Sylvia Brown

[All Gods Fail]

It's possible Uri Geller was just having an off night and wouldn't have been able to bend even his own metal.

 

Or it's possible Geller is a fake and a cheat, no?

 

 

But this brings to mind something about psychics and mediums and such: why do their powers seem to suck so bad? They never seem to be able to do anything remotely useful or amazing. So what if you can bend spoons or get vague platitudes from the dead? I can do the same shit with no abilities at all.

 

If they could levitate capsules into outer space, or get Einstein's spirit to comment intelligently on string theory, then I'd be impressed.

[Fweethawt]

The fact remains that a few scientists claim to have successfully tested Uri Geller's ability under controlled laboratory conditions at different times.

Yeah, the fact remains...

However, unlike what we had heard about Geller, it was always necessary for him in the experimental situation to have physical contact with the spoon or, for that matter, any other object that he bends. It is not clear whether the spoon was bent because he has extraordinarily strong fingers and good control of micromanipulatory movements or whether, in fact, the spoon "turns to plastic" in his hands, as he claims.

 

Lollipop, lollipop oh lolli lolli lolli!

Lollipop, lollipop oh lolli lolli lolli!

[euphgeek]

It's possible Uri Geller was just having an off night and wouldn't have been able to bend even his own metal.

 

Or it's possible Geller is a fake and a cheat, no?

That's always a possibility, one I never denied.

But this brings to mind something about psychics and mediums and such: why do their powers seem to suck so bad? They never seem to be able to do anything remotely useful or amazing. So what if you can bend spoons or get vague platitudes from the dead? I can do the same shit with no abilities at all.

 

If they could levitate capsules into outer space, or get Einstein's spirit to comment intelligently on string theory, then I'd be impressed.

And that is precisely why you will never get any evidence of paranormal abilities. You set the goalposts too high. To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to be able to do either of those things.

 

The fact remains that a few scientists claim to have successfully tested Uri Geller's ability under controlled laboratory conditions at different times.

Yeah, the fact remains...

However, unlike what we had heard about Geller, it was always necessary for him in the experimental situation to have physical contact with the spoon or, for that matter, any other object that he bends. It is not clear whether the spoon was bent because he has extraordinarily strong fingers and good control of micromanipulatory movements or whether, in fact, the spoon "turns to plastic" in his hands, as he claims.

However, there have been other scientists who claim that he was able to bend things without touching them. My point is that this claim deserves investigation, not instant dismissal just because it's not within the realm of known science or because he wasn't able to perform it in certain instances. Going back to my Doc Severinson analogy, it would be like denying he could hit the double-high C just because he failed to do it that one time, and that all his recordings where he did in fact hit a double-high C were faked.

 

Believe it or not, I am skeptical of Uri Geller's claim. But that doesn't mean I rule out the possibility that he can actually do what he claims.

[All Gods Fail]

And that is precisely why you will never get any evidence of paranormal abilities. You set the goalposts too high. To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to be able to do either of those things.

 

Well, so what? What good is it to bend spoons when you have to be holding them in order to do it? What good is communicating with the dead when they never have anything important to say? What good is being a psychic if you can't tell when and where a terrorist attack is going to happen?

 

So what if there's a chance Uri Geller is for real? He can't do anything amazing, or anything we can't do easier and faster by hand.

 

On the other hand, bending spoons 'with your mind', saying "Grandpa loves you very much and to get on with your life," and vague, open-ended predictions are great ways to con people out of money.

[euphgeek]

And that is precisely why you will never get any evidence of paranormal abilities. You set the goalposts too high. To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to be able to do either of those things.

 

Well, so what? What good is it to bend spoons when you have to be holding them in order to do it? What good is communicating with the dead when they never have anything important to say? What good is being a psychic if you can't tell when and where a terrorist attack is going to happen?

 

So what if there's a chance Uri Geller is for real? He can't do anything amazing, or anything we can't do easier and faster by hand.

 

On the other hand, bending spoons 'with your mind', saying "Grandpa loves you very much and to get on with your life," and vague, open-ended predictions are great ways to con people out of money.

While bending a spoon with one's mind may not be very useful in and of itself, it would warrant further study because scientists could find out more about how the brain works. And I don't know what kind of psychics you've been to, but I've seen a few that were able to do much more than just give vague, open-ended predictions. Some have been able to tell me things about myself that they would have no possible way of knowing. And as far as predicting the future, no legitimate psychic claims to be able to do that. There's too much free will involved. For example, if I told you that you were going to die in a car crash tomorrow, you might decide to take a different route or avoid getting in a car at all and the prediction wouldn't come true. The best a psychic can do is give possible outcomes.

[Vigile]

Ganzfeld and Autoganzfeld:

http://dbem.ws/ganzfeld.html

Gary Schwartz's tests:

http://www.openmindsciences.com

Uri Geller experiment:

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/g5.html

 

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Dem...-ray_sequel.htm

 

http://www.sisyfos.cz/sisyfos/geller.htm

 

That you can't provide any confirming independantly performed replications is telling. You believe because you want to believe. How is this different from those who believe in creationism or other junk science?

[euphgeek]

Ganzfeld and Autoganzfeld:

http://dbem.ws/ganzfeld.html

Gary Schwartz's tests:

http://www.openmindsciences.com

Uri Geller experiment:

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/g5.html

 

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/Dem...-ray_sequel.htm

 

http://www.sisyfos.cz/sisyfos/geller.htm

 

That you can't provide any confirming independantly performed replications is telling. You believe because you want to believe. How is this different from those who believe in creationism or other junk science?

I don't see what your first link has to do with what we're talking about, but I don't "believe because I want to believe." As I said before, I am skeptical of Geller's claim, but that doesn't mean I rule out the possibility that he can actually do as he claims. And if he has performed his ability under controlled conditions like the scientists who tested him claim, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I learn otherwise. Unlike creationists (or atheists in some cases), I am not afraid to say that I may be wrong when compelling new evidence comes to light. And I don't discard scientific experiments just because someone thinks the scientists were all fooled.

 

Also, I've noticed that a lot of atheists discard this sort of thing because they see it as "supernatural". Why is that? What if it's just a perfectly natural way of using our brains that science just hasn't been able to document yet? The brain is a large and complex organ, and we don't know everything there is to know about it. What if these people have a benign tumor somewhere in their brain that puts pressure on just the right part to give them these abilities? Wouldn't that be a fascinating scientific discovery?

[Piprus]

I for one respect Randi for what he's done over the years, particularly his debunking of more than one of those fraudulent televangelists. And his long running battles with Sylvia and Uri has been legendary.

 

Hey, he's just a stage magician and entertainer who made good with his knowledge of how to deceive the mind, work a crowd. and his mastery of parlor tricks. The difference was, the people who paid to see him knew his show was pure sleigt of hand, just entertainment. No fraud. He saw what was going on back in those "new age" years of the Bermuda Triangle, Chariots of the Gods, Bigfoot, alien abductions, and all that other junk, and yelled "Flim-Flam!" even as hordes of the gullible were buying into these so-called "mysteries". And he's done well at it.

[Vigile]

Also, I've noticed that a lot of atheists discard this sort of thing because they see it as "supernatural". Why is that? What if it's just a perfectly natural way of using our brains that science just hasn't been able to document yet? The brain is a large and complex organ, and we don't know everything there is to know about it. What if these people have a benign tumor somewhere in their brain that puts pressure on just the right part to give them these abilities? Wouldn't that be a fascinating scientific discovery?

 

The first link analyzed the Ganzfeld testing, which showed aparent statistical significance. It said that the study had been quickly arranged and that subjects used in the study had obvious traits that projected their issues; just like if a guy with dreadlocks went to a medium and the medium mentions that he likes to smoke pot.

 

And any atheist worth his salt does not reject things with a wave of the hand, they just demand compelling evidence before they accept a finding. There's a big difference. You on the other hand admit that you give those with the claim the benefit of the doubt. This reveals your bias. I for one am perfectly willing to accept any finding that can show statistical significance and that can be replicated objectively. This is not an extremist position I take I don't think, but rather a prudent and rational position. Surely there are many things about the human mind that we don't yet understand and surely we will continue to make new discoveries. So far though, we have no reason to take seriously claims profered by the "paranormal" crowd.

[All Gods Fail]

And that is precisely why you will never get any evidence of paranormal abilities. You set the goalposts too high. To my knowledge, no one has ever claimed to be able to do either of those things.

 

Well, so what? What good is it to bend spoons when you have to be holding them in order to do it? What good is communicating with the dead when they never have anything important to say? What good is being a psychic if you can't tell when and where a terrorist attack is going to happen?

 

So what if there's a chance Uri Geller is for real? He can't do anything amazing, or anything we can't do easier and faster by hand.

 

On the other hand, bending spoons 'with your mind', saying "Grandpa loves you very much and to get on with your life," and vague, open-ended predictions are great ways to con people out of money.

While bending a spoon with one's mind may not be very useful in and of itself, it would warrant further study because scientists could find out more about how the brain works. And I don't know what kind of psychics you've been to, but I've seen a few that were able to do much more than just give vague, open-ended predictions. Some have been able to tell me things about myself that they would have no possible way of knowing. And as far as predicting the future, no legitimate psychic claims to be able to do that. There's too much free will involved. For example, if I told you that you were going to die in a car crash tomorrow, you might decide to take a different route or avoid getting in a car at all and the prediction wouldn't come true. The best a psychic can do is give possible outcomes.

 

I think you're missing my point - what I'm trying to say is that if psychic powers were real, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would have government funded institutions training psychics to find terrorists, communicate with the dead for valuable information, and why wouldn't NASA want to be able to levitate spacecraft into orbit with much less danger and expense? Police departments wouldn't need detectives anymore - psychics would be able to solve murders, missing persons cases, find fugitives etc.

 

Psychics/mediums/etc. never seem to be able to demonstrate any powers that can't be reproduced by trickery or educated guessing. In other words, if their powers were real, and humans did have these amazing abilities, we'd be living in a very different world.

 

Plus, we wouldn't wonder what happens after we die - we'd know. Dead relatives could give us the whole story.

[xrayman7040]

Once a for all on the spoon bending thing: IT IS A FUCKING MAGIC TRICK !!!! End of story. Uri Geller was proven to be a fraud period. One lesser known fact about Houdini is the fact that he too, like James Randi proved many of supposed psycics and mystics to be frauds. His great knowledge of illusion was a great weapon agaisnt swindlers earlier in this century. James Randi is just a straight shooter who wants nothing more for someone once and for all to prove some sort of supernatural ability.

 

 

 

Syvia was on Larry King Live earlier this year along with a few lesser known psycics. I love Larry because he does ask all the questions I would ask to fundementalists Christains, as well as psycics. Larry asked the panel why not one of them could have predicted something so huge as the 9-11 attack. Those fuckers dodge the question with the same finess that a fundi would when asked how a loving God could allow this to happen. First and foremost the great ability all supposed psycics do have is the abiltiy to think quick on their feet and spew the bullshit in a hurry.

[euphgeek]

And any atheist worth his salt does not reject things with a wave of the hand, they just demand compelling evidence before they accept a finding. There's a big difference. You on the other hand admit that you give those with the claim the benefit of the doubt. This reveals your bias.

Wrong. Read what I said again. I said IF he has performed his ability under controlled conditions like the scientists who tested him claim, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I learn otherwise.

I for one am perfectly willing to accept any finding that can show statistical significance and that can be replicated objectively. This is not an extremist position I take I don't think, but rather a prudent and rational position. Surely there are many things about the human mind that we don't yet understand and surely we will continue to make new discoveries. So far though, we have no reason to take seriously claims profered by the "paranormal" crowd.

While I disagree with your last sentence, I agree that your position is prudent and rational, as long as you don't treat these claims any differently than you would any other claim of a new discovery.

 

I think you're missing my point - what I'm trying to say is that if psychic powers were real, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would have government funded institutions training psychics to find terrorists, communicate with the dead for valuable information, and why wouldn't NASA want to be able to levitate spacecraft into orbit with much less danger and expense? Police departments wouldn't need detectives anymore - psychics would be able to solve murders, missing persons cases, find fugitives etc.

Sometimes psychics do help solve crimes and find missing persons. Law enforcement is generally reluctant to call on them because 1) society generally sees these abilities as either fraudulent or evil and any reliance on them would be seen as a weakness in the police force, no matter how successful they were, and 2) there are a lot of frauds out there who would take advantage of it and actually hinder the investigation by sending them on false leads.

Psychics/mediums/etc. never seem to be able to demonstrate any powers that can't be reproduced by trickery or educated guessing. In other words, if their powers were real, and humans did have these amazing abilities, we'd be living in a very different world.

My personal experience is that the abilities have actually been demonstrated to my satisfaction. I went to a medium in a city that I was new to, who had never seen me before, and she told me details about my past that no one would be able to tell just through cold reading techniques (and I was careful not to give her any clues). And many other people have had the same experiences with other mediums. Of course I don't automatically believe everyone who claims psychic powers, but I will allow them to demonstrate before I make up my mind.

Plus, we wouldn't wonder what happens after we die - we'd know. Dead relatives could give us the whole story.

Only if you're tuned in to the ability. Some people have an ability for art and music, but just because not everyone has that ability doesn't mean that the ones who do are frauds. Perhaps it just comes easier to some people than others.

[AtheistMommy]

Even though I don't believe in Bible God and all that stuff I'm still into the afterlife, angels, spirits, and psychics.

 

Anyway, I am a huge fan of Sylvia Brown; I was even when I was a X-tian. Now, I am starting to realize something peculiar about her.

 

Even though she says that god is impartial and that no one is going to rot in hell and etc...I notice that she always invokes the name of The Holy Spirit, Christ Consciousness, AND in one of her books she talks about Jesus being Lord...But later, in the same book, she contradicts herself and states that all great religious figures(Buddha, Jesus, Ghandi, and Dali Lama)are all avatars of god...

 

Sometimes I think she's forreal, but I keep wondering is she pushing a Christian agenda...Most psychics don't point to certain religions...

 

This is a woman who charges $700. to come and hear her bullshit, I wouldn't trust her if you paid me. She's obviously out to make a buck. What do you think about her son being a psychic also? She's a total phony.

 

What makes you think people can predict the future?

[Lizard]

 

What makes you think people can predict the future?

I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days..

 

There ARE those who predict the future. Not by looking into a crystal ball or deck of cards, but through logic.

 

Consider weathermen..they will predict all the time, based on information at hand. Market analysts do the same.

 

Sometimes, they are right on, other times, not. We don't consider them magical or mystical, we understand, to a degree how they do what they do.

 

When a seeming psychic makes a prediction of the future that comes true, and it does happen..we want to automatically say "well, it must be either a fraud or mystical/magical".

 

I propose another choice. There are people whose minds work in a different fashion-they are able to see the end based on the current events. Much like a savant who can rattle off a string of prime numbers faster than a computer. We don't think he is magical..we know something is wired differently in his brain.

 

As to Sylvia Brown and her outrageous charges for a "reading"..that's an obvious one there. If she were for real, she could charge less, teach others how to do it and make plenty of money. Much like these big events/concerts/amusement parks. We used to visit Six Flags Fiesta Texas regularly. However, we brought our own refreshments, kept tucked in an ice chest in the car...because who really wants to pay $3 for a 12 oz cup of watery soda? They could have done so much more business charging a reasonable price.

 

Just my thoughts..

[AtheistMommy]

 

What makes you think people can predict the future?

I've been thinking about this over the last couple of days..

 

There ARE those who predict the future. Not by looking into a crystal ball or deck of cards, but through logic.

 

Consider weathermen..they will predict all the time, based on information at hand. Market analysts do the same.

 

Sometimes, they are right on, other times, not. We don't consider them magical or mystical, we understand, to a degree how they do what they do.

 

When a seeming psychic makes a prediction of the future that comes true, and it does happen..we want to automatically say "well, it must be either a fraud or mystical/magical".

 

I propose another choice. There are people whose minds work in a different fashion-they are able to see the end based on the current events. Much like a savant who can rattle off a string of prime numbers faster than a computer. We don't think he is magical..we know something is wired differently in his brain.

 

As to Sylvia Brown and her outrageous charges for a "reading"..that's an obvious one there. If she were for real, she could charge less, teach others how to do it and make plenty of money. Much like these big events/concerts/amusement parks. We used to visit Six Flags Fiesta Texas regularly. However, we brought our own refreshments, kept tucked in an ice chest in the car...because who really wants to pay $3 for a 12 oz cup of watery soda? They could have done so much more business charging a reasonable price.

 

Just my thoughts..

 

Predicting the weather is so very different from telling someone what their dead loved one is doing or saying. It's different from telling someone what happened to their dead loved one and it's much different from telling someone how to solve the murder of a dead loved one.

 

Where exactly is the evidence for their accusations? I understand the weather man because he has an ampal amount of evidence. However, the context is much different also.

 

This isn't a matter of logical common sense. This is a matter of telling people what they want to hear. Taking something that could apply to anyone and selling it to them.

 

The human brain is not able to predict or look into the past in this way. I find it less hard to believe that someone could move things with their brain than predict a past or future of another person. Why? Because our brains give off and are made up of energy. If one could channel this energy, there is a good chance we could move things with it.

[Lizard]

AM, I feel like you just tripped me through the Twilight Zone.

 

You responded to things I didn't even bring up. I nowhere said anything about talking to someone's dead relative or moving objects???

 

I spoke to predicting the future..the outcome of a series of events. Oddsmakers do it all the time too..as in betting on games.

 

If I see a car speeding down the freeway, weaving in and out of traffic and proclaim "that guy's going to have an accident"..its not mystical or magical or psychic when he crashes..its a logical conclusion based on information I currently have-that of his driving. Now, if he stops driving that way, probability is lowered and he most likely won't crash..

 

Others can do the same, by analyzing data available..

[Vigile]

I actually like what you are saying Lizard. It's an interesting spin. Weatherpersons and Market Analysts (which I try to be) interpret the data and rely on probabilities. They can never "know" what the future holds, but they can reasonably measure the odds. Perhaps there are data that can be weighed in relation to other events as well. I'm not feeling imaginitive enough at this moment to think of an example of what they might be, but it's an interesting concept to roll around in my mind.

[AtheistMommy]

AM, I feel like you just tripped me through the Twilight Zone.

 

You responded to things I didn't even bring up. I nowhere said anything about talking to someone's dead relative or moving objects???

 

I spoke to predicting the future..the outcome of a series of events. Oddsmakers do it all the time too..as in betting on games.

 

If I see a car speeding down the freeway, weaving in and out of traffic and proclaim "that guy's going to have an accident"..its not mystical or magical or psychic when he crashes..its a logical conclusion based on information I currently have-that of his driving. Now, if he stops driving that way, probability is lowered and he most likely won't crash..

 

Others can do the same, by analyzing data available..

 

LOL! Well thats because I agree that people can take observations and come out with what they think will happen next based on those observations. People do that all the time and infact are taught to do so at school. I believe that's actually part of mathmatics (which object comes next).

 

However, I don't think it's quite the same as what a psychic predicting the future. My example was their constant reference to "dead loved ones." And my othe reference was just on the human mind and what is may be able to do.

 

If a psychic is going to make a prediction of a dead loved one, they first need some kind of data to help form that opinion, right?

[Lizard]

 

 

If a psychic is going to make a prediction of a dead loved one, they first need some kind of data to help form that opinion, right?

Yes, you would think..unless they were really observant. You can often tell what kind of parents or family one had by observing the person. Even with nonverbal clues..body language.

 

Funny..I just woke up from a nap and decided I had enough of XM radio, so flipped the channel..to A & E..title of the show is "Psychic Children"..I've seen it before, and take it with a grain of salt. Everything looks real on TV..I mean, I'm convinced I can walk through a vertical ring of water and be on another planet in seconds..

 

I am not convinced by the likes of Sylvia Brown and co. I do think some things are unexplainable at this time..but there is so much we don't know about how our brains and senses work that there could be a way "seeing" that we don't understand. Time will tell..

[AtheistMommy]

Yes, you would think..unless they were really observant. You can often tell what kind of parents or family one had by observing the person. Even with nonverbal clues..body language.

 

I am not convinced by the likes of Sylvia Brown and co. I do think some things are unexplainable at this time..but there is so much we don't know about how our brains and senses work that there could be a way "seeing" that we don't understand. Time will tell..

 

I agree. We do that without thinking. We use body language along with some other things like the way a person is dressed and form an opinion of that person without having talked to them and gotten to know them. It's a human thing, I think. Nothing magical about it.

 

However, wouldn't the body language be a form of some kind of data?

[euphgeek]

Lizard, while we may not see eye to eye on everything (although I do agree with a lot of what you say) I certainly respect the logic you use. My whole point to this discussion is that believing that there is the possibility that some people have tapped into their psychic powers is not only the domain of "credulous woowoos" but a rational, logical position to hold. In my opinion, the irrational and illogical positions say either that anyone who claims psychic powers is automatically a fraud or that everyone who claims psychic powers must be telling the truth.

[Lizard]

Yes, Euphgeek..I keep an open mind to all of it. I find charging such prices a bit suspect though.

 

To definitively state something as true or not true..seems like what we did as xtians..accepting on the word of others that reality was what was proclaimed.

 

So much is being learned on a daily/yearly basis that what we now call "paranormal" may actually BE normal. Consider the gene that was just discovered-that makes us different from other primates. Perhaps another form of evolution will take place or is taking place?

 

I believe anything is possible, but not all things are probable.

 

As to premonitions..and I'm going out on limb here..I'm sure we've all had those dreams that seemingly "come true". I had one last December..(I always dream and remember them-last night I dreamed that the tattoo I just got started fading away until it was gone..I actually checked when I woke up ) Anyway, back to the December dream:

I dreamed I was arranging milk cartons at work (school lunch milk). Only, they were yellow. We didn't have yellow cartons. Blew that off as a distorted work dream...until I got to work and saw a memo about vanilla milk, coming in January. Yep..the cartons were yellow.

 

However..it really served no purpose. I mean seriously, what good did it do for me to know the cartons were yellow? It did make for interesting conversation though..

[xrayman7040]

I recently dreampt I was having sex with a really hot blonde I work with who happens to be six months pregnant. What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[AtheistMommy]

I recently dreampt I was having sex with a really hot blonde I work with who happens to be six months pregnant. What the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

It means one of two things, either you desire a baby and a "hot blonde" or you're one sick bastard.

 

 

 

I believe anything is possible, but not all things are probable.

 

As to premonitions..and I'm going out on limb here..I'm sure we've all had those dreams that seemingly "come true". I had one last December..(I always dream and remember them-last night I dreamed that the tattoo I just got started fading away until it was gone..I actually checked when I woke up ) Anyway, back to the December dream:

I dreamed I was arranging milk cartons at work (school lunch milk). Only, they were yellow. We didn't have yellow cartons. Blew that off as a distorted work dream...until I got to work and saw a memo about vanilla milk, coming in January. Yep..the cartons were yellow.

 

However..it really served no purpose. I mean seriously, what good did it do for me to know the cartons were yellow? It did make for interesting conversation though..

 

Its possible, just highly improbable. Evidence goes against someone being able to predict such things.

 

I had two different dreams about two different people dead. About two weeks later they died. I could be a psychic! No seriously, I did have these dreams. But do you think they were totally without data?

[Asimov]

AM, I just can't get over how disgusting your avatar is. Everything you say is rendered irrelevant because of that filth.