelina: What plumbline does one use to gauge these spiritual fruits? Good thing the God of Christianity is patient and He takes time to develop fruits in His children and that is another reason why I still remain a Christian.

[bdp]

 

 

 

atheism... think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers

 

you really, seriously, think this is what atheism is?

[Thumbelina]

Former satanists

 

...like Mike Warnke? Are all 'former satanists' lying bastards like Warnke?

 

btw, ask law enforcement, they'll tell you there's zero evidence for any of this hysterical nonsense.

 

 

Hi *waves*, I like bothering you and Par; Par needs to see a doctor for he keeps throwing up

 

Who is Mike Warnke?

 

Law enforcement can't even solve all the plain ole crimes so how are they going to figure out the ones committed by spirit beings that use human agents?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

atheism... think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers

 

you really, seriously, think this is what atheism is?

 

Atheists remind me of those fickle Greek gods but for some reason shy me is attracted to them. God has a sense of humor, maybe He wants to toughen me up; maybe one might actually listen to me. Atheists think they are main arbiters and they make it hard for the HS to get through.

[Thumbelina]

btw, ask law enforcement, they'll tell you there's zero evidence for any of this hysterical nonsense.

Who needs evidence when you have Jesus?

 

 

Hey you Mr Mischief let's put our fighting aside for a minute; how are you doing this week?

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Christianity is not myth. Yes, a lot of people are deceived and think that Satan does not exist; that's exactly what he wants. The veil between the natural and the supernatural will be raised MORE (currently, people do see supernatural things) in the latter times and he will deceive a lot of people. He will impersonate Christ; he is terribly jealous of Jesus. Have you ever had someone be jealous of you and who imitated you in order to compete with you and the person was quite conniving? That can be so annoying or even dangerous. A lot of those kids that are reported missing, who vanished without a trace, a lot of them were sacrificed by satanists. Former satanists admit that these things do go on; one even said that they cannot do anything with the kids that are prayed for. There is a lot of evil out there.

 

 

Yes there is a lot of evil out there and some of it is in the church. Some Satantists fuck up peoples lives behind closed doors, the church destroys young people's lives and minds in the open, and no one bats an eyelid except ex christians who leave the church sometimes because they are sick and tired of watching lives and mind destroyed by the bullshit that is christianity. And girly don't bother telling me it isn't true, I sat there and watched it for 36 years.

 

Why didn't you call the cops? Don't let all the bad apples spoil the whole bunch. Christ is not like that.