The Anti-christ.

[Crunk Bishop]

I actually almost said this instead of my original answer (well, not the kissing your sister part )...but I figured "what the hell?" instead. The whole damn book is a crock so other than repeating that for each answer what else you gonna do?

 

mwc

 

 

maybe drop some science on some biznitches?

 

 

i guess i can't help myself.

[Lightbearer]

I bring it up because of the interest in it.

 

I read the Left Behind series beside the last two or three books I think. So the idea intrigued me. The ideas of Revelation appear over and over again in every culture and and all forms of art and media.

 

The mark of the best? Big Brother? NSA wiretapping?

 

The anti-Christ? Superpowerful global organization pulling strings, the conquerer of earth.

 

It's difficult to conceptualize but you see how these ideas keep coming up? That's why I think people are so interested in the Bibical prophecies. One guy on History Channel said that you can take a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in another and they match.

 

Plus, one-world economy would be great and beneficial for the whole world if it was a capitalist economy. I don't like religion but one world religion would prevent everyone from killing each other over it. One language would get rid of all the barriers and problems of language, the curse of the tower of Babel.

 

All these good things Christians oppose because they say it's the evil anti-Christ/Beast.

 

We all know things might be a little better without the Christians

 

So you see why it's intriguing?

[mwc]

maybe drop some science on some biznitches?

 

 

i guess i can't help myself.

It doesn't take too long before you feel like this though --> and you tire of hearing the same things over and over and over. When I first came here I tried being understanding, reasonable and all that. Now I'm a bit short tempered since it's become more than apparent to me that few people come here for a real, honest discussion. Science and history being the least of their concerns when doctrine and rhetoric is much more comforting to them.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I bring it up because of the interest in it.

In my Lutheran church we stayed away from prophecy...which in retrospect I see was a good thing. It was in my Baptist school days where I was exposed to all this stuff (but I still shyed away from it as "taboo").

 

My school was into the whole mapping out the rapture and using Daniel and Revelation and all that stuff. I don't recall but I think they believed in going mid-tribulation or something (3 1/2 weeks in then the rapture, then all hell breaks loose...does this sound right?).

 

I read the Left Behind series beside the last two or three books I think. So the idea intrigued me. The ideas of Revelation appear over and over again in every culture and and all forms of art and media.

 

The mark of the best? Big Brother? NSA wiretapping?

 

The anti-Christ? Superpowerful global organization pulling strings, the conquerer of earth.

 

It's difficult to conceptualize but you see how these ideas keep coming up? That's why I think people are so interested in the Bibical prophecies. One guy on History Channel said that you can take a Bible in one hand and a newspaper in another and they match.

 

Plus, one-world economy would be great and beneficial for the whole world if it was a capitalist economy. I don't like religion but one world religion would prevent everyone from killing each other over it. One language would get rid of all the barriers and problems of language, the curse of the tower of Babel.

All these books came out after I got out of school so I never read them. Once I left the Baptists I went back to the Lutheran, don't mess with prophecy, camp I came from. As I xian I see prophecy in the same group as numerology, astrology and the like. It's sort of a witchcraft. Yes, god would send messages but we're not to play around with it since it just causes us "normal" folks more troubles when we stick our noses in where we don't belong. If we believe jesus then only god knows when it happens. Period. End of story. Cut the book out of the bible and get rid of it since it serves no purpose. That was my view.

 

Of course, I've posted my current view in an earlier message. Of course the book is still causing more trouble than it's worth and should still be done away with. The idea of some supernatural Illuminati has made people look for look for evils and enemies where there are none. When I was in school I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the moment the EU formed that the end times were 7 years away. It was a given. It freaked me out. Well...I'm still waiting. Now the EU is simply the first step in some grand scheme and blah blah blah. The plan just keeps getting more and more convoluted. It's stupid. The Soviet Union was a major part of the plan when I was a kid. Unless they reform it's going to be a major bitch for them to play their role.

 

As you said, you can pick up the paper and the bible and see the parallels. You could when I was young too. Now look at what I wrote above. The Soviet Union. In the papers when I was growing up. The Beast? Babylon? (People speculated their role as they do the roles of the players today.) In the papers. Had a purpose. *Poof* Gone. Now it's someone/something else filling that part. They're now in the paper. They now are "in" the bible. Or are they? They are if you *want* them to be. The great thing about prophecy like this is you just keep filling in the blank with every person or country and if it ever happens (in which case this prophecy never will) you simply say "I told you so" and you win. Tada! It's magic.

 

All these good things Christians oppose because they say it's the evil anti-Christ/Beast.

 

We all know things might be a little better without the Christians

 

So you see why it's intriguing?

I really got caught up in Revelation after I watched the original Omen movies as a kid. They freaked me out and combined with being in the Baptist school I thought there was really something to it. But it's all superstition based on numerology and essentially preterism. Even the little Roman history I know of the time has revealed that.

 

I just see it as extremely damaging more than intriguing because it's the last thread that this religion has to cling to. If it wasn't for Revelation there really wouldn't be anything left. Some vague promises in the gospels and epistles and that's it.

 

Is it any wonder that Revelation was one of, if not he most, hotly contested book to be put into the canon? Not specifically for the prophecy but just the imagery and the overall presentation of the xian god in general? It's really out of place but it bookends Genesis and I think that's all that ultimately mattered. Too bad they didn't go with the number two choice of the Apocolypse of Peter instead.

 

mwc

[Crunk Bishop]

maybe drop some science on some biznitches?

 

 

i guess i can't help myself.

It doesn't take too long before you feel like this though --> and you tire of hearing the same things over and over and over. When I first came here I tried being understanding, reasonable and all that. Now I'm a bit short tempered since it's become more than apparent to me that few people come here for a real, honest discussion. Science and history being the least of their concerns when doctrine and rhetoric is much more comforting to them.

 

mwc

 

 

 

I'll be fine. I actually do this stuff for a living teaching intro religion classes as an adjunct.

 

Besides... the academic intervention of others led me on my first foray into Ex-Christianity ten years ago!

[qadeshet]

Nero was the antichrist and his number was 666. Revelations was talking about the end of an Eon, not the end of the world. Christianity celebrated the end of the age of Aries and the birth of the age of Pisces.

[Abiyoyo]

2 Thessalonians 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

i believe the bible states it will be someone who proclaims to be the messiah and God.

 

Actually, Paul stated that. You know, more and more everyday I wonder about some of the things Paul said. I mean, even Peter said it was hard to hear his words. How did Paul know the details about any AntiChrist anyhow? He didnt even come around until, after Christ died. He was killing Christians before he converted.

 

Doesnt make sense. Jesus, in the Gospels, lays out another story that doesnt follow Pauls tidbits.

[Abiyoyo]

This explains most of the whole woman, dragon, beast, mark of the beast, revelation story.

 

 

 

Rev 17:1-18

 

1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.(KJV)

[duderonomy]

"Plus, one-world economy would be great and beneficial for the whole world if it was a capitalist economy. I don't like religion but one world religion would prevent everyone from killing each other over it. One language would get rid of all the barriers and problems of language, the curse of the tower of Babel."

 

L.B; just my .02...

 

How would a capitalist economy be 'great and beneficial' for the whole world? We in the U.S. have that now, and it's not all that beneficial for those among us who can't compete in it and make their own way. A one world religion would keep people from killing each other over religion, but how? The fundie blows up the abortion clinic of the liberal. They might both be Christians. I won't even mention the protestant vs. catholics thing through the ages. And as for one language, that is exactly what the world had before the Tower of Babel affair (or not, depending on which chapter and verse of the Bible you read), and things still got pretty bloody, what with Noah preaching to everybody for all those years, and all. I assume from the Bible that 'everybody' heard Noah's message, but all but he and his family ignored the warnings. So the problem of the barrier of language wouldn't seem to have much effect on who believes and who doesn't.

 

You see, a literal interpretation of Revelation just isn't all that plausible. Why would God have it written at all, that it should be so confusing that it more than rivals the parables of Jesus in the Gospels about which he said that they were clouded on purpose that 'they' might not understand and be saved. In other words, what's the point then, of those parables, or the book of Revelation? If you take it at face value, than it must be that God wants us readers to not understand, which would seem to imply that the special 'blessing' upon those who read it means that God loves the befuddled.

 

Yet the book was written. Have you considered the teaching that 'Anti' doesn't have to mean 'against', but could also mean 'substitute for' Christ? Is the AntiChrist, then, a blatant enemy of Christ? Maybe this singular person (as some say) is a substitute for Christ Jesus. an Angel of Light, if you will. This is why many in Fundementalist circles say that the Pope, the self proclaimed 'Vicar of Christ' is indeed the Antichrist.

 

Me, I think it's all so much baloney either way. If the God of the Bible wanted to show Himself strong towards those who believe, He would give us all something just a little bit more specific to believe in, and eliminate the conjecture and guesswork and worry and doubt that 'His' 'Word' has provided, He being perfect and all knowing and all.

 

To sum up, I have to say, that as a one time fervent member of the 'Rapture Ready' message board, I now have come to understand that the book of Revelation, at best, is a 'preterest' volume written to the persecuted and scattered Christians of it's day, and it means nothing as a religious text pertaining to the salvation of mankind.

 

I think you feel the same, so again... just my two cents worth.

 

[Lightbearer]

I can't say for sure if revelation is a prediction of the real end of the wolrd or a methaphorical tale of the times it was written.

 

I am just interested on it's effects of the present day. Alot of religions prediction the same thing. You can observe how Islam today is making end times predictions and basing politics off of these predictions. Iran's president is bent on bringing about the Imam Madhi or twelve Imam who is the messiahnic hero of Islam. He openly stated this, and what's strange is how the Christians, observable at Rapture Ready believe the Antichrist is going to be Islam or a Muslims. BUT the Madhi is supposed to fight WITH JESUS against the Antichrist! The two religions are supposed to work together to defeat the Antichrist and afterwards Jesus sets the record straight for Christainity and merges it with Islam to make a sort of new global Islam?

 

Then again the Jews don't have thier messiah yet, and the last reincarnation of Buddha is wondering the world somewhere too.

 

It's just crazy that all these religions are saying the same thing and pointing at each other as evil or delusional or wrong.

 

Everyones seaching for their hero to come defeat their villians for them I suppose.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to say this; it seems that the Antichrist and Messiah concepts are not strictly limited to Christianity at all. Which is why it's so interesting.

[Crunk Bishop]

but people are always looking for someone else to bail them out, no?

 

i think this condition is human and an aspect of every society, hence the cross-cultural myth.