Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[★ Citsonga ★]

I know your smarter than me

 

I wouldn't say that. Believe me, I've felt like kicking myself numerous times for having been stupid enough to believe Christianity for as long as I did. In reality, though, it doesn't simply come down to intelligence, because indoctrination level plays a huge role.

 

I *suspect* that I'm a bit older than you and that I've studied more and put more effort and thought into this stuff than you have. Thus, I believe that overall I am a bit more informed than you on the Bible, but that doesn't automatically make you less intelligent than me.

 

Granted, I do know the difference between "your" (denoting ownership) and "you're" (a contraction of "you are," which is what you meant in the quote above), but that's another issue.

 

OK, I just took a look at your profile and saw that you are younger than me, but not as much younger as I had expected.

 

At any rate, it is obvious from your posts that you're operating from a mindset very, very much like I used to have. You've been heavily indoctrinated and have bought into a lot of apologetics claims, and there's a lot of stuff that you simply haven't thought much about.

 

I do really feel for you, man. You make me think of myself from back before I realized how I had been brainwashed. Just like you do here, I attempted to be reasonable in my approach to the faith. Unfortunately for my faith, eventually reason obliterated it. Fortunately for me, though, things make a lot more sense now that I don't have to try to force everything to fit into a preconceived mindset derived from a text written by a bunch of superstitious ancients.

 

Good luck with wherever this stuff takes you. You may just be on the verge of your eyes being opened up....

[Thumbelina]

@ Ouroboros

 

I almost hate to do this but I got to. Ah Matey, we are speaking two completely different languages here

 

 

Re: Post # 812

 

 

Thumbelina: Hi Ouroboros, I wanted to get back to this sooner but ol' Luci' or one of his agents, wanted to prevent me by working through one of the most ornery people on this planet.

 

Ouroboros: Maybe if you take Ol' Lucy out for a dinner or a makeover, she might be nicer. Do something nice for her for Christmas.

 

aghast* Ol' Luci' is Lucifer, aka the devil aka the old serpent aka the father of lies etc. not even God can get ol' Luci' to be nice; force is contrary to His nature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

 

Ouroboros: "He... created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing." That's exactly what I'm waiting for!

I have waiting for years to hear or see anything that would be above and beyond natural and obvious from God. But to no avail. So I know that there are only two answers: 1) God doesn't want to or 2) God doesn't exist. So I looked into all the other so-called proofs of the Christian God and realized it's all made up. It's just human inventions. So it makes sense that it's more likely option 2). God does not exist. Until proven differently, I will maintain that position.

 

So ask your God to "create circumstances" that I will know is your God's doing. But all I hear from all Christians all the time is words, words, words... Blah, blah, blah. There is no content. There are no miracles. But they have stories to tell. Oh, yeah. Stories only, but never anything that actually is tangible for me. If you want to save me, and if you want to convert me, then you have to give me what I need, not give me a story about what someone else needed.

 

Ouroboros, right now you're hurting and you just can't seem to understand right now for " Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: ..." Hebrews 12:11

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thumbelina: The father said that he never blamed God but he did say that he worshipped his wife, even ahead of God. God does not like idolatry (not because of His sake, but for the sake of the creature) and the man recognized this. He now has the closest walk with God that he ever had in his life.

Ouroboros: That was never my problem. I put the God above my family when I was Christian. I neglected my responsibilities and my family constantly because God was more important. So that doesn't apply to me.

 

 

Um, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8 I don't think that is what you meant but there needs to be a balance; love your family but you should have had an attitude of seeking God's will first; God wants us to care for and love our families.

 

 

Thumbelina: Elie Wiesel went through hell in Auschwitz and Buchenwald but he did not give up on God; actually I heard that God was with those Jews (those who CHOSE for Him to be) in their crucible. Etched in one of the walls was "God was here".

People who went through Katrina said God was there.

 

Ouroboros: That's how those people felt about God. They had a feeling that God existed, I don't. I don't have a feeling that God exist. I don't hear any voices. I don't see any writings on the wall. I don't see miracles in my daily life. I don't see any angels. I don't have that childhood belief in Santa. So to overcome that, there has to be a bigger miracle than ever to convince me that your God exists.

 

 

Thumbelina: I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

 

Ouroboros:The problem though is that I don't feel any God or God-presence, and I don't believe or have faith. I just think your God is a human invention just like Santa Claus. Your God is nothing but an idea, a concept, a symbol for the eternal but not really a real being. So I need something more than just your words to be convinced. Telling me that God won't give that to me will not convince me that he exists. It's just a cop-out from a follower (like you) to avoid the responsibility of nothing happening. Basically, it's just your way of getting out from the situation when you pray and God doesn't do anything (because he doesn't exist) and you can excuse your imaginary God from not doing anything.

 

I can pray to my magical pet-rock too. And look! Nothing happened! That's evidence that the magical pet-rock is real, because he said "no"! Cool!

 

 

Feelings aren't safe, we are fickle, our emotions go topsy- turvy. When you got married did you feel married or did you know and understand that you were married?

[Thumbelina]

Ah, sweetie pie, you're a deluded pessimist so I won't hold it against ya.

Which makes you a deluded optimist.

 

 

Valk already told me that, it was a sort of a joke we had hence the *wink*

[Thumbelina]

Thumbalina your post sickens me. Please never try to comfort someone who has lost a loved one.

 

Loving an invisible man in the sky more than your family is disgusting and you try to turn it into some kind of wonderful goal, that having your loved ones taken from you is a gift from god because now you can love him best. I have been irritated and amused by you in the past but right now I'm offended. Don't have children. Your idea of love is far too twisted.

 

I agree, Midnight, her post to ouroboros was very offence and sickening. it showed such a lack of maturity and compassion and I expect there are a number of people here who are very angered by her presence here.

I have no problem with debates on the fairy tale that is god, but this type of self righteous nastiness is totally unnecessary.

As much as it sickens and anger me when they do it, it also pleasures me to see them expose their real inside. What is inside them, that's what is coming out. You squeeze the lemon, which is all pretty and yellow on the outside, and you get lemon juice.

 

 

Ouroboros, surely you realize I did not want to hurt you? You seemed to emotionally misunderstand my post.

 

Excuse me a sec', Ouroboros.

 

Hey!!!!!! you lions that deliberately misunderstood my posts and thereby encouraged Ouroboros to emotionally misunderstand it, that was not nice! It's a sin to encourage others to do wrong too you know. When Ouroboros is not so emotionally engaged I'll have to exhort him to not follow a multitude to do evil; I'm shaking my finger in righteous indignation at you (I'm shy in person but on the net I can do it) However, I am a Christian and Christianity offers GRACE so I forgive you all.

 

Sorry Ouroboros but I had to tell them off; a Christian can't be a dumb dog (cf Isa 58:10) for we are all priests.( 1 Peter 2:9)

 

 

 

 

 

Ouroboros I truly am sorry about your predicament and I hope God answers, well, your former prayers. I will intercede for you

 

Also, if your angry/upset emotions are still too engaged in this topic, if you are unable to look at it objectively then maybe you should let Aman moderate some of these posts.

[Thumbelina]

she was dead. The father said that he never blamed God but he did say that he worshipped his wife, even ahead of God. God does not like idolatry (not because of His sake, but for the sake of the creature) and the man recognized this. He now has the closest walk with God that he ever had in his life.

 

Seriously, WTF? You're saying God killed the man's wife because he loved her "too much"? This is really sickening as is the rest of your message. I realise you mean well but you're being very offensive. Please stop making excuses for your God; I'm pretty damn sure they're not helping to bring a single ex-Christian "closer to God". I'm so glad this God of yours doesn't exist because he would be a monster.

 

 

Merci beaucoup, merci beaucoup, I so appreciate your honesty (what I highlighted in red) The Word basically says that we should look for potential in others, to ask God to help us see others through His eyes, so thanks Alas, it is hard to see good potential in some people, it's like " God, gimme a hubble telescope or something so I can see!" and sometimes He doesn't and I have to go completely on faith and trust Him and pray for the super naughty folks, even the Hitler-ish kind. You are misconstruing the Word you know?

[Thumbelina]

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

...

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

Have you ever stopped to look beyond the words you use and consider them in a different light? Now I'm not meaning the following to be insulting but to try to provoke some depth of consideration for you. Don't consider me as some 'skeptic', or antagonist in my analogy, I do mean this with respect.

 

If I substitute the words "house elf" for God and "book of magic" for Bible in your paragraph above, and you will see how it reads like you imagine God like some magic-performing elf who spends his existence trying to do things for people. It is exactly the same words, with its main character being a house elf instead of the eternal God. See how perfectly it becomes a child's imagination story about a world of Magic....

 

 

The Story of Angie and Her House Elf

 

"After months of her giving her house elf the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her book of magic and then she told her house elf "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the book of magic down; so there she was, not talking to him or reading the book of magic and yet actively involved in with her spell casting group. Her house elf did not give up on her just like they don't not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer relationship with her house elf, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in her relationship with him."

 

Now my point is to show how you imagine God like a child imagines creatures of special magic in the world, doing things behind the scenes all centered on the individual they belong to. You interpret events and motivations of others and yourself as all being orchestrated by this powerful creature of magic. It is very clear in your words this is how you imagine God. A God who places you as the center of his special activities. You are the center.

 

Just as very young children who imagine the world controlled and influenced by Magic, eventually mature to see that those same things they interpreted with the use of symbolic characters, actually have considerable depth and value beyond the overly simplistic and underdeveloped ways they translated them to their minds. What the failure is for you in speaking to someone like Ourobours is that you are asking him to go back to thinking like a child about these things. You are asking him to imagine the world of the house elf, when he now knows the elf doesn't exist, and a much larger, less magical imagination is required to face this new reality that appears before him, like growing from 5 years old into your late teens, and even further into full adulthood as an example of how much larger and complex understandings and relations need to become in those new spaces.

 

I'm not saying God is a house elf, and house elves don't exist, so therefore their is no God. I don't say that. I say that your house elf is how you imagine God, how you interact with the world. "When I was a child, I thought as a child, I spake as a child. But when I became mature I put away childish things". The problem appears for you is that you can't imagine "God" beyond being that elf, and you try to make sense of everything to continue to support the way your symbolic system. That is not a faith in something Greater, that you reach towards in maturity, that is clinging to childish things.

 

It would appear then that you need others to accept your characters and imaginations to support you remaining where you are in your path of growing. Instead of trying to get us who used to think like you with the house elf working his magic behind the scenes in our lives just for us, it might be time to try to start to see the world through those of your peers who are growing up. I say this because it could be of benefit to you. So you know, I don't believe that no longer believing in a house elf means you must no longer believe in God. It simply means that things are beyond what you imagine. I'd say you would benefit by opening your thoughts - without closing your heart. It's not a choice of how you believe, or becoming a "God denier", as you might see it. It's growing into something Larger than your imaginations. That's all. That can be God for you. It's not "leaving God", it's growing up and leaving childish imaginations for maturing ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

With all due respect but *raised eyebrow* to you Aman.

 

Ah, the usual atheistic pastime of taking texts out of contexts and forming pretexts so they can "disprove" the bible but you overlooked verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 13

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I ADMIT that I and every other believer need to do what is contained in Corinthians 13 but to admit needs and wrongs is the majority of the solution for God to work with us.

'>Matthew 18:3 says, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. The "Except" and "ye shall not" are NOT relative terms.

 

I was speaking to Ouroboros as an implied reader, meaning, based on the conversation I expected him to understand where I was coming from but then I forget that there are a lot of convoluted teachings in Christianity and maybe he was exposed to some of it. Like 'if you just have enough faith, God will answer all your prayers the way you want.' The problem with that is that it is teaching people to have faith in faith instead of faith in God. Faith is having a trusting confidence in God, it's believing that He is who He says He is and that He is able to do the things He says He can and will do. Like muscles, faith grows when it is exercised. So Aman, based on what Ouroboros told me:

" Because the things we prayed for never happened. We still have a son in a wheelchair, and one of the lawyers is still an asshole, and so on...

 

Pray to your God that my son is healed. If he walks by his own power, muscles regenerated, spinal cord healed, and all the other problems gone, then I promise you, I will believe. So I'm waiting for your God to show himself. "

how would you have me answer him? He had mentioned that I should pray for his son and I gave him the benefit of the doubt i.e. that he wasn't doing the atheistic thing of always trying to set up the believer. So maybe you can tell me what you think I should have told him.

 

 

Seems to me you are describing some type of New Age philosophy. New Age, Wicca, Hinduism, occultism, stoicism, Buddhism, atheism, spiritualism etc.(all those dang isms are causing schisms between God and man, including those schisms within Christianity ) are basically the same thing, all think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers *shakes head* No dice Aman, the Word is as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

 

Actually, it's same lie, different times; Satan is still offering people forbidden fruit and they're lapping it up! All pseudo-religions just cater to people's ignorance and/or to their sinful proclivities. Ooooooo, I think I was preaching , that is allowed in the den so I did not break any rules. However, though I don't agree with all these differing belief systems, I do respect others' rights to choose them; God loves choice

 

 

Sorry for going off Aman but I had to let it out. Despite our differences, I'm glad we can still talk and I guess I preached but the "isms" can cause others to be deceived and consequently die eternally or not exist any more.

[Ouroboros]

Also, if your angry/upset emotions are still too engaged in this topic, if you are unable to look at it objectively then maybe you should let Aman moderate some of these posts.

And still, evolution is true and has been proven real over and over again with an enormous amount of evidence, while your God has not been shown to exist at all.

 

It's on you to provide the evidence for your God. But so far, I hear only blabber. A steady stream of words without any real backing, does not provide evidence and will not sway my mind.

 

You have to show me that your God exists, not just talk about feelings and how cute bunnies are.

 

Feeling good or bad about things will not change the facts. The fact is that the Earth is old, the Universe is old, and evolution is true. Words about God doesn't make God real. They will only be words until real evidence is given.

 

So what would be real evidence for your God? A miracle. Because that's the only thing that distinguish your God from Nature or any other god.

 

But I know what your answer to this will be, it will be just more words...

[Thumbelina]

Elie Wiesel went through hell in Auschwitz and Buchenwald but he did not give up on God; actually I heard that God was with those Jews (those who CHOSE for Him to be) in their crucible. Etched in one of the walls was "God was here".

People who went through Katrina said God was there.

 

 

Thumbelina, this post is about the most nauseating thing I have read on this site in years. The above statement is an insult to the victims of Katrina and the holocaust. I am sure you are completely unable to imagine why.

 

The Jewish God is not your Jesus, for one thing. You have no respect or compassion. Your post makes me wonder if you live a particularly sheltered life or just don't think much about suffering.

 

To just dismiss what happened in Katrina with "God was there," is an insult to those who died and those who were displaced and lost everything. Your God being there while he is gone from somewhere else? How does that even make sense?

 

 

 

 

If anyone sees this as a palaver then I'm sort of sorry but ...

 

Miss Deva (Miss Deva? that sounds like a celebrity name *smile*), I think you genuinely misunderstood what I meant when I wrote that. I am not dismissing human life but the bible says that our life is MORE than what is happening down here.

 

I was brief with my explanations because you guys are ex Christians and should be familiar with the Christian lingo.

 

Deva: Thumbelina, this post is about the most nauseating thing I have read on this site in years. The above statement is an insult to the victims of Katrina and the holocaust. I am sure you are completely unable to imagine why.

 

Deva: To just dismiss what happened in Katrina with "God was there," is an insult to those who died and those who were displaced and lost everything.

 

I am just relaying or trying to relay what the bible teaches OK?

God does not always deliver us from the fire but He goes THROUGH the fire with us. Daniel Chapter 3 Verse sixteen shows how the mindset of the Christian is supposed to be "... “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

 

The Christian is or even a SINCERE believer who does not know about Jesus, is NOT supposed to make a God out of his/her LIMITED understanding.

 

God ALLOWS calamities or sometimes does not supernaturally intervene to stop calamities in order to wake us up out of our complacency, so we won't love this world of SIN. God wants all of us to CHOOSE eternal life.

 

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

 

The great cloud of witnesses in the biblical narratives eventually recognized this, they had to have a radical dependence on God; David was bipolar at times, like that guy who held up the school board members recently -->

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101215/ap_on_re_us/us_school_board_shooting

 

but David had a heart for God even during His trial in

2 Samuel 12:14-23

Verse 23 sums up the HOPE of the Christian. The bible records David calling out to God continually, except when he fell with the Bathsheba thing and he took the census because of pride and he was greedy for too many women/wives but he had the RIGHT ATTITUDE and God can can work with that; David was teachable.

 

To inhabit eternity one HAS to trust God IMPLICITLY.

 

The book of Job shows what is going on behind the scenes and that

there is a battle going on for our allegiance

Take special note of Job 1:10,11 and Job 2:4 verse 9 is the whole crux of the matter; do we do what Job's wife suggested or the opposite? Job, just like Abraham, did the opposite; Job said "

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:" Job 13:15 The biblical Saints knew that God is The resurrection and The life.

 

God does not promise us a pain free existence, we have to endure on this evil planet See Acts 14:22

 

 

Tons of people go through trials but they realize that we are in a dangerous world and blessings and calamity fall both on the just (only through Jesus) and the unjust. The person who wrote the hymn "It is well with my soul." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Is_Well_with_My_Soul had a tragedy. A lot of the great hymn writers had tragedies. It is said that a nightingale sings the sweetest when it is the darkest. Our pain shows us that we are created, SINFUL beings and not God; it exposes our pride and faults/sins. It also can be because we need to have to learn to have empathy for others and it is a way to encourage others who may be weaker or as I said before, it can be a way for saving souls for eternity. See here: The story of David and Svea Flood. These are a few excerpts from it --->

“I’m going back to Sweden. I’ve lost my wife, and I obviously can’t take care of this baby. God has ruined my life.” With that, he headed for the port, rejecting not only his calling, but God himself.

 

Still bitter, he had one rule in his family: “Never mention the name of God- because God took everything from me.

 

 

“God forgot all of us. Our lives have been like this because of Him.”

 

 

 

If you so wish, you can read the entire testimony, I provided the link above.

 

.............

 

 

Deva: Your God being there while he is gone from somewhere else? How does that even make sense?

 

Huh? God is omnipresent but He waits for invites, He wants people to worship Him freely (See Revelation3:20.) . Alas, most of earth's inhabitants reject Him, they choose Satan and Satan hurts them in order to spite God To God's children, He p[romises this : 1 Corinthians 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it]." The Hebrew boys in Daniel chapter 3 understood this, Martin Luther and the other reformers understood this, all the people that were martyred during the dark/middle ages knew this, my grandma who had 13 children and 4 died and then lost her mate when he was in his thirties and she had no income, her youngest child being but 2 years old, knew this and she believed in God but did not really go to church but today, she is a Christian; my church members who got cancer and died knew this for they knew that their Redeemer lives and death is but a dirt nap.

 

Jesus wants us to build our house upon the Rock (which is Himself and not Peter (who was also a sinner turned saint through Jesus) and some church tradition); He wants us to depend on Him so we can sleep through the storms in our lives (I don't mean disconnect, just to not be overwhelmed) Jesus showed us this concept here : "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?" Mark 4:38. Peter too, finally understood that concept when He was sleeping like a baby while in the jail waiting to be executed. Paul and Silas were singing away in the prison; God gives a peace that passes understanding. When tragedy strikes it can devastate us but it is ONLY God that can shift that paradigm for HE IS The Creator! Regular folk use carnal coping mechanisms like food binges, sexual immorality, TV, video games, bible "debunkin' " and vain philosophies so they can disconnect and THINK they're in control when they are not but God gives the believer that is connected to Him, joy and peace unspeakable.

 

 

Deva: "The Jewish God is not your Jesus, for one thing. You have no respect or compassion. Your post makes me wonder if you live a particularly sheltered life or just don't think much about suffering."

 

The Christian God, The Islamic God and The Jewish God is ACTUALLY The God of Abraham which is the Creator God. It's just that all 3 religions tend to get His character all mixed up with the Muslims and Jews lagging behind. Heh heh, we got some former Jews and Muslims that spill the beans; the Jewish, Muslim concept of God is not of a tender, loving father and close personal friend; He's more of a sort of aloof powerful deity who one serves because He's got the power so they tend to pray in vain repetitions instead of talking to Him as a friend with a friend. Jesus loves everyone and I realize that there are SINCERE believers belonging to ALL the different communities of faith but " ... error can kill" Satan can deceive them and they may be sincere but sincerely wrong.

 

I have lived a mostly sheltered life but I have seen pain and am currently facing some scary moments right now. My problem is that I feel too much and I literally get sick so I can't afford to do that; I NEED GOD. I have family members whose lives are in danger; do you know what it's like to dread getting a phone call from a particular place? I was going out of my mind about two years ago, I prayed but then I was trying to use my human understanding to figure out how to solve the problem and then I realized I couldn't solve it at all; there was nothing I could do so I called up a church ministry from my community of faith and a Pastor prayed with me and since then I had peace; I need/ed my friends to pray/intercede for me. God did answer our prayers but one person, my uncle's stepson, was brutally murdered in 2009 and when I heard that I prayed that his mother will have that peace that passes understanding and she did, she did not become a wreck and so far she seems to be OK.

 

I currently have other family members that are in danger and one is currently being threatened because he wants to stay out of trouble. There's a particular one whom I have an extra burden for and that one escaped death a number of times, even wondered 'how come?!' Right in my home, about two weeks ago, someone whom I love put themself in danger and they're kind of stubborn, so what does one do? Pray, and it worked. I have had instances where I tried to solve on my own and it really was not working and then I heard that still small voice telling me to pray, to ASK and I did and I saw immediate results. Some prayers God still did not answer or seem to answer but I'm sold; He's proven Himself to me via His Word and my personal experiences.

 

I hope I cleared up some misunderstandings?

 

Thank you miss Deva for disagreeing without being disagreeable

[Ouroboros]

Blah, blah, blah...

 

Therefore God exists.

[Thumbelina]

Also, if your angry/upset emotions are still too engaged in this topic, if you are unable to look at it objectively then maybe you should let Aman moderate some of these posts.

And still, evolution is true and has been proven real over and over again with an enormous amount of evidence, while your God has not been shown to exist at all.

 

It's on you to provide the evidence for your God. But so far, I hear only blabber. A steady stream of words without any real backing, does not provide evidence and will not sway my mind.

 

You have to show me that your God exists, not just talk about feelings and how cute bunnies are.

 

Feeling good or bad about things will not change the facts. The fact is that the Earth is old, the Universe is old, and evolution is true. Words about God doesn't make God real. They will only be words until real evidence is given.

 

So what would be real evidence for your God? A miracle. Because that's the only thing that distinguish your God from Nature or any other god.

 

But I know what your answer to this will be, it will be just more words...

 

Sorry if you see this as just more words but ...

 

Knowledge of God is inherent; it's the sin nature that makes us go against what is inherent. Evolutionists have faulty dating methods and they hang on to tautology because God will interfere with their fun. Eh, I don't want to argue, this thread gives me an opportunity to say why I believe and I love talking about God and the bible.

[Thumbelina]

A bunch of nauseating pedantic and condescending putrescence which could only have been written by someone who has never experienced any real loss in her life

 

I used to try and rationalize stuff like you do. God has a plan, I just don't understand.

 

Then one day I realized that the world with God looks exactly like the world without God. So either God orchestrates a whole lot of human suffering and misery and sends billions of people to hell as part of some mysterious unknowable plan, and only helps Christians get parking spots close to the mall entrance and heals granny johnson's nagging cough for a couple weeks, or... there is no God and life is just human beings trying to make order out of chaos, hurting each other, loving each other, hating each other, helping each other, and this world is what we've got.

 

The latter is what I came to believe.

 

Is it time for you to shake the dust from your sandals and move on to the next town yet? I hope so.

 

 

Thank you lion for not using your biases to make it seem that I meant to be cruel. Here's a virtual daisy; oh wait, you're a lion and may snort at that so I'll get someone to give you a virtual piece of raw meat.

 

I can't give up on a Being that loves me more than I love myself; there is none like Him.

 

Again I say

[Thumbelina]

This song gives me comfort:

 

 

 

Hey Valk, this is regarding your vomit.

 

 

There's a story about a couple who had fraternal twins; these twins were completely different in character. One child was always grateful and the other kid was ALWAYS ungrateful. One parent told the neighbor "You know, it is astounding how different these two children are, one is ever optimistic and the other is ever pessimistic. For instance, one Christmas we bought a pony for both of them to ride, we put the pony in the barn and we put ribbons on it and we gave the pony to the pessimistic kid. When the pessimistic kid went into the barn and he saw the pony he said 'Oh a pony , great! said in a sarcastic voice); it's gonna really stink and attract lots of flies, I'm gonna have to clean up after it and so forth and so on.' " The parent said that they took the pony's manure and put it in the optimistic kids' room and when the kid walked in and saw the manure he started jumping up and down and he said "Oh boy! oh boy! with all this there's gotta be a pony somewhere!"

Moral of the story, quit lookin' at the poo Valk, quit lookin' at the poo! or vomit.

[bdp]

 

 

Knowledge of God is inherent

 

 

No it isn't, and there's no such thing as a 'sin nature.'

[Thumbelina]

 

 

Knowledge of God is inherent

 

 

No it isn't, and there's no such thing as a 'sin nature.'

 

 

Sorry bro' but "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

 

We have sinful tendencies, have you ever seen babies? Awww, what cute little SAVAGES!

 

God won't burn any though their carnal nature is inherent, they don't know what they are doing; they need to be trained.

[Ouroboros]

Sorry if you see this as just more words but ...

Because it's very simple. God must be more than words. Your God is only words because you never provide any other example of God than your words. You can make God visible or tangible as a real experience for me unless God is real. Since you can't provide any tangible evidence of your God's existence, your really have no real God.

 

Knowledge of God is inherent;

Then why are there so many versions of that knowledge? If knowledge of God is inherent, then our knowledge should be the same, and it's not. Remember, only a third of the world's population believe in your God, the other two thirds do not.

 

The only inherent knowledge we have about nature is nature itself. Science is a study of nature and what nature tells us. And nature told us that evolution is true. But of course you have fact-deniers and evolution-haters who spin the facts out of proportions to argue against reality. It's unfortunate, but that's what many of your kind do.

 

it's the sin nature that makes us go against what is inherent.

"Sin" is a man-made concept.

 

Evolutionists have faulty dating methods and they hang on to tautology because God will interfere with their fun.

No. Evolutionists have very accurate dating methods, but you have understand how each dating method works and when it doesn't. Faulty use of the dating methods will give faulty answers. And faulty thinking about how evolution works will not prove evolution wrong.

 

Eh, I don't want to argue, this thread gives me an opportunity to say why I believe and I love talking about God and the bible.

Sure.

[Antlerman]

After months of her giving God the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her bible and then she told God "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the bible down; so there she was, not praying or reading the bible and yet actively involved in church. God did not give up on her just like He does not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer walk with God, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in Jesus.

 

...

 

I do pray for you lions (even the frisky ones) and Ouroboros, you mentioned a specific situation and I will pray specifically for it but God sometimes chooses not to heal us in this life (He helps us through the crucibles) His goal is to secure eternal life for us where there is no more death, sickness or pain. You may find this hard to believe but God loves your son as much as, if not more, than you do.

Have you ever stopped to look beyond the words you use and consider them in a different light? Now I'm not meaning the following to be insulting but to try to provoke some depth of consideration for you. Don't consider me as some 'skeptic', or antagonist in my analogy, I do mean this with respect.

 

If I substitute the words "house elf" for God and "book of magic" for Bible in your paragraph above, and you will see how it reads like you imagine God like some magic-performing elf who spends his existence trying to do things for people. It is exactly the same words, with its main character being a house elf instead of the eternal God. See how perfectly it becomes a child's imagination story about a world of Magic....

 

 

The Story of Angie and Her House Elf

 

"After months of her giving her house elf the cold shoulder, she said one morning she automatically picked up her book of magic and then she told her house elf "I'm not talking to you!" and she put the book of magic down; so there she was, not talking to him or reading the book of magic and yet actively involved in with her spell casting group. Her house elf did not give up on her just like they don't not give up on any one of us, He pursued her and created circumstances that she just knew what He was doing. She hardened her heart for a while but then she eventually softened it again and now she has an even closer relationship with her house elf, she had her crucible and she came out victorious in her relationship with him."

 

Now my point is to show how you imagine God like a child imagines creatures of special magic in the world, doing things behind the scenes all centered on the individual they belong to. You interpret events and motivations of others and yourself as all being orchestrated by this powerful creature of magic. It is very clear in your words this is how you imagine God. A God who places you as the center of his special activities. You are the center.

 

.....

 

 

With all due respect but *raised eyebrow* to you Aman.

 

Ah, the usual atheistic pastime of taking texts out of contexts and forming pretexts so they can "disprove" the bible but you overlooked verse 12 of 1 Corinthians 13

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I ADMIT that I and every other believer need to do what is contained in Corinthians 13 but to admit needs and wrongs is the majority of the solution for God to work with us.

 

1. I am not an atheist.

 

2. I took your words, not the Bible's and I simply substituted the main character and objects. They are your words, just simply saying House Elf instead of God.

 

But that you should respond in an attack, falsely trying to label me an atheist, and secondly not facing the fact that these were your words and there was no twisting at all going on, shows to me you can't see beyond your Magic ideas about God and just blotted them out from what was presented directly to you.

 

As far as 1 Cor 13 goes, I quote that verse all the time in reference to those who imagine God is some sort of magic-doing house elf as you just described in your paragraph above. If in fact you admit to see through a glass darkly now (i.e. a child's imagination), then how is it you can call me such silliness as "New Age" and whatnot which you will do here shortly? You simply don't understand, seeing through a glass darkly as a child....

 

Seems to me you are describing some type of New Age philosophy.

Nope. New Age is basically experimental Christianity, dabbling in new objects of faith, but essentially no real transforming understanding of the whole. It's not a bad thing to try to step beyond, but the focus on "self", the "me and my salvation", focus of it is just as it is for the narcissistic Christian. "God blessed me today! He's opening doors for me, I'm so glad he loves me.", sort of focus on me, like your story of the house elf....

 

New Age, Wicca, Hinduism, occultism, stoicism, Buddhism, atheism, spiritualism etc.(all those dang isms are causing schisms between God and man, including those schisms within Christianity ) are basically the same thing, all think that they can be reincarnated or evolve into a god or that they have untapped powers *shakes head* No dice Aman, the Word is as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

You're way out of your league, lumping all these things (which would of necessity include Christianity as well), into a big pile and saying it's one thing. You have no idea what you are talking about and are just spewing forth ignorance rather than trying to listen and understand from a sincere heart.

 

I in fact accept the Perennial Philosophy which recognizes an underlying commonality in all religious pursuits, which includes Christianity, but it is not so trite and self-centered as you say it is. It's not about "their" untapped powers in some narcissistic universe centered around them (which you express in your religious thought), but rather to transform beyond themselves into a self-less connection with the Divine. Absolute Unity with God, or Brahman, or Atman.

 

However... that you state it the way you do as being a self-centered, ego-stroking sort of enterprise, I hear you taking your narcissistic religious focus and making these others evil competitors to yours in your pursuit of "being right", validating your particular project you use as a substitute for real spiritual existence - beyond your narcissistic self.

 

As I said, you are out of your element, but you do expose what you are. A child, imaging God as some gift-giving Magic that has you as the focus of his purpose in Being. The only thing I'm interested in is Being itself. Not becoming "a god", but becoming God - not in some sort of "Big Me!" possessing all power sort of narcissistic ME!, but to be the fullness, that fulfillment of Being Itself in me and through me as That, not me.

 

This is not your religious mindset, as you have no understanding of what that is, even though I could point you to that within your own texts you call a Light to you feet (you have but a pen light one millimeter in front of your toes with your eyes focused on the ground in front of you, and only you). It is there in all religions. Transformation into union with Godhead.

 

If you want to have a serious discussion with me about this I'm willing, but I need to hear a little humility in you, showing your interest in being more than remaining an infant. God is not a house elf, and the Universe is not about you.

[buffettphan]

Hey!!!!!! you lions that deliberately misunderstood my posts and thereby encouraged Ouroboros to emotionally misunderstand it, that was not nice! It's a sin to encourage others to do wrong too you know. When Ouroboros is not so emotionally engaged I'll have to exhort him to not follow a multitude to do evil; I'm shaking my finger in righteous indignation at you (I'm shy in person but on the net I can do it) However, I am a Christian and Christianity offersGRACE so I forgive you all.

Sorry Ouroboros but I had to tell them off; a Christian can't be a dumb dog (cf Isa 58:10) for we are all priests.( 1 Peter 2:9)

 

Ouroboros I truly am sorry about your predicament and I hope God answers, well, your former prayers. I will intercede for you

 

Knowledge of God is inherent; it's the sin nature that makes us go against what is inherent. Evolutionists have faulty dating methods and they hang on to tautology because God will interfere with their fun. Eh, I don't want to argue, this thread gives me an opportunity to say why I believe and I love talking about God and the bible.

 

Thumbelina, how old are you? I can just picture you shaking your finger and stomping your foot. You come across as mature as your name. No wonder you're so brainwashed -- there's nobody easier to manipulate and control than an immature child. Make it all about you and zap! you're hooked. The guy who wrote the bible instruction about becoming like little children knew what he was talking about.

 

But then there's the other conflicting buybull verse: "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I no longer used childish ways.

 

 

Poor widdle deluded confused offensive christian, you need to grow up.

[Darklady]

Thumblina

I have just sat here and read through all your shit - all you do is repeat in various way, that you are right and the rest of us are blind at best or rebellious at worst. You are the worst kind of xian, self righteous, nasty, emotionally immature, everything you say shows how childish you are and every word that spews forth from you is a example of the vileness of your god. Repeating the same disgusting crap over and over is pathetic, quoting from the bible when we don't believe it? Do you have a mind of your own or are you so completely brain washed you can no longer think?

 

I can't believe the stupid things that you write.

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

I can't give up on a Being that loves me more than I love myself; there is none like Him.

 

 

You talking about Santa Claus again, He really loves you and will fill your stocking in a coupla days. He loves you twice as much as you love yourself

 

Of course, if you die not believing in Santa then you'll spend all eternity naked at the North Pole, writhing and groaning and shrieking with the cold, making toys for all the children that DO believe in Santa.

[bdp]

 

 

 

 

 

We have sinful tendencies, have you ever seen babies? Awww, what cute little SAVAGES!

 

God won't burn any though their carnal nature is inherent, they don't know what they are doing; they need to be trained.

 

...so, babies SHOULD be burned but 'god' won't do it. Sorry, I have yet to see a savage baby.

[Deva]

If anyone sees this as a palaver then I'm sort of sorry but ...

 

Miss Deva (Miss Deva? that sounds like a celebrity name *smile*), I think you genuinely misunderstood what I meant when I wrote that. I am not dismissing human life but the bible says that our life is MORE than what is happening down here.

 

No - the word for the female celebrity who can't get enough of herself is "diva" I am Deva - a Sanskrit word which means a type of goddess in the Hindu and Buddhist religions. I doubt that I am misunderstanding you.

 

 

I was brief with my explanations because you guys are ex Christians and should be familiar with the Christian lingo.

 

Raised in it - was a Christian until approximately age 40. Is that familiar enough for you? How old are you, anyway?

 

I am just relaying or trying to relay what the bible teaches OK?

 

Why on earth would you assume we haven't heard your unsophisticated interpretation of said book a million times?

 

God does not always deliver us from the fire but He goes THROUGH the fire with us...[omit irrelevant Bible verse]

 

The Christian is or even a SINCERE believer who does not know about Jesus, is NOT supposed to make a God out of his/her LIMITED understanding.

 

Talk about "limited understanding" you have no idea what I said.

 

God ALLOWS calamities or sometimes does not supernaturally intervene to stop calamities in order to wake us up out of our complacency, so we won't love this world of SIN. God wants all of us to CHOOSE eternal life.

 

No such thing as sin and no way would any God worthy of the definition merely "allow" something to happen. Screw a weak God that isn't in control. "Wake us up"! Ha, the same stupid elevation of suffering that Christians always do.

 

The rest of this post is just irrelevent garbage Bible quotes. Is that supposed to impress me?

 

This is NOT an evil planet.

 

Our pain shows us that we are created, SINFUL beings and not God; it exposes our pride and faults/sins. It also can be because we need to have to learn to have empathy for others and it is a way to encourage others who may be weaker or as I said before, it can be a way for saving souls for eternity.

 

Our pain in no way demonstrates that we are created, nor that we are sinful. Empathy is a great thing but you won't learn it in Christianity because you are the saved and there are the "lost" who you think are less than human. Screw that. "Others that may be weaker" - you have no idea what courage is.

 

 

Huh? God is omnipresent but He waits for invites, He wants people to worship Him freely

 

What do you mean"huh"? Do you have an English comprehension problem? Your God is apparently not with some folks while he is with others. The word "omnipresent" means present EVERYWHERE. Not with certain people who do a certain thing. What is wrong with you that you can't see this?

 

Alas, most of earth's inhabitants reject Him, they choose Satan and Satan hurts them in order to spite God

 

Baloney. either your God is omnipresent or he is not. I also don't think for one second God is a "him". Also there is no such thing as "Satan" which you set up to be greater than the God you supposedly worship.

[Darklady]

 

 

 

 

 

We have sinful tendencies, have you ever seen babies? Awww, what cute little SAVAGES!

 

God won't burn any though their carnal nature is inherent, they don't know what they are doing; they need to be trained.

 

...so, babies SHOULD be burned but 'god' won't do it. Sorry, I have yet to see a savage baby.

 

Lets just hope she NEVER has babies!!!

[bdp]

they choose Satan

 

very few people choose 'satan' - satan is part of the Xtian mythology and goes out the window with the rest of it. even most 'satanists' are really just atheistic hedonists for whom 'satan' is merely a symbol - they don't believe in a literal satan any more than they believe in a literal god.

[agnosticator]

I can't believe the stupid things that you write.

 

That's because you can't believe the words written in the Bible, and therefore neither can you believe the stupid things she is inspired to say because she believes the words written therein.

[the stranger]

I don't mean to break in the conversation but it has been way too long since I have replied. For times sake, I will only respond to some of the things that stick out to me.

 

He was not the only one injured in the accident. My wife, my two other sons, my oldest daughter, but also many other things the ensued related to the event that complicated our lives hundredfold.

 

Each time, we had the need of God's superpowers in one way or the other, and prayer never worked. Every time the answer from God was: no. (Or rather... silence.) The whole family lost faith in God. My wife, my kids, and I all lost our faith.

 

Ouroboros, I wish I could say that I have all the answers. What you went through and are still going through surpasses anything I can really comprehend. I wish I could help.

 

And my other kids and pain to see them injured as well.

 

The worst part was that I was not in the accident. I had to stand on the sidelines, without any pain or injury, and see them suffer and fight for their lives.

 

My heart is saddened. I could not even imagine what you and your family has had to endure.

 

I need my sleep for the finals

 

I take it you are in school? If so, what for?

 

I just haven't seen God do anything or answer anything. The sum of God's activity in my life comes up to the whooping high number of ZERO. He could at least do something. Why is all answers always "no"? According to the Bible, signs and wonders are supposed to follow those who believe, and I believed that for 30 years of my life, and for 10 years of those 30, I needed to see something at least once. There never were any double foot prints in the sand, but only one set of prints, and it was from my own two feet.

 

I have only been saved for around thirteen years. You -- you were saved for thirty years. What kept you believing in the God for almost as long as I have been alive? Did you see things different before the accident?

 

Oh, really? Now? The miracle will happen now? Cool.

 

The night after I typed that post, I was struggling with God over this. I felt strongly God telling me that your son was, or was in the process, of being healed. This happened around 3 AM the following morning. The next day I read your post, and what did I see, nothing. I was very disappointed. I was looking for a praise report. I struggled more with God than then ever before.

 

Then God revealed to me all of the things, signs and miracles that He had done for me in the past. Changing my life, saving my physical life, providing when nothing was around, showing me answers to prayer that was prayed over and over. Then God said, "I did all of this, yet you still do not believe!?" All I could do is fall to my knees and apologize, and say :God, you are right, and I am wrong, and I am sorry. Lord, I will never doubt again."

 

Now this was probably not true, but I do mean it to be true. I cannot explain this and I am truly sorry that I cannot. I am hoping and praying that God will give me or you some revelation on this for sure. I believe it will be given to you. When this happens my friend, PLEASE, let me know.

 

Ok. So I will pray now.

 

Here was my prayer, and I prayed in Swedish because I'm most comfortable with that:

 

"Gud, om du existerar, hela min son nu."

 

And I will go up, right now to my son's bedroom, and check if his legs and scoliosis are healed, and if his micki tube and colostomy bags are gone. I'll make a new post for you with the results. Back in a few seconds...

Please continue to do all of the above, my friend. I will be looking forward to further postings.

 

What does God want? He's just giving me signs that he likes to ruin my life!)

 

Whe God showes you that your son is healed, He will be showing you that He wants to save your life. No need to respond to God. He does not need you to do this miracle. He has already done it. However, He wants you to be part of learning from it, and being paer of more to come.

 

Am I understanding everything that I am typing to you now? Not a chance. But when your revelation comes, you will be able to explain it to me, and that, I will be looking forward to.

 

===================================================================================

 

Cits, though we are presently talking on the other thread, you have made some great replies to me regarding this thread. I hope to get to these at a little later date. You put out quite a boat load of info bro.

 

=====================================================================================

 

Thumbs, you have made for some interesting conversations. I have yet to look at your link. Thanks for being here.

 

It certainly is true, people look at the same things and yet come to different conclusions on what is seen. The good news, however, there still seems to be allot of hope around these parts about believing in Santa Clause! LOL

 

 

 

I wish you all the best for the holidays -- errr -- Christmas.

 

I luv ya Ouroboros (no, not like that), and I will be looking forward to the future with the revelations that I believe will happen. If God is not real, I am a liar, and if I am lying, revelations will never happen. It is true many Christians would discourage such believe and statements, but I believe what the Lord told me will come about.