The Anti-christ.

[Lightbearer]

Yeah, but Jesus was supposed to come back and reign for 1000 years, while all the sinners were casted out to Hell, (after Judgement Day I think). But obvious Jesus is not hanging around and the world is still full of death, diesease, pain, sorrow and suffering... which the Bible says it was supposed to get rid of.

 

If Revelations was refering to Nero, then the prophecy is hardly fufilled. It may have been written with the perspective of Rome. Like using Rome as an example.

 

Plus the world is still here, and everyone is still not a Christian. So the prophecy is still unfufilled.

[Saviourmachine]

Does not everybody that was/is christian go through this lifestage in which they think that they are the anti-christ themselves? I did, seriously! The world was full of mystery and I would not have been surprised when I would some day saw myself developing supernatural powers. However, in some backcorner of my mind the thought was lingering that the antichrist had to be bald...

[mwc]

Revelation referred to "the Beast" who would rule over a unified world kingdom. Any wonder that Revelation was written right smack in the middle of persecutions initiated against Christians by the Roman Emperor Nero???

Actually, as I recall Revelation was written about 30 years after Nero's death. However, people believed he wasn't really dead and was in hiding or would return from the dead to continue his reign of terror. Also, his persecuation of the xians seems to have been blown out of proportion by the xian propaganda machine since there's only one real mention of him doing anything to xians and that report is debatable.

 

mwc

 

 

Plus the world is still here, and everyone is still not a Christian. So the prophecy is still unfufilled.

Are you expecting it to be fulfilled?

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

I think what the antichrist (or Dajjal in Islam) stands for is a machine...metaphorically. Not a 'real' machine, but a machine that is made of humans that act on strict rationality and logic alone and not knowing, or turning away from their spiritual side. Don't take offense here because this also would include anyone of any religion that are blind to their true nature. Fundamentalists Christians put all their spirit in the body of Christ that is floating above our heads somewhere. They are also a part of this machine because they don't see themselves as containing the God essence. Although they are not acting on logic and reason alone, they still turn away from knowing their own essence. The ones that use strict rationality and logic alone know that they are denying their spiritual side, whereas the ones that claim to be spritual are also denying their spiritual side by separating God from themselves. A machine that consists of unconscious people.

 

This is how I interpret it. I don't know how true it is, but I can see some truths in it. I think the church has turned more people away from 'God' than anything else.

[Ouroboros]

Well doesn't make sense because something can't be something and anti-something at the same time.

 

 

It's too much of a contradiction.

Depends. If the Christ Paul was referring to was not the same as the Jesus the Gospels talked about. There were many messianic movements at the time, with many "false" messiahs (Christs). I'm a firm believer that the Pauline letters are not talking about the same "Jesus" as the Gospels. Paul talked about a spiritual Jewish Messiah, while the Gospels talked about a Roman Mythological Jesus. So maybe Paul was criticizing the Gospel Jesus that started to come about, and tried to warn everyone about the anti-Christ in it. There are some people that argue that Emperor Titus were involved in making the story of the Gospels, and yet Titus was of the anti-messianic faction. I believe it is possible that the Gospels were made to deceive the messianic Jews.

[Crunk Bishop]

i think there is another thread going about prophecy, but my question here in regard to Revelation hardly having been fulfilled is:

 

What is the difference between "unfulfilled" prophecy and "just having been wrong?"

[Lightbearer]

Does not everybody that was/is christian go through this lifestage in which they think that they are the anti-christ themselves? I did, seriously! The world was full of mystery and I would not have been surprised when I would some day saw myself developing supernatural powers. However, in some backcorner of my mind the thought was lingering that the antichrist had to be bald...

 

Bald? Like Lex Luthor? You bring up a good point though. It seems alot of people are interested in the anti-Christ and the second Christ.

 

It seems everyone wants to be the hero. There have been alot of people claiming to be both and alot of people labeled as one or the other or both at the same time.

 

I think what the antichrist (or Dajjal in Islam) stands for is a machine...metaphorically. Not a 'real' machine, but a machine that is made of humans that act on strict rationality and logic alone and not knowing, or turning away from their spiritual side. Don't take offense here because this also would include anyone of any religion that are blind to their true nature. Fundamentalists Christians put all their spirit in the body of Christ that is floating above our heads somewhere. They are also a part of this machine because they don't see themselves as containing the God essence. Although they are not acting on logic and reason alone, they still turn away from knowing their own essence. The ones that use strict rationality and logic alone know that they are denying their spiritual side, whereas the ones that claim to be spritual are also denying their spiritual side by separating God from themselves. A machine that consists of unconscious people.

 

This is how I interpret it. I don't know how true it is, but I can see some truths in it. I think the church has turned more people away from 'God' than anything else.

 

Ever heard of the Human Instrumentality Program? The Dajjal, some Islamic priests think, actually seems to the television, or the computers or the internet, or a combination. I think your wrong on a minor detail, fundamentalist Christians think they are made in God's image so they display charateristics of God, but are a fallen creation. Depending on whos preaching it's further from God or close to God -- either way Jesus is the only way.

 

Are you saying we are God as an unconscious collective? Maybe I don't understand what you saying, do you care to expand on it a little further?

 

 

Depends. If the Christ Paul was referring to was not the same as the Jesus the Gospels talked about. There were many messianic movements at the time, with many "false" messiahs (Christs). I'm a firm believer that the Pauline letters are not talking about the same "Jesus" as the Gospels. Paul talked about a spiritual Jewish Messiah, while the Gospels talked about a Roman Mythological Jesus. So maybe Paul was criticizing the Gospel Jesus that started to come about, and tried to warn everyone about the anti-Christ in it. There are some people that argue that Emperor Titus were involved in making the story of the Gospels, and yet Titus was of the anti-messianic faction. I believe it is possible that the Gospels were made to deceive the messianic Jews.

 

What's the difference between the two messages? I'm not really familiar with them. One could deduce that the anti-Christ is some kind of messiah or messianic movement.

 

i think there is another thread going about prophecy, but my question here in regard to Revelation hardly having been fulfilled is:

 

What is the difference between "unfulfilled" prophecy and "just having been wrong?"

 

That's what I am getting at sort of. When one prophecies that 8 red bouncing balls will destroy San Fransico in the future, then in order for the prophecy to be fufilled 8 red bouncing balls will need to destroy San Fransico. But then you could interpret it as the balls mean something else, like astroids or something.

 

Prophecys and prophets are always vague... so it turns out they are right either way.

[Saviourmachine]

However, in some backcorner of my mind the thought was lingering that the antichrist had to be bald...

Bald? Like Lex Luthor?

No, no, more realistic. Someone like Carville*.

 

I think what the antichrist (or Dajjal in Islam) stands for is a machine...metaphorically. Not a 'real' machine, but a machine that is made of humans that act on strict rationality and logic alone and not knowing, or turning away from their spiritual side.

The machine, the system, we are raised in the era of the computer. Shape my thoughts o holy box!

 

It is difficult to be weird at times, I mean spiritual. Come on, we all know that we are biological machines. But, also I, I don't want to know that. I have a free will. I learn what I want to learn. I want because somewhere in deep dark waters hidden lives my very original, unique god: myself.

 

 

*For some reason some depict him together with Gollum:

 

 

When he smiles he's the devil himself.

[NotBlinded]

I think what the antichrist (or Dajjal in Islam) stands for is a machine...metaphorically. Not a 'real' machine, but a machine that is made of humans that act on strict rationality and logic alone and not knowing, or turning away from their spiritual side. Don't take offense here because this also would include anyone of any religion that are blind to their true nature. Fundamentalists Christians put all their spirit in the body of Christ that is floating above our heads somewhere. They are also a part of this machine because they don't see themselves as containing the God essence. Although they are not acting on logic and reason alone, they still turn away from knowing their own essence. The ones that use strict rationality and logic alone know that they are denying their spiritual side, whereas the ones that claim to be spritual are also denying their spiritual side by separating God from themselves. A machine that consists of unconscious people.

 

This is how I interpret it. I don't know how true it is, but I can see some truths in it. I think the church has turned more people away from 'God' than anything else.

 

Ever heard of the Human Instrumentality Program? The Dajjal, some Islamic priests think, actually seems to the television, or the computers or the internet, or a combination. I think your wrong on a minor detail, fundamentalist Christians think they are made in God's image so they display charateristics of God, but are a fallen creation. Depending on whos preaching it's further from God or close to God -- either way Jesus is the only way.

No...I haven't heard of that.

 

Yes, I do realize that fundamental Christians think this way. I just think they are wrong.

 

Are you saying we are God as an unconscious collective? Maybe I don't understand what you saying, do you care to expand on it a little further?

Oh...what I meant by being unconscious is what I think is true to the biblical, and others, understanding. It means that we are unconscious to the 'fact' that we are all indwelled with the Divine. When we turn away from our true nature, divine, we are sinning, or missing the mark of what it is to be human (the word sin translated from Greek). Fundamentalists of every flavor whether religious, secular or just anyone that doesn't understand this is unconscious to this Consciousness. They form and shape our society with no understanding of our connection to nature, the Divine, animals and to other humans.

[Cerise]

I find it easy to believe that Jesus was an "Anti-Christ" made into a "Christ" figure by the generations that came after him. Considering just how many "messiahs" were running around during that time, anyway.

 

But I also have no trouble believing that if Jesus does exist and come back, then he will be taking an Anti-Christ position. The miracles, the peace...and an utter revolution of scripture in the form of a new gospel, of which some will be unable to accept.

 

If you believe it happened, it happened this way the first time. Jesus was crucified for blasphemy, afterall, and I can't imagine it being much different if he returns now. Some people will always choose the scripture they know...the religion, over the present Word embodied.

 

Can you imagine if Jesus came down and produced a new gospel that said that you don't have to be "saved" in order to be his child?

 

Most christians I know would flat out refuse to accept this. In their view, a Jesus who disagrees with current scripture (or their church's teachings) cannot possibly be "Jesus" and must be a pretender.

 

In the New Testament, Jesus kept on disobeying old scripture and was denied "messiah" status by the Jews because of it.

 

Jesus as the Anti-Christ makes a whole lot of sense.

 

The Beast is change. And all old structures fear it, quite rightly, for it will destroy all they've worked for.

[Crunk Bishop]

oh, alot of the new wave people in NT studies are looking at an earlier date for the authorship of Revelation. When I was doing my Master's, I actually got into an argument over this with a prof who had written about "Christ and Community" in Revelation.

 

i think in the intro of the book he addresses the provenance issues, but i think his main argument was that Revelation seems to address none of the implications caused by the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 CE... in Revelation, the Temple is still there... leading many fundies today to insist that the Temple must be rebuilt in order for the end times to be fulfilled.

[Lightbearer]

If anyone is interested there is a program (show) about the anti-Christ on the History Channel RIGHT NOW.

 

 

They already said that the idea of the rapture was made by dispensationlists, and not specifically mentioned in the Bible.

[Scott]

There are three typse of AntiChrist that the Bible talks about. #1 is the AntiChrist who will come just before Jesus reutrns {1 John 2:18}. #2 is the antichrists who have departed from the Faith and who do not acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh {1 John 2:18-19, 22; 2 John 1:7}. #3 is the spirit of AntiChrist who was here since Jesus was on earth and is here now{1 John 4:3}. The future AntiChrist will be in direct lead with Satan, even to proclaim himself God in God's holy temple {2 Thess. 2:4,9}. The AntiChrist, who is also called the Beast {Rev. 13} will have dominion over the entire world. The only ones who will not worship him is true born again believers in the Lord Jesus {Rev. 13:8}. Once it looks like the Beast will win, Jesus will appear in heaven on a white horse with all the glorified armies of heaven following Him on white horses {Rev. 19:11-21}. This is when I believe the rapture will happen {Matt. 24:19-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Jn 14:1-3, 1 Thess. 4:16-17}}. This will happen so all the saints may be glorified with Jesus {1 John 3:2}. Jesus may come in a type of rapture before this because noone knows the day or the hour {Matt. 24:26}, and He is coming when we don't think He will {Matt. 24:44}, but the biblical evidence I see is for the posttribulation rapture. The AntiChrist will kill every Christian he can find, because they will refuse to worship the image of the Beast and receive the mark of his name {Rev. 13:15, 18; 20:4}. Anyway, all this will end with the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the lake of fire {Rev. 19:20-20}, all the armies of the Beast will be slain {Rev. 19:21}, the ultimate defeat of Satan, {Rev. 20:2-3, 7-10}, the final judgement {Rev. 20:11-15}, and eternity {Revelation 21-22}.

[Crunk Bishop]

i won't buy any of that because I think the best way to interpret Revelation is as a Preterist.

 

in short, the writer of Revelation was describing his contemporary Roman times... which have long passed away.... along with any of Revelation's significance for that matter.

[Lightbearer]

There are three typse of AntiChrist that the Bible talks about. #1 is the AntiChrist who will come just before Jesus reutrns {1 John 2:18}. #2 is the antichrists who have departed from the Faith and who do not acknowledge Jesus coming in the flesh {1 John 2:18-19, 22; 2 John 1:7}. #3 is the spirit of AntiChrist who was here since Jesus was on earth and is here now{1 John 4:3}. The future AntiChrist will be in direct lead with Satan, even to proclaim himself God in God's holy temple {2 Thess. 2:4,9}. The AntiChrist, who is also called the Beast {Rev. 13} will have dominion over the entire world. The only ones who will not worship him is true born again believers in the Lord Jesus {Rev. 13:8}. Once it looks like the Beast will win, Jesus will appear in heaven on a white horse with all the glorified armies of heaven following Him on white horses {Rev. 19:11-21}. This is when I believe the rapture will happen {Matt. 24:19-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Jn 14:1-3, 1 Thess. 4:16-17}}. This will happen so all the saints may be glorified with Jesus {1 John 3:2}. Jesus may come in a type of rapture before this because noone knows the day or the hour {Matt. 24:26}, and He is coming when we don't think He will {Matt. 24:44}, but the biblical evidence I see is for the posttribulation rapture. The AntiChrist will kill every Christian he can find, because they will refuse to worship the image of the Beast and receive the mark of his name {Rev. 13:15, 18; 20:4}. Anyway, all this will end with the Beast and False Prophet being thrown into the lake of fire {Rev. 19:20-20}, all the armies of the Beast will be slain {Rev. 19:21}, the ultimate defeat of Satan, {Rev. 20:2-3, 7-10}, the final judgement {Rev. 20:11-15}, and eternity {Revelation 21-22}.

 

 

That's what I am talking about Scott. The prophecies can just as easily apply to ancient Rome, like Crunk said as it could to a modern type "Beast"... that's why I find prophecy so fasinating. Because you can read ancient works about political and philospohical problems and they still apply to modern times.

 

I think that's what makes it so interesting for people, especially people who think that this could mean Jesus, their savior, is coming back in their lifetime and they are going to witness this great event.

 

But Scott -- why is the beast and his armies going to be thrown in the lake of fire before Judgement? Wouldn't it make more sense to do it after Judgement?

[Scott]

Crunk Bishop, I don't believe in Preterism because the book of Revelation was wriiten sometime between 90-96 A.D. The Preterist view, from what I've studied, is that Jesus came back in 70 A.D, and Nero was the AntiChrist. It is clear that Nero was an antichrist, but not the big guy himself. 70 A.D was before the book of Revelation was written, and Revelation is a look at the future.

 

LightBearer, The Beast and the False Prophet will be thrown alive into the lake of fire, and his armies will simply be killed. It's true that Satan and all those demonnic forces who follow him will be or have been judged. I don't believe it's clear in Scripture when the AntiChrist and False Prophet have been judged. Based on John 16:11, Satan has already been judged. This may also be true of the Beast and the False Prophet.

[Crunk Bishop]

Scott,

 

If Revelation was written after 70 CE, then why no mention of the destruction of the Jewish Temple by the Romans/Babylon?

 

I like an earlier provenance for Revelation, but I'm influenced by Dr. Thomas B. Slater because he was my teacher and mentor. In the book of Revelation, the Temple is presupposed as existing... leading some critics to push for an earlier date for Revelation which is more contemporary with Nero. Here's Slater's argument. I've got to say I liked the later date until I talked to him about it one day. He convinced me.

 

and another thing... there are actually two "numbers of the Beast" in the Revelation manuscripts... 666 and 616 (from oxyrhynycus). Some scholars think the numbers may represent Caligula instead of Nero. Personally... "crazy Roman Emperor" suffices. I don't think the world is in a place any longer where one person can run the whole show.

 

And where does the United States supposedly fit into this whole prophetic mix?

[Lightbearer]

Thanks for the response Scott. I have another question, since you seem to be well verse in Revelation, where does Babylon fit into the whole deal? I hear about of prophecy enthusiats refering to Babylon as a sign of the end times. Does is specifically mention it in Revelations? I think it would make alot of sense since in Genesis Babylon is where civiliazation sort of started, and if the beast/anti-Christ is giving authority over all the tongues, tribes, and nation -- which were created after the trajedy at Babel -- then Babel aka Babylon is where everyone would be brought together again.

 

 

And Crunk, giving the the way the media opperates now with radio, television and internet it is even easier for someone to rule the whole show if you think about it.

[Crunk Bishop]

light,

 

i just don't see a world where the U.S., England, Russia, the EU and China will agree on anything really. India and Japan gotta get their piece too. Sub-altern countries are already tired of colonialism, so why would they follow some "one-world gov.?"

 

sure, media is out there, but all the superpowers have their separate media things going on. Besides, if the anti-Christ emerges China will just censor it so you can't google him (or her?).

 

i must respectfully disagree.

 

also... "babylon" in Revelation is just a code for "Rome." Apocalyptic books often used codes to disguise their words against "the Man" of the time. I think the significance of the code is that Jews (technically Judahites) were exiled to Babylon between 587-535 BCE and it was generally agreed in the Jewish circles from which Christianity spawned that the exile in Babylon was a bad thing.

 

Sort of like how some groups out there call America "the Great Satan."

[Scott]

Lightbearer, I believe what John the Revelator is trying to get across here in Revelation 17 is that there will be a future world wide religious system. The Bible calls the woman a whore or prostitute because she has commited spiritual adultery by leaving the Faith, and becoming an apostate faith. Bablyon in the Old Testament was a place of unification. So this type of faith will be a unified faith, having dominion over the whole earth, and all those who are not apart of this faith {Christians} will be persecuted. The woman is seen as being drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus {vs.6}, so this evil faith puts many saints and Christians to death. The reasion she is sitting on the Beast is that for a short time she will have authrotity over him . Until, that is, God puts it in the heart of men to destroy the woman {vs. 17}, which will happen just prior to the return of Christ. There alot of opinions on what this prostiture symbolizes. Some think it symbolizes Jerusalem. Others believe it symbolized the Roman Catholic Chruch. I don't believe we should point fingers at who we "think" it may be, but study the Bible so that when it arises, we will be prepared.

[mwc]

I'm going to have to side with Crunk Bishop on this one. Revelation reads much more like a Jewish apocryphal work with an early xian vaneer than an actual xian work. It's supposed to be about Nero but I'd say, with what little I know about Nero, that the author combined Nero and Caligula into one persona since Nero didn't perform many of the attrocities attributed to him (and poor insane Caligula it seems may have been driven mad and/or had extenuating circumstances for his behavior...not an excuse for being the monster he was but an explanation).

 

Anyhow, Babylon is a great parallel so that the people of the day can understand what it is you're trying to say. I think a better example than "the Great Satan" is simply "The Holocaust" and "Hitler." You toss those around and people immediately know what it is you're trying to say. Put them into a colorful story set in WWII or something and you're all set...but wait...you're really describing *today's* events. You're talking about what's going on in Iraq for example but you're in Iraq and don't want to be executed if you're discovered so you cover your tracks with fiction or *prophecy*. It's a little more complicated than this, of course, since you need to use symbols that people of the day can understand, or rather people in the know can understand but my point still stands.

 

The problem is that *we* are outsiders. This text wasn't meant for us. Not simply as non-believers or whatever but we're 2000 years too late and we weren't in their group. We don't know the secret handshake but we have their document and because it has the name "jesus" stuck on it we think it applies somehow and now that it's also in a "sacred" book it's can somehow apply to "us." The truth is that it was written, perhaps as stated in the text, for a certain group of people who knew what the symbols meant. A secret society (another jesus based mystery religion). We can decipher the text to a point but beyond that point we'll never truly know what all the nuance was. It's pretty obvious that they predicted a "future" that came and went however since the further we move from the date of the writing the more "strained" each new interpretation becomes.

 

As for Scott's description of a "one world religion," he thinks in terms of the RCC or the like and very conveniently overlooks something contemporary like the Imperial Cult established by Augustus (where one would worship the Emporer as a deity...a true world religion as the Roman Empire was seen as encompassing the world at that time so look back in time and not forward since this event has already occured).

 

mwc

[trashy]

Preterism was a way-station on my journey from fundamentalist to atheist. It made a lot more sense out of the eschatology than the majority of dispensationalism did. But in the end I looked too hard and long and determined that the New Testament was a long drawn-out response to the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews. Instead of yet another judgement of God it was actually a wonderful plan to redeem all of mankind! Kinda takes the sting out of losing the temple and all.

 

The pattern throughout the Bible is to write the prophecy after the event. They are much more accurate that way. But then you have to also give some sort of *future* prophecy to the reader, and these tend to be much less accurate. But you can buy time by reinterpreting the timeframe a lot.

 

Oh, by the way, in case you were wondering, last week I predicted a plane crash in Kentucky. Just thought I'd document that.

 

Bottom line, no offense, but WHO GIVES A FUCK about Left Behind or antichrist nonsense? Just Christians. For ex-christians to debate on the topic is kinda like kissing your sister............

[Scott]

mwc, read my post again before you put words in my mouth.

[Crunk Bishop]

trashy,

 

i don't think that arguing about the Bible is inappropriate for ex-Christians. Otherwise I wouldn't post in the Lion's Den!

 

you're totally right about prophecy, btw... and I'm hoping Scott might figure that out.

[mwc]

mwc, read my post again before you put words in my mouth.

Are you referring to the following paragraph of mine?

As for Scott's description of a "one world religion," he thinks in terms of the RCC or the like and very conveniently overlooks something contemporary like the Imperial Cult established by Augustus (where one would worship the Emporer as a deity...a true world religion as the Roman Empire was seen as encompassing the world at that time so look back in time and not forward since this event has already occured).

 

Here's your quote:

Others believe it symbolized the Roman Catholic Chruch. I don't believe we should point fingers at who we "think" it may be, but study the Bible so that when it arises, we will be prepared.

And sure enough it looks like I'm putting words in your mouth except my point is to show you're using a futurist view and looking at current organizations as opposed to ancient organizations. I've highlighted the portions of the text that I feel show my intent. That is all.

 

My mistake was saying that you think in terms of the RCC instead of saying that you said others think in terms of the RCC. However, my point remains valid and I think you know that.

 

I do apologize if it looked like I was trying to put words in your mouth as that wasn't my intent.

 

mwc

 

 

Bottom line, no offense, but WHO GIVES A FUCK about Left Behind or antichrist nonsense? Just Christians. For ex-christians to debate on the topic is kinda like kissing your sister............

I actually almost said this instead of my original answer (well, not the kissing your sister part )...but I figured "what the hell?" instead. The whole damn book is a crock so other than repeating that for each answer what else you gonna do?

 

mwc