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Question For The Prairie Muffins


roknrolr
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But if you still want to criticize and call me insane, that's ok too.

I just call em as I see em.

 

or pretending that I'm important

You are, you just dont realize it. By being a christian you believe yourself to be more important than those who dont believe. You believe your superior because you do what sky god says, because you believe what is written in a book that gives you a right to shove what you believe down others necks.

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Praying for His will to be done has nothing to do with Him needing my help, but me needing His grace for acceptance of His will. And it's just the form of communication where I get to know Him.

Your are a gracious Christian.

 

If God were real, his will could be considered something on the order of the whims of a Mafia Don. That's why a person needs grace to endure it.

 

Like anyone else, I have a lot of deep stuff happening in my life. For instance, I have an incurable disease that causes me a lot of pain. But I don't see the point in blaming God for that. He gives me the hope that gets me through. I realize this is the kind of statement I will be roasted for, but it is the truth.

 

If God were real, you ought to blame him for it, because he is responsible for all of it. Consider this paraphrase of James by Rev. Pederson

 

James 2: 14What good is it, my brothers, if a God claims to have faithfulness but has no deeds? Can such faithfulness recommend him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If your God says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, claims of faithfulness by themselves, if they are not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

Faith is not really debatable; you either have it or you don't. I won't criticize you for not having it, and I hope you won't criticize me because I do.

 

Faith is quite debatable. I debated it with God himself for a number of years before I realized I was talking to the ether. Should one continue to turn away from reality in favor of fairy tales? I doubt if doing that is even moral, though it is human enough.

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'faith is not really debatable; you either have it or you don't.

 

Actually....we debate faith a lot. Faith gets more credit and respect than it rightly deserves I think. What is faith after all? To believe and trust that something is true or real without verification or evidence. To people of religion, that sounds very warm and fuzzy. Kind of like closing your eyes and falling backwards into the arms of the person behind you. So what is wrong with it?

 

Well, the Trust Game example I just gave...was the one that was used on me when I was a young churchling....to teach me what "faith" was.

 

What they did NOT tell me, was that the Trust Game worked on principals of HUMAN social "rules" and social justice. No one was going to just stand there and let the person in front of them fall backwards onto the floor because no one wanted the CONSEQUENCES of authority and peer disapproval. So...all the Trust Game really teaches is a certain faith in people in general (not counting those with severe behavioral disorders or criminal intent...that's really another subject).

 

A supreme being is outside of all of this. So the Trust Game does not apply. People have tried playing the Trust Game with their various versions of god and as you can probably guess...the results vary widely enough to be indistiguishable from pure chance. Since there is no evidence showing that Allah-god is more loving and benevolent than Jesus-god, or Yahweh-god. The evidence for existence is the same for all three. Either they are all equally real, or NONE are real at all....or they really don't care a whit for human affairs at all, in which case they may as well not exist.

 

Saying you have faith is to say you believe something is true without any evidence. Because if you had evidence, it wouldn't be faith anymore. It would be provable knowledge. That's not faith.

 

Yet faith is put on a pedestal that it has done absolutely nothing to earn in human society. Knowledge earns it's existence through evidence, but it doesn't get quite the same silent appreciation as faith. Faith really is lazy, and knowledge is unappreciated by comparison.

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or pretending that I'm important

You are, you just dont realize it. By being a christian you believe yourself to be more important than those who dont believe. You believe your superior because you do what sky god says, because you believe what is written in a book that gives you a right to shove what you believe down others necks.

 

But see, I don't believe the way you've just described. I don't believe I'm superior in anyway, and I often don't do as God says --I am a fallible human. I do believe what is written in the Bible, but I don't remember any passage where it says I have the right to shove anything down your throats. If you feel that my presence here is doing that, I'll remove myself immediately.

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Your are a gracious Christian.

 

If God were real, his will could be considered something on the order of the whims of a Mafia Don. That's why a person needs grace to endure it..

 

This is not my view of God, so I find His grace amazing.

 

If God were real, you ought to blame him for it, because he is responsible for all of it. Consider this paraphrase of James by Rev. Pederson

 

James 2: 14What good is it, my brothers, if a God claims to have faithfulness but has no deeds? Can such faithfulness recommend him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If your God says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, claims of faithfulness by themselves, if they are not accompanied by action, is dead.

 

I don't believe He is responsible for my illness. And I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with a Rev. Pederson, or this perversion of James 2:14-17.

 

Faith is quite debatable. I debated it with God himself for a number of years before I realized I was talking to the ether. Should one continue to turn away from reality in favor of fairy tales? I doubt if doing that is even moral, though it is human enough.

 

I don't consider it a fairy tale.

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'faith is not really debatable; you either have it or you don't.

 

Actually....we debate faith a lot. Faith gets more credit and respect than it rightly deserves I think. What is faith after all? To believe and trust that something is true or real without verification or evidence. To people of religion, that sounds very warm and fuzzy. Kind of like closing your eyes and falling backwards into the arms of the person behind you. So what is wrong with it?

 

Well, the Trust Game example I just gave...was the one that was used on me when I was a young churchling....to teach me what "faith" was.

 

What they did NOT tell me, was that the Trust Game worked on principals of HUMAN social "rules" and social justice. No one was going to just stand there and let the person in front of them fall backwards onto the floor because no one wanted the CONSEQUENCES of authority and peer disapproval. So...all the Trust Game really teaches is a certain faith in people in general (not counting those with severe behavioral disorders or criminal intent...that's really another subject).

 

A supreme being is outside of all of this. So the Trust Game does not apply. People have tried playing the Trust Game with their various versions of god and as you can probably guess...the results vary widely enough to be indistiguishable from pure chance. Since there is no evidence showing that Allah-god is more loving and benevolent than Jesus-god, or Yahweh-god. The evidence for existence is the same for all three. Either they are all equally real, or NONE are real at all....or they really don't care a whit for human affairs at all, in which case they may as well not exist.

 

Saying you have faith is to say you believe something is true without any evidence. Because if you had evidence, it wouldn't be faith anymore. It would be provable knowledge. That's not faith.

 

Yet faith is put on a pedestal that it has done absolutely nothing to earn in human society. Knowledge earns it's existence through evidence, but it doesn't get quite the same silent appreciation as faith. Faith really is lazy, and knowledge is unappreciated by comparison.

 

I hate those stupid trust games too. They don't prove a thing.

 

But I don't believe that faith is a crutch, or that I have to check my brains at the door in order to exercise it. I could put down a lot of passages here about faith from Hebrews, but again, I'm not here to preach; so I'm thinking that it may be about time for me to go. Not because I have nothing to respond with, but because if I do, it would have to be largely with scripture, and I don't want to break my word to you.

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I could put down a lot of passages here about faith from Hebrews, but again, I'm not here to preach; so I'm thinking that it may be about time for me to go. Not because I have nothing to respond with, but because if I do, it would have to be largely with scripture, and I don't want to break my word to you.

 

Interesting "problem" to have...don't you think? In order to respond....you have to use quotes from a book, INSTEAD of your own intelligence. You aren't even using the book in a limited capacity as "supporting" evidence, it's your absolute proof, period.

 

Think about that for a second. What if I were to say the only way I'd be able to have a dialogue with you would be if I pulled most of my conversational material directly from "White Fang" by Jack London. Wouldn't you find that a bit odd? I certainly do. :twitch:

 

Now obviously I wouldn't do anything so silly. As good a novel as "White Fang" is, one thing we both agree on, it's not a tome to base your life on.

 

Where we will not agree is on a different book. You see, we aren't going to agree on the bible as a source for moral value, and we definitely aren't going to agree that a higher power was involved in writing the thing either. So when you quote it to us....you really may as well be quoting White Fang. :shrug:

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you really may as well be quoting White Fang.

Or nothing.

 

But see, I don't believe the way you've just described. I don't believe I'm superior in anyway,

A christian with no superiority complex? Heh, why do I not believe that?

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Interesting "problem" to have...don't you think? In order to respond....you have to use quotes from a book, INSTEAD of your own intelligence. You aren't even using the book in a limited capacity as "supporting" evidence, it's your absolute proof, period...

 

Where we will not agree is on a different book. You see, we aren't going to agree on the bible as a source for moral value, and we definitely aren't going to agree that a higher power was involved in writing the thing either. So when you quote it to us....you really may as well be quoting White Fang. :shrug:

 

I didn't say that I wouldn't be able to use my own intelligence, but that I would refer extensively to scripture. Yes, I realize we differ in our view of the Bible. I view it as the words of God, and you don't. And I realize the fact that I view it that way makes me appear intellectually weak to you, and perhaps you feel that you are intellectually superior to me because of this?

 

I actually don't have a problem if you believe that about me. But it does seem curious that it is spoken of as a bad thing when someone assumes that I believe I am superior to them (which I don't), but yet it may be acceptable for those who choose not to believe in God to believe themselves to be intellectually superior to me?

 

Again, not a problem. But our clear differing views on the Bible are the reason I said it may be time to go. Like I said, I'm not here to convert anyone, and I really don't want to offend.

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I view it as the words of God, and you don't. And I realize the fact that I view it that way makes me appear intellectually weak to you, and perhaps you feel that you are intellectually superior to me because of this?

 

I didn't say it made you intellectually weak. You are putting words in my mouth. I said your "reference" source was limited. Big difference.

 

It's quite possible I'm intellectually superior to you. But not only because you think the intangible wrote a book, or used others to write a book. You are attaching a broad accusation on one intellectual difference between us. Quite the sweeping statement, and probably one you may have expected a knee-jerk denial of because it's more socially acceptable. Notice...I'm not doing that. I very well may be your intellectual superior. Personally, I don't know enough about you to be able to absolutely confirm or deny that idea.

 

I actually don't have a problem if you believe that about me. But it does seem curious that it is spoken of as a bad thing when someone assumes that I believe I am superior to them (which I don't), but yet it may be acceptable for those who choose not to believe in God to believe themselves to be intellectually superior to me?

 

You are talking superior, and you are talking intellectually superior within the same paragraph. One is general, one is more specific, and you are treating them as equal. It would be difficult to respond to this without that response likely being misconstrued one way or the other.

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I view it as the words of God, and you don't. And I realize the fact that I view it that way makes me appear intellectually weak to you, and perhaps you feel that you are intellectually superior to me because of this?

 

I didn't say it made you intellectually weak. You are putting words in my mouth. I said your "reference" source was limited. Big difference.

 

It's quite possible I'm intellectually superior to you. But not only because you think the intangible wrote a book, or used others to write a book. You are attaching a broad accusation on one intellectual difference between us. Quite the sweeping statement, and probably one you may have expected a knee-jerk denial of because it's more socially acceptable. Notice...I'm not doing that. I very well may be your intellectual superior. Personally, I don't know enough about you to be able to absolutely confirm or deny that idea.

 

Oh man, and I try to write things so carefully... That should have read: "And I realize the fact that I view it that way may make me appear intellectually weak to you..." I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. It meant it all as a question. So maybe you is smarter than me. :HaHa:

 

I actually don't have a problem if you believe that about me. But it does seem curious that it is spoken of as a bad thing when someone assumes that I believe I am superior to them (which I don't), but yet it may be acceptable for those who choose not to believe in God to believe themselves to be intellectually superior to me?

 

You are talking superior, and you are talking intellectually superior within the same paragraph. One is general, one is more specific, and you are treating them as equal. It would be difficult to respond to this without that response likely being misconstrued one way or the other.

 

I guess it's confirmed!! You are intellectually superior. But I still maintain that I don't consider myself to be superior to anyone. (meaning in the superiority complex way)

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... For instance, I have an incurable disease that causes me a lot of pain. But I don't see the point in blaming God for that. He gives me the hope that gets me through. ...

 

I, too, have a disease that causes me a lot of pain (MS). Even though I had already done enough research and studying by the time I came down with it to realize that christianity is just man-made like all organized religions and that there probably is not such a thing as a god, getting this diagnosis was the last straw that killed whatever belief I was trying to hold on to. If there is a god anything like the horrible described in the bible, it can go fuck itself as far as I'm concerned.

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... For instance, I have an incurable disease that causes me a lot of pain. But I don't see the point in blaming God for that. He gives me the hope that gets me through. ...

 

I, too, have a disease that causes me a lot of pain (MS). Even though I had already done enough research and studying by the time I came down with it to realize that christianity is just man-made like all organized religions and that there probably is not such a thing as a god, getting this diagnosis was the last straw that killed whatever belief I was trying to hold on to. If there is a god anything like the horrible described in the bible, it can go fuck itself as far as I'm concerned.

 

I am so sorry about your MS. I've heard that one is especially difficult to go through. I understand feeling like cursing God; Job's wife did it in the Bible. She got a really bad rap amongst Christians for doing so. But I always felt compassion for her when I read that.

 

I know you all most likely know all this, but as the story goes, Job lost his children, property, and his health. Then his wife says "Curse God and die!" Christians have a tendency to say how bad she is because she said that. But as bad as what Job was dealing with, wasn't it just as bad for her? They were her children too, and her husband was off on a pile of debris somewhere not being her husband. Who knows if maybe she was sick too? She was at the very least stressed and grieving.

 

Anyway, all I'm saying is that I understand, and I'm sorry that you go through the pain of your disease. I know it can be taxing.

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I actually don't have a problem if you believe that about me. But it does seem curious that it is spoken of as a bad thing when someone assumes that I believe I am superior to them (which I don't), but yet it may be acceptable for those who choose not to believe in God to believe themselves to be intellectually superior to me?

 

You are talking superior, and you are talking intellectually superior within the same paragraph. One is general, one is more specific, and you are treating them as equal. It would be difficult to respond to this without that response likely being misconstrued one way or the other.

 

Really, I don't believe I was treating them as equal, but merely comparing the acceptability of the outcomes. It would definitely be wrong for me to consider myself to be superior to anyone in the sense that it was spoken earlier, which I'm guessing was in regard to being morally superior. I do not believe myself to be in any way morally superior to anyone else. If this was not the intended meaning of "superiority complex", someone please let me know.

 

However, in regard to who is intellectually superior, I'm not really sure why that would even matter. But I also don't think the fact that I believe a certain book is true and you don't should negate my intellectual capabilities.

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Your are a gracious Christian.

 

If God were real, his will could be considered something on the order of the whims of a Mafia Don. That's why a person needs grace to endure it..

 

This is not my view of God, so I find His grace amazing.

:Doh: Of Course. Me too: "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " This grace is indeed amazing. I colored this grace red because if God is Jesus, then tender Jesus meek and mild commanded it.

 

WWJD? Well one thing is killing babies whose ever so great grandparents pissed him off for defending their land from invaders.

 

It takes a lot of "faith" to fade that into the background of love.

 

I don't believe He is responsible for my illness. And I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with a Rev. Pederson, or this perversion of James 2:14-17.

Well you just haven't gotten to know me yet. I am Rev. Pederson. The Church never got around to revoking my ordination. Isn't that amusing?

 

1. God is responsible for everything, or else he is not omni everything. There is no getting around it. What ever ails you had to have been created by him, because there is no other creator. Plus, since he is the only one with the power to heal you (medicine has failed), he is responsible for your pain in the same way you would be responsible for the pain of someone you had the power to aid.

 

2. For, you see, God ought to be at least as moral as God requires us to be. This is the reason for my paraphrase of James. Just like a human, a god that doesn't help in the time of need while being empowered to help, is not being faithful. By Jesus "word" A human who fails this minor moral test is bound for hell. Yet God fails the test of his own devising continuously, as your own case demonstrates. Therefore, God is condemned out of his own mouth. (Matthew 25:31-46)

 

3. Now if you have read this, you will feel the need to demonstrate the usual co-dependent behavior, "Even though daddy/husband/boyfriend/boo beats me bloody, he is good, and I am bad. I must try to be good enough not to be beaten." I hope you at least would not let your husband or a son get away with this sort of nonsense. However, you are willing to take the same nonsense from your God, if it is indeed real. This is Prairie Muffin thinking.

 

I don't consider it a fairy tale.

Many Muslims don't believe the Koran to be a fairy tale either. Does that mean its not a fairy tale?

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I had a rather lengthy response to all this, but in truth, does anyone see the point in me putting it here?

 

Take care everyone!

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That sounds like a surrender to me.

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... I know you all most likely know all this, but as the story goes, Job lost his children, property, and his health. Then his wife says "Curse God and die!" Christians have a tendency to say how bad she is because she said that. But as bad as what Job was dealing with, wasn't it just as bad for her? They were her children too, and her husband was off on a pile of debris somewhere not being her husband. Who knows if maybe she was sick too? She was at the very least stressed and grieving....

 

Sort of ironic that someone trying to keep up the pretense of bible god being loving and good would even bring up the Book of Job, which portrays god as being a cruel and capricious entity that would torture its most faithful follower and kill innocent servants and children just to win a wager with its old buddy/alter ego satan. But, I suppose someone who sees such rubbish as Truth™ doesn't think too deeply.

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I had a rather lengthy response to all this, but in truth, does anyone see the point in me putting it here?

 

Take care everyone!

 

*sigh*

 

Ah well.....

 

 

Another one bites the dust

Another one bites the dust

And another one gone, and another one gone

Another one bites the dust

Hey, Im gonna get you too

Another one bites the dust

:jesus::woohoo::beer:

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You know....every time a new christian member pulls a "Copperfield" (or a "David Blaine" for you young'ins), I can't help but think of how mentally awesome Open_Minded is.

 

Seriously. She kicks so much ass. Her religion isn't so wrapped around the inside of her skull that the increase in blood flow caused by thinking doesn't give her an adrenal "fight or flight" reaction.

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You know....every time a new christian member pulls a "Copperfield" (or a "David Blaine" for you young'ins), I can't help but think of how mentally awesome Open_Minded is.

I agree. We need a tally of how amny asses she has kicked so far me thinks! :grin:

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You know....every time a new christian member pulls a "Copperfield" (or a "David Blaine" for you young'ins), I can't help but think of how mentally awesome Open_Minded is.

 

Seriously. She kicks so much ass. Her religion isn't so wrapped around the inside of her skull that the increase in blood flow caused by thinking doesn't give her an adrenal "fight or flight" reaction.

I agree. We need a tally of how amny asses she has kicked so far me thinks!

 

:funny: Wow ... my ears were burning and so I checked this thread and found these last two posts....

 

Wow .... Go away for Thanksgiving and come back to this.....

 

Thanks everyone - really - thanks..... :HappyCry::wub:

 

______________________________

 

I've been trying to stay out of this thread as the whole concept of "Prairie Muffins" drives me to violence. :wicked:

 

Seriously - though - there are women in my own life who live as this manifesto suggests they live. As many of you know - I first came to this site seeking advice about two young teen girl friends of my own teen daughter. These two were getting caught up in literalism and fundamentalist Christianity. I was very concerned about them and seeking advice from those who had lived with fundamentalism.

 

One of my concerns then (and now) is that these girls have such low self-esteem from their home-lives. One girl's parents are drunks and the other girl's parents care too much about making a good income that they are never home for their daughter. As a result the girls are very vulnerable and they want their world to be safe. So when some nut job (youth pastor) comes along and convinces them he is their connection to "god", then I have real concerns.

 

The problem with teaching young girls that they should be "prairie muffins" is that you are teaching young girls that they shouldn't think for themselves.

 

Earlier in this thread JoyThruChrist asked...

 

One more little thing. I am curious as to why this concept angers you so much. The prairie muffin chooses to be a prairie muffin, and is not trying to make you be a prairie muffin. The prairie muffin does not feel like she is living a "horrifying backwards view of womanhood", so where is the tolerance for her chosen lifestyle?

 

See the thing is that yes the fundies are trying to make me and every other woman on this planet a prairie muffin. They may not say that - but their whole purpose in life is to evangelize people for Christ, is it not? :shrug:

 

Good grief - when they are evangelizing women for Christ - teaching women (especially young and vulnerable girls) that the way to Christ is through their husbands, pastors, fathers, whatever is exactly what they are doing. They are trying to make women prairie muffins. And I do have a problem with that. I have a big problem with teaching any human being that they are not capable of thinking for themselves, or that they are not capable of taking responsibility for their lives.

 

One of my daughter's young friends told me a year (or so) ago that she couldn't make any major decisions in her life without consulting her youth pastor first. I have been consistently concerned about the influence of this man on this girl. I worry that there is sexual molestation going on. And I can not do anything to protect her. She has since ended her relationship with my daughter and other girls at school because they are not TRUE Christians. She ended her relationship with these girls at the urging of her youth pastor. He is doing a fantastic job of isolating her.

 

That is why I've stayed out of this thread. This whole topic just sends me over the edge.

 

I don't go knocking on other people's doors trying to recruit them to my lifestyle - and yet every few months or so I get a knock on my own door from the local prairie muffins trying to recruit me and my family to their lifestyle.

 

Bullshit ... "The prairie muffin chooses to be a prairie muffin, and is not trying to make you be a prairie muffin. "

 

When I moved to this community 16 years ago - the woman across the street seemed very nice. We were friendly for awhile. One day she felt the urge to sit in MY living room and try to convince me to become a submissive wife. When I talked to her about common parenting issues with my then very active 3 year-old son, she tried to convince me that submitting to my husband and leaving all the disciplinary issues up to him was the answer. And she made it very clear that it was my husband's duty to spank our very active 3 year-old boy into submission.

 

That conversation changed our relationship forever. She is basically a nice person and I would still talk to her. But, she is not my friend and I never - ever allow myself to get into a private conversation with her. Because she will use the opportunity to try and convince me to be the kind of wife and mother that she is. I can't and even if I could - I wouldn't.

 

I have seen the real life results of prairie muffin living. I've seen the impact it has on the children of prairie muffins and I have seen the impact it has on young vulnerable teen girls.

 

They can keep their prairie muffin manifesto - And if we run into each other on life's daily journey I promise I won't try and recruit them away from their lifestyle. But, I'll guarentee you that they will try and recruit me away from my life style - and if they had their way they'd try to impliment their lifestyle into our overall culture.

 

They would make birth-control illegal. They would try to legislate their "morality" throughout our whole culture.

 

No... prairie muffins may sound cute and serene - but they are very dangerous indeed.

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But, I suppose someone who sees such rubbish as Truth™ doesn't think too deeply.

 

So because I hold a different view than you means I automatically don't think too deeply? Interesting assumption from someone I've never met...

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Another one bites the dust...

 

 

Um, no, actually, another one shakes the dust off her feet...

I already stated that I wasn't here to "evangelize" anyway. I know you have your minds made up, and that's your decision. I was merely answering a question asked of Christians.

 

So if there are obnoxious Christians here trying to force you to believe, really, what's the point in my being here? Because they are here, you're going to think I'm just like them. You *seem* to lump us all together as evangelistic intellectual morons.

 

If we were going to have interesting discussions, and I felt that people were going to treat me with any civility, I would stay. But because I see that I'm a laughing stock just because I believe in God, and I decide to leave, that makes me weak?

 

Why does it raise your ire about women staying in abusive relationships --which I don't think is a wise thing either, BTW-- but when I decide to remove myself because I see that I'm going to get jumped on for my beliefs, I'm not a deep thinker? :scratch:

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But, I suppose someone who sees such rubbish as Truth™ doesn't think too deeply.

 

So because I hold a different view than you means I automatically don't think too deeply? Interesting assumption from someone I've never met...

 

No need to get your knickers in a knot, honey bunch; you're not going to get your daily dose of martydom from me. I don't think you're not a deep thinker because we hold different views.

 

I think you're not a deep thinker because (1) your views are seemingly based on subjective emotion rather than rational evidence, (2) you made an EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE comment suggesting that morality comes from bible god, implying that you are better than all those awful people who hold a different view than you, and (3) you claim bible god is loving and good and yet you cited - with absolutely no sense of irony - the Book of Job, one of the books that shows god at its absolute worse.

 

Oh, well, go dust off your feet. I can't say we'll miss you.

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