chefranden Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 oh you know how it is mwc. when ever we bring up a valid point, especially words that come from the bible, it gets ignored. for example: when you listed the original words hell was mistakenly translated from to amy marie. she addressed everyone else except for that. and she still continued to say, "be afraid of hell" to ricky18. Yeah, I've come to expect it really, and considering the lengths old KevinH has gone through to twist around the words of others in the thread I don't really care. I've learned that xians have pretty damned selective vision when faced with facts (that just keep on coming and coming). Maybe they'll get lucky and all this shit in the middle east will destroy any/all evidence that will disprove their fantasies once and for all and they can live in happiness? mwc My that sounds good enough to be God's plan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightley Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 What part of "most of us left Christianity because we READ and dismissed the bible because we could not via logic and reason and plain common sense accept what we once thought was true" are you having a hard time comprehending? Are you not 29 years old, can you not understand what we've priorly told you? And, if you did understand, why are you wasting webspace by posting the same crap again? Those phrases are actually on a list of pet peeves that many of us have here, not a cause of us leaving the 'faith'. Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 This guy is quite anoying....not many christians make me mad enough to cus anymore. But for crying out loud, the last 3 of my posts he responded to he twisted what I said or even directly misquoted me in order to make me look like an idiot. So much for christian morals...this guy is quite willing to lie in order to win an argument. Apologists are predictable. They spin, argue against strawmen, twist, claim context, claim unimportance, and blatantly lie in order to keep their bigger lie in tact. When called on these issues they resort to ignoring the problem and changing the subject. What's irritating about our friend Kev is that he surely must know that he is stooping to these tactics, which makes his arguments utterly disingenuous and calls into question his sincerity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgnosticBob AtheistPants Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Kevin H says: God does not torture anyone for eternity for failure to comply. I don't blame you for rejecting that Staw Man. But previously Kevin H said: We come to Christ for salvation from the coming wrath of a holy and righteous God before whom we will stand one day. His gracious provision is the Cross. Or, you can stand before God on your own terms and merit and take your best shot. Good luck. Well which is it Kevin? Are we going to be sent to hell by your god for failure to accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour or are we not? And please no bullshit about him not sending us there, but our "choosing" to go there. Either your god is all powerful and all loving and can save his creations from anything including themselves or he isn't and can't. KH> I don't think hell is an anthropic torture chamber, but it is a place of seperation from God and torment; torture is external, torment is internal. Well, you may at least be on the right track. You seem to be exactly where I was about a year before I deconverted. Stay on this road and you'll eventually see the "truth" of christianity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgnosticBob AtheistPants Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 First, if Christianity is true, then all views opposed to it are false. So if Christianity is true, then Islam is not. The reverse is also true. This would apply to Docetism as well. C'mon Kevin. Let's cut to the chase. We all know that IF Christianity is true then blah blah blah. You are the only one in the conversation that BELIEVES it is true. So the onus is on you to present the case for the truth of christianity. I've seen nothing from you but IF's. Again I say, you do appear to be EXACTLY where I was about a year before deconverting. Keep coming, brother. You'll be free soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgnosticBob AtheistPants Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 KH> At least the Virgin Birth makes sense in the religio-historical context of the view (the Incarnation, prophecies, etc). Being born from a rock is not only more miraculous, it's stupid! How much more stupid an idea is birth from a rock than a burning, talking bush, talking donkey, talking snake, unicorn, cockatrice, striking a rock with a stick and water pouring from it, a valley of bones coming to life to form an army, two of every single species of animal on the planet coming to a single point on earth and fitting on a single boat, rains flooding the entire earth so that even Mount Everest was under water, a "jealous" yet "loving" and also murderous Yahweh, and the list goes on and on. I'll tell you how much more stupid it is...not much. Is that your best argument? Something that isn't of the Christian myth is simply "stupid"? It certainly seems to be your most honest argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Statements that help preserve Bred Ex-Christians. What exactly about faith in Christ is illogical or unreasonable? The claims of Christ are not "touchy-feely", but the bottom line. God does not torture anyone for eternity for failure to comply. The Scriptures nowhere say by "simply believing one can heal the sick". If Christ is who he claimed to be, then it is a requirement of God that everyone believe it. One does not need to be a Christian or a theist to recognize moral values. But one cannot account for why they exist objectively if one is a Naturalist. Facts provide support for warranted belief or faith. the New Testament is reliable, the radical claims of Christ were recorded and preserved, extra-biblical sources on Christ, And that relativism is the rub. It is tantamount to saying that there is nothing actually wrong, just whatever you happen to think is wrong or what a given society says is wrong. Relativism fails miserably. Have you examined the evidence for the resurrection of Christ? One does not need to be a Christian or a theist to recognize moral values. But one cannot account for why they exist objectively if one is a Naturalist.[/b] I can account for them. Care to have a go in the arena? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin H Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 What's the hebrew word for cockatrice? KH> The Hebrew is better translated "adder". Hey Kevin...answer me this. Where does "evil" come from? KH> Evil is a lack of or twisting of something that ought to be. Or, it is a twisting or abuse of good. One cannot have a perversion without a version. I'm sure you're thinking of Isaiah 45:7. The word means "calamity". And the satyrs. Don't forget the satyrs. The word means "hariy one" and mostly refers to wild goats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 The word means "hariy one" and mostly refers to wild goats. You mean hairy ones. A funny story to throw in here, because of your "hairy" comment. When Harry Potter first came out, my son asked me if he could get the "Hairy Potter" books for birthday. That's how it sounded, and I thought it was a story about a potter (making pots) that was extremely hairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 One does not need to be a Christian or a theist to recognize moral values. But one cannot account for why they exist objectively if one is a Naturalist.[/b] I can account for them. Care to have a go in the arena? Thinking about this for 1/2 a minute, I can't account for objective morality if you mean a morality that exists out side of human behavior. If you mean a morality that is objective like a rock is objective, then no I can't account for it. I can't account for things that cannot be demonstrated to be there. For example, I can't naturalistically account for a soul as an actual objective thingy, though I could naturalistically account for it as a concept. However, I can naturalistically account for human moral behavior, and our willingness to atribute this behavior to a god of somesort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrow Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 [... K Kevin, christianity is hurting you. It is making you hurt other people, Kevin. You are no longer thinking critically and because of that you life choices are not sound. You're a belief-addict and you don't know it or want to admit it. You are hurting yourself and other people with a silly, unrealistic, crazy, not-based-in-reality, imaginary story. There is no abrahamic god Kevin. Time to get over it now Sparrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bdp Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 There are members of this community who were Xtians for longer than Kevin has been alive; there are members of this community who were pastors, missionaries, Bible college students, and Kevin has the gall to suggest that people here are 'afraid of information.' That phrase is perhaps the most insulting thing any Xtian has ever posted here in my mind, and that it was directed at peole like Chef who could bury Kevin with more information about his religion than he ever dreamed could exist just angers me more deeply than I could express. That he has no regard for the experience of someone like Han, who screamed the contents of his very 'soul' to 'god' and was answered with only the hollow echoes of his deepest pain is absolutely galling. Any 'information' Kevin thinks he could impart couldn't even begin to fill the void we have come to see where his 'god' is supposed to exist. I loathe the arrogance that it is something they did that drove us off - it's always about them, and the idea that it was an emotional disconnect is just reflective of the emotional nature of his own conviction. If Kevin had a shred of intellectual honesty he would read the Xtimonies here before even beginning th theorize why anyone would leave Xtianity. He insulted and judged some very good people here for which I have nothing but utter contempt - I'm done with him. bdp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wideawake42 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Hey Kevin...answer me this. Where does "evil" come from? KH> Evil is a lack of or twisting of something that ought to be. Or, it is a twisting or abuse of good. One cannot have a perversion without a version. I'm sure you're thinking of Isaiah 45:7. The word means "calamity". No, that's not where I was going with this. I guess I should rephrase my question. From whence did evil originate? What was the first act of evil? Was it Lucifer's defiance of God? Was it Adam's disobedience? Where does evil come from? Please restate your answer in these terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 What's the hebrew word for cockatrice? KH> The Hebrew is better translated "adder". Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. You may want it to be an adder, but adders and their offspring don't fly and breath fire. Sorry, try again ANSWER THIS AND QUIT SKIPPING THIS QUESTION!!!!!! My real question is this. Do you see how we can reasonably disbelieve the bible or do you feel that only a fool wouldn't believe everything the bible says? Do you think it is reasonable or understandable that many people would have a hard time believe much of the bible with stories like these? Can it even seem slightly reasonable to dismiss the whole bible when it contains these stories that are often accepted as fact? Can you understand why people would not believe the bible as factual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 KH> The Hebrew is better translated "adder". The word means "hariy one" and mostly refers to wild goats. all of which begs the question of why they were translated incorrectly according to you. What exactly are your credentials to be questioning the translations that other people have produced? Do you know Hebrew and Greek or are these claims just parrots of things you've heard someone else say. I'm not mocking you here, I'm really curious as to how you are certain that the passages that mention mythical beasts are mistranslated. the people who translated it...who most likely spoke the languages in question fluently thought those were the correct translations... so what is the methodology that you used to study these supposed mistranslations and how did you come to the conclusion that these were the correct translations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck22 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 What's the hebrew word for cockatrice? KH> The Hebrew is better translated "adder". Hey Kevin...answer me this. Where does "evil" come from? KH> Evil is a lack of or twisting of something that ought to be. Or, it is a twisting or abuse of good. One cannot have a perversion without a version. I'm sure you're thinking of Isaiah 45:7. The word means "calamity". And the satyrs. Don't forget the satyrs. The word means "hariy one" and mostly refers to wild goats. If that interpretation of evil is true, then it would support the Christian world view that all of creation was "good" when created and has gone downhill since sin. All the evidence in the empirical science of biological evolution demonstrates loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhampir Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 And gain. Don't forget the gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 If Kevin had a shred of intellectual honesty Intellectual honesty is something Kevin is clearly devoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck22 Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 And gain. Don't forget the gain. The question of "gain" has always had me puzzled. I'm yet to find an explanation thats plausible. What is the mechanism that adds the necessary gain to the genetic code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 And gain. Don't forget the gain. The question of "gain" has always had me puzzled. I'm yet to find an explanation thats plausible. What is the mechanism that adds the necessary gain to the genetic code? Mutations and natural selection. And you know it already. You know we had this debate before, so leave it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Prove to me that Jesus isn't undead Right after you prove to me that Elvis isn't undead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Wait a minute Redneck, I'm catching on to Chef's comment. Lazarus was made undead also, and there's no record that he died. So Lazarus is alive too today. Prove to me that Lazarus isn't undead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Wait a minute Redneck, I'm catching on to Chef's comment. Lazarus was made undead also, and there's no record that he died. So Lazarus is alive too today. Prove to me that Lazarus isn't undead. I believe! Hail Lazarus, the resurrected holy one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT45 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Where'd Kevin go? He never did answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I've noticed it is common that some of the fundamentalists come and go, sometimes only posts once a week or once a month. KevinH was gone for 5-6 months, and now suddenly came back. Since this site probably isn't their favorite forum, they're busy somewhere else, and only come and visit now and then. Like Redneck, how often do you post? 4-5 posts a month? (And always about evolution, it seems to be a difficult area for you.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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