Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros, I wish I could say that I have all the answers. What you went through and are still going through surpasses anything I can really comprehend. I wish I could help.

It's the lack of answers that makes belief in a fictitious deity impossible. When it comes to God's existence, there are no answers. The only so-called answers are excuses for an absent super-power. If God exists, God can prove himself, but he doesn't. So the answers are simple: he doesn't exist, he doesn't want to, or he can't. If he doesn't want to, then I'm pissed because I wanted him to do anything, just something, to prove himself. If he can't, then he's not super-powerful. If he doesn't exist, well, that makes it a lot easier to understand and explain things. So currently, until God proves himself, the default position is the easiest one.

 

I take it you are in school? If so, what for?

To change my career.

 

I have only been saved for around thirteen years. You -- you were saved for thirty years. What kept you believing in the God for almost as long as I have been alive? Did you see things different before the accident?

Yeah. Life was hard, but not that hard. After the accident and having to care for a paraplegic son, life became much more difficult, and it never let up. I had this image of God coming to rescue when things got tough, but he never did. I have no stories about being almost broke and praying, and then miraculously someone sends me money, or such. My stories are more like being almost broke, praying, and nothing happening except for being broke and life getting even harder.

 

You know, I even went to Bible school, and went on two mission trips. I used to spend my Saturdays going around and knocking on doors to talk to people about Jesus. I carried a pocket Bible everywhere I went and read mostly only the Bible. I lost years when I could have spent reading about real things like science.

 

The night after I typed that post, I was struggling with God over this. I felt strongly God telling me that your son was, or was in the process, of being healed. This happened around 3 AM the following morning. The next day I read your post, and what did I see, nothing. I was very disappointed. I was looking for a praise report. I struggled more with God than then ever before.

Sorry to hear that. I don't feel it's my calling to take away anyone's beliefs. I consider everyone's belief to be their right and responsibility, and since I spent years trying to convert people to Christianity, I have become very repulsed by actively de-converting people. That's why I only spent my time discussing on this website. I'm not active on any other website.

 

Then God revealed to me all of the things, signs and miracles that He had done for me in the past. Changing my life, saving my physical life, providing when nothing was around, showing me answers to prayer that was prayed over and over. Then God said, "I did all of this, yet you still do not believe!?" All I could do is fall to my knees and apologize, and say :God, you are right, and I am wrong, and I am sorry. Lord, I will never doubt again."

Good for you.

 

Too bad God doesn't do that for everyone else.

 

Now this was probably not true, but I do mean it to be true. I cannot explain this and I am truly sorry that I cannot. I am hoping and praying that God will give me or you some revelation on this for sure. I believe it will be given to you. When this happens my friend, PLEASE, let me know.

Sure.

 

 

Please continue to do all of the above, my friend. I will be looking forward to further postings.

I'm not that insane.

 

I prayed for years, praying now feels like praying to Santa Claus or the Fairy Godmother.

 

I gave your God another chance, and he didn't come through. If he wants me to know, then it's up to him.

 

Whe God showes you that your son is healed, He will be showing you that He wants to save your life. No need to respond to God. He does not need you to do this miracle. He has already done it. However, He wants you to be part of learning from it, and being paer of more to come.

And I'm waiting for that "when" before I do anything else.

 

Who knows, maybe Allah will heal my son, or Buddha, or Krishna. Maybe Zeus will heal him. It's open for any God to prove his/her existence.

 

I luv ya Ouroboros (no, not like that), and I will be looking forward to the future with the revelations that I believe will happen. If God is not real, I am a liar, and if I am lying, revelations will never happen. It is true many Christians would discourage such believe and statements, but I believe what the Lord told me will come about.

Sure.

 

Happy holidays to you.

[Darklady]

 

 

stranger - let me be straight here, god does not answer prayer. The collective number of years that we ex xains on this site were xains must amount to hundreds if not thousands of years. Is there one miracle from god - just one real live miracle that cannot be explained by natural causes amongst us ....

no there is not.

 

Please understand that you continual statements about god healing and answering prayer are hurtful, false and so blatantly dishonest. Please understand that a silent god is not a god but an empty fruitless lost idea that is well past its use by date. Stop saying that you have been led by the holy spirit to pray when it is your own mind telling you these things. there is no god that cares about us.

The only help we get is from each other.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I am stepping out in faith on this one, because I feel convicted to do so. Is it the Holy Spirit? I certainly believe so. Will you step out in faith with me?

 

(just this one last time?)

 

The night after I typed that post, I was struggling with God over this. I felt strongly God telling me that your son was, or was in the process, of being healed. This happened around 3 AM the following morning. The next day I read your post, and what did I see, nothing. I was very disappointed. I was looking for a praise report. I struggled more with God than then ever before.

 

Then God revealed to me all of the things, signs and miracles that He had done for me in the past. Changing my life, saving my physical life, providing when nothing was around, showing me answers to prayer that was prayed over and over. Then God said, "I did all of this, yet you still do not believe!?" All I could do is fall to my knees and apologize, and say :God, you are right, and I am wrong, and I am sorry. Lord, I will never doubt again."

 

Now this was probably not true, but I do mean it to be true. I cannot explain this and I am truly sorry that I cannot. I am hoping and praying that God will give me or you some revelation on this for sure. I believe it will be given to you. When this happens my friend, PLEASE, let me know.

 

Stranger, I wasn't planning to jump into your discussion with Ouroboros, but I have to say that I agree with Darklady's comment that what you think is from God is just in your head. You said you "certainly believe" that the Holy Spirit led you to step out on faith, but it proved wrong. You accept that you were wrong on that, but then claim that you feel God communicating with you again. Can't you see that this second instance is likely no more from God than the first? Can't you see that this second instance is likely just as imagined as the first?

 

If you really had a perfect God who wanted to communicate with you, wouldn't he make it obvious? The fact that you have to rely on highly subjective feelings (which sometimes clearly prove wrong, as in the first instance above) should be quite telling about whether or not you're really hearing from a God, should it not?

[the stranger]

Sorry to hear that. I don't feel it's my calling to take away anyone's beliefs. I consider everyone's belief to be their right and responsibility, and since I spent years trying to convert people to Christianity, I have become very repulsed by actively de-converting people. That's why I only spent my time discussing on this website. I'm not active on any other website.

 

For this, among many other reasons (like, for one, unlike so many that I know, taking care of your family even in the roughest of times) you already know that I have great respect for you.

 

Please understand that you continual statements about god healing and answering prayer are hurtful, false and so blatantly dishonest. Please understand that a silent god is not a god but an empty fruitless lost idea that is well past its use by date.

 

Lady, I do not disagree with you at all about this healing thing being hurtful if not done. It is one of the things that I have thought long and hard about. The last thing on my heart and mind is to want to give Ouroboros any more hurt and pain (or salt in the wound) than he has already had to endure. I wish so bad I could take everything bad that happened away.

 

But let me ask you this. If he discovers his son healed, would this be hurtful? By having no hope at all, is this helpful? For those that believe in the God of miracles, we believe that He can turn the worst situations into the best for His name sake.

 

My intention is never to hurt anyone, but only help. And I will be honest with you, God has never used me to heal anyone physically before in my life. However, He has used me to give peace, to bring others to Himself, and using me to supply helpful words, gifts, or help at just the right time.

 

There are too many things, like my everyday life, that I just cannot pretend the very God who walks with me and helps me make every decision is just a blur in my imagination. I had lived with myself and my own thoughts for more years than I have accepted Jesus. I always made the wrong decisions. In my own life, when I have followed His calling, He has always made things work out in the end, so much so where based on my prier decisions and their outcomes, and how everything somehow, over time, now falls into place when before they all fell apart just astounds me to even a deeper faith. But most of all, it is the inner peace that I no longer feel when I no longer believe or reject the Great I Am. I can only speak for myself on this, Lady, but this has been my life story. With God things unworkable work out, and with out Him, things that seem workable falls apart. In regards to feelings, you are right to some degree, but His word tells us to test the spirits. What I mean by that, if what I feel is not biblical, than perhaps it is not the Holy Spirit, and instead ourselves or Satan. Do you believe in Satan? Feelings and the word, as well as reasoning (though sometimes we must go beyond reasoning) go hand and hand.

 

Stranger, I wasn't planning to jump into your discussion with Ouroboros, but I have to say that I agree with Darklady's comment that what you think is from God is just in your head. You said you "certainly believe" that the Holy Spirit led you to step out on faith, but it proved wrong. You accept that you were wrong on that, but then claim that you feel God communicating with you again. Can't you see that this second instance is likely no more from God than the first? Can't you see that this second instance is likely just as imagined as the first?

 

I can certainly see where you are coming from my friend. But perhaps it goes more like this: The Holy Spirit lead me, but I was wrong on what I suspected the timing of recognizing the healing would be. The Holy Spirit did not prove wrong, but my understanding of the timing of seeing this proved wrong. If I never had the Holy Spirit guide me before, and never had God work out miracles before, despite my timing is often off, and some of the things that I have felt were to happen have yet to happen (though many of the things, through time, hard ship, and testing have happened, including my recent victory in partial disability due to my lack of food intake, in which I fought in court after three and a half years -- PS I also feel now I will be almost completely healed from this over time, and have already seen some improvement) perhaps I would take your advice. I know you got the smarts, but do what do you having guiding your decisions in life. Again, I can only speak for myself, but this sex crazed monkey only knew of making all the wrong choices, and feeling bad after the fact, then making those choices again, before he accepted Christ into his life.

 

Ouroboros, If I told you I was not walking on faith alone on this one I would be lying. The last thing that I would ever want to do is hurt you or your family. You have already been through more than I can comprehend.

[Guest I Love Dog]

There are too many things, like my everyday life, that I just cannot pretend the very God who walks with me and helps me make every decision is just a blur in my imagination. I had lived with myself and my own thoughts for more years than I have accepted Jesus. I always made the wrong decisions. In my own life, when I have followed His calling, He has always made things work out in the end, so much so where based on my prier decisions and their outcomes, and how everything somehow, over time, now falls into place when before they all fell apart just astounds me to even a deeper faith. But most of all, it is the inner peace that I no longer feel when I no longer believe or reject the Great I Am. I can only speak for myself on this, Lady, but this has been my life story. With God things unworkable work out, and with out Him, things that seem workable falls apart. In regards to feelings, you are right to some degree, but His word tells us to test the spirits. What I mean by that, if what I feel is not biblical, than perhaps it is not the Holy Spirit, and instead ourselves or Satan. Do you believe in Satan? Feelings and the word, as well as reasoning (though sometimes we must go beyond reasoning) go hand and hand.

 

It's interesting, Stranger, and I'm not being disrespectful, but I often wonder why some people need your belief to get them through life and others, like myself, have no need whatsoever of a belief in a god.

 

My life as an atheist has been good in so many ways, I have wonderful children and grandchildren, none of whom have a belief in a deity and they are all successful, wonderful human beings. Living and giving, caring and sharing. One daughter had a health scare, breast cancer at 26, but none us us prayed to a god and she came through a breast removal and chemo and radiation treatment. The doctors said that she would never have children because of the treatment, but some years later, she became pregnant. We didn't pray for this, we didn't thank a god when it happened.

 

Is it possible that some people need a type of emotional support/strength that can really only come from within themselves but they don't understand how it happens, perhaps because of low self-esteem or confidence, that their problems become sorted so they call it "god"?

 

Just curious.

[★ Citsonga ★]

There are too many things, like my everyday life, that I just cannot pretend the very God who walks with me and helps me make every decision is just a blur in my imagination.

 

Nobody's asking you to pretend, but rather to accept reality.

 

I had lived with myself and my own thoughts for more years than I have accepted Jesus. I always made the wrong decisions. In my own life, when I have followed His calling, He has always made things work out in the end, so much so where based on my prier decisions and their outcomes, and how everything somehow, over time, now falls into place when before they all fell apart just astounds me to even a deeper faith. But most of all, it is the inner peace that I no longer feel when I no longer believe or reject the Great I Am. I can only speak for myself on this, Lady, but this has been my life story. With God things unworkable work out, and with out Him, things that seem workable falls apart.

 

So, basically you need to feel like there's a big, invisible skydaddy in order to keep yourself in line? If you personally need that, then that's your own prerogative. That does not mean that the rest of us need an imaginary friend, though, nor does it mean that the Bible is inerrant.

 

I haven't turned into some terrible person because I stopped believing. I'm essentially the same person I was as a believer, I just no longer believe in superstition and I no longer get hung up on some silly little things that Christians often make a big deal over. So how does that fit into your assumptions about needing your God to be good?

 

Stranger, I wasn't planning to jump into your discussion with Ouroboros, but I have to say that I agree with Darklady's comment that what you think is from God is just in your head. You said you "certainly believe" that the Holy Spirit led you to step out on faith, but it proved wrong. You accept that you were wrong on that, but then claim that you feel God communicating with you again. Can't you see that this second instance is likely no more from God than the first? Can't you see that this second instance is likely just as imagined as the first?

 

I can certainly see where you are coming from my friend. But perhaps it goes more like this: The Holy Spirit lead me, but I was wrong on what I suspected the timing of recognizing the healing would be. The Holy Spirit did not prove wrong, but my understanding of the timing of seeing this proved wrong.

 

Or maybe all you really have is exactly that: Your own personal understanding of a so-called Holy Spirit. In other words, it could all be just in your mind.

 

Think about this: If you really had the Holy Spirit living in you, communicating with you and guiding you into all truth, then why would he/it ever be unclear to you? What's the point in even having some Holy Spirit if, in the end, he/it is effectively indiscernible from your own thoughts?

 

If I never had the Holy Spirit guide me before, and never had God work out miracles before

 

And just what particular miracles can you prove? Can you point to anything at all that is verifiable that could not be explained naturally?

 

my recent victory in partial disability due to my lack of food intake, in which I fought in court after three and a half years -- PS I also feel now I will be almost completely healed from this over time, and have already seen some improvement

 

I would be interested in hearing what you're referring to here.

 

PS -- I hope Santa was good to you this year.

[★ Citsonga ★]

By the way, Stranger, I'm curious if you saw this post from a while back. I know that a lot of Bible issues have been brought up, but this is dealing with the issue of morality, which should be rather simple for someone having the Holy Spirit as a guide.

 

Also, Stranger, do you believe that the bible is supposed to be our moral compass? If so, then how do you deal with the following?

 

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: "…Do not spare them;

put to death

men and women,

children and infants,

cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3).

 

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and

rapes

her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver.

He must marry the girl,

for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

 

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,

happy

is he who repays you for what you have done to us -- he who

seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

" (Psalm 137:8-9)

 

"If a man

beats

his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but

he is not to be punished

if the slave gets up after a day or two, since

the slave is his property.

" (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them

you may buy slaves. You may also buy

some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become

your property.

" (Leviticus 25:44-45)

 

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates,

all the people shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you.

" (Deuteronomy 20:10-11)

 

"The Lord…

punishes the children for the sin of the fathers

to the third and fourth generation." (Numbers 14:18)

 

"A

bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD;

even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:2, KJV)

 

Please explain how things like this represent a high moral ground. (By the way, if you think of trying to write it off as "just the Old Testament," I double dare you to!)

 

Interestingly, this quote is from post #666. Hmmmm....

[the stranger]

It's interesting, Stranger, and I'm not being disrespectful, but I often wonder why some people need your belief to get them through life and others, like myself, have no need whatsoever of a belief in a god.

 

My life as an atheist has been good in so many ways, I have wonderful children and grandchildren, none of whom have a belief in a deity and they are all successful, wonderful human beings. Living and giving, caring and sharing. One daughter had a health scare, breast cancer at 26, but none us us prayed to a god and she came through a breast removal and chemo and radiation treatment. The doctors said that she would never have children because of the treatment, but some years later, she became pregnant. We didn't pray for this, we didn't thank a god when it happened.

 

Is it possible that some people need a type of emotional support/strength that can really only come from within themselves but they don't understand how it happens, perhaps because of low self-esteem or confidence, that their problems become sorted so they call it "god"?

 

Just curious.

 

I love Dog, I love dogs too. LOL Really, that is a very valid question. I have known several non Christians that seem to be living as much of a good and moral life as me being a Christian. On the other hand, I know many many more that live a little closer to my old life, and yet others that just seem to have some issues but on a whole, are what many would call half way normal, if there is such a thing. This is a question that I have thought about many times.

 

Before I accepted Christ, though I had no self control (and limited even now) I had some responsibility. My sister had two kids early on by two different men. Unusual? Hardly. I could have easily been there myself, and only God knows why I was not. To make a long story short, just like my mom raised us by herself, with no car, no TV, (However, we did not go hungry) and moving allot (in town). Infact, we were blessed by her parents, in whom we moved in with on three occasions. Point being, like many others, we have always known what it was like being poor. My sister had no support whatsoever from the two fathers. That left things up to me and my mother to help out, in which we have been doing every sense. In fact, that is my family. (though often others who are down on their luck also stay with us)

 

Bottom line. Did I have some responsibility? Yes. Did I have the ability to care? Yes. Did I still try to help, and try to always have a job? Yes. But there was one thing. When your young, you want your own family. I had bitterness in my heart for feeling obligated to stay and help. Sometimes I kept my whole check and did as I pleased. I did allot of stupid things. One year I had 22 jobs. I had a temper that often got the best of me. Point being, I was not all bad, but I had allot of bad in me. I had resentment, I had anger, and I did not like having to take the responsibility.

 

So what changed after Jesus? He changed my heart to want to help, though this took some time. He set on my heart that mission to stay with my family. He took the bitterness out of my heart, over time, and helped me greatly with my temper. He helped me be more brave in the outcomes where I had to stand up to people that went way out of line concerning the family I love.

 

Before Christ, my lack of self control left me with my best friends girl, my neighbors wife, ratting on my drug supplier, and just being stupid in so many ways. I believe God saved me out of all of that, and I know in a couple of these situations, God was with me, or I would have been dead. He cared even before I accepted him.

 

===============================================

 

So what am I saying? I think there is some good in all of us. I want to copy a post that I found. I thought it was quite well written.

 

I would tend to say that you would need to consider the following questions from the honesty of your own heart (the point to these questions will be apparent after the questions):

 

- Have you ever told a lie? If so, that would make you a liar.

- If you are a liar, do you like others to lie to YOU? This is a double standard; it's called hypocrisy.

- Have you ever taken anything that wasn't rightfully yours to take? This would make you a thief.

- If you have ever taken anything, would you like it if some one stole YOUR stuff? This double standard is called hypocrisy.

- Have you ever been angry, or even hateful towards another person? Jesus said that this is the same as murder!

- Have you ever looked at another person with sexual desire (i.e. lust)? Jesus said that this is the same as adultery!

 

If you had to admit that you have been guilty to these few questions, that would make you a lying, thieving, hypocritical, adulterous murderer.

 

If you still think that you are just fine with out God, you can add "self-righteous" and "holier-than-thou" to the list, making you a "self-righteous, holier-than-thou hypocrite, who is a lying, thieving, adulterous murderer!" (*OUCH*)

 

I didn't even ask if you have ever disobeyed your parents, or if you have ever been jealous or envious or greedy or stingy. I didn't ask about your attitudes or thoughts or language you've used or your motives for doing things.

 

But the point to all this is, we are ALL guilty of these things, and we DO need God's forgiveness. You may THINK you are a moral person, but if you have EVER violated your own conscience, or done anything that you felt guilt or shame over, then you stand guilty before God, and you need God.

 

With out God, you remain a moral failure, and only with God's grace can you rise above your moral failings because God not only forgives us, but He cleanses our hearts (spiritually speaking), He gives us a clean slate, and He even gives us the POWER to do what is right. (Granted, it's a growing experience, learning new behavior patterns, with many falls in the process, like a baby learning to walk, who keeps falling many times), but with OUT God's Holy Spirit empowering your own human spirit, you can NEVER hope to become the kind of person you THINK you are, and the kind of person you wish you COULD be. You remain a moral failure your entire life, and then you get judged for rejecting His offer to rescue you from your sinful lifestyle.

 

"If God never existed ... " - you wouldn't be here, period. (Please don't play the hypocrite by saying you don't believe God exists, when YOU are the one who is asking about Him!)

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100713045301AAdMbNh

 

===========================================================================================

 

Point being, we all have good, but we all fall short. I realize my sins now more than ever. I am saved, yet still so sinful. I think of what Paul wrote, "I do what I do not want to do, and I do not do what I want to do." If Christians have this issue, do you really believe that you do not. I struggle with certain things on daily basis. Over and over again. It is a daily battle for me and most Christians. Are you saying you never make choices that you regret? Now you can say, "sure, but we learn and grow, just like you Christians.", but for me, there was no growing beyond myself without Christ. I never had any reason to, or lust just would not let me. I do not know how else to put it. Christ changed my life, because He changed my heart.

 

I am happy and grateful that your daughter pulled through, plus had kids. The only thing that I can say is that in my own life I believe Jesus protected me before I ever accepted Him. Whether we give thanks to God or pray to god or not, I still believe He is in control of all that happens, not just the lives of the believers.

 

Speaking for myself, I never had what it took to change much with in my very being. I know some, however, that do.

 

There are some things that I can just not answer with answers that even I am completely satisfied with.

 

I knew this man who did not believe in God at one of the jobs I worked at. He was always happy. Me? Always grumpy would be more appropiate. Certainly part of it is in the genes, but sometimes I would love to chat with him again, and see if he still holds to the same believe.

 

Thank you for that good question. I will respond to the others shortly. I hope everybody had a Very Merry Christmas indeed.

[the stranger]

I haven't turned into some terrible person because I stopped believing. I'm essentially the same person I was as a believer, I just no longer believe in superstition and I no longer get hung up on some silly little things that Christians often make a big deal over. So how does that fit into your assumptions about needing your God to be good?

 

Cits, it just does not fit it all with me. LOL One size does not fit all. Can you tell me if anything changed at all. A deep down feeling of peace, perhaps the way you do some things now, or perhaps the things that you now allow. Just curios. I know that I could and would not be able to say the same thing. I have already tried this, more than once.

 

Or maybe all you really have is exactly that: Your own personal understanding of a so-called Holy Spirit. In other words, it could all be just in your mind.

 

Think about this: If you really had the Holy Spirit living in you, communicating with you and guiding you into all truth, then why would he/it ever be unclear to you? What's the point in even having some Holy Spirit if, in the end, he/it is effectively indiscernible from your own thoughts?

 

That is a fair question my friend. I think one reason is that we tend to think in the mind, but the Spirit works in groans deep down that sometimes is just not clear. I guess that is why we are supposed to seek council from the church on some of the biggest decisions regarding these things. Also, I believe that there are many spirits, and not just of God.

 

When i was young, I was taking my mother to do laundry. I had the car backed up too far. I meant to put the car in drive, but instead put it in reverse. The voive inside my head said, "Don't stop, it will hurt your mom more if you do." The truth? No. Scary thing is, this is the first time I have told anybody of this. Another time, driving for my job, I use to sleep often while going down the road. Smart? No. But I did. One time I slept off and on all the way to Chicago (3 hours away) with three other men in the van! I just worked too much. One night on my way to traverse city, I again fell asleep, and something, like always, tried to jerk me awake. But then I heard this voice, and it said, "Do not worry, relax, you always wake up in time." Well, this one one time that i did not, my friend. I do not know if I am alone with this sort of thing, but these are just a couple examples why I believe that the Holy Spirit is not the only one, and it is in the bible. I could go on and on with this, and tell you all the other crazy stories I hear, but I think you understand where I am coming from.

 

The answer: One -- we have a hard time always understanding the Spirit. Two, we have more than one spirit telling us these sorts of things, and we have to learn which is from the Holy Spirit living inside us, and which is from Satan.

 

The things of God are not always explained or even always understood.

 

And just what particular miracles can you prove? Can you point to anything at all that is verifiable that could not be explained naturally?

 

Just full of good ones today, aren't you. On what I have witnessed, it is hard to say. In church services I have seen people rolling on the floor because of such a strong sense of the Holy Ghost. People screaming, crying, and praising God. Could this all be in our heads? I guess it depends on who you ask.

 

I have myself been told through a verbal prayer by a cousin who was in the hospital and at the time could here nothing, tell me my prayer he heard, and he felt a warm sensation come over him. He gave his life to Christ that same time. Is this natural? Who are you asking?

 

I have heard a story where one went to the store, and felt lead to fill two carts up with groceries, yet had not a dime on them. When at the register, the loudspeaker comes on. "You have just one our free grocery give away". Was this true? Depends on who your talking to.

 

Through the Holy Spirits directing I have prayed over people, and they have gotten such a relief of pain and pressure. Sometimes feeling clear minded and at full peace. They said I had just prayed or said just what they needed to hear. Is this natural. Not if you ask me. Now I could go on and on and on, but for me, there is no way it can be in my head.

 

Jesus raised the dead, and so the priest killed the one raised to shut out the faith of those who saw. Bottom line. I think that it is a decision each one has to make for themselves. If the Holy Spirit can work through such a sinful hurtful person such as myself, I believe He can work through anybody that allows Him to.

 

PS -- I hope Santa was good to you this year.

 

He sure was! New underwear are always better than used ones. LOL

[the stranger]

Citsonga

 

Posted Yesterday, 11:50 AM

By the way, Stranger, I'm curious if you saw this post from a while back. I know that a lot of Bible issues have been brought up, but this is dealing with the issue of morality, which should be rather simple for someone having the Holy Spirit as a guide.

 

View PostCitsonga, on 05 December 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Also, Stranger, do you believe that the bible is supposed to be our moral compass? If so, then how do you deal with the following?

 

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: "…Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3).

 

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

 

"O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us -- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (Psalm 137:8-9)

 

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

 

"When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you." (Deuteronomy 20:10-11)

 

"The Lord… punishes the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." (Numbers 14:18)

 

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." (Deuteronomy 23:2, KJV)

 

 

Please explain how things like this represent a high moral ground. (By the way, if you think of trying to write it off as "just the Old Testament," I double dare you to!)

 

 

Interestingly, this quote is from post #666. Hmmmm....

 

Give me just a drop of time. I will start on them tonight. Thank you for your insight, Cits.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I haven't turned into some terrible person because I stopped believing. I'm essentially the same person I was as a believer, I just no longer believe in superstition and I no longer get hung up on some silly little things that Christians often make a big deal over. So how does that fit into your assumptions about needing your God to be good?

 

Cits, it just does not fit it all with me. LOL One size does not fit all.

 

I agree that one size doesn't fit all. Some probably do need a faith in something beyond themselves (regardless of whether or not that thing is true) to keep them in line. If you really need your faith for now, then that's your prerogative, but it should be a personal thing, not something that is expected of everyone else (as most Christians do).

 

Can you tell me if anything changed at all. A deep down feeling of peace, perhaps the way you do some things now, or perhaps the things that you now allow. Just curios.

 

Well, like I said, I no longer get hung up on little things. Is someone gay? Who cares? If that person isn't bothering anyone with it, then what's the big deal? Whose business is it?

 

As far as a "deep down feeling of peace," I had that as a believer and I have it now as a nonbeleiver. In the interim I went through pure hell, though. Going through the process of realizing that what I had believed to be absolute truth for years and years was actually a big, fat, whopping lie was an incredibly painful thing. It was like having the rug yanked out from under me but having nowhere to get a foothold. I would never, ever put myself through the torture of deconversion without being 100% convinced that there were strong reasons to disbelieve.

 

Or maybe all you really have is exactly that: Your own personal understanding of a so-called Holy Spirit. In other words, it could all be just in your mind.

 

Think about this: If you really had the Holy Spirit living in you, communicating with you and guiding you into all truth, then why would he/it ever be unclear to you? What's the point in even having some Holy Spirit if, in the end, he/it is effectively indiscernible from your own thoughts?

 

That is a fair question my friend. I think one reason is that we tend to think in the mind, but the Spirit works in groans deep down that sometimes is just not clear. I guess that is why we are supposed to seek council from the church on some of the biggest decisions regarding these things. Also, I believe that there are many spirits, and not just of God.

 

When i was young, I was taking my mother to do laundry. I had the car backed up too far. I meant to put the car in drive, but instead put it in reverse. The voive inside my head said, "Don't stop, it will hurt your mom more if you do." The truth? No. Scary thing is, this is the first time I have told anybody of this. Another time, driving for my job, I use to sleep often while going down the road. Smart? No. But I did. One time I slept off and on all the way to Chicago (3 hours away) with three other men in the van! I just worked too much. One night on my way to traverse city, I again fell asleep, and something, like always, tried to jerk me awake. But then I heard this voice, and it said, "Do not worry, relax, you always wake up in time." Well, this one one time that i did not, my friend. I do not know if I am alone with this sort of thing, but these are just a couple examples why I believe that the Holy Spirit is not the only one, and it is in the bible. I could go on and on with this, and tell you all the other crazy stories I hear, but I think you understand where I am coming from.

 

The answer: One -- we have a hard time always understanding the Spirit. Two, we have more than one spirit telling us these sorts of things, and we have to learn which is from the Holy Spirit living inside us, and which is from Satan.

 

The things of God are not always explained or even always understood.

 

Or perhaps it's not clear because it's simply not real.

 

In other words, you think things. If those things seem verified, then you interpret the thoughts as being from the Holy Spirit. If those things turn out to seem wrong, then you think that you misunderstood, because you assume that the so-called Holy Spirit could never be in error.

 

It's a lot like your approach to the Bible. You come with the preconceived notion that the Holy Spirit is real and inerrant, and then you interpret everything accordingly. Thus, you really don't have proof, you just have your own interpretations being guided by your preconceived assumptions.

 

As far as needing the church to give guidance, could it be that that's actually a matter of the church exerting control over you?

 

And just what particular miracles can you prove? Can you point to anything at all that is verifiable that could not be explained naturally?

 

Just full of good ones today, aren't you. On what I have witnessed, it is hard to say. In church services I have seen people rolling on the floor because of such a strong sense of the Holy Ghost. People screaming, crying, and praising God. Could this all be in our heads? I guess it depends on who you ask.

 

Even when I was a 100% believer I didn't believe in this "slain in the Spirit" stuff. It seemed too silly to be real. Anybody can lose control and start acting ridiculously.

 

I have myself been told through a verbal prayer by a cousin who was in the hospital and at the time could here nothing, tell me my prayer he heard, and he felt a warm sensation come over him. He gave his life to Christ that same time. Is this natural? Who are you asking?

 

Are you saying that you were the one praying or your cousin? The details are slightly unclear, given the way this is constructed.

 

I have heard a story where one went to the store, and felt lead to fill two carts up with groceries, yet had not a dime on them. When at the register, the loudspeaker comes on. "You have just one our free grocery give away". Was this true? Depends on who your talking to.

 

I think that "heard a story" is indicative here. There are all kinds of stories circulating. You apparently cannot verify this story. Even if you could, though, it could be entirely coincidental. Improbable, of course, but not impossible. Personally, I doubt that the story is true, and since you can't verify it, it's not a valid response to my question.

 

Through the Holy Spirits directing I have prayed over people, and they have gotten such a relief of pain and pressure. Sometimes feeling clear minded and at full peace. They said I had just prayed or said just what they needed to hear. Is this natural. Not if you ask me. Now I could go on and on and on, but for me, there is no way it can be in my head.

 

Have you ever heard of the placebo effect?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Jesus raised the dead, and so the priest killed the one raised to shut out the faith of those who saw. Bottom line. I think that it is a decision each one has to make for themselves. If the Holy Spirit can work through such a sinful hurtful person such as myself, I believe He can work through anybody that allows Him to.

 

If the Holy Spirit works in you, then perhaps you can answer this: Why won't God heal amputees?

 

Every time we hear of a so-called healing, it's always either something that could happen naturally or it's something happening too far away or with too few details given for us to be able to investigate and verify the claim.

 

With the latter, it's easy to see why someone making up stories would do so in a way that you wouldn't likely find out the truth. With the former, cancer going into remission or pain lessening can seem to be an answer to prayer, but those very things can and do also happen naturally.

 

So again, why won't God heal amputees? Arms and legs don't naturally grow back, and God doesn't heal them either. Does this mean that the only miracles God can perform are things that can also happen naturally? How does this prove that such miracles are actually happening? Could it be that all so-called "miracles" are purely natural events?

 

Check this out: http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

PS -- I hope Santa was good to you this year.

 

He sure was! New underwear are always better than used ones. LOL

 

That's great to hear, because if Santa had given you his used underwear, they'd surely be quite baggy!

[the stranger]

Cits, I will get to the rest later, but there is one question that really stuck out.

 

If the Holy Spirit works in you, then perhaps you can answer this: Why won't God heal amputees?

 

Every time we hear of a so-called healing, it's always either something that could happen naturally or it's something happening too far away or with too few details given for us to be able to investigate and verify the claim.

 

With the latter, it's easy to see why someone making up stories would do so in a way that you wouldn't likely find out the truth. With the former, cancer going into remission or pain lessening can seem to be an answer to prayer, but those very things can and do also happen naturally.

 

So again, why won't God heal amputees? Arms and legs don't naturally grow back, and God doesn't heal them either. Does this mean that the only miracles God can perform are things that can also happen naturally? How does this prove that such miracles are actually happening? Could it be that all so-called "miracles" are purely natural events?

 

Check this out: http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

 

First, in the bible He has.

 

Luke 22:50-51 (New International Version, ©2010)

 

50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

 

51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

 

Matthew 12:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)

 

12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

 

13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.

 

======================================

 

Secondly, this does still happen among told life happenings.

 

I saw a young man that had been hit by a car and due to the accident his right leg was shorter than his left by about three inches. I saw it grow out to the same length as the other one. I also had the same miracle, even though mine was not too much shorter. Jesus died so that we could receive any healing that we needed.

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080506092511AAQB09G

 

 

God DOES heal amputees - Today's Christian Videos

 

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=77KG7NNX

 

April 1st: Well folks, it looks like we were wrong. There really is a God after all, or at least some ‘thing’ up there that heals and answers prayers. Young Angie O’Plasty was a documented amputee after a freak airplane accident that left her two legs less. Keyword being ‘was’ an amputee because yesterday morning she woke up to a very pleasant surprise, an itchy toe. Angie had miraculously discovered she had two full legs again.

 

“The night before we held a prayer service at our church and we all laid hands on Angie, we asked that God would show mercy on our child and heal her to finally prove that he really is a merciful and loving God” said Angie’s mother.

 

http://atheistbus.ca/2009/04/01/god-heals-amputee-first-ever-to-be-recorded-by-doctors/

 

==============================================================

 

Thirdly, the main reason for miracles was to reveal Himself to others so that they would believe. Many disciples in the NT had physical problems but were never healed despite being prayed over.

 

 

Fourthly, it should be noted that if He created you and me out of dust, restored vision to the blind, and has made cancer get up and out of many Christians despite a death sentence from doctors, and risen the dead back to life that than certainly, if His word is true, He can heal amputees.

==================================================================

 

Bottom line: Your assumption is wrong. LOL

 

View Postthe stranger, on 26 December 2010 - 07:49 PM, said:

 

Quote

PS -- I hope Santa was good to you this year.

 

 

He sure was! New underwear are always better than used ones. LOL

 

 

That's great to hear, because if Santa had given you his used underwear, they'd surely be quite baggy!

 

Yes indeed, but than again, I guess that is the way they are supposed to be today, isn't it? OH WAIT, that's boxers. Perhaps whity tighties would not get the same response. (Or at least it has not worked for me yet) LOL

 

Have a good one buddy, and I will respond further in just a little bit.

 

May the God who heals also bless

 

 

PS. New update. I will not be able to get back on tonight (frown) but I will be back tomorrow (smile)

[kittypaws]

April 1st: Well folks, it looks like we were wrong. There really is a God after all, or at least some ‘thing’ up there that heals and answers prayers. Young Angie O’Plasty was a documented amputee

 

This must be from a satirical website because "Angie O'Plasty" is obviously a fake name: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Angioplasty

 

I'm afraid the rest of the "evidence" you provided isn't convincing either. This lengthening of legs business seems very popular; I remember a few of my friends were convinced it had happened to them too (and, unsurprisingly, they had been unaware of their other leg being shorter until a preacher told them it was).

[Ouroboros]

My legs had uneven length.

 

It was "healed."

 

By my physical therapist. I can explain more later, but has to do with a spin that's out of alignment.

[bdp]

April 1st: Well folks, it looks like we were wrong. There really is a God after all, or at least some ‘thing’ up there that heals and answers prayers. Young Angie O’Plasty was a documented amputee

 

This must be from a satirical website because "Angie O'Plasty" is obviously a fake name: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Angioplasty

 

I'm afraid the rest of the "evidence" you provided isn't convincing either. This lengthening of legs business seems very popular; I remember a few of my friends were convinced it had happened to them too (and, unsurprisingly, they had been unaware of their other leg being shorter until a preacher told them it was).

 

And notice the date it was posted.

 

As to the other link:

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/jesus_is_growing_her_a_new_leg.php

[Antlerman]

 

April 1st: Well folks, it looks like we were wrong. There really is a God after all, or at least some ‘thing’ up there that heals and answers prayers. Young Angie O’Plasty was a documented amputee after a freak airplane accident that left her two legs less. Keyword being ‘was’ an amputee because yesterday morning she woke up to a very pleasant surprise, an itchy toe. Angie had miraculously discovered she had two full legs again.

 

“The night before we held a prayer service at our church and we all laid hands on Angie, we asked that God would show mercy on our child and heal her to finally prove that he really is a merciful and loving God” said Angie’s mother.

 

http://atheistbus.ca/2009/04/01/god-heals-amputee-first-ever-to-be-recorded-by-doctors/

Oh my... this is so foolish of you, "foolish" being the operative word, since as you note the date of this 'report'.... April 1 - April Fools Day! "Angie O' Plasty" is a parody name referring to a heart operation, an angioplasty. On this parody site, they even spell it out explicity for you on the site, which you missed in your zeal to find affirmation for you beliefs.....

 

"Little Angie wanted to send a message to all our website viewers and we agreed to pass it along, she said “

Happy April 1st everybody… don’t be fooled

!”

 

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

 

But I particularily liked this from the other site where a woman is claiming her bone is being regrown:

 

"Let me ask you something: If you were a doctor, had a patient with a limb that was regenerating 20 years after it had been amputated because of trauma, and had compelling, unequivocal evidence to prove it, what would you do? I know what I'd do. I'd submit a case report to the New England Journal of Medicine! That's what I'd do. If I had the goods that proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt, Carole would be world-famous, and so would I!"

 

 

 

Why must God be a Magician for you?

[kittypaws]

Oh, I didn't notice the date at all! Haha! I didn't click the link because I wasn't in the mood for even parodied religious bullshit.

[the stranger]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

(same site -- same page)

 

Godbeliever Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm

 

How is ti possible you do not understand? This is not an april first joke! Even little Angie warned us about that! They would not have wrote that if it was a joke! Do you understand now?! She was really healed!

 

Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!

 

Sincerely yours,

Godbeliever

 

Ivy Dripp Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

 

Angie O’Plasty is my friend, this actually happened! Minister Wilma Leggrowbach and Father Wayne Kerr at our church prayed for her. Pat Myckok from Fox News did a story on it later that day.

 

 

This is another interesting testamony

 

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=MMEJMNNU#alertbar

 

===============================================================

 

Now I have just spent way too long trying to find stuff I can not find. I have found sites with many miracles and healings, but amputees, literally just the ones already on here. Truth being, I can find little evidence of stories of amputees being healed. They are out there, in the leg growth thing, or non working web site references, or always leading to other miracles.

 

So what does this mean? Does or can God heal amputees?

 

Again, if one believes the bible, He will believe that Jesus can and already has healed amputees. The stories, though very few, are out there. Truth is though, I could easily point to many more that are not healed of their sickness than that are healed. Though it could be rough grounds to try to estimate precetages of people healed, there are thousands, and probably millions, of testimonies of being healed from one physical impairment to another. It should also be noted that God uses us, such as doctors, to also heal other humans.

 

About the "joke", whether true or not, I cannot seem to find verication on the fox network, but I have yet to go all the way back to the 2004 and/or 2006 articles. I believe it may have originaly came from the link that they typed, but did not make it link accesible, whywontgodhealamputees.com

My link

Though I could not get the first vidio to work, so I am not even sure of this.

 

In any event, can you discredit the second story?

 

Anyhow, I will have to keep my eyes open and ears working for later information on the healing of amputees.

 

I will now try to respond to earlier replies.

[bdp]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

 

I'm calling 'spoof.'

[bdp]

 

 

In any event, can you discredit the second story?

 

 

 

You apparently missed the link I posted.

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/jesus_is_growing_her_a_new_leg.php

[Antlerman]

It was an April Fools Day parody to make fun of those who make such absurd claims. You were fooled.

 

Was I?

 

(same site -- same page)

 

Godbeliever Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm

 

How is ti possible you do not understand? This is not an april first joke! Even little Angie warned us about that! They would not have wrote that if it was a joke! Do you understand now?! She was really healed!

 

Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!

 

Sincerely yours,

Godbeliever

 

Ivy Dripp Says:

April 1st, 2009 at 4:15 pm

 

Angie O’Plasty is my friend, this actually happened! Minister Wilma Leggrowbach and Father Wayne Kerr at our church prayed for her. Pat Myckok from Fox News did a story on it later that day.

 

There are certain people who don't understand wry humor. This responder is playing along with the joke. "Send HIV"?? He's making fun that since know we can count on God actually doing something in magical as evidenced by this "miracle", bring on all the diseases! He's making fun. Here, look again how he says this! "Dear God, have mercy! We believe now! Send cholera, SARS, HIV (or another disease made by USA) and Spanish flu! We are yours now!" That's mocking!

[bdp]

'Ivy Dripp' is another giveaway - you know, like an IV drip...

 

'Minister Wilma Leggrowbach' - will my leg grow back

 

'Father Wayne Kerr' - wanker

 

'Pat Myckok' - he had to switch a couple of letters around to keep it from getting filtered out - I'll let you untangle that one.

[Antlerman]

'Ivy Dripp' is another giveaway - you know, like an IV drip...

I am never less than astounded to see people who just can't register humor. It's so blatantly obvious, and funny to boot.

 

Perhaps then to expect to understand symbols and metaphors in the use of myth would be even a steeper challenge to ask someone to see if they can't even get something so "hit you in the face" like this. IV Drip? IVY Drip.

 

Literalism at it's absolute worst. "What I like to see, that is FACT" That's what this boils down to, even when everyone can see it's a parody.

[the stranger]

Ha, You say she is a joke, but I'll show you!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wd9_gXrusg

 

Errrr, mabe she's a different one. LOL

 

Ya got me on my own info, Antlerhead! No more allowing me to play jokes on myself!!

 

(read your research, stranger)

 

I'm gonna be thinking a while about that one. I ain't done with you yet, Antlerhead!! LOL

 

You apparently missed the link I posted.

 

http://scienceblogs....r_a_new_leg.php

 

 

You are right. I had missed it. I am doing research on it now.

 

I really cannot find any more about her to verify anything.

 

All in all, afternoon time spent versing things accomplished? Let's not go there, it will remind me of my High school grades. This is one afternoon that I do not want a replay of. LOL

 

 

 

In my almost completely wasted afternoon, I did find this story that was kind of cool, but again, it isn't really relivent to the discussion.

 

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

 

Maybe my next post later tonight can be a little more fruitful. LOL