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Fundy Trying To Pass Off Proof Of God


Lunar Shadow
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Well on another board I go to from time to time a fundy was touting this as unequivocal evidence for the existance of god so here is your chance Lions of the Lion's Den rip it apart :grin:

 

 

Proof of God (suposedly)

 

 

I found many problems as far as twisting meanings of words and complete ignorance of terms in science and logic

 

 

So here you all are GO NUTS!

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What utter crap! Who is that supposed to convince??? Most of the thing is set up as a false dichotomy.

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What's pissing me off about this (along with the actual content being completely pointless and not based on anything solid) is that when you exit it takes you to Disney.com. Wtf?

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Absolute Moral Laws Do Not Exist?

http://proofthatgodexists.org/no-morality.php

If you truly believed that there was no such thing as absolute morality then there would be no 'right' or 'wrong,' just things that you or your society happen not to like.

(Actually me and my society wouldn’t agree on morals. Also my view of morals change on the situation)

 

Rape and child molestation would not be wrong, they would just become man made objections. The question then becomes: 'If man is the measure of all things - which man? - which society?

(It’s subjective. No one man or one society decides.)

 

If someone with enough power happened to like rape and molestation, what right would we have to impose our morality on him?

(I don’t have any right to ‘impose’ my morals on him, just as he has not right to impose his morals on me. It's just that my moral obligation to protect my loved ones conflicts with his desire to rape or molest. Since they can't co-exist action is taken.)

 

What would be wrong with the person, or society, with the power imposing their morality on you?
(There is nothing wrong with it. They have a right to try)
Why do we condemn the Nazi society for following their self-imposed morals? Why did the Nazi society not have the right to break from the tradition of morality in western civilizations?
(Not everyone condemns it. They aren’t universally seen as evil)

 

There is no question that societies have different interpretations of morality but if you examine the following sentence you will see the illogic of thinking that societies determine morality. "The majority of the people in our society participated in that evil deed." If morality was up to society, that sentence would never make sense
(the sentence wouldn’t make sense if whether or not morality is up to society),
but we know that morality is beyond societies

(no)

and such a propositon is possible. (No it’s not. If they think the act is moral, they wouldn’t call it evil)

You have denied that absolute moral laws exist but you appeal to them all the time
(No my morals evolve).
You say that rape IS wrong because you know that it IS wrong and not just against your personal preference
(but to a rapist it isn’t wrong. So it isn’t universal but subjective)
Unless you reconsider your stand on this matter, your road to this site's proof that God exists ends here. It is my prayer that you come to understand how inconsistent and irrational this line of thinking is and return to seek the truth.
(your 'proof' wasn't good enough for me to even think of reconsidering God existance)

 

 

What's pissing me off about this (along with the actual content being completely pointless and not based on anything solid) is that when you exit it takes you to Disney.com. Wtf?

If you agree with him you get to the real site. :Doh:

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Now I got the fuck tard who made this site trying to take me on on how logical and scientific the existance of gawd is.... I have invited him to come join in the discussion but he oh so convienent reply was "I am up to my eyeballs in atheistic forums so thanks but no thanks" LOL well fuck ass if you are gonna put your neck out then you better be ready to reap the consequences.

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yup same screen name

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Guest Big Mac
Denying the existence of God is not unbelief but an exercise in self-deception. You may know things, but you cannot account for anything you know. Arguing against God's existence would be on par with arguing against the existence of air, breathing it all the while. You use the universal, immaterial, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality in order to come to rational decisions, but you cannot account for them. These laws are not the only way God has revealed himself to you, but they are sufficient to show the irrationality of your thinking, and expose your guilt for denying Him.

 

If one recalls 1984, Winston proposes that 2+2 could equal 5 if the Party was able to force everyone to believe it. Morality comes from the fact that some acts are a detriment to society. Raping people or molesting children is wrong not because God said so but because it harms people physically and emotionally. That in turn creates more problems for a community. It's wrong because objectively it does not benefit anyone and harms everyone, including the rapist (you have to be pretty messed up to rape someone but I'm sure it doesn't help your mind anymore to carry out the act).

 

Please examine the real reason why you are running from God. It is my prayer that God will open your eyes and change your heart so that you may be saved from your sin, embraced by His forgiving love, and come to know the peace which passes all understanding.

 

Please examine the real reason you are are running from the Easter Bunny, Santa, etc. Asshole bitch dickhead.

 

G.Z.: I am a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Christian, a Muslim.

 

 

Response: Then you don't understand any of them because they ALL claim exclusivity. You can say that there are many ways to God, but this is not what the Christian worldview claims. Indeed there are many ways to fictitious Gods but only one way to the one true God of Christianity. Truth is not arbitrary. If something is true, the contrary necessarily has to be false.

 

Actually Buddhism is considered a philosophy more so than a religion. Buddhism also sees other religions as other paths to the truth, so it would not claim exclusivity. I sample its beliefs because it is not dogmatic or rigid. This guy is a prick, and he seems to talk tough when he gets e-mails he can take all damn day to respond.

 

AA: The standard of morality is what I expect from people of great power, i.e. with great power comes great responsibility. Response: Where do you get your standard of morality from - Spiderman?

 

And where did he get his from.....Bronze Age sheep fuckers who rape the women of their enemies? Yeah I think Spider-man is definitely crazy as a source of morality. What with it being written in a much more recent time and presenting situations that are realistic in morality. Sometimes you have to work with scum to get the end result or do things that may be considered immoral to do the right thing. Life presents such problems. Sure none of us wear such gay looking tights and spandex and fight evil doers like Dr. Doom or Carnage, but we all make tough decisions.

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I sent him an email and he sent me this

What I said......

((((((((>If absolute moral truth exist that means that it is ALWAYS wrong to do something considered "immoral". Your a christian so you believe that lying is immoral and is<BR>therefore absolute. So I shouldn't be able to think of one example of where lying is the correct moral choice. But I can easily like if I had to save a life. You believe that "though shalt not kill or murder" then you should think of no examples where murdering or killing is the right moral choice. If you think torture is immoral then you should think of NO example where torture is the correct moral choice.))))))

 

What you said......

(((((The problem is that you are confusing 'right'

with 'justifiable.' It is God who determines whether breaking His

absolute moral commands is justifiable or not. Not you, not

me)))))))

 

I just responded with this

So by what you just said, it's okay to do something that would normally be considered immoral like "thou shalt not kill" when God determines it justifiable. If it is justifiable it is not always wrong. Therefore it is not a universally (or always) wrong. Hence, Absolute morals do not exist.

 

He tries to hide behind immoral acts such as rape, molestation which most people wouldn't dare defend. He won't try to defend acts that are immoral sometimes and morals sometimes like lying, killing, torture etc. He also fails because he has God, who can do any immoral act he wants but it is still justifiable. Since when god does immoral acts it suddenly becomes moral, then morals can't be universally wrong.

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I would also like to note his use of word play. He is asking if "Absolute moral truth exist". This can mean a few things

 

1. Absolute moral truth - a set of values that define what is moral and immoral

 

or

 

2. Absolute moral truth - one act, like rape, that is considered by many, always immoral

 

So my by admitting the second definition, in his mind you admit the first. He also asks "Are the absolute morals?". If you say no, then he traps you by saying "Is that absolutely true?". The problem is that the first statement doesn't match the second. The first is asking if morals are absolute. The second is asking if statements are absolute. On first glance it can be confusing but in the end his logic is horrible.

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I sent him an email and he sent me this

What I said......

((((((((>If absolute moral truth exist that means that it is ALWAYS wrong to do something considered "immoral". Your a christian so you believe that lying is immoral and is<BR>therefore absolute. So I shouldn't be able to think of one example of where lying is the correct moral choice. But I can easily like if I had to save a life. You believe that "though shalt not kill or murder" then you should think of no examples where murdering or killing is the right moral choice. If you think torture is immoral then you should think of NO example where torture is the correct moral choice.))))))

 

What you said......

(((((The problem is that you are confusing 'right'

with 'justifiable.' It is God who determines whether breaking His

absolute moral commands is justifiable or not. Not you, not

me)))))))

 

I just responded with this

So by what you just said, it's okay to do something that would normally be considered immoral like "thou shalt not kill" when God determines it justifiable. If it is justifiable it is not always wrong. Therefore it is not a universally (or always) wrong. Hence, Absolute morals do not exist.

 

Then I responded with this:

 

 

First of all, I never said that God would consider breaking His absolute moral commands justifiable. I merely stated that it is up to God to make that determination. Personally I would not want to face Him with the unforgiven sin of breakig one of His absolute moral commands. I personally think that in God's eyes it would NEVER be justifiable. By the way, the best translation for that commandment is "Thou shalt not murder.

 

Secondly, Christians who repent of their sin are forgiven, and covered by the righteousness of Christ when they face God.

 

Rather than continue to look for 'outs,' I would repent of my sins if I were you.

 

Cheers,

 

Sye

 

Anyhow, I am engaged in a few other debates on different forums. I will not likely have time to check this one too often. One thing is certain, I will not respond to those who stoop to the desperation of blasphemy or name calling.

 

Cheers,

 

Sye

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First of all thanks for showing up. I'm glad you did since debating on email is horrible and my email sux.

Then I responded with this:

First of all, I never said that God would consider breaking His absolute moral commands justifiable. I merely stated that it is up to God to make that determination. Personally I would not want to face Him with the unforgiven sin of breakig one of His absolute moral commands. I personally think that in God's eyes it would NEVER be justifiable. By the way, the best translation for that commandment is "Thou shalt not murder.

The line between murder and killing is small. God kills people all the time. If when god kills it is not wrong, but when we kill it is immoral then morality is not absolute because it is right sometimes and wrong others

 

Secondly, Christians who repent of their sin are forgiven, and covered by the righteousness of Christ when they face God.

 

Rather than continue to look for 'outs,' I would repent of my sins if I were you.

Don't try to put me on guilt trips by saying I need to repent of my sins. There is no sin except for the one that the person believe is so.

 

Cheers,

 

Sye

 

Anyhow, I am engaged in a few other debates on different forums. I will not likely have time to check this one too often. One thing is certain, I will not respond to those who stoop to the desperation of blasphemy or name calling.

 

Cheers,

 

Sye

What name calling? What blasphemy? I only stated that god does the acts that you consider absolutely immoral.
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What name calling? What blasphemy? I only stated that god does the acts that you consider absolutely immoral.

I think he is refering to me calling him a fuck tard

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Personally I would not want to face Him with the unforgiven sin of breakig one of His absolute moral commands.
Then for your sake you had better hope that you never, ever, ever ate a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich; wore a polyester and cotton shirt; or planted carrots and lettuce in the same garden patch. Because those are all violations of "da law."
One thing is certain, I will not respond to those who stoop to the desperation of blasphemy or name calling.
"Blasphemy" is a matter of religious opinion, not desperation.

 

And you won't last long here if you tell *us* to repent and then run away when we respond with justifiable outrage at your hubris.

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Guest michaelrosenweig

OK, Lunar Shadow. I may believe in God or may not. That is irrelevant. Do you really think it is cool to be intolerant of people who believe in God if they tolerate you?

 

And as a matter of fact, I think it takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to believe in the existence of a god or gods.

 

for all you scientists out there: What caused the photons, protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust, and gravity fields to form? Does anyone have an answer for me? Email me privately, and I have other pretty good points of interest for you.

 

Watch out for the JDL if you know what's good for you. and have a nice day, intolerant bigots

 

Very Truly Yours,

 

Michael Rosenweig

 

 

 

 

Well on another board I go to from time to time a fundy was touting this as unequivocal evidence for the existance of god so here is your chance Lions of the Lion's Den rip it apart :grin:

 

 

Proof of God (suposedly)

 

 

I found many problems as far as twisting meanings of words and complete ignorance of terms in science and logic

 

 

So here you all are GO NUTS!

 

 

 

 

http://www.rumdesign.com/wrong/ here is a nice one for you, if you dare to type out the URL

 

 

Well on another board I go to from time to time a fundy was touting this as unequivocal evidence for the existance of god so here is your chance Lions of the Lion's Den rip it apart :grin:

 

 

Proof of God (suposedly)

 

 

I found many problems as far as twisting meanings of words and complete ignorance of terms in science and logic

 

 

So here you all are GO NUTS!

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OK, Lunar Shadow. I may believe in gods or may not. That is irrelevant. Do you really think it is cool to be intolerant of people who believe in the gods if they tolerate you?

if they are worthy of your tolerance

 

And as a matter of fact, I think it takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to believe in the existence of a god or gods.
No

 

for all you scientists out there: What caused the photons, protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust, and gravity fields to form? Does anyone have an answer for me? Email me privately, and I have other pretty good points of interest for you.
they were always there

 

Watch out for the JDL if you know what's good for you. and have a nice day, intolerant bigots
And you want us to tolerate you?
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OK, Lunar Shadow. I may believe in God or may not. That is irrelevant. Do you really think it is cool to be intolerant of people who believe in God if they tolerate you?

Actually I am rather tolerant of people who have a belief in god it is when they try to push it upon other perople is when it is time to call so called proof they offer in to question. I interact with many theist in my day to day life its not like I go about picking fights. Of course you wouldn't know that would you?

 

And as a matter of fact, I think it takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to believe in the existence of a god or gods.

 

That is the oldest song and dace theists offer up.... it all comes down to the # of assupmtions that take place.....

 

Atheism really only make one assumption (there is no god) and it makes a logical progression form there

 

Christianity on the other hand makes many assumptions and each assumtion takes more faith than the last.

 

keep your misconceptions to yourself instead of wasting my time with trype that has been spewed over and over agian on this board. Hundreds have come before you and fallen by the wayside just as you probabliy will.

 

 

 

http://www.rumdesign.com/wrong/ here is a nice one for you, if you dare to type out the URL

 

 

 

 

I think we oficially have another spoofer

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for all you scientists out there: What caused the photons, protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust, and gravity fields to form? Does anyone have an answer for me? Email me privately, and I have other pretty good points of interest for you.

 

Hey idiot, I don't know the answer to your question! But guess what! I don't make up shitty fake answers like you retards do! (besides, I'm no scientist, so I'm sure someone knows, and even if not, someone will eventually)

 

Now idiot, tell me what caused your god?

If protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust and gravity fields NEED to have "come from something", then so does the evil demon you worship.

What's that? No he doesn't? Oops. You either play by the rules or you don't play, fuck tard. If your god doesn't require a creator, there's no reason all the other stuff requires one too.

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What caused the photons, protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust, and gravity fields to form?

 

I highly recommend Physics for Dummies if you really don't know.

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^^ LOL

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OK, Lunar Shadow. I may believe in God or may not. That is irrelevant. Do you really think it is cool to be intolerant of people who believe in God if they tolerate you?

That's just the problem, dear sir. They don't fucking tolerate us. They show up here and try to reconvert us to their gory little death cult, rather than accepting that we left and don't want to go back. They resort to cheap emotional ploys, try to shift the burden of proof to us, plead "If only you knew what I know" and then run away crying when we don't buy it.

 

Prove that your god actually exists, using peer-reviewed science, and I guarantee that most of us will listen. Oh, and you'll probably win the Nobel Prize too.

 

Come stomping in here with a bunch of Babble verses, and we will eat you alive and piss on the leftovers. Because we feel no obligation whatsoever to be civil to people who have already dismissed us as "sinners." We are not turn-the-other-cheek types here.

 

If you are incapable of comprehending *why* we are EX-Christians, perhaps you should look elsewhere for dialogue.

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Now this thread has a potential to become very entertaining...if the apologists don't wuss out. :scratch:

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^^ The problem is they will and always do.... I finished up my debate with one of them already because Mr. logic and science (Canuckfish) has out right said that evolution is niether observable or possible it is some cult of darwin some big conspiracy to bring down god.

 

 

so much for logic and science

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OK, Lunar Shadow. I may believe in God or may not. That is irrelevant. Do you really think it is cool to be intolerant of people who believe in God if they tolerate you?

 

Yes.

 

And as a matter of fact, I think it takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to believe in the existence of a god or gods.

 

Well, you really have your head up your ass on that one, dontcha?

for all you scientists out there: What caused the photons, protons, electrons, energy particles, cosmic dust, and gravity fields to form? Does anyone have an answer for me? Email me privately, and I have other pretty good points of interest for you.

 

Fundamental forces of nature and the laws of physics along with the Big Bang.

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