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Why was Adam comdemned?


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The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

 

Why was Adam comdemned for eating from this tree? Because God told him not to. But how was he supposed to know he shouldn't disobey God when he had no knowledge of good and evil? As far as he knew, he was just following the advice of the woman, the special helper that God had given him. :blink:

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Also, if Adam had no concept of good and evil, how was he to understand the difference between death and life? From "the other side," the side of death, is there a dfference?

 

Why was the woman such an independent thinker? Why was she so persuasive or convincing to the point that along with the serpent, her words carried more weight than God's? Was she designed to be deceptive, a conspirator of trickery?

 

It could also be argued that Adam played the gullible fool.

 

Alas, my brain fails me in making sense of some myths.

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Guest Son of Belial

I already know the answer to this, but I'd like a Christian to explain where both God and the Devil were during all of this. The Devil is never mentioned - just "the serpent." Did the Devil possess a serpent, or just transform into one, or what? If it was the Devil and not a serpent, why were serpents punished(they now crawl on their bellies because of Satan's sin). Also, do serpents eat dust? Does Satan eat dust and crawl on his belly? And again, where was God? Sitting back watching? I like when God shows up and goes "Adam, where are you?" What a prankster.

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The serpent mentioned was not interpreted as the Devil until Christianity.

 

Also, you'll notice that Adam was not technically condemned by Yahweh. The earth was cursed because of him.

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And as if a piece of fruit could weld all that power. :Doh:

 

I watched a History channel documentary the other day about Angels....the historian on there was saying that God actually created another woman first BEFORE Eve. Her name was Lilleth.

According to the historian, Genesis says that God created man and woman at the same time (which is Adam and Lilly) then...Eve was created FROM the rib of Adam as we commonly know.

Now i personally never noticed anything in Genesis that would have led me to believe there was someone before Eve created.

But anyway, supposably, Lilleth was quite evil and did not like Adam telling her what to do. She reportedly told him "why do YOU boss me around...God created us equally..you are not MY God"

Well, Lilleth was cast out and then was supposably jealous of Eve and was in cahoots with the snake in the garden.

 

I was like huh???? :lmao::lmao:

 

Lisa

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actually Panther that is a very well established part of genesis doctrine in Judaism, Lilleth is seen as allagory for matriarcy, and an invention of the men-only jewish priests. Her name is very popular amoung Jewish femanists, who see her as a role model. There's even rumours of a third wife, but we'll leave it there.

 

Lilleth wasn't evil, just dominative, and adam was such a pussy that she always got "to be on top" (seriously) when she was expelled she mated with the demons, Djinn, whatever and created a pandora's box of troubles for mankind, just like the greek image of woman, eve was one aspect of the patriarcal view Lilleth another, the rest of the bible gives us similer lectures on them.

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According to the historian, Genesis says that God created man and woman at the same time (which is Adam and Lilly) then...Eve was created FROM the rib of Adam as we commonly know.

If you will check Genesis, you will find that God created man two times. The first time he created plants, animals and then man and woman (not giving them names) the second time he created man and the plants and animals and afterward putting Adam to sleep (see he named him the second time) and making Eve out of his rib! All this proves is that when the post-exilic priests wrote the OT (in the 6th century BCE), they somehow copied two different similar creation stories from other and older Semitic religions and the editor didn't catch it! Now, my question (assuming Genesis were actually true) is, who was the first man and woman and what happened to them? Did they survive the "Flood"? :eek:

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actually Panther that is a very well established part of genesis doctrine in Judaism, Lilleth is seen as allagory for matriarcy, and an invention of the men-only jewish priests. Her name is very popular amoung Jewish femanists, who see her as a role model. There's even rumours of a third wife, but we'll leave it there.

 

Lilleth wasn't evil, just dominative, and adam was such a pussy that she always got "to be on top" (seriously) when she was expelled she mated with the demons, Djinn, whatever and created a pandora's box of troubles for mankind, just like the greek image of woman, eve was one aspect of the patriarcal view Lilleth another, the rest of the bible gives us similer lectures on them.

 

 

Hmm!! Interesting as I didn't know that! :grin:

 

Lisa

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If you will check Genesis, you will find that God created man two times.  The first time he created plants, animals and then man and woman (not giving them names) the second time he created man and the plants and animals and afterward putting Adam to sleep (see he named him the second time) and making Eve out of his rib!  All this proves is that when the post-exilic priests wrote the OT (in the 6th century BCE), they somehow copied two different similar creation stories from other and older Semitic religions and the editor didn't catch it!  Now, my question (assuming Genesis were actually true) is, who was the first man and woman and what happened to them?  Did they survive the "Flood"? :eek:

 

 

hmmm! Also very interesting as I didn't realize that either! And good question!

It seems they just disppeared. :bluegrab:

 

LOL, love these smiley's. :)

 

Also, love your avatar! :woohoo:

 

Lisa

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LOL, love these smiley's. 

 

Also, love your avatar! 

Thanks, in olden times (when this website was new), I was known for my excessive (but effective) use of the smileys in my postings against the Christ Cultists. Then Dave (Praised Be His Name) in his infinite wisdow put a "flood control" on smileys where you could only use 5 per posting. The avatar - I have had it since nearly the first and I also use it (thanks to quicksand) on Unexplained-Mysteries website too (under a different name) - Heimdall :wicked:

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Also, if Adam had no concept of good and evil, how was he to understand the difference between death and life? From "the other side," the side of death, is there a dfference?

 

Why was the woman such an independent thinker? Why was she so persuasive or convincing to the point that along with the serpent, her words carried more weight than God's? Was she designed to be deceptive, a conspirator of trickery?

 

It could also be argued that Adam played the gullible fool.

 

Alas, my brain fails me in making sense of some myths.

 

Where is the wrongdoing by EITHER Adam, Eve, OR the serpent? Niether Adam or Eve knew what evil was at that time. God obviously made the tree to bear fruit, and it was all pronounced good, and He placed it right in the center. God obviously made the serpent, made/allowed him to live there with Adam and Eve. The serpent was telling the truth, that when they eat of the tree they will NOT die that day, as God had said, but shall know the difference between good and evil. That sounds noble and worthwhile. Shouldn't a prudent person WANT to know what is right and what is not?

 

After they ate, whose version of the consequences turned out to be correct?

- God? Did they die that day? No, not physically, which IS what the scripture plainly says (Adam lived a very long time afterwards), and not spiritually (Christians maintain the spirit/soul lives on after physical death).

- The serpent? Well, they did not die, just as the serpent said. And they did now know the difference between good and evil, just as the serpent said.

So the serpent was right, God was wrong, humans pay the price, life's a bitch.

 

The most responsible party for that mess was the one who created the tree and placed it right in the middle of the garden (Gen 2:9), lied about it, then placed with them a creature that knew the truth and wasn't afraid to communicate it to Adam or Eve. Just to prove His awesome power, He then placed guards by the Tree of Life so they couldn't eat from it and live forever. How was Adam supposed to know that 4000 years into the future God would morph (evolve?) into one that would decide the new penalty was eternal torture? Why didn't God have the foreskin to put a guard on the Tree of Knowledge?? Not much goodness, wisdom or foresight for a God.

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Where are all the Christians? Are you lurking? Because I'd really like to hear your views on this... :blink:

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Just some info on Lilith.

 

Lilth

 

The follow text is quoted from:

Hebrew Myths by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai (New York: Doubleday, 1964), pp 65-69.

 

Chapter 10: Adam's Helpmeets

 

(a) Having decided to give Adam a helpmeet lest he should be alone of his kind, God put him into a deep sleep, removed one of his ribs, formed it into a woman, and closed up the wound, Adam awoke and said: 'This being shall be named "Woman", because she has been taken out o f man. A man and a woman shall be one flesh.' The title he gave her was Eve, 'the Mother of All Living''. 1

 

( B) Some say that God created man and woman in His own image on the Sixth Day, giving them charge over the world; 2  but that Eve did not yet exist. Now, God had set Adam to name every beast, bird and other living thing. When they passed before him in pairs, male and female, Adam-being already like a twenty-year-old man-felt jealous of their loves, and though he tried coupling with each female in turn, found no satisfaction in the act. He therefore cried: 'Every creature but I has a proper matel', and prayed God would remedy this injustice. 3

 

© God then formed Lilith, the first woman, just as He had formed Adam, except that He used filth and sediment instead of pure dust. From Adam's union with this demoness, and with another like her named Naamah, Tubal Cain's sister, sprang Asmodeus and innumerable demons that still plague mankind. Many generations later, Lilith and Naamah came to Solomon's judgement seat, disguised as harlots of Jerusalem'. 4

 

(d) Adam and Lilith never found peace together; for when he wished to lie with her, she took offence at the recumbent posture he demanded. 'Why must I lie beneath you?' she asked. 'I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal.' Because Adam tried to compel her obedience by force, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magic name of God, rose into the air and left him.

 

Adam complained to God: 'I have been deserted by my helpmeet' God at once sent the angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangelof to fetch Lilith back. They found her beside the Red Sea, a region abounding in lascivious demons, to whom she bore lilim at the rate of more than one hundred a day. 'Return to Adam without delay,' the angels said, `or we will drown you!' Lilith asked: `How can I return to Adam and live like an honest housewife, after my stay beside the Red Sea?? 'It will be death to refuse!' they answered. `How can I die,' Lilith asked again, `when God has ordered me to take charge of all newborn children: boys up to the eighth day of life, that of circumcision; girls up to the twentieth day. None the less, if ever I see your three names or likenesses displayed in an amulet above a newborn child, I promise to spare it.' To this they agreed; but God punished Lilith by making one hundred of her demon children perish daily; 5 and if she could not destroy a human infant, because of the angelic amulet, she would spitefully turn against her own. 6

 

(e) Some say that Lilith ruled as queen in Zmargad, and again in Sheba; and was the demoness who destroyed job's sons. 7 Yet she escaped the curse of death which overtook Adam, since they had parted long before the Fall. Lilith and Naamah not only strangle infants but also seduce dreaming men, any one of whom, sleeping alone, may become their victim. 8

 

(f) Undismayed by His failure to give Adam a suitable helpmeet, God tried again, and let him watch while he built up a woman's anatomy: using bones, tissues, muscles, blood and glandular secretions, then covering the whole with skin and adding tufts of hair in places. The sight caused Adam such disgust that even when this woman, the First Eve, stood there in her full beauty, he felt an invincible repugnance. God knew that He had failed once more, and took the First Eve away. Where she went, nobody knows for certain. 9

 

(g) God tried a third time, and acted more circumspectly. Having taken a rib from Adam's side in his sleep, He formed it into a woman; then plaited her hair and adorned her, like a bride, with twenty-four pieces of jewellery, before waking him. Adam was entranced. 10

 

(h) Some say that God created Eve not from Adam's rib, but from a tail ending in a sting which had been part of his body. God cut this off, and the stump-now a useless coccyx-is still carried by Adam's descendants. 11

 

(i) Others say that God's original thought had been to create two human beings, male and female; but instead He designed a single one with a male face looking forward, and a female face looking back. Again He changed His mind, removed Adam's backward-looking face, and built a woman's body for it. 12

 

(j) Still others hold that Adam was originally created as an androgyne of male and female bodies joined back to back. Since this posture made locomotion difficult, and conversation awkward, God divided the androgyne and gave each half a new rear. These separate beings He placed in Eden, forbidding them to couple. 13

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Where are all the Christians? Are you lurking? Because I'd really like to hear your views on this...

 

I have asked myself that question several times since I started posting on this forum. There does not seem to be very many Christians (although I have seen a few) who are posting here.

 

A lot has been said here so I will start by answering the first question:

 

I already know the answer to this, but I'd like a Christian to explain where both God and the Devil were during all of this. The Devil is never mentioned - just "the serpent." Did the Devil possess a serpent, or just transform into one, or what? If it was the Devil and not a serpent, why were serpents punished(they now crawl on their bellies because of Satan's sin). Also, do serpents eat dust? Does Satan eat dust and crawl on his belly? And again, where was God? Sitting back watching? I like when God shows up and goes "Adam, where are you?" What a prankster.

 

God was where he always is during this time, and that is on the throne (as well as everywhere staying true to orthodox christianity becuase of his omniprescence). The devil was inhabiting the body of the serpent. Christians have longed maintained that the devil does not have the power to "make" his own physical body. The serpent was an animal (one Eve seemed to be familiar with), therefore, it was not Satans creation (the serpent was not attributed to be Satan untill the NT, but since I believe the Bibe is the Word of God I believe the NT was accurate in this pronouncement). So Satan must have indewelled this serpents body (The NT and OT seem to be very clear that Satan can indwell created physical bodies).

 

- The serpent? Well, they did not die, just as the serpent said. And they did now know the difference between good and evil, just as the serpent said.

 

Christians maintained that Adam and Eve did die (but not of Eves partaking, rather it was Adams partaking) but they did not die physically (obviously) they died spiritually, but not in the sense that the spirit ceased to be something that would not live on for the rest of eternity, rather spiritual death meant that they were separated from God, and for the generations to come, haters of God.

 

If you will check Genesis, you will find that God created man two times. The first time he created plants, animals and then man and woman (not giving them names) the second time he created man and the plants and animals and afterward putting Adam to sleep (see he named him the second time) and making Eve out of his rib! All this proves is that when the post-exilic priests wrote the OT (in the 6th century BCE), they somehow copied two different similar creation stories from other and older Semitic religions and the editor didn't catch it! Now, my question (assuming Genesis were actually true) is, who was the first man and woman and what happened to them? Did they survive the "Flood"?

 

I realize you did not say that God named them, but I want to clarify that God did not name them and actually the writer just stopped using the definite article as is explained below.

Actually in the original Hebrew no one directly named them. Adam is the transliteration of the hebrew word for man, and Eve is the transliteration for the Hebrew word woman. they were called adam (or man) and Eve (or woman) throughout the whole account. The only reason that the translators (of the English Bibles) switch from calling them man and woman to Adam and Eve is because at a certain point in the Hebrew text writer starts to leave off the definite "heh" article. So in the Hebrew the writer goes from using the term "ha-adam" (the three a's having more of an aw sound) so probably more properly sounded out "haw-awdawm." Any way the writer went from "ha-adam" (the man) and "ha-eve" (the woman and in Hebrew sounds more like "Eshawh") to using "adam" (or, a man) and "eve" (or a woman) which in the context seems to be indicating that the two words are now used as proper names rather then designations. However, all this to say that God never says "and your name is Adam" or anything like that and neither do the writers.

 

Where is the wrongdoing by EITHER Adam, Eve, OR the serpent? Niether Adam or Eve knew what evil was at that time. God obviously made the tree to bear fruit, and it was all pronounced good, and He placed it right in the center. God obviously made the serpent, made/allowed him to live there with Adam and Eve. The serpent was telling the truth, that when they eat of the tree they will NOT die that day, as God had said, but shall know the difference between good and evil. That sounds noble and worthwhile. Shouldn't a prudent person WANT to know what is right and what is not?

 

I think this quote kind of sums up the rest of the objections here. I agree this account does not make sense apart from a reformed perspective (see the thread I agree, it sums up everything, and if I post the concept here it will just turn into an identical thread). It is interesting to see that in Adams explenation he traces the events back to God i.e according to Adam God gave the tree and the woman, and God never corrects this.

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A lot has been said here so I will start by answering the first question:

God was where he always is during this time, and that is on the throne <snip>.

 

That's where Elvis died!

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I should probably give an account about the Adam not knowing good and evil, so how could he know that eating the fruit was wrong. God did tell Adam not to eat of it, so there is an assumed knowledge of Adam (assumed by the writer) that he (adam) should not eat of the fruit. So what does it mean when it says that they Knew good and evil after eating the fruit?

 

Again, I think looking at the original language helps. The word for know in the Hebrew account is "Yawdaw." This word is not only used for knowledge, but is also used for sex, several times in the OT husbands "Yawdawed" there wives and they had children. It seems that the word "Yawdaw" has some very intimate implications. Adam knew that he should not eat of the tree. After he ate of the tree, however, this knowledge of good and evil might have become an intimate part of him. This might be the difference between the knowledge of what was right before the fall, and the knowledge that he had after the fall.

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Christians maintained that Adam and Eve did die (but not of Eves partaking, rather it was Adams partaking) but they did not die physically (obviously) they died spiritually, but not in the sense that the spirit ceased to be something that would not live on for the rest of eternity, rather spiritual death meant that they were separated from God, and for the generations to come, haters of God.

 

Yes, I am familiar with the "spiritual death" excuse. I was a fundy for 25 years and used the same argument. But I see now that it's crap. How can one die spiritually?? No matter where you go, God is there. (Ps 139:7-8) He is EVERYWHERE spiritually, and is nowhere to be found physically. You cannot seperate your spirit from God. Sorry to burst your bubble, but He even says He's in hell (Ps 139). Saying that seperation from God is the same as DEATH is an attempt to save the Genesis passage from being an embarrassment. It is obvious that God was wrong. He either lied, didn't know, or used the wrong words to communicate. Take your pick.

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That's where Elvis died!

 

Hail to the KING!

 

Also, the involvement of satan in the Garden wasn't, um, "discovered' until about the 7th century I believe, along with the 7 deadly sins, another papal product. Ironic subnote, the 7 cardinal virtues are direct ripoffs of Plato... only 3 of them are original.

 

Merlin

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Christians maintained that Adam and Eve did die (but not of Eves partaking, rather it was Adams partaking) but they did not die physically (obviously) they died spiritually, but not in the sense that the spirit ceased to be something that would not live on for the rest of eternity, rather spiritual death meant that they were separated from God, and for the generations to come, haters of God.

 

But that makes no sense. The spirit, if the Christian is Saved by belief in Jesus and baptism, is supposed to live forever in the Kingdom of Heaven after death, isn't it? (Or at least until the Rapture shows up, and people get their bodies back or whatever nonsense.) So how does eating the fruit kill them spiritually? And how would it separate from God? As Kryten pointed out, God is supposed to be everywhere.

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Great topic.

 

Adam disobeyed. And yes, his "punishment" was gaining the knowledge of good and evil by experience. That's the "punishment" all of us got.

 

God knew Adam would disobey.

 

God planned that an offspring ("seed") of the woman -- in other words, a human whose descent could be traced to Eve, would one day "bruise the Serpent's head" -- that is, deliver a mortal wound that would kill the serpent.

 

The Hebrew word translated "serpent is "nachash" -- it means literally to whisper or mutter or enchant, and has a secondary meaning of brightness. Ezekiel 28:11-19 indicates that Lucifer was in the garden, was incredibly bright and beautiful, and was proud. 2nd Corinthians 11:3 and 14 speak of the serpent, clearly not a snake but a clever spirit being, and mentioning that he transforms himself into an "angel of light". So the Garden of Eden account is a historic record of a man and woman being approached by an angel to get them to disobey their creator. Their effort worked, and the angel seems to have won; the wording about "eating dust", etc. -- snakes -- is metaphorical, a literary description common in literature, to make the point that someday the winner will be the creator, not the angel who deceived humanity into thinking it had to disobey God in order to learn useful things.

 

I suggest you read the last 3 chapters of Revelation (20-22) and compare any of the places, characters, symbolisms or metaphors you find there with the metaphors and characters of Genesis chapters 1-3. This is a good exercise in seeing the trajectory of themes in the Bible.

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Great topic.

 

Adam disobeyed. And yes, his "punishment" was gaining the knowledge of good and evil by experience. That's the "punishment" all of us got.

 

God knew Adam would disobey.

 

God planned that an offspring ("seed") of the woman -- in other words, a human whose descent could be traced to Eve, would one day "bruise the Serpent's head" -- that is, deliver a mortal wound that would kill the serpent.

 

The Hebrew word translated "serpent is "nachash" -- it means literally to whisper or mutter or enchant, and has a secondary meaning of brightness. Ezekiel 28:11-19 indicates that Lucifer was in the garden, was incredibly bright and beautiful, and was proud. 2nd Corinthians 11:3 and 14 speak of the serpent, clearly not a snake but a clever spirit being, and mentioning that he transforms himself into an "angel of light". So the Garden of Eden account is a historic record of a man and woman being approached by an angel to get them to disobey their creator. Their effort worked, and the angel seems to have won; the wording about "eating dust", etc. -- snakes -- is metaphorical, a literary description common in literature, to make the point that someday the winner will be the creator, not the angel who deceived humanity into thinking it had to disobey God in order to learn useful things.

 

I suggest you read the last 3 chapters of Revelation (20-22) and compare any of the places, characters, symbolisms or metaphors you find there with the metaphors and characters of Genesis chapters 1-3. This is a good exercise in seeing the trajectory of themes in the Bible.

 

 

Since Lucifer is a Latin proper name, how did it get into a book originally written in Hebrew? Secondly, we are ExChristians and do not believe these bronze-age fairy tales. Please demonstrate what substantiation you have that these stories can be considered reliable.

 

Bruce

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diggin

 

the problem is your "this is meaphor yet historical" interpretaion will contradict many other xtian spins. Ask 10 xtians what happended and get 10 differant mixtures of literal and metaphor views, there's no consistant view, we'd just have to take your version over others, and we've no reason to, one twisting of translations to produce a "coherant" account is as "good" as another.

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Great topic.

 

Adam disobeyed.

 

What does "disobeyed" mean? Is that good or evil?

 

And yes, his "punishment" was gaining the knowledge of good and evil by experience. That's the "punishment" all of us got.

 

What? God PROMISED (more than once) that the SONS shall NOT pay for the sins of the father (Ez 18:20). Are you calling God a liar? Or are you going to twist it somehow that what Adam's decendants received is somehow NOT punishment-- which you just said it was?

 

God knew Adam would disobey.

 

And he was fine with that? Great plan. Send BILLIONS to ETERNAL TORTURE and save a few to worship me. I will admit that such a love is beyond man's comprehension.

 

God planned that an offspring ("seed") of the woman -- in other words, a human whose descent could be traced to Eve, would one day "bruise the Serpent's head" -- that is, deliver a mortal wound that would kill the serpent.

 

Yes, bruises are almost always fatal. So which church dogma is correct? Did Jesus "bruise" Satan between His death and ressurection, or is Revelation correct that Satan is still alive and will be dealt with in the future?

 

The Hebrew word translated "serpent is "nachash" -- it means literally to whisper or mutter or enchant, and has a secondary meaning of brightness. Ezekiel 28:11-19 indicates that Lucifer was in the garden, was incredibly bright and beautiful, and was proud. 2nd Corinthians 11:3 and 14 speak of the serpent, clearly not a snake but a clever spirit being, and mentioning that he transforms himself into an "angel of light". So the Garden of Eden account is a historic record of a man and woman being approached by an angel to get them to disobey their creator. Their effort worked, and the angel seems to have won; the wording about "eating dust", etc. -- snakes -- is metaphorical, a literary description common in literature, to make the point that someday the winner will be the creator, not the angel who deceived humanity into thinking it had to disobey God in order to learn useful things.

 

Historical record? That's priceless! Sure, eating dust is metaphorical because it's not true. Just go through and pick out the fake parts in the Bible and call them metaphorical. "Apologitic method" vs. "scientific method". So when God clearly SAYS with his own mouth in his own words that the serpent shall eat dust, you, who apparently know more about the bible than your god, are going to claim he didn't really mean what he clearly said. Great application of the apologetic method.

 

I suggest you read the last 3 chapters of Revelation (20-22) and compare any of the places, characters, symbolisms or metaphors you find there with the metaphors and characters of Genesis chapters 1-3. This is a good exercise in seeing the trajectory of themes in the Bible.

 

Themes in the Bible? Look at the THOUSANDS of Christian denominations that ALL base their doctrine on the SAME BIBLE, and you'll see many conflicting themes and ideas-- some differences are subtle, some stark, and some mutually exclusive to each other. What makes you think YOUR interpretation is correct?

 

I suggest you read the whole Bible and stop picking out the verses that you like and ignoring the ones that "trouble" you. I just read the last three chapters of Revelation again. And yes, you are correct that it rewrites part of Genesis to align with what the church teaches, just like the rest of the NT. Go figure. New ideas, new testament. (Hey, remember how some fundies used to claim that God never changes? Ha! Losers...)

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. . . What makes you think YOUR interpretation is correct? 

 

Oops! I forgot I already knew the answer. It's the Holy Spirit who leads you into all truth. So, just for our edification, which Holy Spirit do you have? The Assembly of God? Church of Christ? Catholic? Eastern Orthodox? Lutheran?

Just curious...

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  • 7 months later...

Why did god put the tree in the garden anyway?

It is silly to put something in a garden then say do not touch that.

Why does god allow the serpent their in the first place?

Bible god knows everything right so he knew what was going to happen.

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