Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[bdp]

[Ouroboros]

The bible interprets itself

 

 

That is singularly, the most ignorant thing I think I have ever heard anyone say. So... the Bible reads itself to? It's got a pair of eyes and a brain, and thinks and reasons? We are talking a book here, paper, pages, ink... not a human who thinks, right?

 

 

 

Or perhaps you imagine it like this?

 

 

 

The talking reading, self-interpreting book of Magic to go with your House Elf and his arch rival Bad Elf. It's all coming together.....

Actually, those books exist!

 

There was one in Harry Potter, and it wrote itself and almost killed Harry and his friends. So they're real! It was one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Don't tell me it's not true! Harry Potter magic is real and Rawlings is the prophet.

[Antlerman]

Actually, those books exist!

 

There was one in Harry Potter, and it wrote itself and almost killed Harry and his friends. So they're real! It was one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Don't tell me it's not true! Harry Potter magic is real and Rawlings is the prophet.

You see, the whole Harry Potter thing keeps come back. She is the first Christian Potterarian I have ever met! Fandamntastic!

 

Voldermort is her Bad Elf

[Ouroboros]

Actually, those books exist!

 

There was one in Harry Potter, and it wrote itself and almost killed Harry and his friends. So they're real! It was one of Voldemort's horcruxes. Don't tell me it's not true! Harry Potter magic is real and Rawlings is the prophet.

You see, the whole Harry Potter thing keeps come back. She is the first Christian Potterarian I have ever met! Fandamntastic!

Yup. It was your talking about elves and then self-interpreting books that made the connection again.

 

It's actually quite amazing how well Harry Potter is analogous to Jesus. Harry Potter is the one who didn't die, and when he finally was killed, he was resurrected again. Not only that, but he did a lot of miracles on the way and proved to be a trustworthy and dependable friend.

 

And yes, Voldemort is Satan (the snake and all that, and only Harry Potter has the right revelations about V and his plans). It fulfills many hero archetypes (like Jesus).

[Antlerman]

Yup. It was your talking about elves and then self-interpreting books that made the connection again.

 

It's actually quite amazing how well Harry Potter is analogous to Jesus. Harry Potter is the one who didn't die, and when he finally was killed, he was resurrected again. Not only that, but he did a lot of miracles on the way and proved to be a trustworthy and dependable friend.

 

And yes, Voldemort is Satan (the snake and all that, and only Harry Potter has the right revelations about V and his plans). It fulfills many hero archetypes (like Jesus).

Well yes, that's why the Harry Potter, as well Luke Skywalker, Hercules and Jesus myths, registers with people. They follow those archetypes. The parallels between Thumbo's Magic Nazareen, the flying Messiah of Galilee and Harry Potter, boy prophet-wizard are astounding. Really, I'm only engaging in this for the sheer entertainment value of it. Jesus Potter, the Harry Christ.

[Ouroboros]

Well yes, that's why the Harry Potter, as well Luke Skywalker, Hercules and Jesus myths, registers with people. They follow those archetypes. The parallels between Thumbo's Magic Nazareen, the flying Messiah of Galilee and Harry Potter, boy prophet-wizard are astounding. Really, I'm only engaging in this for the sheer entertainment value of it. Jesus Potter, the Harry Christ.

 

Jesus Potter with a crucifix shaped wand.

[Antlerman]

Well yes, that's why the Harry Potter, as well Luke Skywalker, Hercules and Jesus myths, registers with people. They follow those archetypes. The parallels between Thumbo's Magic Nazareen, the flying Messiah of Galilee and Harry Potter, boy prophet-wizard are astounding. Really, I'm only engaging in this for the sheer entertainment value of it. Jesus Potter, the Harry Christ.

 

Jesus Potter with a crucifix shaped wand.

Behold his disciple who has learned His sorcering ways with the wand of Magic!

 

 

"Rectum disfunctium begonum!"

[Antlerman]

 

"Behold, the Book which Interpreteth Itself!"

[Galien]

Personally I always preferred Ron. Oh, and can I have a house elf??

[the stranger]

Catholics, not just for the protestants to harass. LOL Poor guys, do they ever get a break? Good guys, in being able to take all the harassment. My funny brothers in Christ! LOL In all honesty, though, for some, rules and regulations and rituals and structure, makes them a better believer. Myself, maybe that's my problem! Rebel rebel rebel, and still cracking jokes. Maybe I should be so lucky. No disrespect to my Catholic brothers, as I could make many more jokes about myself, but I will leave all that to someone else.

 

PS. I am a liar. I said I was going to post no new sites, but I just could not help myself. I like the way there all lined up and easy to observe. It kind of goes along with the beginnings of the thread. http://www.allaboutgod.com/does-god-exist.htm

 

I know, I know, I always got to have the last word. LOL Not really, but I really did like this one.

 

As always, God bless

[★ Citsonga ★]

PS. I am a liar.

 

Then I guess you're in big trouble, Mr!

 

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and

all liars

-- they

will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

This is the second death.

 

Enjoy your time burning for eternity with all of us heathens!

 

I always got to have the last word.

 

For someone who's "got to have the last word," you sure have avoided a LOT of points made in this thread. Should I repost everything of mine that you have avoided?

 

By the way, got any more April Fools jokes for us? Sorry, maybe I stepped over the line there, but I still find it a bit humorous about how you tried to keep that April Fools joke as alleged evidence even after it was pointed out to you that it was an obvious April Fools joke.

 

Anyway, have a Happy New Year!

[Ouroboros]

http://www.allaboutgod.com/does-god-exist.htm

I'm sorry, but the authors of that website doesn't know how scientific inquiry works.

 

And just scanning over the "protein" page, they seem to misunderstand some things. New genetic code, producing new types of protein, has been documented and observed in experiments. If it can't happen, then how come it does?

 

It's like asking "No one has proven that 1+1=2 because I haven't seen it yet."

 

Of course they haven't seen it, they're not looking.

[Droptail]

http://www.allaboutg...s-god-exist.htm

I'm sorry, but the authors of that website doesn't know how scientific inquiry works.

 

Indeed, it's not just about knowing the answers to problems; formulating the right questions and searching for the answers has just as much to do with it.

 

I watched the "Evolution of Sex" video, and yes, it's true that there's no accepted evolutionary reason for the development of sexual reproduction, but the video is misleading because there are several hypotheses on the table and the evidence is clear that sexual reproduction produces much more genetic variation than asexual and does provide an advantage to those organisms which are capable of it.

 

Advantageous alleles can be spread rapidly throughout the population instead of having to wait for that individual's offspring to dominate the population. Disadvantageous recessive alleles are often masked. There is the twofold cost of sexual reproduction relative to asexual (only half of sexual organisms, the female ones, are capable of bearing life), but offspring of sexually-reproducing parents have a competitive advantage by being able to occupy different niches in the environment.

[Ouroboros]

+1

 

---

 

I started to watch the "sex" video too, and the first thing that struck me was his comment that sex is very inefficient and as such it could not have evolved.

 

Unfortunately, this former attorney does not understand marginal cost/benefits. Evolution is not about reaching maximal optimization as a final goal, it's about small steps of changes where each step is somewhat slightly advantageous against the other steps, and only in a given context of environment. The end result is not necessarily the best or optimal solution to a problem at all, the eye and the laryngeal nerve are just two common examples, and there are many more examples like that in nature. Sex didn't evolve out of the blue one day because it was better than the asexual reproduction. What we see today is the end result of a long chain of small changes.

 

It's a very common problem with fact deniers. They only look at the end result and can only see the huge difference between now and then, and their conclusion is "impossible" only because of the inability to see the necessary steps in between.

 

What is surprising is that Randal Niles is an educator in business and yet he doesn't understand marginal cost!? Weird... Why is it that some people willingly shutting their own brains down when it comes to religion v. science?

 

---

 

Randall Niles continues by telling us that there are no "Darwinian explanation for sex." What does he mean with that? That there are no hypotheses presented in evolutionary theory about how sex evolved, or does he mean that Darwin didn't present a theory that was proven how it evolved? I'm not sure. But just searching "evolution of sex" provides plenty of links to websites where many explanations exist. Scientists have not settled on which explanation yet, but there are plenty of suggested explanations to go around.

 

---

 

Niles then goes on and quotes Zimmer from his book "Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea," where Zimmer ponders about the inefficiency of sex and how it technically would be a disaster for evolution. But Niles fails to continue to read Zimmer when Zimmer explains why sexual reproduction is advantageous. So how can it be both? How can Zimmer say it's not efficient and then in the next paragraph explain why sex is advantageous? Did Niles just commit the common fallacy of quote mining? He just took a quote from a book without studying what the author then explains? If anyone of us would do the same to their Holy Bible, we would be "missing context" of our quotes. So how about it Niles? How about studying the context?

 

---

 

I give up. Just one minute and 30 seconds in and I'm tired of hearing his drivel.

[the stranger]

For someone who's "got to have the last word," you sure have avoided a LOT of points made in this thread. Should I repost everything of mine that you have avoided?

 

By the way, got any more April Fools jokes for us? Sorry, maybe I stepped over the line there, but I still find it a bit humorous about how you tried to keep that April Fools joke as alleged evidence even after it was pointed out to you that it was an obvious April Fools joke.

 

Anyway, have a Happy New Year!

 

Cits, the problem is I don't have the time to get the last word! LOL For this, you never have to worry. Besides, what isw the last word? And what does it mean? It was really just meant for a joke. I have leaned a long time ago its always best to give the last word to another.

 

Concerning the points that I have avoided, my friend, you are right. Not because I do not want to or do not plan to get there, my friend, but time always wins the race. I am presently working on the prophecy fulfillment part of one of your threads. This could take a bit longer, however. Some tough questions, or though it seems LOL. I appreciate them.

 

In saying that, please feel free, and in fact, it would be appreciated, if you would go back and re post some of the great post you that you have typed. If you do, I will save them in my personal file and get to them in time. At least this way, I will always have them handy.

 

PS There will be no more April fools jokes until Antlerhead catches up with my posts again LOL I got myself pretty bad on that one LOL.

 

I hope ya all had a good new years eve, though some may not remember it. LOL

 

Ouroboros,

I know you know much more about science than myself. There is always two sides to every story. Don't worry about it, buddy, I am done posting on that whole thing.

 

Have a good new year my friends.

[Ouroboros]

Ouroboros,

I know you know much more about science than myself. There is always two sides to every story. Don't worry about it, buddy, I am done posting on that whole thing.

Yes. The side that is right and the side that is wrong... Just kidding.

 

Science is about challenging fixed paradigms, so in that sense, the critique only helps the theory of evolution to correct itself. It's not without errors, and there are most definitely many unanswered questions about it.

 

Have a good new year my friends.

Have a good 2011 to you too.

[★ Citsonga ★]

For someone who's "got to have the last word," you sure have avoided a LOT of points made in this thread. Should I repost everything of mine that you have avoided?

 

By the way, got any more April Fools jokes for us? Sorry, maybe I stepped over the line there, but I still find it a bit humorous about how you tried to keep that April Fools joke as alleged evidence even after it was pointed out to you that it was an obvious April Fools joke.

 

Anyway, have a Happy New Year!

 

Cits, the problem is I don't have the time to get the last word! LOL For this, you never have to worry. Besides, what isw the last word? And what does it mean? It was really just meant for a joke. I have leaned a long time ago its always best to give the last word to another.

 

I realized you were joking. I was half joking as well.

 

Though, of course, I was serious about how there's been a lot that I've said that you haven't replied to. That's ok, I know there's a lot to take in here. A lot of what I've mentioned so far is stuff that took me quite some time to realize, so I honestly can't expect you to completely "get it" in the short time we've been chatting here.

 

The irony is that if I had come across this site a decade ago, I probably would have been doing exactly what you're doing, trying to defend the Bible with tired old apologetics arguments that are actually full of holes.

 

Concerning the points that I have avoided, my friend, you are right. Not because I do not want to or do not plan to get there, my friend, but time always wins the race. I am presently working on the prophecy fulfillment part of one of your threads. This could take a bit longer, however. Some tough questions, or though it seems LOL. I appreciate them.

 

Good luck, you'll need it.

 

I say that lightheartedly, but there's also a serious element to it.

 

In saying that, please feel free, and in fact, it would be appreciated, if you would go back and re post some of the great post you that you have typed. If you do, I will save them in my personal file and get to them in time. At least this way, I will always have them handy.

 

Well, if you're going through the prophecies stuff, then I know there's a lot there. And the cruelties stuff I've already posted twice (the verses commanding the killing of children, rape victims having to marry their rapists, sanctioned slavery, etc). I've just made several posts in the other thread, so at this time I don't think I'll go back and repost everything that hasn't been addressed (though I may later repost some of them so they don't get completely lost in the shuffle).

 

There is one, though, that should be really simple for you, so I will repost it here:

 

I personally take everything in the bible literal except what is clearly other.

 

That's the stance I took as a Christian too.

 

For the fun of it, let's play a little game. I'll post a couple random Bible passages, and you tell me what (if anything) isn't literal. Here we go:

 

Mark 1

[1] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

[2] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

[3] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[5] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[6] And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

[7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

[8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

[11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[12] And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

[13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

[14] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

Matthew 8

[1] When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

[2] And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

[3] And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

[4] And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

[14] And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

[15] And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

 

So, out of these 30 verses, what is not literal? And is everything else meant literally? Have fun evaluating, though it should be pretty simple.

 

I am quite curious what you'd say about these.

 

Have a good new year my friends.

 

You too, man!

[★ Citsonga ★]

God DOES heal amputees - Today's Christian Videos

 

http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=77KG7NNX

 

That's a lengthy video, I'll have to get back to it when I've got more time.

 

OK, I finally took some time to watch that video. I watched the first 15 minutes, anyway, which gives her story. Once all the praise mantras started, I couldn't stomach it anymore.

 

At any rate, is this really the best you can offer? Some woman claiming to be in the process of having an amputated leg healed? Come on, man, where is her fully restored leg? Oh, that's right, it doesn't exist!

 

Here are some good points made by a science blogger:

 

This page shows several X-rays and MRIs of Carole's stump, supposedly documenting this regrowth, which, as of 2002, Carole claims to include the regrowth of the quadriceps, anterior tibialis, and gastrocnemius muscles, although there is no documentation of this specific point in any of the reports. In fact, I notice that the X-rays and MRIs are shown, but no radiology reports accompany them to back up Carole's claims and no direct statements from doctors, just Carole's account that the doctors described her progress as a "miracle." If you scroll down the page to the MRI from December 13, 2006 and compare it to the MRI from July 25, 2002 and the X-rays from 1995, you'll see that there really is no significant "regrowth." True, there does appear to be some remodeling of soft tissue and bone, but that's to be expected after her operation in 1995. In fact, even if you believe that there's been some bone lengthening, the amount of lengthening observed over six years looks trivial on her imaging studies. Even if her leg truly were regenerating, at the rate documented on her website, I can safely (and sadly) conclude that Carole will almost certainly die of old age before she regrows enough bone to mean anything.

 

Let me ask you something: If you were a doctor, had a patient with a limb that was regenerating 20 years after it had been amputated because of trauma, and had compelling, unequivocal evidence to prove it, what would you do? I know what I'd do. I'd submit a case report to the New England Journal of Medicine! That's what I'd do. If I had the goods that proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt, Carole would be world-famous, and so would I!

 

In the end, although I'm sure it's comforting to Carole that she feels so loved by Jesus, she is deluding herself if she thinks that Jesus is growing her a new leg, which is one reason that I considered her story too depressing for an installment of YFDoW. However, I have to wonder why she thinks she is so blessed. She's had a hard life, with a veritable panoply of injuries and illnesses, including two auto collisions, one of which claimed her leg, a heart valve disorder causing her angina, a serious injury to her rotator cuff, serious difficult swallowing due to scleroderma, and a variety of other health problems of hers and in her family. If Jesus was responsible for her improvement after each of these illnesses, why is it that He doesn't get the blame for inflicting these injuries and illnesses on her in the first place?

 

Whatever the reason, even after seeing Carole's story, I conclude that the question still stands: If faith healing can work such miracles, why can't it regrow an amputated limb? Carole may think she is "kicking Satan in the teeth with her new leg," but there's no evidence that there's any new leg to begin with, much less one long enough and strong enough to knock out Satan's teeth.

 

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/10/jesus_is_growing_her_a_new_leg.php

 

So, once again, why won't God heal amputees? Are the only miracles that God can perform just things that can also happen naturally? Could it be that all we really do have are things happening naturally?

[the stranger]

There is one, though, that should be really simple for you, so I will repost it here:

 

View PostCitsonga, on 17 December 2010 - 08:48 PM, said:

 

View Postthe stranger, on 07 December 2010 - 07:37 PM, said:

I personally take everything in the bible literal except what is clearly other.

 

 

That's the stance I took as a Christian too.

 

For the fun of it, let's play a little game. I'll post a couple random Bible passages, and you tell me what (if anything) isn't literal. Here we go:

 

Mark 1

[1] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

[2] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

[3] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[5] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[6] And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

[7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

[8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

[11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[12] And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

[13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

[14] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

Matthew 8

[1] When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

[2] And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

[3] And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

[4] And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

[14] And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

[15] And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

 

 

So, out of these 30 verses, what is not literal? And is everything else meant literally? Have fun evaluating, though it should be pretty simple.

 

 

I am quite curious what you'd say about these.

 

 

After reading all verses posted above, I have no reason not to take every one of them literal. I have read every one. What one do you think is not, rather, what one do you think is real?

[★ Citsonga ★]

After reading all verses posted above, I have no reason not to take every one of them literal. I have read every one. What one do you think is not, rather, what one do you think is real?

 

So, just for confirmation, you're insisting that everything there is meant literally, correct?

[the stranger]

BRING IT ON BIG BOY! LOL

 

What ya got, Cits?

[★ Citsonga ★]

After reading all verses posted above, I have no reason not to take every one of them literal. I have read every one. What one do you think is not, rather, what one do you think is real?

 

So, just for confirmation, you're insisting that everything there is meant literally, correct?

 

BRING IT ON BIG BOY! LOL

 

What ya got, Cits?

 

Well, I'll take that as a "Yes." Are you really ready for this? Let's take another look at one of the texts that you've said are meant literally:

 

Matthew 8

[5] And when

Jesus

was entered into Capernaum,

there came unto him a centurion,

beseeching him,

[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

 

Since you've agreed that this text is clearly meant literally, that means that the Centurion really went to Jesus and conversed with him.

 

Now I'd like for you to take a look at Luke's version of this story:

 

Luke 7

[1] Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

[2] And a certain

centurion's

servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.

[3] And when he heard of Jesus, he

sent unto him the elders of the Jews,

beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

[4] And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:

[5] For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.

[6] Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house,

the centurion sent friends to him,

saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:

[7] Wherefore

neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee:

but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.

[8] For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

[9] When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[10] And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

 

Here we see that the version of this story in Luke has the Centurion NOT going to Jesus, but instead sending elders and friends, and then even giving an excuse for why he himself did not go to Jesus.

 

So, Matthew says that the Centurion DID go to Jesus, and Luke says that the Centurion did NOT go to Jesus.

 

You've already acknowledged that Matthew's version was clearly meant literally, so you can't weasel out of this contradiction by using the tired old apologetics claim that Matthew didn't mean that the Centurion literally went to Jesus.

 

CHECKMATE, Stranger!

[the stranger]

That's pretty good, Cits, I gotta hand it to ya. Let me check to see if everything else in the story appears to be the same one. There has to be a secret bishop around here somewhere. LOL

 

I have not the time at the moment to check it out, but I will write it down and get to it ASAP. If I can find to real logical explanation with this account, you got me. I will admit defeat only after I check the places of my rooks, biships, and maybe even a sneaky pawn.

[the stranger]

MY FRIENDS, THIS IS CONCERNING THE SCRIPTURES OF THE CENTURION AND THE HEALING OF HIS SERVANT. CAN THESE VERSES IN MATHEW AND LUKE BE PUT TOGETHER WITH HARMONY?

 

====================================================================================

 

define Centurion

 

 

 

CENTURION

Pronunciation (US):

 

Dictionary entry overview: What does centurion mean?

 

• CENTURION (noun)

The noun CENTURION has 1 sense:

 

1. (ancient Rome) the leader of 100 soldiers

 

Familiarity information: CENTURION used as a noun is very rare.

 

Dictionary entry details

 

• CENTURION (noun)

 

Sense 1 centurion [bACK TO TOP]

 

Meaning:

 

(ancient Rome) the leader of 100 soldiers

 

Classified under:

 

Nouns denoting people

 

Hypernyms ("centurion" is a kind of...):

 

warrior (someone engaged in or experienced in warfare)

 

Domain category:

 

antiquity (the historic period preceding the Middle Ages in Europe)

 

Domain region:

 

capital of Italy; Eternal City; Italian capital; Roma; Rome (capital and largest city of Italy; on the Tiber; seat of the Roman Catholic Church; formerly the capital of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire)

 

http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/centurion.htm

 

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Matthew 8:5-13

 

 

 

The Faith of the Centurion

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

 

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

 

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

 

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

 

Luke 7

The Faith of the Centurion

1 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.

 

He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

 

9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%208:5-13;Luke%207:1-10&version=NIV

 

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FIRST -- A COUPLE OF QUICK POINTS

 

(1) It is a given fact that those who read the bible to be literal know that Jesus and any of his followers walked to where ever they went. Now even if some who were following Jesus had animals, they still only went at the pace that Jesus was walking.

 

(2) If we define a Centurion as a leader of a hundred soldiers, and one who went to war often, than though not directly stated, we can assume that horses were very much used by this group of people, even more so when you consider the time, the place, and the money support from the Government that was very likely.

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Let us see if a new way of reading these scriptures together could possibly fit in.

 

1 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.

 

###################################################################################

 

( Here we see Jesus first entering the city of Capernaum. We see the Centurions sent elders of the Jews to find and ask Jesus to heal this Centurions servant, and giving the reason why they deemed him worthy of this request, though he was not Jewish. There is good reason to believe the centurion was not far at all from Jesus location at this point of time.)

 

*****************************************************************************************

 

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

 

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

##########################################################################################

 

( Now Jesus most likely agreed to help out when asked by the elders, and shortly after wards the centurion appears in person.(He could of been just a short way away from the elders) It may sound kind of strange to us, but this was quite common in many of the biblical stories. That is, to send out others, whether servants or family, with often gifts of good will to help perhaps ease the could be tension or just to show good will. In this case, perhaps the centurion not being Jewish, was uneasy about making such a request to the Savior of the Jews (and all man kind). Thus the reason he sent out the Jewish elders, first. Once it had been established that Jesus was willing to help, this is when the centurion appeared, feeling quite unworthy himself, due to his humbleness and knowing he was not of the "chosen people" of the day. This certainly would fit in with the historic facts that we do know for sure.

 

When relating to verse 5, Matthews point was just to ensure the readers knew that Jesus now was at Capernaum, and does not need to imply that the centurion came up to him right after His arrival. This can be shown in modern writing as I have shown on the thread -- http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/page__view__findpost__p__635899 as well is knowing Matthews account often does not follow exact order. The style of writing the story in parts that aim toward your own readers or your own focus points extend way beyond the bible into even modern day writers. For those who say every story has to be a complete story to be true, need only to pick a person of their own liking and compare life events of that person with just four different authors to see and verify this claim for themselves.)

 

****************************************************************************************

 

( So now, in the time right after this passage and right before this next passage, the centurion most likely rode his horse back home to check on his servant. He knew now that Jesus was on His way to heal the sick one. Perhaps being moved by the compassion of Jesus, in His coming to his house to heal this sick one, due to again the fact that he was not Jewish, emotionally overwhelmed him, and thus the increase of his faith and of his feeling unworthy.

 

So thinking all of this over while Jesus is on His way, he decides to have his friends ride out to meet Jesus and relay this message the following message.) ---- it should be noted that another view places the centurion and the entire group staying together for the whole trip back. Being in this large group, the centurion not being right by Jesus, just like in the first meeting, tells his friends to confront Jesus with this message first, and than shows up directly to Jesus after wards. This view I see is a possibility as well.---

 

In my view, however, Jesus was now getting closer to the centurion's house, and the centurion was feeling more unworthy as the minutes went by.)

 

******************************************************************************************

 

He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

 

##########################################################################################################

 

 

( Now perhaps, just like the first time, he sends his friends out first, and himself noting once again his unworthiness, comes to Jesus again, after in his mind, the air has been cleared. By this time it should be noted that Jesus must have been close to his house, perhaps with in feet, and that is why the unworthy centurion states clearly, "I do not deserve to have you come under my roof", shortly after this seen. So here we see both times, first in the city, and then again now near his house, the centurion sending his friends first, and than himself following, as he always placed himself unworthy knowing that he was not a Jew and that Jesus was the King of the Jews.)

 

*************************************************************************************************************

 

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

 

#############################################################################################################

 

Now after hearing this, knowing his humbleness and faith, (the centurion's) Jesus makes his public statement about faith such as this. Jesus did less miracles in His home tow than any others based on lack of faith, or better put and understood, the offensive nature that they had regarding Jesus.

 

 

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.

 

9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

 

#######################################################################################

 

( Now, Jesus touched by the growing faith of the centurion, let all others that were around Him know how pleased that He was with this great faith that this man had. He confirms the suspected feelings of unworthiness because the centurion was not a Jew by stating that people from all over will be sharing in the Kingdom of Heaven, but some of the ones who He came to save (first the Jews, than the rest of the world) would not see heaven, because they would not believe in Jesus.)

 

=======================================================================================

 

Now for those who say, I know this idea did not just pop in your head after hitting it on the stove top, you would be right. I knew something was not right but I could not place my finger on it. This idea came from http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/who-brought-centurions-request-jesus

 

==================================================================================

 

I am going to throw out another authors conclusion, though, we differ a drop. This author places the only personal meeting between Jesus and the centurion near his very house. He bases this on Matthew being proven not to follow exact order often in his book.I kind of prefer the version that is already down, but there is more than one possibility.

 

 

 

Harmonization Defended

As stated earlier, only a plausible explanation of how the events can be

reconciled should be necessary to satisfy any reasonable inquiry into the apparent

discrepancies in these accounts. The objection to this harmonization might be

predicated upon the expression of the centurion that he was unworthy to come to

Jesus. But one must consider all of the human emotions that were involved.

Luke expressed that the servant was dear to the centurion. If pai'" were

instead uiJov" and the matter settled that it was his son, hardly any but the most

hardened in heart would have any difficulty in seeing the man in a distraught

emotional state. So is it so far a stretch to think that this man, away from home,

might have established a close relationship with a young servant with whom he

would have close co ntact on a daily basis? Any number of scenarios is possible that

would lead to the development of this kind of relationship. Such is not vain

imagining but recognition that Scrip ture records the real lives of real people.

At the same time, the centurion was apparently devout. Though not a

proselyte, he presumably was a God-fearer, having built the Jewish synagogue at his

own expense and being highly commended by the Jewish leaders. His exemplary

faith is the capstone for his integrity and character. Yes, he is a soldier—battlehardened,

a leader. Yet, Scripture seems to shine a favorable light on the character

of men in this position (M ark 15:39; Luke 23:47; Acts 10:22; 22:26; 27:43).

The scene could have unfolded as follows: The centurion had a dying

servant who was dear to him. Having heard of Jesus’ healing ministry (this was not

His first entry into the city—Luke 4:31) and having believed in Him, he knew that

 

the Master co uld heal the boy. Yet, the boy was paralyzed by illness and great agony

and unable to be moved. The centurion, being a Gentile and understanding that Jesus

was from God, could not see himself going directly to Jesus to ask on behalf of this

servant nor having Jesus come to his home.53 He could, however, summon some

Jewish leaders of the synagogue which he built at his own expense, to go on his

behalf. They did and Jesus began to return to the ho use with them.

As Jesus came near, the centurion was horrified that Jesus might actually

come under his roof. So he sent some friends to explain the case. As they went and

engaged Jesus, the centurion while watching could contain himself no longer. He

overrode his conviction about not being worthy to go and went anyway.54 When he

reached Jesus, he stated directly the seriousness of the matter, perhaps to justify his

coming against his conviction. Jesus, having heard once already that He need not be

present to heal the boy, elicited the response directly from the lips of the man

himself. Now, having heard it twice, once indirectly and once directly, He turned to

those who had been following Him and made the statement comparing the

centurion’s faith to any that H e had seen thus far among the people of Israel— His

people who should have recognized Him. He made it once and then emphatically

restated it. The unabashed faith of this Gentile centurion prompted Jesus to teach

about the nature of those who will enter the kingdom and those who will be left out.

People of faith will be included, people who depend on heritage and works will be

excluded.

Finally, He responded directly to the centurion that he could return home,

assured that what he had requested had been accomplished, just as he believed it

would. Whether or not he tarried or went home is not stated. B ut, his messengers did

return to find that the boy had, in fact, been healed that very hour

 

===========================================

 

Much more can be found in his article by going to http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17c.pdf

===================================================================================

 

 

 

 

In conclusion for myself, I understand why and how this is a tough one to understand. I had to get some other ideas myself before coming to a conclusion. If it was not a proven fact that writings even of today hold the same issues to grapple with, I may have had a harder time with this one. Again, every author puts down what they feel is most important defending their story and displaying their message.

 

Now of course, many will say hoogy boogy boo and what a bunch of sloppytoppedylop, and I understand that. This is not 100% factual and yes, it is based on assuming. But than again, by not believing something like this as a possibility, you are also assuming. You are assuming again that the bible has laid every fact out there in order and in every book. The problem? We already know that this is not the case.

 

MY TEST TO YOU: CAN YOU PROOF THAT THIS IS NOT A POSSIBILITY? Now if we already know that the bible rarely includes the story in its fullness, then we can assume right of the top, that we will have to make assumptions one way or the other.

 

Now some may say, that is just too far out, but considering the story in context, and realizing that this sort of set up, greeters before the greeter, was common in this day, and the fact that also common in the day was for armies to have horses, it does not seem to me to take anything out of possible context.

 

Now I have also read other explanations with the same sort of theme, though some minor differences, that could also be right. There is more, and always will be more, than one possibility when we have to assume a little (or try our best to fit in the pieces) because the full facts are rarely there. Choose to believe or not to believe, but I see these scriptures as possible to put together with harmony.

 

 

 

GOD BLESS (over reason LOL)

 

 

 

Now if refuted and claimed that this is not a possibility, please show me in the scripture why this could not be the case. Missing pieces does not equate to two different puzzles. For the bible to be proofed wrong beyond explanation, one would have to be able to put the same event, with the same time, stating that the other version is not possibly. In other words, there can be no way of tying the two versions together.

 

Now you may say,"that is impossible!" but I have already shown in the link provided earlier, that this does happen, and is possible, in modern day writing.

[Darklady]

Well that was very twisted reasoning.I can't believe that I even sat here and worked my way through it. I expect we could reconcile all sorts of unrelated events by using that kind of weird logic. By then that is what I have seen from deluded xians here.