Why Do You Remain A Christian?

[Guest ephymeris]

 

Jesus weeps.

 

This is the fruit of your "study"?

 

 

It appears as though even Jesus facepalms at such efforts.

[Ouroboros]

Holy Facepalm!

[★ Citsonga ★]

Stranger, here's just one video that I'd like you to watch and really think about:

 

[Guest end3]

Can you tell me where Jesus teaches pantheism?

 

 

Helllloooooo McFly.......the Vine and the branches thingy.....

[Crazy Donna]

First, not all scientist believe this way, as this is a list of some of the popular ones who do not.

 

Some modern scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation

*List of scientists who somehow manage to believe in creationism and real science at the same time that you cut and paste from a creationist website snipped for brevity*

 

My link

 

 

Click on the link to see many more famous scientist that believed in creation through out the ages. It is believed that 80% are old age and 20% new.

 

In looking at more research, it is quite clear that the testing used is questionable at best.

 

Antlerman, you are right, I do not know science. I failed two times in a row. But friend, I do know how to read. What I am finding is that from the early stages of the belief of the "old earth" there has been guesses as to 75,000 to the now 4.5 billion years old mark. Beyond this, no one agrees with each other. Not just it changes in time through more research, but that there are billions of years of differences among the guesses.

 

It has been proven that the testing used is not reliable even for rocks of know age, let alone the rest.

 

My link

 

What is never taken into consideration it seems as how fast rock formations can happen. According to the way rock ages are tested, if correct, the flood could of never happened.

 

 

 

WOW, there is so so much great information out here. It is not simple to understand or to be able to take it all in at one time.

 

I am going to read and respond to the earlier postings, and hopefully in that I will get some idea as to what precise direction to take my research. It is to vast of an area of research just to spit it all out. Breaking it down is a must. I have much to learn in this area, so it should be very fun. I am glad the internet is out here or I would have little to debate with ya all in this regard.

 

God bless and I will hopefully be back a little later tonight to make full responses and a hope to get an idea of exactly where to take this study.

So you found a list of scientists who believe in creationism, and you think that will convince us that creationism is scientifically feasible? So by the same logic, christianity must be a load of rubbish, and your god an invention, because I can guarantee you there are more people on earth who do not believe in your god, than christians.

 

Do you see how ridiculous that is? Just because you can find a group of people who think the same thing doesn't mean you are right. At one time, the majority of people on earth believed that it was flat. Did the world magically go from being flat to being a sphere when the majority of people came to the conclusion that it was in fact round? Of course not.

 

Maybe you should learn some stuff about evolution, and about what atheists actually believe about science, and read a few testimonies, before you start telling us what we were thinking and experiencing (as in the case of your response to Joss, which I thought was disgusting) when we were christians.

 

You just want to feel important by promoting your disgusting religion here. You pretend to be here for dialogue, but you're really here for your own ego. We don't want your filth, we've heard it all before, millions of times. Maybe if you did some reading on this site before you waltzed in making a fool of yourself, you'd understand that just because your magical book of fairy tales and the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you think about your imaginary friend make you feel good, they DO NOT automatically make you right and everyone else wrong.

 

Your erzatz civility does nothing to hide the fact that you consider us to be wrong based on a feeling you have, and not on evidence. You don't have the intellectual skills to evaluate new evidence and adjust your worldview, otherwise you wouldn't be worshipping a revolting god who supposedly created all humankind with the expectation that some of them would be 'rejects', which he would happily burn in hell.

 

I am not very welcoming to people who come onto a site for the support and assistance of people who are leaving christianity, with the intention of propagating the revolting message that we have evaluated and found to be lacking. This is a site for ex christians to support each other, not for you to spread your laughable creationist rubbish and your implied insults on our characters. You think that ex christians just gave up when they had a crisis of faith, or that we expected our lives to be easy? You self important, patronising cunt. Go read the Testimonies forum and get your facts straight before you come here and insult us.

[the stranger]

First question

 

Do you believe it is possible, based on the sites that I have provided, as well as many I did not copy down, that many of the test used to support the earth and its age are questionable at best, and cannot really be relied on based on the clear evidence?

 

Second question

 

Many here state they could not believe anymore based on evidence against the belief of the bible. First, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt the information that you had received for evidence for evolution was true and not twisted. After all, if Christians twist everything around, could not those do the same that have their own agenda?

 

Some of the sites given, and many more not given, have very detailed reports and scientific research that seems to support the bible, and not evolution. Would you still believe if the information that you received some time ago had supported creation? In other words, where did your info come from? Did they too have their own agenda? After all, evolution is a fairly new belief.

 

You know, I started doubting Santa Clause when I noticed my mother bought all the gifts (that I tried to find before Christmas) and there were never any extras (only some coal in my stocking). When I never saw Santa coming down the chimney (though we did not have one) I quickly realized that Santa was probably not quite the way people made him out to be. Though He was based, of course, on a real person, who made history in the giving that he did. Santa was real, but not in the way we defined him. His spirit of giving, which came from God, still draws to all at the birth of Jesus. (The biggest giver of them all)

 

I think often we tend try to put God in a way that we can wrap Him up in our minds, but if we could do that, God would not be God. Do you believe that you will wake up in the morning? Get to work? Have air to breath? Live to see another day? I think that whether we admit it or not, we base much on our lives on that of which we do not know or cannot see. No proof, just assumption based on history. Yet God has shown Himself in all the history in which we look, yet we say, "show yourself, face to face." How is it we can live our lives on assuming but not believe in God with everything we see.

 

Are any of you aware of any other planet that supports such life as ours? Can any one of you tell me what the chances would be for such a creation such as ours to just happen? Can anyone show me an example of evolution that is an upgrade, and not a down grade or equal?

 

I just hope that all of the information that you put in your minds to help you disbelieve in God holds up for you when our Creator comes to earth again. I have given clear evidence, and have much more of it that I have not given, to believe in God. For those who say there is no evidence, it is only because you accept what you believe to be true, just as I do.

 

Jesus weeps.

 

Your certainly right, just as a kid would weep for a bird feeder he made be credited to the wind of chance.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I am saddened one can look around at this world and creation and believe it all came by a big bang of chance. I have shown that many test that are used to show this earths age are just not factual evidence. Each animal has their own identity. I have a dog and I love the snot out of him, but he barks, and I, I talk. I see no past of me ever being like him. Can anyone show me a half ape, half man. (Though I have seen some hairy men) Please keep in mind, one man that may have a face that looks similar but for evolution to be true, it would have to be intermixing with all creation, at all points in the change. No matter how long a process, the process would still have to be going on.

 

In my next area of debate, in the topic just below this one, I will go further into the bible being the absalute. Call me crazy, but the bible has stood the test of time like none other. I feel sorry for those who at this time no longer believe. I just cannot help but believe. When it comes to chance, I know better than to take my chances.

 

Let me say this, it is very easy to begin to have doubts. If I had no one to show me better, I could easily be convinced that the world was flat. (well, kind of) Once we no longer believe in the word of God, who is left. Man. What does man know over God? The bible has been proving itself over and over throughout history.

 

If science was absalute, and proven to be so, then you would all have something to stand on. But as we all know, MANY scientist dispute the testing and their results of science, as science has changed so many times in such a short while. I am not against science, but stand for proven science. The word of God has yet to fail or to change.

 

PS I will be honest, I believe because God has given that ability. It is a gift given to all, but only those who will seek this truth will find it. I know, I am sounding harsh, and I really mean no disrespect, but for the life of me, I do not know how I can be criticised so such to this degree, because I believe in looking around and believing that there is no way this creation was done by chance. If you want to believe in evolution, I can't stop you, nor am I trying to, but at least understand that there are plentiful facts in the science world for my belief.

 

I am truly sorry for offending anybody, as this rarely brings out the best in anything, and I do not take your stories of the past lightly, but at least consider other scientific possibilities that the average do not show.

 

If you think taking sides is something that does not happen with large organizations, all one has to do is to count the insults made on regular TV about the current president compared to the last one. Rarely is both sides truly seen or shown, and often, not even allowed to be compared.

 

Some here say creation has no respect because they have no facts, but these sites, and many more that I have not shown, show clear evidence in creation and a young earth, as well is real reasons to question current believes in the science world.

 

. In other words, they start with the conclusion and then manipulate the details to try to make them seem to support the preconceived conclusion. Science, on the other hand, is about starting with the evidence and then drawing conclusions from that evidence.

 

My friend, I do not believe that for a second. I believe that in our hearts, whether you or the ones doing the test, we already have conclusions that we expect, and want to see based on what we already believe. I do not believe common scientific belief is ever held with a real thought of there being a real God. This always makes a huge difference in the end results, if we have to do math problems to come up with those results, whether for or against what we want or believe.

 

I am not criticising you for doubting, but I am asking you to truly reconsider other "truths".

 

Once I found out that the bible is FAR from perfect and CANNOT be the word of god, I realized how misplaced my trust in it was. No longer having to force everything to fit the bible, I was able to recognize that there was no reason to demonize those who were simply going where the evidence leads.

 

I will be dealing with this issue a little later. It should become quite interesting.

 

The problem is that we do not circle around the sun in a perfect circle. Our planet is moving around the sun in a huge ellipse. Do you know what an ellipse is? Our distance to the sun changes about 5-10% over a year.

 

So what fractional variance would make it impossible? 5/100 and 10/100 are fractions.

 

And the axis on which the planet is rotation has changed multiple times in history.

 

I don't disagree. I think that the site allows for that. It is just saying that in general, all things stay alinged at a distance that keeps us humans staying alive.

 

Do you have an explanation to God's existence? No? "Always existed" It's a cop-out.

 

Explain God's existence and where he came from. Otherwise your argument is dumb.

 

God does not have a beginning or end. This is the problem. We cannot wrap our minds around this concept. There was no beginning for God, but there was for us. How can we put God in a box? Paul tells us clearly that we see things in part right now, but after this life we will see things in full.

 

What do you believe about life. Your here just by chance, then you die, and nothing again is ever noticed by you. I believe there is still something deep inside you pleading with you, and I am praying much for you in this regard. I think we all have knowledge that there is something more than what we know.

 

The gravity is not consistent over the planets surface. There is a physical correlation between mass and gravity, and because our planet is not a perfect sphere (it's compressed at the poles and wider at the equator), the gravity is different at different latitudes.

 

And the rotation is not exactly 24 hours, and it has changed in history.

 

But would you agree with this as a general term?

 

We don't know all the laws of nature yet. And some scientists postulate that the laws of nature are so complex that we will never understand them. It seems like they all fall into a form of ordered chaos

 

Chaos? Whatever the whole truth is of the matter, they have been stable eneugh to keep us around for atleast 6,000 years. I do not think it would take much changing of these sorts of things to cause our planet to end as we know it.

 

 

As far as believing in Jesus and being a Christian, I think that only one thing matters above all others, and that is the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If one has that, all other things come in second. We may disagree on everything else, but that one thing, that is the only thing that matters when you are face to face with the Creator. My prayer is that no matter how one believes, that they except Jesus Christ as their personal King and Savior.

 

PS Thanks Ourborus for the Christian websites on the old earth, I will check them out, along with others that were posted.

 

The reason why creationism doesn't have equal opportunity for debate is because 99% of scientists reject it. The same reason why astronomers find it a waste of time debating with UFO conspirators.

 

 

I will ask you for some proof on this one my friend.

 

 

I will check all websites given, and some of what was stated I just might find out to be true, who knows.

 

God bless

[Crazy Donna]

As far as believing in Jesus and being a Christian, I think that only one thing matters above all others, and that is the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If one has that, all other things come in second. We may disagree on everything else, but that one thing, that is the only thing that matters when you are face to face with the Creator. My prayer is that no matter how one believes, that they except Jesus Christ as their personal King and Savior.

 

So why don't you put your money where your mouth is and offer us some real, substantial, physical proof that god and jesus exist. None of this wishy washy, feelings bullshit. Real scientific proof. You'd get heaps of converts.

 

Or isn't it that important to you?

[Suzy]

With respect to TexasFreethinker's post in the Lion's Den, I'm starting a part 2 version of his question which spawned probably the most read thread on this site with over 41,150 views, and 1,576 responses on 79 pages. It was finally closed due to sheer size, but it seems a question that obviously continued to spark many discussions from many responders. Therefore I'm reposting his original question here in the Colosseum to re-open the question for continued responses and discussions.

 

TexasFreethinker's original question:

 

In the spirit of understanding (rather than debating), I'd like to ask another question of the Christians who are members or guests of this site.

 

Why are you still a Christian, in spite of the evidence and logic to the contrary that's been presented here?

 

What I'm trying to understand is what maintains your belief - on what basis do you continue to believe?

 

If you take a close look at why you are a believer does it come down to reason, evidence, a gut feeling, do you think you are hearing directly from your god, etc? I think most Christians would have to admit that there are strong reasons to disbelieve, but there must be something that is keeping you on the side of belief. What is that, exactly?

 

I'm hoping for answers more explicit than "I have faith". I'm interested in why you have faith.

Hmm, this is a good question. I guess my biggest reason for believing would have to be creation. I haven't read all the posts on the subject, but from my POV, there is no stronger evidence than this. I have never been shown evidence to the contrary as far as creation, and I definitely don't believe we started as tiny cells, or that we came from apes. Everything in the universe, from the distance of the sun being just right, to the distance of the moon being just right, to trees giving off oxygen and taking in carbon dioxide, and us taking in oxygen and us giving off carbon dioxide, it all just fits to neatly for it to have been an accident.

 

I used to think this too, until I didn't read books on cosmology and didn't realize that in an infinite or very, very large universe it's only natural, in fact expextable that among those billions of galaxies (each with billions of stars and many of those stars with planets around them!) there will inevitably be regions and planets where the circumstances are right to support life. Obviosuly we live on such a planet since we can ask these questions. It's just a matter of probability.

 

The reason that kept me cling on Christainity for so long was a totally different, but I think it's very usual: fear. Fear of going to Hell or draw the wrath of God upon me if I choose another path. I just wonder how many Christains are motivated by this and how many Christians there would be if the threat of Hell/punishment wouldn't hang over their heads.

[Ouroboros]

First question

 

Do you believe it is possible, based on the sites that I have provided, as well as many I did not copy down, that many of the test used to support the earth and its age are questionable at best, and cannot really be relied on based on the clear evidence?

 

I used to be on your side of the fence, but I started to read books there were not Christian and started to take classes where they taught things. A picture began to emerge. And that picture is that people who wants to believe can see faults in everything that contradicts what they believe in.

 

Are you willing to at least consider that your religion is questionable at best and is not based on clear evidence? I don't think you can.

 

I have looked at the math, experiments, reasons, etc for what geology, evolution, astronomy, math, physics, etc have provided to argue for the old age universe and evolution, and, I'm sorry to tell you, but science got it right.

 

In 1987, scientists saw a supernova in space. What was interesting by that observation was that the light from the explosion was reflected 10 days later in a nebula. Calculations made on the distance between the supernova and the nebula, based on the speed of light, and the angle to the event, made it possible to pinpoint a fairly exact time when the supernova happened (using basic trigonometric math). The time estimated for when it happened was 150,000 years ago. The real interesting part is that it is undeniable. The event was older than 10,000 years. To deny this is to deny basic trigonometry and speed of light.

 

 

Second question

 

Many here state they could not believe anymore based on evidence against the belief of the bible. First, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt the information that you had received for evidence for evolution was true and not twisted. After all, if Christians twist everything around, could not those do the same that have their own agenda?

 

I have looked at the arguments on both sides. I was Christian for 30 years and a non-Christian for only a few years. Do you seriously believe that during those 30 years I couldn't have found better evidence for my faith than I could find in a few years as non-Christian? It has taken Christianity 2,000 years to prove nothing, and science only a few hundred years to prove a trillions of facts about reality.

 

You're deluded and need to shake of that fantasy you have.

 

Some of the sites given, and many more not given, have very detailed reports and scientific research that seems to support the bible, and not evolution. Would you still believe if the information that you received some time ago had supported creation? In other words, where did your info come from? Did they too have their own agenda? After all, evolution is a fairly new belief.

 

I got my information from books, scientists, and professors educated in the field.

 

And your representation of evolution shows that you have no clue... no clue at all.

 

You know, I started doubting Santa Clause when I noticed my mother bought all the gifts (that I tried to find before Christmas) and there were never any extras (only some coal in my stocking). When I never saw Santa coming down the chimney (though we did not have one) I quickly realized that Santa was probably not quite the way people made him out to be. Though He was based, of course, on a real person, who made history in the giving that he did. Santa was real, but not in the way we defined him. His spirit of giving, which came from God, still draws to all at the birth of Jesus. (The biggest giver of them all)

Jesus is like Santa Claus.

 

I think often we tend try to put God in a way that we can wrap Him up in our minds, but if we could do that, God would not be God. Do you believe that you will wake up in the morning? Get to work? Have air to breath? Live to see another day? I think that whether we admit it or not, we base much on our lives on that of which we do not know or cannot see. No proof, just assumption based on history. Yet God has shown Himself in all the history in which we look, yet we say, "show yourself, face to face." How is it we can live our lives on assuming but not believe in God with everything we see.

I have asked God to show himself. But he doesn't. He doesn't even bother to answer.

 

If God is real, the God can prove his existence to me without you. The only thing that is needed is God to convince me. The only thing that can convert me is that God himself proves his own existence to me. Your words and blabber won't change one iota. Doesn't the Bible warn you about people who just talk and talk and talk? Is faith talk? Do you believe that I would have a proper belief in Jesus only based on your talk? I want clear and present evidence that Jesus and God exists. Until then, science and reality rules. God doesn't exist unless God can prove himself to exist. Simple.

 

Are any of you aware of any other planet that supports such life as ours? Can any one of you tell me what the chances would be for such a creation such as ours to just happen? Can anyone show me an example of evolution that is an upgrade, and not a down grade or equal?

Again. You have no clue at all. It's a waste of my time to teach you. Pick up some books about this and read instead.

 

I strongly recommend Dawkin's recent book about evolution, "The Greatest Show on Earth."

 

Get it. Read it. Then we can discuss.

[Ouroboros]

The problem is that we do not circle around the sun in a perfect circle. Our planet is moving around the sun in a huge ellipse. Do you know what an ellipse is? Our distance to the sun changes about 5-10% over a year.

 

So what fractional variance would make it impossible? 5/100 and 10/100 are fractions.

 

And the axis on which the planet is rotation has changed multiple times in history.

 

I don't disagree. I think that the site allows for that. It is just saying that in general, all things stay alinged at a distance that keeps us humans staying alive.

You said it couldn't move a fraction. It is moving fractions out of it's alignment. So the argument is moot.

 

Do you have an explanation to God's existence? No? "Always existed" It's a cop-out.

 

Explain God's existence and where he came from. Otherwise your argument is dumb.

 

God does not have a beginning or end. This is the problem. We cannot wrap our minds around this concept. There was no beginning for God, but there was for us. How can we put God in a box? Paul tells us clearly that we see things in part right now, but after this life we will see things in full.

In other words, a cop-out.

 

If God can be from eternity, then energy can be from eternity.

 

If energy can't be from eternity, then God has no energy either.

 

Energy must be eternal if God is eternal.

 

But if energy is eternal, then God is not necessary to explain the existence of energy... or the universe.

 

What do you believe about life. Your here just by chance, then you die, and nothing again is ever noticed by you. I believe there is still something deep inside you pleading with you, and I am praying much for you in this regard. I think we all have knowledge that there is something more than what we know.

Pfft. Nah. I'm good. Keep your cult and your religious induced drug-state of mind. I know I like it better the way it is now.

 

The gravity is not consistent over the planets surface. There is a physical correlation between mass and gravity, and because our planet is not a perfect sphere (it's compressed at the poles and wider at the equator), the gravity is different at different latitudes.

 

And the rotation is not exactly 24 hours, and it has changed in history.

 

But would you agree with this as a general term?

How so?

 

Life is chaos. The world is chaos. The universe is chaos. There are physical laws and principles yes. There are certain "goldilocks" in the system, and without them we wouldn't be able to live. But the thing here is, there is a fairly good chance that other kinds of lifeforms can live in other conditions where we can't. There is a good chance that life is something innate in the nature of our universe. Meaning, Nature/Universe IS God.

[Ouroboros]

We don't know all the laws of nature yet. And some scientists postulate that the laws of nature are so complex that we will never understand them. It seems like they all fall into a form of ordered chaos

 

Chaos? Whatever the whole truth is of the matter, they have been stable eneugh to keep us around for atleast 6,000 years. I do not think it would take much changing of these sorts of things to cause our planet to end as we know it.

You don't understand the concept of chaos. Oh well. Didn't expect that much anyway.

 

As far as believing in Jesus and being a Christian, I think that only one thing matters above all others, and that is the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If one has that, all other things come in second. We may disagree on everything else, but that one thing, that is the only thing that matters when you are face to face with the Creator. My prayer is that no matter how one believes, that they except Jesus Christ as their personal King and Savior.

Personal relationship with Jesus?

 

Do you drink beer with him? Does him come for dinner? Do you watch football together? What shoe size does he have?

 

Oh, you mean that the personal relationship you have with Jesus is all in your mind. Don't you?

 

I have personal relationships with a lot of people, real people. I'm talking about people you can touch, smell, talk to, and who will answer you.

 

Can you physically see Jesus? Can you call him on your cellphone?

 

Your personal relationship is bullshit. It's just another religious buzz word that doesn't mean what it says.

 

PS Thanks Ourborus for the Christian websites on the old earth, I will check them out, along with others that were posted.

I told you there are Christians who believe in old earth and evolution. Get your head together and realize that I'm not joking.

 

The reason why creationism doesn't have equal opportunity for debate is because 99% of scientists reject it. The same reason why astronomers find it a waste of time debating with UFO conspirators.

 

 

I will ask you for some proof on this one my friend.

I gave you the link to a website with Project Steve. There are more scientists with the name Steve who supports evolution than there are Christian scientists who refute it. There has been studies showing that at least 95% of all scientists in America supports evolution. If you include Europe, the number will be even higher.

 

The websites and scientists you have provided that are against old earth and evolution are fringe groups. They are examples of a few people who try really hard to disprove something that is solid. They don't want old earth or evolution to be true, so they work so hard on disproving it. And I gave you a website with a scientists who argued against one of your websites, and he pointed out the lies in your website. And furthermore, a huge number of those Christians scientists aren't even scientists, many of them are engineers and lawyers, not scientists in the field they are rejecting. Don't ask a coffee shop owner how to do a brain surgery, they don't have the same education. M'kay.

 

 

I will check all websites given, and some of what was stated I just might find out to be true, who knows.

 

God bless

Whatever. I know that even if you were taken to a lab and proven how bacteria is changing it's DNA through mutations and natural selection, or even if you would be taken to a observatory and saw the was distance of the stars and shown the massive calculations these geniuses do, you would still hold on to your petty faith, because it comforts you. You want science to be wrong. And you want your religion to be true. That's the bottom line, so there's no real use to continue these discussions.

[Ouroboros]

So how about it. I want real evidence that God exists, not just your words, words, words... blah, blah, blah.

 

Show me God, and I'll believe.

 

...

 

I'm waiting...

[Kathlene]

Stranger, here's just one video that I'd like you to watch and really think about:

 

 

 

Wow, that was seriously interesting! I could watch that guy speak all day long because he is soooooo hot

 

I dont know how many of you guys know, but I am struggling with my christianity atm. It was eye opening to watch that vid anyway.

[Antlerman]

I agree with Einstein, Spinoza, Jesus (Gospel of Thomas, Luke 17:21) and Black Elk's understanding of the Great Spirit, God/Nature ... whatever you want to call it.

 

"The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes from within the souls of people when they realize their relationship,

their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize that at the centre of the universe, dwells the Great Spirit,

and that this centre is really everywhere, it is within each of us." - Black Elk

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Pantheism says, and these words of Black Elk in fact resonate with me. I can express these things myself in many ways, but there are distinctions to be made between Pantheism and what I am hearing expressed here, or in the Bible (in certain places, not everywhere mind you).

 

Technically speaking, the Gospel of Thomas was a Gnostic text. Gnostics are not Pantheists. The verses you quoted in fact don't express a pure pantheistic view, nor do they express a pure orthodox view either for that matter - one reason I in fact do find certain passages of scripture that resonate more loudly than others (the Bible is hardly any single message or teaching!).

 

You can correct me if you think I'm wrong but to the Pantheist, the tree is God. All is God. Whereas in what I am hearing is more that the tree is the tree, but all is of God, or expressions of God. If you were to translate it as 'the Kingdom of God is within you", along with other similar passages this would speak of the Nature of God is present within all. But the distinction is that they are all they own distinct things, and not God itself. To be "one with God" is to recognize individual form as distinct, yet now in full union with that Divine essence. Spirit knowing Spirit.

 

Believe me when I say I appreciate Nature mysticism, and I think I hear in you a confusion of many schools of thought all rolled up into some amalgam of theologies under some symbol you think represents them: "Spinoza". You need to tease this apart a bit more to look at the various threads and try to understand them in a larger context. It's too smashed together right now.

[Antlerman]

First, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt the information that you had received for evidence for evolution was true and not twisted. After all, if Christians twist everything around, could not those do the same that have their own agenda?

This is silly. Have you read anything I've said? What do you know about the scientific method? Have you heard of it? Here's a primer course on what it is you need to look at: http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

 

Secondly, the evidence for evolution doesn't come from one group of scientists with some religious agenda, it comes from nearly every single field of science independently! They all confirm and point to the same thing. There is no smoke filled room of atheist scientists conspiring together to dethrone God.

 

BTW, your information about Darwin's deathbed conversion is pure fiction. The fact you clutch at crap like that says volumes about the fear that drives this entire exercise in Science Denial for you.

 

 

Again, explain me. I believe in the existence of the Divine, yet find zero problems with any of this. In fact to me, it is way, way more inspiring that the nonsense of the YEC people. I find it increases my recognition of God, whereas believing in the sort of Sunday School trash of the AiG people with their Noah's Ark proof sort of thing, reduced God to a side-show oddity level, a magic man in the sky.

 

Isn't this all really more about your inability to remove God from your preconceptions? A lack of faith, in other words? (I'm looking in there again... and this is what I see. )

 

Some of the sites given, and many more not given, have very detailed reports and scientific research that seems to support the bible, and not evolution.

And these come from groups without an interest in proving the Bible is the infallible Word of God?

 

Any of those crop up in your 'research' you can point me to?

 

Would you still believe if the information that you received some time ago had supported creation?

The harder question you have not answered which I asked is, would you still believe if everything we are saying that the evidence in fact does show regarding the age of the universe, earth, and the fact of evolution is in fact accurate?

 

I think you've answered that. No. You wouldn't believe. At least that's what you fear.

 

Why is that? What is your faith in? Your beliefs?

 

 

As I predicted, you went running off into this rabbit hole of distraction debating science, rather than addressing the real issue which is what I pointed out, and still am.

 

After all, evolution is a fairly new belief.

It's not a belief. Any more than the theory of gravity is.

 

 

Funny you see it that way. Your faith is all about what you believe, isn't it? Why else would you consider scientific theories as beliefs? You fear loosing your faith because it is tied to your mental ideas, not your heart.

 

What you have done is substitute your beliefs for faith. They now in your mind define that. If you don't have those beliefs, you loose what you imagine is faith. What you need to do is free what is inside from the traps of your beliefs. These are areas I doubt you've looked into. But its written all over you.

 

After faith then is apprehension of Truth itself, beyond all ideas and conceptions. But you can't get there hanging onto your beliefs.

 

I think often we tend try to put God in a way that we can wrap Him up in our minds, but if we could do that, God would not be God.

Which is precisely what you are doing. Read your own words here to yourself standing in front of mirror. Say them over and over to yourself until the light comes on.

 

Jesus weeps.

 

Your certainly right, just as a kid would weep for a bird feeder he made be credited to the wind of chance.

God in a box. You imagine God as being so small as needing his ego sated? "You hurt daddy's feelings". Seriously?

 

God is Light.

 

Do you understand how that is so utterly beyond petty emotions about getting recognition?

 

God is Love.

 

Love does not need anything. It is everything. It draws and flows. It is utterly beyond egotistic needs. It is the fullness of Being itself.

 

These are words you've heard, but fail to grasp, and will never grasp substituting your beliefs as Truth.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I am saddened one can look around at this world and creation and believe it all came by a big bang of chance.

Whereas I am hopeful for people such as yourself to be open to a greater experience of that Light, and not so fearful as to cower in the shadows of yesterday's ignorance.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Many here state they could not believe anymore based on evidence against the belief of the bible. First, do you know beyond a shadow of doubt the information that you had received for evidence for evolution was true and not twisted. After all, if Christians twist everything around, could not those do the same that have their own agenda?

 

My evidence against christianity was the bible. Not outside sources, but simply studying the bible.

 

Contradictions between the gospels started my doubting, and studying the so-called fulfilled prophecies in the NT (which repeatedly take OT texts completely out of context in order to fabricate fulfillments) sealed the deal for me. So, no, I was not blinded by faulty outside information, I simply came to the realization that christianity's claim about the bible being the perfect word of god is a big, fat LIE.

 

After this I was able to more properly evaluate other things in the bible without the lens of indoctrination, and that shed a whole new light on it.

 

You see, many christians just assume that nonbelievers are misinformed. However, what I've found is often the exact opposite, that quite often it's the christians who are misinformed. In fact, did you hear about the religious survey results that were in the news a few months ago? Many people were shocked that atheists and agnostics rated the HIGHEST in religious knowledge, but it doesn't surprise me at all. The more one knows about religion, the less likely one is to believe it.

[Guest end3]

So how about it. I want real evidence that God exists, not just your words, words, words... blah, blah, blah.

 

Show me God, and I'll believe.

 

...

 

I'm waiting...

 

It sounds like you are harbor a deep anger Hans. I might be totally wrong.

[Ouroboros]

So how about it. I want real evidence that God exists, not just your words, words, words... blah, blah, blah.

 

Show me God, and I'll believe.

 

...

 

I'm waiting...

 

It sounds like you are harbor a deep anger Hans. I might be totally wrong.

Yes. I'm angry with people who are full of their religious belief and use deception and lies to rant against science and at the same time demand that people should believe in their gods without any shred of evidence.

 

You have a lot better attitude about this that The Stranger, End3, so I have no reason to be irritated or upset with you.

 

But The Stranger's approach shows that he thinks that by using arbitrary and spurious arguments from fringe pseudo-scientists against a stronghold of evidence from real scientists is the same as proving God's existence.

 

It's very simple, really.

 

Either God exists, and God can prove himself. Words from The Stranger (or you) will never have the same power as God himself proving himself. I have heard literally thousands of sermons in my life. I have read more Christian books than I have read non-Christian books. I'm tired of hearing words. I want hard core cold miracles that can convince me beyond words. Very simple.

 

Until such evidence is given to me, arguing petty details or some errors here and there in the scientific field is meaningless because science works exactly that way. It tests its way through trial-and-error. Science will always be wrong about something. But science will always figure it out and correct it. Science works similar to how evolution works. The best ideas will eventually win out.

 

So how about it? Where is the evidence for God? And don't use "nature is the evidence for God," because I see Nature as the evidence for Nature.

 

Some of the anger is then based on the frustration I feel of people using deception to convert people to their religion. Another source of my anger is the frustration to talk these people and try to explain to them how things really are. They just refuse to hear and keep on pushing their product with an incessant stream of sales-talk. But on top of that, some anger comes from the fact that I feel cheated and fooled for 30 years. I feel like I finally woke up and can see how the world really works, and this silly religious construct kept me away from the truth. I truly believe I'm closer to the Truth now than I ever was, and religion (like The Stranger promotes) would take me the opposite way and put me in some kind of fantasy land. I'm done living my life under the spell of a delusional fantasy.

[Guest end3]

So how about it. I want real evidence that God exists, not just your words, words, words... blah, blah, blah.

 

Show me God, and I'll believe.

 

...

 

I'm waiting...

 

It sounds like you are harbor a deep anger Hans. I might be totally wrong.

Yes. I'm angry with people who are full of their religious belief and use deception and lies to rant against science and at the same time demand that people should believe in their gods without any shred of evidence.

 

You have a lot better attitude about this that The Stranger, End3, so I have no reason to be irritated or upset with you.

 

But The Stranger's approach shows that he thinks that by using arbitrary and spurious arguments from fringe pseudo-scientists against a stronghold of evidence from real scientists is the same as proving God's existence.

 

It's very simple, really.

 

Either God exists, and God can prove himself. Words from The Stranger (or you) will never have the same power as God himself proving himself. I have heard literally thousands of sermons in my life. I have read more Christian books than I have read non-Christian books. I'm tired of hearing words. I want hard core cold miracles that can convince me beyond words. Very simple.

 

Until such evidence is given to me, arguing petty details or some errors here and there in the scientific field is meaningless because science works exactly that way. It tests its way through trial-and-error. Science will always be wrong about something. But science will always figure it out and correct it. Science works similar to how evolution works. The best ideas will eventually win out.

 

So how about it? Where is the evidence for God? And don't use "nature is the evidence for God," because I see Nature as the evidence for Nature.

 

Some of the anger is then based on the frustration I feel of people using deception to convert people to their religion. Another source of my anger is the frustration to talk these people and try to explain to them how things really are. They just refuse to hear and keep on pushing their product with an incessant stream of sales-talk. But on top of that, some anger comes from the fact that I feel cheated and fooled for 30 years. I feel like I finally woke up and can see how the world really works, and this silly religious construct kept me away from the truth. I truly believe I'm closer to the Truth now than I ever was, and religion (like The Stranger promotes) would take me the opposite way and put me in some kind of fantasy land. I'm done living my life under the spell of a delusional fantasy.

 

Those seem like reasons enough....but I don't feel them to be the root. To me, what you describe are more manifestations of something else. Thought I would say something as that is what hit me when I read your string of responses to stranger. I don't thing you have any contempt for people in their particular spot in life.....that is why I said something.

[Antlerman]

Some of the anger is then based on the frustration I feel of people using deception to convert people to their religion. Another source of my anger is the frustration to talk these people and try to explain to them how things really are. They just refuse to hear and keep on pushing their product with an incessant stream of sales-talk. But on top of that, some anger comes from the fact that I feel cheated and fooled for 30 years. I feel like I finally woke up and can see how the world really works, and this silly religious construct kept me away from the truth. I truly believe I'm closer to the Truth now than I ever was, and religion (like The Stranger promotes) would take me the opposite way and put me in some kind of fantasy land. I'm done living my life under the spell of a delusional fantasy.

If I may? I don't like to feel like any of my experiences were a cheat to me, as in reality I was a participant in that process. I chose to believe, and it suited me for reasons. Then things changed from several directions, not the least of which was an internal change that external circumstances forced to the front. Nothing from outside suddenly creates that on the inside, but does in fact often facilitate it coming to the surface or to a head. Trauma has a way of opening us to ourselves, which otherwise we subconsciously are choosing to not look at head-on. In other words, we participated in our own slumber - just as the Stranger is, and frankly currently is actively fighting against in himself (as I am seeing).

 

There's a saying I heard recently I feel to share. "The God we don't believe in doesn't exist". That God we believed in before which suited us in where we were at, is nothing we can any longer believe in. That God does not exist. That God does not meet the needs for life now for us. We awakened to a new understanding, and that God of our childhood was not big enough to help translate the world for us now. To us, to go back and think as a child again appears as delusion and fantasy, but it wasn't to us then. We lacked the context of this stage of mind, this context of perception.

 

As you know I state that I 'believe in God', but that's tricky to say as it is not that anthropomorphic mythical expression of the Divine at all. It cannot be argued in terms of objective evidences as it is not a thing, object, or even an "it". There is no face you can put on it and say "there is is", in order to offer rational proofs. As I hear Stranger or Ray or LNC, etc presenting their arguments for God, it is arguing for the God that exists for them, a defined deity that can be named by them and pointed at and said, "That there!" That God doesn't exist for me. That God is an illusion, a mask of their understandings. What they are arguing for is their understanding, not God. And to them, as I said recently to Stranger, that understanding, that belief becomes a substitute for "God". Their apologetic are not about God, but about their beliefs as God. It is centered around their ego needs. It is centered around them being convinced by their beliefs. It is nothing that comes from within, or if it is, then it is confused within them into objects of belief, symbols as the thing itself.

 

I guess what I am saying, or maybe offering for thought is that these definitions are not the thing itself, and that that face we put on the Infinite will take on greater depth, significance, and meaning as we approach it to help translate our world as we perceive it now. In other words, rescuing God from myth, so to speak. For myself, the rational mind is powerful and enlightens the world, but our being goes beyond reason into Being itself, and that is to me the core of spirituality. It has nothing to do with ghosts, demons, and other mythic lore. It is internal Self, in external Truth. That to me in the Unity, that salvation of our separate self into Ultimate Light. Being Itself.

 

I would never try to convince anyone of this as something to 'believe in'. It is for me, outside the reaches of beliefs, and beyond faith itself. It is simply what the world is viewed as and experienced by me now, having moved beyond that early structures of myth. That God no longer exists.

[Ouroboros]

Those seem like reasons enough....but I don't feel them to be the root. To me, what you describe are more manifestations of something else.

I think it's the last reason that I mentioned that is probably the root. I feel betrayed by religion. Religious people, teachings, books, and the Bible all say something that I realized was not true. I feel offended and angered that it took that long for me to see this and get out. I wish it had happened earlier.

 

So when people like The Stranger comes and preach his gospel (on a website for Ex-Christians), I feel that here we have someone who is still in that deluded state of mind and is trying to sell his snake oil. And no evidence against his snake oil is ever enough to make him see the error of his way.

 

Thought I would say something as that is what hit me when I read your string of responses to stranger. I don't thing you have any contempt for people in their particular spot in life.....that is why I said something.

I do have some contempt for people, for those who insist on not using their brain. The majority of people have more brain capacity than they're using. If they only spent some time learning and thinking, they would understand so many more things. But they don't. Instead they stay in their bliss of ignorance. That upsets me, and I feel some contempt to people who does that. At least try to learn and understand. That's all I'm asking.

 

But do I have contempt to people's particular views or beliefs as such, not at all. We don't know everything, and I have beliefs that are unproven as well in my life. We all do. So it's not the false belief that upsets me, but it's really just the fact that people tend to refuse to face their beliefs.

 

The key is that if your belief and The Stranger's belief are true, then they're strong enough to face anything. So why don't you and The Stranger start reading books about evolution, books that were written by those who support evolution. Why stay with the books by apologists? What is there to fear? Is there an underlying fear that it might be true and that's why these fringe websites are so intriguing? If evolution and old earth is so incredible wrong and only based on guesswork, then both of you could read all books there is by every scientist in the field and immediately spot every fault in them. It shouldn't be a problem.

 

So see this as a challenge. Are you and The Stranger willing to read real books about evolution?

[Ouroboros]

I agree completely with you A-man (except about making a choice), and I don't know if you have realized that I do have a "God"-image of my own.

 

It started actually several years ago and has developed over time. And I have a strong feeling that we share this image, you and I. I see the world, reality, the universe, nature, all that exist is part of a power far greater than us individuals. This power is not personal like the Christian God, so I still feel that I can say I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the traditional God. Instead, I have give the name "God" to the things that are.

 

My change came when I read about how some scientist explained that consider the universe and the world we live in is a result of a process of given physical laws, and that this process gave rise to life and consciousness, it means that life and consciousness is an innate potential in the physical laws of nature. Life and consciousness is part and the offspring of the physical world. We are the sons and daughters of God, God Nature.

 

I suspect my views are very much alike Einstein's, Spinoza's, and other naturalists. And I'm not afraid of calling it whatever I want, even God, but I tend to avoid it only because of the confusion it creates in dialogue with those who believe in a personal God.

 

The part of making a choice, you said

If I may? I don't like to feel like any of my experiences were a cheat to me, as in reality I was a participant in that process. I chose to believe, and it suited me for reasons. Then things changed from several directions, not the least of which was an internal change that external circumstances forced to the front. Nothing from outside suddenly creates that on the inside, but does in fact often facilitate it coming to the surface or to a head.

Even if we make a choice, we make the choice based on what we know. And we have a choice of knowing more or learning more about what we believe in.

 

As a Christian, I was terrified of reading literature that would contradict my faith. So I made a decision to stay illiterate about evolution and old age earth because I believed that what I believe was the truth. Not until I was faced with too much of reality that didn't fit my belief, did I realize that I was wrong, and I started to change on the inside.

 

Considering that we are part and one with the world and our environment, I'd say there is a strong connection between external and internal. The choice comes from inside based on what we experience and learn from the external. What we experience and what we learn is in turn based on what direction we decide to walk. So it's a symbiotic relationship between internal and external, choice and experience, mind over matter and matter over mind.

 

It still means to me that I feel cheated of not having the knowledge I know have until now.

[Guest end3]

If I may? I don't like to feel like any of my experiences were a cheat to me, as in reality I was a participant in that process. I chose to believe, and it suited me for reasons. Then things changed from several directions, not the least of which was an internal change that external circumstances forced to the front. Nothing from outside suddenly creates that on the inside, but does in fact often facilitate it coming to the surface or to a head. Trauma has a way of opening us to ourselves, which otherwise we subconsciously are choosing to not look at head-on. In other words, we participated in our own slumber - just as the Stranger is, and frankly currently is actively fighting against in himself (as I am seeing).

 

Shit, you are finally saying something worthwhile.....and when he faces what has hurt him on a core level, and sacrifices his wall, then the opening up, the loss of baggage as some say, will reveal new growth, or glory to glory as we Christards call it. IT HURTS US to do so and let others know that we are human.....being known. What point is no relationship if we can't reveal "God" to each other through these encounters....Spiritual, Natural, or whatever.

 

End of sermon. We will now pass the plate for contributions....

[Robbobrob]

the stranger, on 03 December 2010 - 12:57 AM, said: After all, evolution is a fairly new belief.

 

This begs the question: Then why do you believe Christianity over Judaism? Or Norse Gods? or Greek? or Roman? Or an other older belief system?

 

What does age of a belief have to do with anything, really?

 

I always find that funny...science has always been looking for the newest, most explanatory theories, while many religionists of all faiths tend to cling to the oldest ideas (that they are comfortable with) and shun new evidence and new was of explaining.

 

(btw, hi guys....long time since I have been here, glad to see the regulars are still at it.)

[★ Citsonga ★]

Wow, that was seriously interesting! I could watch that guy speak all day long because he is soooooo hot

 

I dont know how many of you guys know, but I am struggling with my christianity atm. It was eye opening to watch that vid anyway.

 

Glad you liked the video and that it was thought-provoking.

 

I seem to recall having seen another post of yours implying that you were having doubts about your faith again. Good luck in your search for truth.