Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Ouroboros]

How can you come here and say these things? Have you no compassion? I am just completely gob-smacked by this post.

It's just the typical Christian showing his "sensitive" and "loving" side. Nothing new.

 

They hate the sin and hate people more, just like their God.

 

Ouroboros - I don't usually jump into conversations that are directed at other people, but I know what it is like to pray for something so important that it consumes your life for years and years, then realise that you have been wasting your time, and how heart broken that can leave you. then to have some idiot post something like that, I was completely taken aback.

I hope your exam went well, and you son gets all the continuing medical care he needs.

The Christian self-indulgent supercilious attitude bugs the hell out of me. Some of them are nice, but some of them are just so full of their own shit... well, you've seen it.

 

I was not in my best shape today for the test. I had to spend the whole time to get it done. Well, actually, I did complete it about 1/2 hour before the finish, and had the time to go over again. Two of the problems were such a headache. Just because I was tired, I didn't see the simple solution on the first one. Then it just clicked, and I got the answer quickly. The other one, it just didn't come out right, until I realized I made a stupid mistake in the middle and had to erase most of it. It looks like I got it. The last problem... I don't know. That one I probably lost.

[Guest Spinoza]

 

 

 

Love .....

[Thumbelina]

Hi Ouroboros, I wanted to get back to this sooner but ol' Luci' or one of his agents, wanted to prevent me by working through one of the most ornery people on this planet.

 

Thumbelina: Who says your prayers weren't answered just because they weren't answered the way you wanted them to be answered?

 

 

Ouroboros: Because the things we prayed for never happened. We still have a son in a wheelchair, and one of the lawyers is still an asshole, and so on...

 

Pray to your God that my son is healed. If he walks by his own power, muscles regenerated, spinal cord healed, and all the other problems gone, then I promise you, I will believe. So I'm waiting for your God to show himself.

 

I'm sorry about the situation you are in; I realize that as a father your heart is breaking over your child's situation While I am not in your shoes I have heard a lot of testimonies from others who have been through sheer hell and they did not give up on God.

 

I've seen one woman who lost her son because her father's pit-bull killed him. She was depressed and did not realize it until she was at church and saw a little boy who looked similar to her son and who was sick and the church had been praying for him and he was healed. She said she snapped at that point, she was SEETHING with rage but she was not saying anything to anyone. It started coming out in her actions at home. She did not talk to God for months, all this happened while she was leading a ministry in church and going through all the motions and counseling others. She told God, you can heal him but you couldn't save my son? (I don't remember what she said verbatim)

 

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

This is hard for us to comprehend but God is working for our greater good and it is hard for us to see God when we do go through crucibles. To an unbeliever this will be nonsense but to the believer it gives comfort and hope.1 Peter 4:12-13 says "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

 

I've seen a family who lost loved ones in a car accident. A father and son who both lost their wives in the same accident. The father said the first time he ever kissed a woman was when he kissed his wife on their wedding day and the son ( a contemporary fellow) said that the same thing happened to him, the first time he kissed was his wife on their wedding day. They both saw the accident for they were in a different car (I think they were moving) and the father said that when he got to his wife's car and he touched her he realized her neck was broken and she was dead. The father said that he never blamed God but he did say that he worshipped his wife, even ahead of God. God does not like idolatry (not because of His sake, but for the sake of the creature) and the man recognized this. He now has the closest walk with God that he ever had in his life.

 

Elie Wiesel went through hell in Auschwitz and Buchenwald but he did not give up on God; actually I heard that God was with those Jews (those who CHOSE for Him to be) in their crucible. Etched in one of the walls was "God was here".

People who went through Katrina said God was there.

 

I tend not to watch the news, it will depress me. When I do, I see/hear some things that make me say "God, what is going on?!" Eg. earlier this year, a teenaged boy who was working at a dunking donuts fell in a man hole and he subsequently drowned in a sea of sewage, that made me cry, I mean, he was working an honest job so he can go to school. Then, a few months ago I was reading a testimony from some folk who belong to my community of faith and it gave me some perspective, that we may not always comprehend certain situations. The family said that their son who was a good boy and active Christian and he drowned. The villagers in the Spanish-speaking country felt so sorry for the family but they were amazed at how good the family was coping and it opened up conversations that led them to introduce the villagers to Jesus. Their son used to witness to the villagers but his death got more conversions.

 

The bible says in Romans 2:8 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose." It says NOT that all things are good but they work together for good, God wants to save as many as He can; we experience physical death (and it is PAINFUL) now as an example, to help us choose if we want eternal nonexistence.

 

I don't know how unbelievers survive tragedies without God, I really don't.

 

 

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

[Thumbelina]

This song gives me comfort:

[Guest Valk0010]

This song gives me comfort:

 

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Thumbalina your post sickens me. Please never try to comfort someone who has lost a loved one.

 

Loving an invisible man in the sky more than your family is disgusting and you try to turn it into some kind of wonderful goal, that having your loved ones taken from you is a gift from god because now you can love him best. I have been irritated and amused by you in the past but right now I'm offended. Don't have children. Your idea of love is far too twisted.

[Thumbelina]

@ Valk

 

 

Ah, sweetie pie, you're a deluded pessimist so I won't hold it against ya.

[Deva]

Elie Wiesel went through hell in Auschwitz and Buchenwald but he did not give up on God; actually I heard that God was with those Jews (those who CHOSE for Him to be) in their crucible. Etched in one of the walls was "God was here".

People who went through Katrina said God was there.

 

 

Thumbelina, this post is about the most nauseating thing I have read on this site in years. The above statement is an insult to the victims of Katrina and the holocaust. I am sure you are completely unable to imagine why.

 

The Jewish God is not your Jesus, for one thing. You have no respect or compassion. Your post makes me wonder if you live a particularly sheltered life or just don't think much about suffering.

 

To just dismiss what happened in Katrina with "God was there," is an insult to those who died and those who were displaced and lost everything. Your God being there while he is gone from somewhere else? How does that even make sense?

[kittypaws]

she was dead. The father said that he never blamed God but he did say that he worshipped his wife, even ahead of God. God does not like idolatry (not because of His sake, but for the sake of the creature) and the man recognized this. He now has the closest walk with God that he ever had in his life.

 

Seriously, WTF? You're saying God killed the man's wife because he loved her "too much"? This is really sickening as is the rest of your message. I realise you mean well but you're being very offensive. Please stop making excuses for your God; I'm pretty damn sure they're not helping to bring a single ex-Christian "closer to God". I'm so glad this God of yours doesn't exist because he would be a monster.

[Wandering_Cookie]

Holy crap, Thumbelina. If you were in the Human Centipede, you'd be the "B".

[Antlerman]

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

...

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

Have you ever stopped to look beyond the words you use and consider them in a different light? Now I'm not meaning the following to be insulting but to try to provoke some depth of consideration for you. Don't consider me as some 'skeptic', or antagonist in my analogy, I do mean this with respect.

 

If I substitute the words "house elf" for God and "book of magic" for Bible in your paragraph above, and you will see how it reads like you imagine God like some magic-performing elf who spends his existence trying to do things for people. It is exactly the same words, with its main character being a house elf instead of the eternal God. See how perfectly it becomes a child's imagination story about a world of Magic....

 

 

The Story of Angie and Her House Elf

 

"After months of her giving her house elf the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her book of magic and then she told her house elf "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the book of magic down; so there she was, not talking to him or reading the book of magic and yet actively involved in with her spell casting group. Her house elf did not give up on her just like they don't not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer relationship with her house elf, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in her relationship with him."

 

Now my point is to show how you imagine God like a child imagines creatures of special magic in the world, doing things behind the scenes all centered on the individual they belong to. You interpret events and motivations of others and yourself as all being orchestrated by this powerful creature of magic. It is very clear in your words this is how you imagine God. A God who places you as the center of his special activities. You are the center.

 

Just as very young children who imagine the world controlled and influenced by Magic, eventually mature to see that those same things they interpreted with the use of symbolic characters, actually have considerable depth and value beyond the overly simplistic and underdeveloped ways they translated them to their minds. What the failure is for you in speaking to someone like Ourobours is that you are asking him to go back to thinking like a child about these things. You are asking him to imagine the world of the house elf, when he now knows the elf doesn't exist, and a much larger, less magical imagination is required to face this new reality that appears before him, like growing from 5 years old into your late teens, and even further into full adulthood as an example of how much larger and complex understandings and relations need to become in those new spaces.

 

I'm not saying God is a house elf, and house elves don't exist, so therefore their is no God. I don't say that. I say that your house elf is how you imagine God, how you interact with the world. "When I was a child, I thought as a child, I spake as a child. But when I became mature I put away childish things". The problem appears for you is that you can't imagine "God" beyond being that elf, and you try to make sense of everything to continue to support the way your symbolic system. That is not a faith in something Greater, that you reach towards in maturity, that is clinging to childish things.

 

It would appear then that you need others to accept your characters and imaginations to support you remaining where you are in your path of growing. Instead of trying to get us who used to think like you with the house elf working his magic behind the scenes in our lives just for us, it might be time to try to start to see the world through those of your peers who are growing up. I say this because it could be of benefit to you. So you know, I don't believe that no longer believing in a house elf means you must no longer believe in God. It simply means that things are beyond what you imagine. I'd say you would benefit by opening your thoughts - without closing your heart. It's not a choice of how you believe, or becoming a "God denier", as you might see it. It's growing into something Larger than your imaginations. That's all. That can be God for you. It's not "leaving God", it's growing up and leaving childish imaginations for maturing ones.

[Ouroboros]

Hi Ouroboros, I wanted to get back to this sooner but ol' Luci' or one of his agents, wanted to prevent me by working through one of the most ornery people on this planet.

Maybe if you take Ol' Lucy out for a dinner or a makeover, she might be nicer. Do something nice for her for Christmas.

 

 

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

"He... created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing." That's exactly what I'm waiting for!

 

I have waiting for years to hear or see anything that would be above and beyond natural and obvious from God. But to no avail. So I know that there are only two answers: 1) God doesn't want to or 2) God doesn't exist. So I looked into all the other so-called proofs of the Christian God and realized it's all made up. It's just human inventions. So it makes sense that it's more likely option 2). God does not exist. Until proven differently, I will maintain that position.

 

So ask your God to "create circumstances" that I will know is your God's doing. But all I hear from all Christians all the time is words, words, words... Blah, blah, blah. There is no content. There are no miracles. But they have stories to tell. Oh, yeah. Stories only, but never anything that actually is tangible for me. If you want to save me, and if you want to convert me, then you have to give me what I need, not give me a story about what someone else needed.

 

The father said that he never blamed God but he did say that he worshipped his wife, even ahead of God. God does not like idolatry (not because of His sake, but for the sake of the creature) and the man recognized this. He now has the closest walk with God that he ever had in his life.

That was never my problem. I put the God above my family when I was Christian. I neglected my responsibilities and my family constantly because God was more important. So that doesn't apply to me.

 

Elie Wiesel went through hell in Auschwitz and Buchenwald but he did not give up on God; actually I heard that God was with those Jews (those who CHOSE for Him to be) in their crucible. Etched in one of the walls was "God was here".

People who went through Katrina said God was there.

That's how those people felt about God. They had a feeling that God existed, I don't. I don't have a feeling that God exist. I don't hear any voices. I don't see any writings on the wall. I don't see miracles in my daily life. I don't see any angels. I don't have that childhood belief in Santa. So to overcome that, there has to be a bigger miracle than ever to convince me that your God exists.

 

I tend not to watch the news, it will depress me. When I do, I see/hear some things that make me say "God, what is going on?!" Eg. earlier this year, a teenaged boy who was working at a dunking donuts fell in a man hole and he subsequently drowned in a sea of sewage, that made me cry, I mean, he was working an honest job so he can go to school. Then, a few months ago I was reading a testimony from some folk who belong to my community of faith and it gave me some perspective, that we may not always comprehend certain situations. The family said that their son who was a good boy and active Christian and he drowned. The villagers in the Spanish-speaking country felt so sorry for the family but they were amazed at how good the family was coping and it opened up conversations that led them to introduce the villagers to Jesus. Their son used to witness to the villagers but his death got more conversions.

Yes, very emotional and touching... and what does it prove? That people fall for religious ideas in times when they're emotional fragile? Doesn't prove God. Doesn't prove Jesus. And most definitely, does not prove a miracle.

 

I don't know how unbelievers survive tragedies without God, I really don't.

Actually, we survived our tragedy better by losing our faith. Me, my wife, and my kids, all lost our faith in the imaginary God who was created by humans with a lot of emotional needs.

 

But I do understand what you're talking about. A lot of people, or most people, can't handle reality without having some imaginary being they can call for help to. I get that. It does help to have that delusion. But I can't make myself delusional like that. It's just imaginary and fiction. I can't just make myself believe the water-bottle on my desk is a magical genie that can transform into an invisible googaplonk that will remove all my pains and sufferings. I can't.

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

The problem though is that I don't feel any God or God-presence, and I don't believe or have faith. I just think your God is a human invention just like Santa Claus. Your God is nothing but an idea, a concept, a symbol for the eternal but not really a real being. So I need something more than just your words to be convinced. Telling me that God won't give that to me will not convince me that he exists. It's just a cop-out from a follower (like you) to avoid the responsibility of nothing happening. Basically, it's just your way of getting out from the situation when you pray and God doesn't do anything (because he doesn't exist) and you can excuse your imaginary God from not doing anything.

 

I can pray to my magical pet-rock too. And look! Nothing happened! That's evidence that the magical pet-rock is real, because he said "no"! Cool!

[Ouroboros]

Ah, sweetie pie, you're a deluded pessimist so I won't hold it against ya.

Which makes you a deluded optimist.

[bdp]

I don't think I would feel all self-congratulatory that people run to one's particular deity figure when they are frightened of death.

 

I've faced death head on. It did not send me running to 'god' but woke me up to how tragically I was wasting the one and only life I'll ever have in the thralls of mythical, religious nonsense (Christianity, in case there's any doubt). 'Lord save me'? No, more like 'wake the fuck up, idiot!'

[Darklady]

Thumbalina your post sickens me. Please never try to comfort someone who has lost a loved one.

 

Loving an invisible man in the sky more than your family is disgusting and you try to turn it into some kind of wonderful goal, that having your loved ones taken from you is a gift from god because now you can love him best. I have been irritated and amused by you in the past but right now I'm offended. Don't have children. Your idea of love is far too twisted.

 

I agree, Midnight, her post to ouroboros was very offence and sickening. it showed such a lack of maturity and compassion and I expect there are a number of people here who are very angered by her presence here.

I have no problem with debates on the fairy tale that is god, but this type of self righteous nastiness is totally unnecessary.

[Ouroboros]

Thumbalina your post sickens me. Please never try to comfort someone who has lost a loved one.

 

Loving an invisible man in the sky more than your family is disgusting and you try to turn it into some kind of wonderful goal, that having your loved ones taken from you is a gift from god because now you can love him best. I have been irritated and amused by you in the past but right now I'm offended. Don't have children. Your idea of love is far too twisted.

 

I agree, Midnight, her post to ouroboros was very offence and sickening. it showed such a lack of maturity and compassion and I expect there are a number of people here who are very angered by her presence here.

I have no problem with debates on the fairy tale that is god, but this type of self righteous nastiness is totally unnecessary.

As much as it sickens and anger me when they do it, it also pleasures me to see them expose their real inside. What is inside them, that's what is coming out. You squeeze the lemon, which is all pretty and yellow on the outside, and you get lemon juice.

[Dagan]

A bunch of nauseating pedantic and condescending putrescence which could only have been written by someone who has never experienced any real loss in her life

 

I used to try and rationalize stuff like you do. God has a plan, I just don't understand.

 

Then one day I realized that the world with God looks exactly like the world without God. So either God orchestrates a whole lot of human suffering and misery and sends billions of people to hell as part of some mysterious unknowable plan, and only helps Christians get parking spots close to the mall entrance and heals granny johnson's nagging cough for a couple weeks, or... there is no God and life is just human beings trying to make order out of chaos, hurting each other, loving each other, hating each other, helping each other, and this world is what we've got.

 

The latter is what I came to believe.

 

Is it time for you to shake the dust from your sandals and move on to the next town yet? I hope so.

[★ Citsonga ★]

First off, do you realize that Muslim apologists equally point to Koran passages as examples of "scientific accuracy" in the Koran before the details were known by science? And does that validate the Koran?

 

Second, how many creation myths don't have a "beginning" of sorts? Are all those other creation myths scientifically accurate because of having beginnings?

 

An interesting comparison between the two religions can be found here -- My link

 

# The sources of the Koran - Muhammad was illiterate. He depended on oral information from Christians and especially from Jews. The corruption of oral transmission explains the inaccuracies of the stories. Historical errors include: Mary being the sister of Aaron(S. 3:31ff), Haman being Pharaoh's minister (S.28:38), and the conflation of Gideon and Saul (S. 2:250). There are contradictory attitudes toward non-Muslims. S. 2:189 says to fight against unbelievers and Suratut-Taubah says to make war on those who disagree, but S. 2:579 says there is no compulsion in religion and S. 24:45 says to dispute only kindly with Jews and Christians.

# If we strip away the commentary, the Koran is inexplicable. Muslim theologians explain the contradictions by trying to put ayat (verses) in a historical context and by appealing to the doctrine of abrogated and abrogating verses. Without the commentary the Koran is completely garbled and meaningless.

 

My link

 

Allot of info on this one, but some good stuff.

 

My real point? No other books can be compared with the bible or anywhere close to it's standards.

 

Sigh. I've seen that sort of stuff before. Yes, Christians can point out problems with Islam and then claim victory. In turn, Muslims can point out problems in Christianity and then claim victory. Both sides do the same thing. The fact is that there are problems with both, and each only want to admit to the problems in the opposing camp.

 

For your second question, can you show me some myths that do not have a beginning? My post was just relaying the account of the bible and of it's science already told clearly. Do you know of any other books with the history of the bible that can even come clo9se to touching these truths?

 

The Bible doesn't come close to touching scientific truths. The Bible says that a bunch of stars can be thrown down to the earth. The Bible says that all the kingdoms of the earth can be seen from a high mountain. These are not exactly consistent with what we now know to be true.

 

Your first reference there is Job 9:8, but let's look at the two verses right before it:

 

Job 9

[6] He shakes the earth from its place

and makes its pillars tremble.

[7] He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;

he seals off the light of the stars.

 

 

Is the earth mounted on pillars? Does the sun cease to shine when we can't see it? Of course not! So much for the bible being "scientific," huh?

 

Oh, and before you come back with the typical response that this was metaphorical, allow me to point out that it's completely absurd to pick and choose what you want to be literal (motivated by the assumption that it fits with science) and what you want to be metaphorical (motivated by the realization that it's nonsensical to be taken literally). The exact same thing can be done with any text, and thus renders the bible no more special than any other book.

 

Well, lets look at it this way. You see it incorrect because you are placing it with known science as we know it, and as we have seen the pictures of. Now place yourself describing the same science but with limitations on your visual concept, and only a partial grasp on the greatness of Gods creation. You have no telescope or satellite to understand what you are explaining, and so you can only do so by ways in which you can relate to others when describing these sorts of things.

 

It sounds here like you're acknowledging that the Bible is just the writings of men from their perspective, that it's not the divinely inspired word of God. That I can definitely agree with. Unfortunately, I suspect that you don't really view it that way, you're just not thinking things through.

 

The revelations of modern science can be found in the bible like no other book in history, but it has to be understood in the understanding of what one could describe or see at that time, with out all of the modern science and it's machinery.

 

Wasn't God capable of understanding modern science?

 

The heavens, earth and light have always been easily observable. Do you really think that that proves anything?

 

visible? Yes. but understood or explained in a way that would later be proven? No.

 

Uh, there is nothing in the description of creating the heavens, earth and light that explains anything beyond what was visible to the authors. It's nothing special at all, you only see it as special because you want to.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Many times in the OT, the righteous felt the effects of the curses when Israel rebelled against God.

 

Let us pretend that we only effected ourselves and curses were only upon ourselves. Could we interact with others as we do. Could we learn to trust, and to not trust. Could we bless others and help others. Could we train and teach others? That is part of living in this world of choices.

 

You could ask, "was it fair that all humans were cursed because of Adam and Eve?"

 

You tell me. Would it be fair for someone to judge and curse you for something someone else did? I'm not talking about simply the natural consequences of someone else's actions, but a legislated curse against you. Would you be down with that?

 

In the OT any animal that was controlled by Satan or used in that regard had to be killed along with the accused.

 

 

First, we cannot relate animals with humans.

 

Humans are animals. We do generally make a distinction between humans and other animals, but even so, is it really justifiable to legislate a curse against all animals for the actions of a select few?

 

Second, what do we really know comparing to the one who created us, and does He not have the right to do His will upon His creation?

 

Nothing, considering that "the one who created us" is conjecture. You assume that your god is the correct god, but everyone else with a different god makes the same assumption about their god. For all we know, you may all be wrong.

 

Let me ask what you think of this: Is right and wrong defined by God's will, or is right and wrong its own issue that God's will lines up on the "right" side of?

 

Thirdly, it is no more unfair to be cursed because of others as it is being blessed because of others. We cannot take one and call it unfair, yet accept the other as expected happenings.

 

Finally, something I can agree with.

 

Many poor, angry at the rich for not sharing their wealth, yet somehow, the rich are not angry with the poor for not sharing their poverty.

 

Huh? Why would someone want poverty to be shared? That doesn't make much sense.

 

It all comes with the territory, just like in school, and most likely among your siblings. It happens on the job, and every where else we look, thus all of these laws that should not need to exist. But do we complain about the blessings of cell phones through new advances? Or air conditioning in the heat? We are good at counting the effects of the curse, but we have a hard time counting our blessings.

 

Stranger, you're still confusing things. When I talk about the unjustness of cursing someone for someone else's crime, I'm talking about the active, legislative kind of curse that the Bible claims God did.

 

Having access cell phones, air conditioning, etc, are simply the natural outcomes of the environment in which some grow up. While it's unfortunate that some don't have the same conveniences that others have, that's a completely separate issue from the claim that an all-powerful God activated a curse on people for something they didn't do.

 

You need to stop confusing the alleged "curse" with natural consequences. They are NOT the same concept!

 

What you're describing here are consequences, but the bible is talking about curses. Those are two different things, my friend.

 

Are they so different? The Israelites and the Egyptian suffered many curses because of one Pharaoh. This entire world including our very own bodies suffer because of the curse.

 

Natural consequences and curses are two different things, period. In the example you give (though undoubtedly made up), it's supposedly curses from God, not simply natural consequences. Do you think it's right to curse some for the actions of another? Would it be right to condemn you for Hitler's actions?

 

It doesn't matter whether or not the snake would have understood what happened, it would have still been cursing it for something it didn't do.

 

So are we (though we all would of made that decision) and so was Jesus, upon His own choice to bring salvation to all.

 

You may want to clarify your point here, because it doesn't quite make sense.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Yet Genesis 3 says that serpent was more crafty than the other animals and spoke. The serpent.

 

Who talked? Satan through the serpent or the serpents as a whole?

 

None of the above. Serpents don't talk, and Satan is make-believe.

 

As far as Genesis 3, it claims that the serpent talked. It does not claim that Satan spoke through the serpent; that's a later concept read back into the story.

 

Look at the preceding verses:

 

Ezekiel 28

[11] The word of the LORD came to me:

[12] "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

"'You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

 

 

Ah, the text is talking about the King of Tyre! Once again, NO mention of satan! It's interesting how you christians are constantly taking things out of context.

 

 

I can understand your confusion here, my friend. We can find over and over in the bible two different meanings, and at times, two different people being addressed by the same passage. But then again, the Holy Spirit can allow us to learn many different ways from one single mistake! What we have to consider is that though it sometimes can be hard to comprehend, most often it is just is hard to comprehend a verse in question to have just one meaning. Like in this case, the king here that is spoken of here most certainly was not in the Garden, right?

 

No, I am not confused on this matter, you are. This passage is specifically stated to be about the King of Tyre. The mention of the garden could be imagery to invoke the supposed great heights from which he came (look at the rest of the passage to see what I mean). Regardless, it is nowhere addressed to Satan.

 

I already pointed out in a previous post that this only says that the serpent was cunning and deceptive, it says nothing about it being satan. (But even if it did, it wouldn't change the fact that Genesis 3 says no such thing.)

 

I have learned long ago my friend, that by using just a scripture or two and not relating things with the correct meaning, which is often best done by relating it to the rest of the bible, we can make the bible say what ever we want to.

 

I have learned long ago, my friend, that trying to force differing Bible passages to agree with each other leads one to twist, contort and jump through hoops.

 

Do you choose whether or not to follow God, or does God choose? Depends on which passage you read.

 

Does God punish children to the third and fourth generation for parents' actions, or are you only held accountable for your own actions? Depends on which passage you read.

 

Did Jesus first reveal his risen self to the disciples in a locked room in Jerusalem or on a mountain in Galilee? Depends on which passage you read.

 

As such, trying to force one passage to mean something other than what it says because of something in another passage is not logically warranted. Period.

 

When putting all of these things together, even you have to admit that it is easier to see the serpent being Satan than just a snake, right?

 

No. There is no reason to assume that the author of Genesis 3 meant something other than what was said simply on the basis of later writings by other people. Religion evolves over time, and it makes perfect sense to see this as being the same sort of thing.

 

Besides, if a perfect God inspired these writings to communicate truths, and if the serpent was Satan, then why wouldn't God convey that right away? Why wait until much later to make that point? Why keep people in the dark for so long? Doesn't it really make more sense to see this as not the work of a perfect God, but rather the evolving religious views of people?

 

Even you confessed by the time Revelation was written, most believed this. I should add to this, and say I doubt there was ever a time when it was not believed as a whole.

 

It came to be a widely accepted interpretation, of course. But forcing a later understanding on an earlier text that says nothing of the sort is not exactly a scholarly approach.

 

If the author of Genesis 3 had really meant that the serpent was controlled by Satan, then why would the author have been deceptive by attributing it to the serpent's cunningness rather than to Satan? Do you not see how patently absurd it gets when you try to read into the story a later belief that is not really supported by the story itself?

 

I know your smarter than me

 

I wouldn't say that. Believe me, I've felt like kicking myself numerous times for having been stupid enough to believe Christianity for as long as I did. In reality, though, it doesn't simply come down to intelligence, because indoctrination level plays a huge role.

 

I *suspect* that I'm a bit older than you and that I've studied more and put more effort and thought into this stuff than you have. Thus, I believe that overall I am a bit more informed than you on the Bible, but that doesn't automatically make you less intelligent than me.

 

Granted, I do know the difference between "your" (denoting ownership) and "you're" (a contraction of "you are," which is what you meant in the quote above), but that's another issue.

 

This way of thinking just makes the most common sense. It is hard to believe it is anything but. Could you really make a case for the other view?

 

Indeed I have made a strong case against your view. Let me say again, if the author of Genesis 3 had really meant that the serpent was controlled by Satan, then why would the author have been deceptive by attributing it to the serpent's cunningness rather than to Satan? Do you not see how patently absurd it gets when you try to read into the story a later belief that is not really supported by the story itself?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Stranger, Dan was a tribe of Israel! The text simply symbolizes Dan as a snake, it says nothing about satan. Man, you're really grasping at straws, aren't you?

 

Interesting enough, not mentioned in the list of Revelation. Point being, the serpent was regarded is trouble, and why was this, if people truly believed it was not Satan that manifested in the serpent.

 

Still grasping at straws, huh?

 

Allow me to point out that the "Twelve Tribes of Israel" changed a few times throughout the Bible. If I recall correctly, there are four different versions. To my recollection, the tribes that sometimes appeared and sometimes didn't appear on the list of the twelve tribes are:

 

Levi

Joseph

Manasseh

Ephraim

Dan

 

Indeed, Dan was left out in the version in Revelation. Bible "scholars" differ on the reason, but it's not the first time a Tribe was dropped from the list of the twelve. (If you want more info on this, I can dig out my old notes on it and post references.)

 

Regardless, it proves nothing about the Genesis 3 author's intended meaning regarding the serpent.

 

I used to hold to the same assumption. The problem, though, is that it is just that: an assumption.

 

Christians assume that the bible is inspired by god, that it's perfect and consistent. In turn, they pick and choose what to take literally and what to take figuratively, based on that assumption. They pick and choose what parts they agree with and then reinterpret other parts to try to make them fit, based on the assumption. Then they claim that they've substantiated their assumption. Do you not see the circular reasoning here?

 

The fact is that the reason the books of the bible were put together is because they were chosen to be canonized by the Council of Nicea in the 300s! They didn't exactly come down from the big guy in the sky on a platter, ya know.

 

The bible is riddled with inconsistencies and problems, my friend. It is not the word of god.

 

Here's a challenge for you: Go through the NT, and every time you see a claim of fulfilled prophecy, look up the original OT text and read it in context to see what it was really about. (This is what made me realize that christianity is baloney.)

 

…I will be looking forward to going through all of these things with you in the future. I have already did as requested many times, concerning OT passages as relating to prophecy in the NT.

 

Oh, I had looked at the "prophecies" many times before too. The problem, though, was that I always approached it through the lens of indoctrination, just as you do. I hadn't really thoroughly considered the OT context and evaluated whether or not the original writings meant what the NT authors claimed, I just blindly accepted the NT claims. Eventually I came to realize how incredibly wrong that stance is, as I have now very thoroughly detailed in post #747 (which I hope you take the time to read).

 

As I sated earlier, many passages have double meanings my friend. One verse does not fit all.

 

Apologists have to come up with some way to try to weasel out of the problem of the NT taking the OT out of context, and the double-meaning is their argument. However, they would NEVER accept that EXACT SAME ARGUMENT from ANYONE of ANY OTHER FAITH. The claim doesn't hold water (and I addressed it in my dealings with some of the passages in post #747; look back for the blue text), and I assure you that even those propagating that claim would not consider it a valid argument if used to support the Koran or some other religious text.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I personally take everything in the bible literal except what is clearly other.

 

That's the stance I took as a Christian too.

 

For the fun of it, let's play a little game. I'll post a couple random Bible passages, and you tell me what (if anything) isn't literal. Here we go:

 

Mark 1

[1] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

[2] As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

[3] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

[4] John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

[5] And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

[6] And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;

[7] And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.

[8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

[10] And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

[11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[12] And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

[13] And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

[14] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

 

Matthew 8

[1] When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

[2] And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

[3] And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

[4] And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

[5] And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

[6] And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

[7] And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

[8] The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

[9] For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

[14] And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

[15] And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.

 

So, out of these 30 verses, what is not literal? And is everything else meant literally? Have fun evaluating, though it should be pretty simple.

[Guest Spinoza]

I remain a Christian, because once you understand that "Jesus is God" .... you can never become an Ex-Christian.

[florduh]

I remain a Christian, because once you understand that "Jesus is God" .... you can never become an Ex-Christian.

If, as you say, "everything is god" then saying that Jesus is god means nothing. If everything is god then nothing is god. The Jesus god will have no other gods entertained because he is a jealous god.

[Guest Spinoza]

I remain a Christian, because once you understand that "Jesus is God" .... you can never become an Ex-Christian.

If, as you say, "everything is god" then saying that Jesus is god means nothing. If everything is god then nothing is god. The Jesus god will have no other gods entertained because he is a jealous god.

 

I believe that God is Love and that THAT is what Jesus came to Teach ..... Love

 

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד. 4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. ה וְאָהַבְתָּ, אֵת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בְּכָל-לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁךָ, וּבְכָל-מְאֹדֶךָ. 5 And thou shalt LOVE the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. ו וְהָיוּ הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם--עַל-לְבָבֶךָ. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; ז וְשִׁנַּנְתָּם לְבָנֶיךָ, וְדִבַּרְתָּ בָּם, בְּשִׁבְתְּךָ בְּבֵיתֶךָ וּבְלֶכְתְּךָ בַדֶּרֶךְ, וּבְשָׁכְבְּךָ וּבְקוּמֶךָ. 7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

 

 

 

And Love your Neighor as your SELF.