KT45 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It's so simple a child could understand this. This is a statement I do not really understand at all. I'm not even sure why christians would say this. The bible is an incredibly hard book to read and comprehend!! Especially for a child. I remember memorizing this verse as a child and they made it into a little song that sticks with me to this day. 1 John 5:7 for there are three that bear a record in heaven, the father the word and the holy ghost and these three are one This may be wrong depending on what translation you are reading but that's how I was taught it. Now as a child I didn't understand this at all until someone told me it was supposed to be the trinity. I just accepted it and moved on. But what I'm saying is there is no way a child would ever understand this on his or her own! I mean scholars debated this for years and you expect a child to simply comprehend the meaning. here are examples to show that the bible isn't so simple to understand First of all they tell you to start in the new testament and skip the old and begin by reading whatever gospel they feel is best like Matthew or Luke or something. All bibles now come with commentary. They do this because it is freakin hard to understand. Especially the metaphors and the figurative speech. You need a preacher (or for the kiddies a sunday school teacher) to explain every little bit to you There are books about the bible that explain the bible since it clearly can't explian itself I'm sure there are more that show that the bible is hard to understand but can you explain why christians think that kids can understand this. Any christians please answer as well! Oh if anyone has any kids try this. Tell them to read a certain passage in the bible like the one I mentioned or even a simpler one and ask them what they think it means. This is just an experiment for fun!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I think the christians who spout this malarkey are thinking more of a preliterate toddler than an older, inquisitive child who seeks information on the nature of things. Actually, the proverbial child must be no more than two and maybe younger, certainly not yet advanced to the stage where kids respond to every statement with "Why?" That is, the bible and christian dogma may sound just fine IF you don't really know much about it, don't read it, and just accept whatever an authority figure (e.g., your pastor) tells you -- just like a very tiny tot who has no experience otherwise will accept whatever mom and dad says as truth. Whenever I hear a christian claim that "it's so simple," I know that is someone who never actually studied the bible. Studying it and comparing it with other books and viewpoints is, in fact, what led so many of us to grow up and reject christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 When I was a child, the church my family sometimes attended gave me a Bible for my very own, Today's English Version I believe (a paraphrase). The language is put into the simplest terms, rendering the Gospel accounts more or less intelligible to a child as young as 8. Back then, my favorite part of the Scriptures were the parables - simple stories that had a message, a point to them (indeed, that is why Jesus used that technique: so the uneducated could understand Him). I stumbled on things I could not understand at times (a notable example would be when I opened the Old Testament up to "The Sin of Lot's Daughters"). My family is not Christian, so my understanding of the Word remained unchanged for many years... sporadic Sundays and an occasional peek at the Bible was not enough. I do believe that children need to have the Bible explained to them, with an adult to act as a guide. The Bible can be a confusing book to a child, with lengthly histories/genealogies, unrhyming poems, incomprehensible prophecy... if I ever have children, I will read the Gospels to them from an early age, and help them make sense of the rest as they get older. When they are at the age where they can think for themselves, I wil challenge them to think - I have not forbidden myself the writings of those who oppose Christianity, I will not hide them from my children - lest they discover them on their own and consider themselves deceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VorJack Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 When I was a child, the church my family sometimes attended gave me a Bible for my very own, Today's English Version I believe (a paraphrase). The language is put into the simplest terms, rendering the Gospel accounts more or less intelligible to a child as young as 8. Back then, my favorite part of the Scriptures were the parables - simple stories that had a message, a point to them (indeed, that is why Jesus used that technique: so the uneducated could understand Him). With me it was a bible in comic book format. I seem to remember the artwork was pretty good and they didn't shy from the more brutal aspects of the Hebrew Testament. I've seen bible story books for even younger children, with stories like "Adam, Eve, and the No-No Fruit." Throw in things like vegi-tales videos and christian children's music CD's, kids can get a basic primer on the bible at a very young age. (though let me tell you, getting stuck in a van with a 2 year old who wants to listen to her CD of christian songs repeatedly for hours could make an angry atheist out of anyone.) Thing is, all of these are particular interpretations of the bible. They carefully teach certain stories and avoid others. Kids will hear about Jonah but not about Job. It's a pretty effective way to socialize a kid into the dominate stream of christian thought without messing around with instruction or logic. And yes, maybe the kid will ask uncomfortable questions, like whether Adam came before or after the cave men (that was mine), but by and large they will absorb it. That's what kids do, absorb the rules, behaviors and social mores that surround them. Get 'em started young, and they'll grow up thinking that "this is just they way things are." So kids grow up hearing Jesus tell them to love their neighbor, and never hear all those uncomfortable parts about giving away everything you own and taking up the cross. We don't really want kids growing up to become itenerate preachers. All the troubling parts that conflict with modern culture get smoothed over, and these clean-up versions stay in their heads. How many nativity scenes, christmas carols and kids christmas stories stop and deal with the conflicts between the Matthew and Luke accounts? We don't really want kids to think they shouldn't get married, no matter what Paul suggested, nor do we intend for women to wear the dress code he insisted on. Better just drop those. All those times he said christians should greet each other with a kiss? Ewww, do we look french to you? Leave those lines out of our new version of "The Bible for Fetuses." A child isn't ready for the real bible. They haven't been instructed on which parts they can ignore yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 ......... The Bible can be a confusing book to a child, with lengthly histories/genealogies, unrhyming poems, incomprehensible prophecy... if I ever have children, I will read the Gospels to them from an early age, and help them make sense of the rest as they get older. When they are at the age where they can think for themselves, I wil challenge them to think - I have not forbidden myself the writings of those who oppose Christianity, I will not hide them from my children - lest they discover them on their own and consider themselves deceived. Ruth, let me see if I've got this straight...You plan to BRAINWASH your children from the womb up, feeding them only a sanitized version of Christianity. And then afterwards, you will encourage "free thought"? Challenging them to "think for themselves", by revealing the bible to them in all it's gory details? And you believe that after they've been exposed to the ugliness of what the bible REALLY says, KNOWING that you HID this from them, (conning them to believe that god is love) that they WON'T realize that you've deceived them? Whom do you think you're fooling? Yours is a set-up for cognative dissonance. You're going to get them to TRUST a religion, and THEN you're going to yank their comfy rug right out from under them? You're going to screw up your kids, not help them. If you TRULY want to train your kids in free thought, and NOT deceptively tip the scales in favor of your beliefs, then allow them to grow up as agnostics. Don't try to pass on your beliefs. Allow them to read and study about ALL religions when they feel like examining them. And NOT in your controlled environment and under your direction, as you "smooth over" difficult passages and hide biblical atrocities, like 42 children being eaten by two bears and god ordering the genocide of men, women, and INFANTS just to complete a land grab for Israel. Ruth, YOUR proposed method is the very definition of "brainwashing and deception." It's cruelty. Don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I just think they don't understand what it means when it says a child could understand it. I think it means that a child doesn't understand the notion of being separate from other people. That is, until they learn it. They have a sense of oneness. It's innate in children until it is ruined by things such as literal Christianity (of course there are many other things too). Sometimes the irony makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 Okay I'm sick of this. Paul_S said in another thread that the bible is so simple a child could understand it. Here is the quote We differ in our understanding of the differing accounts. I understand all the accounts as being true. And that there are omissions in detail. You reject that understanding, that the differences are mere omissions of detail If the gospels are supposed to be Gods word why does he make is open to criticism by writing in such anomalies in the different resurrection accounts? Surely if he was the author we could at least expect a straightforward and consistant account of what is the key gospel incident. Why does he make it so very hard for people to believe? The accounts are simple, that a child has no problem with them. Your joking! Xtian apologists have been debating what the words have meant for nearly 2,000 years. So then, you'er arguing that that would have to make all those Christian apologist wrong because children have no problem with the simple accounts. I will probably find something myself but can someone do this. Make a list of passages to have a child read? I will give the passages to a kid, have them read them and ask them to tell me what they mean without a preacher there to help them understand and without them reading any commentary. Just straight scripture. I don't care what translations I just want to show that most children aren't going to understand this rubish. I want to debunk this now!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I will probably find something myself but can someone do this. Make a list of passages to have a child read? I will give the passages to a kid, have them read them and ask them to tell me what they mean without a preacher there to help them understand and without them reading any commentary. Just straight scripture. I don't care what translations I just want to show that most children aren't going to understand this rubish. I want to debunk this now!!! I don't happen to have a kid handy at the moment, but I remember that my little cousin was completely flummoxed by the lord's prayer. She understood the first line "Our father who aren't in heaven" That made sense because her dad was alive and NOT in heaven. But she was thrown by "Howard be thy name," inasmuch as her father is named Charles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 10, 2006 Author Share Posted July 10, 2006 Sorry I meant give me a list that I could have a child read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I think it means that a child doesn't understand the notion of being separate from other people. That is, until they learn it. They have a sense of oneness. It's innate in children until it is ruined by things such as literal Christianity (of course there are many other things too). Sometimes the irony makes me sick. I have to disagree with you. It isn't that chillins have a sense of oneness, it's that they can't separate the world from themselves, ie purely egocentric. They see the world as just a part of themself, they think their "self" is the only "Self." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcissist Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 It is both marketting spin and ear candy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 With me it was a bible in comic book format. I seem to remember the artwork was pretty good and they didn't shy from the more brutal aspects of the Hebrew Testament. Lol, no shit! That was my first Bible too. I was trying to remember the name of it. Something like "the picture bible"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 It is both marketting spin and ear candy. exactly, narcissist. I think it's one of the many things christians say, which they themselves know can't be taken literally. To say this is a rhetorical strategy designed to nullify intellectual inquiry and depict the questioner as morally deficient compared to the purity of the imaginary child in the slogan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I think it means that a child doesn't understand the notion of being separate from other people. That is, until they learn it. They have a sense of oneness. It's innate in children until it is ruined by things such as literal Christianity (of course there are many other things too). Sometimes the irony makes me sick. I have to disagree with you. It isn't that chillins have a sense of oneness, it's that they can't separate the world from themselves, ie purely egocentric. They see the world as just a part of themself, they think their "self" is the only "Self." I agree, but if they can't separate the world from themselves, wouldn't that still be considered 'oneness'? I see what you are saying...that children don't know that the entire world is not part of them. It's the same thing, IMO. I think the term 'ego' wouldn't come into use until that separation is realized. Ego means: "The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves." You and I both would agree that the child doesn't see themselves as "distinct from the world and other selves." I would say there is no difference whether the child can separate themselves from the world or the world from themselves until the notion of separation is internalized in their mind by whatever means. After the realization that they are not part of everything (whether true or not), or vise-versa, then the ego needs to be rejected (to a degree) in order to attain, or understand, that state of 'oneness'. The notion of rejecting material things, such as in Christianity, is part of this attainment. I feel the ego only develops after they see themselves as not part of everything (regardless of which end of the candle is being burnt ). It's a natural progression that occurs by our sense of awareness and exasperated by misunderstandings such as literal Christianity. I think this is what the original biblical message is...and hence the irony. They say they are rewarded individually here and the afterlife, yet this message, and many more, speak of everyone being saved...everyone being one with God. They recieve mixed messages, from a literal standpoint, so they drop the 'oneness' notion in order to think of themselves (ego). It doesn't have anything to do with the intelligence of the child. It's a lot harder to attain this state after one understands (true or not) that they are separate. It's not so simple, IMO. A child could only 'know' it by it being born in them. You can't just set them down and tell them about it and expect them to understand it. If the literal Christians believe this to be the case, then they are missing the message, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Ok, thanks for clearifying NBBTL, and for the most part I agree. Perhaps I will start a separate topic on "oneness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Ok, thanks for clearifying NBBTL, and for the most part I agree. Perhaps I will start a separate topic on "oneness." That would be great. I know that many people have discussed this in other threads, but I can't find a thread where that was the topic itself. Of course, my search function didn't seem to be working for me either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Ok, thanks for clearifying NBBTL, and for the most part I agree. Perhaps I will start a separate topic on "oneness." That would be great. I know that many people have discussed this in other threads, but I can't find a thread where that was the topic itself. Of course, my search function didn't seem to be working for me either. I'll start it when I'm actually awake and able to think deeply-ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I first read the entire Bible when I was about 12. I had many questions. Nobody could answer things like why it was okay to stone people, why dragons were evil when they were fairy tales, exactly how god made the animals talk, how exactly was it fair for god to punish people for building a tower and understanding each other since that would have led to world peace, why was it okay to hate gay people and witches and non-Christians when god commanded people to love one another, etc. Needless to say, I was never the most popular kid at my church school, and being naturally inquisitive didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demona- Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 The verses-turned-songs I got taught in the church's kids' choir were happy fluffbunny songs like this one: Beloved (beloved) Let us love one another (love one another) For love is of God And everyone that loveth is born of God And knoweth God He that loveth not (*clapclapclap*) Knoweth not God For God is love (God is love) Beloved (beloved) Let us love one another First John 4, 7 and 8! And.... King of kings and Lord of lords Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! King of kings and Lord of lords Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Jesus, Prince of Peace Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Jesus, Prince of Peace Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Needless to say, the "harder stuff" was skimmed over in favour of the nice and sweet faerie-tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scitsofreaky Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 King of kings and Lord of lords Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! King of kings and Lord of lords Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Jesus, Prince of Peace Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Jesus, Prince of Peace Glory, (*clap*) Hallelujah! Needless to say, the "harder stuff" was skimmed over in favour of the nice and sweet faerie-tales. Oh man, I just had the first 18 years of my life flash before my eyes. Sunday school was certainly the most washed down teaching of the Bible, with the least references to blood, although the topic of death cannot be avoided because it is the basis for the religion. It seems that as I got older, more blood was added, until it peaked at being figuratively washed in blood. Disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 When I look back and think about all those bible stories I heard as a kid, I'm amazed at how they managed to tell so may of them in a positive light. Like the Noahs Ark story. Wow! Noah built and ark and got all those animals aboard and rescued Noah and his family and the animals. But I never really thought too much about the horror of all those people, children and animals that didn't get on the ark. Same with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It seemed the true horror of these stories were nicely disguised. And it’s funny how a lot of things were conveniently ignored in children’s bible stories. Like the story of Moses, the bit where he murders somebody is ignored. All the confusing bits in the Creation story are left out completely. All those terrible and confusing things are left for you till you get older and start to study the bible for yourself. And even then you tend to skip over the bits that don’t make sense or are uncomfortable to read. Simple reading? Man, I’ve been studying the bible for 30 years and I still find it hard going. It takes years of study to understand parts of it, and even then it’s not obvious, because other people disagree with your interpretations. The problem with these so-called simplified bibles and all these cross notes, commentaries and references is that they have all been written from somebodies “point of view”. Someone who has their own preconceived ideas of what the scriptures are saying. So therefore may be completely incorrect interpretations and views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeday Posted July 25, 2006 Share Posted July 25, 2006 i will admit, there are plenty of verses a child can not understand, and the poetry of psalms i can't even understand. but i think that Jesus said we should have a child like faith. they believe what they are told when coming from an authoritative person. thus we should do the same, believe what we are told we coming from God (the total authority). i think the basis can be explained to a child with relative ease and understanding. and for the most part, i could strategically pick out verses in the bible to convey this message in an easy to understand wording. and yes 2 hours of veggie tales on a road trip will almost make you turn athiest, take the CD, curse violently while breaking it and throwing it out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 but i think that Jesus said we should have a child like faith. they believe what they are told when coming from an authoritative person. thus we should do the same, believe what we are told we coming from God (the total authority). i think the basis can be explained to a child with relative ease and understanding. and for the most part, i could strategically pick out verses in the bible to convey this message in an easy to understand wording. Freeday, and maybe these NT teachings warn against literalist interpretations? 1 Corinthians 13:11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 but i think that Jesus said we should have a child like faith. they believe what they are told when coming from an authoritative person. thus we should do the same, believe what we are told we coming from God (the total authority). i think the basis can be explained to a child with relative ease and understanding. and for the most part, i could strategically pick out verses in the bible to convey this message in an easy to understand wording. Freeday, and maybe these NT teachings warn against literalist interpretations? 1 Corinthians 13:11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Amen sister! What freeday believes is exactly what the church wants. Your total devotion to "their" authority. All they had to do was claim that it was from God and "children" fall into line. What a perfect "literal" interpretation for the church to pounce upon. (I really don't know, but it seems awefully convenient!) Personally, I don't think that verse freeday is referring to means that at all. I don't think you do either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 27, 2006 Author Share Posted July 27, 2006 Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old, he will not depart from it Translation Proverbs 22:6 Brainwash a child in the way you wish him to be, and even when he is old, he will not depart from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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