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    •  Many apologists will say that the arguments for God’s existence should be seen as a cumulative case rather than any single argument being a reason for belief on its own. This is understandable as the majority of arguments for God are second hand inference, God of the gaps or incredulity based, so as evidence goes none of it should not be convincing on its own.

      The cumulative case works in both directions, as there are many reasons to disbelieve in a God’s existence, but any single argument may not be convincing on its own. With that in mind, here are a few of the more common reasons for disbelief and the rabbit hole of questions that these reasons lead to:  
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    • The evidence is clear that evil and suffering exist.
      The evidence that god exists?  No one really has any.
      Moreover, we know that even if a god does exist, evil and suffering obviously do not offend him.  If it did, he'd have put a stop to it by now.  After all, if he is omniscient, then he knows how much evil and suffering there is; and how broken and miserable it makes human existence.  If he really is omnibenevolent, then he wants to prevent his children from brokenness and misery.  If he really is omnipotent, then he has the ability to prevent the evil and suffering that causes brokenness and misery.  And if he really is omnipresent, then he is present every where that evil and suffering exist.
      If god is all of these things, and evil and suffering offend him, then why do evil and suffering continue to exist?  Why has he not moved to alleviate his own offense and save us all in the process? The simple fact that evil and suffering continue in this world is, in itself, evidence that god is not offended by it... or maybe god isn't the omni-max he's made out to be... or maybe god simply does not exist. 
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    • Animal suffering is a subject which I have thought of as simply a variation on the problem of suffering.  If God loved every one of His creations, then why would He set up a system where predators need to kill live prey to survive.  It's a system designed around killing, which is hard to reconcile with a loving, good God.
      However, I came across some other implications of animal suffering that expand the subject in several interesting ways.  The first was that if you are an old Earth creationist, so accept evolution, then the creation of every species that we see was guided by the principles of survival of the fittest, with evolutionary pressure being horrendous suffering (predation, disease, starvation, conflict etc).  The tool that God decided to use was untold misery for hundreds of millions of years, before we get to our current world of diverse life.
      The fact that thousands of T-Rex stalked the lands killing to survive, can't be seen as necessary, when they are all extinct long before His chosen people come along.  Hundreds of millions of years of creatures being torn limb from limb, before any of it mattered for our existence.  Why have that time period of suffering without benefit?
      I was talking to a vegan, who said God loves all of His creations, and believing that Christians should be vegan because killing His creations was against His will.  This just led to pointing to the horrors of the OT, where God requests burnt sacrifices on a regular basis, saying that the smell was pleasing to Him.  Or to the Israelites attacks on various cities, where they are told to kill all of the inhabitants, including the innocent animals.  King Saul even angered God for not murdering all of the animals, as some were taken as plunder.
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    • Hello,
      I guess our reasons for joining this site are slightly different for each person and yet perhaps desperation might be a common theme. So, with that said, a brief introduction. I have been involved with Christianity for many years. Out of sheer despair, I suppose I ended up finding this site. 
      Here is my experience with Christianity:
      The unhappiest times of my life were when I got myself involved in Christianity. I marvel at those who appear to be at ease with it all. I conclude, there's something wrong with me. 
      Never, have I felt more powerless, worthless, unfree. 
      • 9 replies
    • Failed prayer, the idea that there is an invisible being , listening to everyones thoughts is beyond laughable. 
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  • Who's Online   2 Members, 0 Anonymous, 38 Guests (See full list)

    • AnonSan
    • TheRedneckProfessor
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  • Recent Posts

    • AnonSan
      I'd say everyone's experience with the Christianity and church are unique, complex, and justified why we left in the first place for sure.    Before logic and emotional well-being developed during my childhood, I felt that something was amiss, but lacked the developed worldview and complex thoughts that described such intuition, while my family and social circle established the "church life" as the norm. I recall being disengaged in Sunday school because arts and crafts were more tangible than sitting through Bible lessons. I genuinely could not get into the redundancy of Bible studies and its legalism until I was forced to do so. I almost became a shell of myself as God/church evolved into a personality trait. Even when I was in the rabbit hole, I struggled to match the intellect and charisma of my more, successful peers viewed as the future role models in "building up the church."   Aside from the religious and family trauma rooted in my church of origin, it turned out deep in my subconscious I REALLY loathed dabbling deep into (illogical) theology and scripture, but forced myself to do it to be accepted in church community and not get harassed by youth leaders. Yet, my parents and church leaders blamed me and others for not liking/understanding scripture and leaving the church because of "worldly distractions/temptations" and not reading the Bible enough. Their dismissiveness was the earliest memory that got me thinking, "Why I am participating in something that I never liked doing in the first place, especially if my best was not good enough for others?" It freed me from the unnecessary burden brought to myself from the church peer pressure. Afterwards, I stopped reading Bible scriptures and only attended church events/potlucks for the social aspect (who doesn't like free food and BBQ?). Eventually, my logical and emotional aspect developed enough that I could no longer tolerate their groupthink and deliberate ignorance of my former church community that I left Christianity for good. 
    • moxieflux66
      He came to Rome from Sinope (Turkey) around 142-143 while the early church was trying to work out its canon. He met and was influence by a Gnostic Christian named Cerdo (according to the online Brittanica), who believed that the creator of earth was created by a 'demiurge', a lesser god than the one who created the Universe. Marcion expanded on that concept.    According to New World Encyclopedia, he rejected the entire Hebrew bible and believed that god was the de facto source of evil, either through ignorance or spite.    Again from the New World Encyclopedia:    Marcion called God (Hebrew God) the Stranger God, or the Alien God, in some translations, as this deity had not had any previous interactions with the world and was wholly unknown.    His religious sect lasted for centuries but his writings did not. As you pointed out, probably wiped out by Catholicism. There's a gnostic element to his teachings but apparently quite a difference between the two.     
    • moxieflux66
      I have had that book for decades. ***shudder*** and I agree with you. 
    • moxieflux66
      Yes, Weezer. I sent the swinging couple here to try to try to get more folks for my swinger's group of old folks! Those two were a bit young for our tastes and her big boobs kept getting in the way so we had to send them packing (so to speak).      Anybody else up for a good time? 😉   That said, I am worried about you. Please be good to yourself and be well. ❤️
    • Casualfanboy16
      Oh my god! I hope they find all that out. Hope you're doing okay now, at the very least.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      I didn't become a scientist until years after my deconversion; and I've only developed the ability to use classical logic over the past few years.  You can look back to my early days on this website to see that there is a marked difference between 2014 and now.  Rational thinking and emotional control were both skills that I had to deliberately train myself to learn and use.  They were goals that I set for myself and only accomplished through stubbornness and determination.  There may have been a seed or kernel there waiting to grow; but at the time of my deconversion, there wasn't even fertile soil.  I was a purely emotional person, ruled by whim and whimsy.
    • Weezer
      I thought you were a logically minded scientist.  And somewhere along the line you developed some grit.  You may not have realized it, but it was there waiting to be developed.
    • Weezer
      I apologize.  My mind misread what you were saying about sex being normal.  I got it in my mind you were advocating polyamory, and/or swinging.  I think I need to take a "vacation"from posting until they find out why my blood pressure is dropping so low at times.  It is becoming obvious that my thinking is being distorted at times.  I stopped driving a few days ago, after having an episode of suddenly not knowing where I was or where I was going.  It took a few minutes to get reoriented.  And later had a very brief fainting spell.     I checked my BP a few minutes ago and it is normal, Ha! at least for now.  I reread what I wrote about swinging earlier and it is as I remember the findings.     Yes, that is true of some tribes, and the kids are accepted and loved, and seem to come out "okay".  Especially if you talk to the men.  What they don't tell you is that many tribes have a huge domestic violence problem.  The women are learning it doesn't take several men to get her pregnant, and she doesn't have to take abuse.  That kind of living doesn't work in our larger societies today.
    • Casualfanboy16
      I also agree with @TheRedneckProfessor because I was still messed up mentally and emotionally when I came to that conclusion. I think it really depends on the person.
    • TheRedneckProfessor
      I'm not sure I agree with this.  I was the farthest thing from logically minded or emotionally secure when I first came to the conclusion.  Logic and emotional stability have both been long-fought-for achievements that didn't even begin until much later.  Maybe I'm an outlier to an otherwise general rule.  I don't know.  I only know that my own experience was different. 
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    • Casualfanboy16


      If I go to Hell I want my preferred method of torture to be spun around and cooked like a silly little rotisserie chicken. 🍗
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    • Casualfanboy16


      Y'all think God and Satan should just make tf up already and like maybe kiss with tongue or something? A little enemies-to-lovers character arc might do them some good. Just sayin'....
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