Tomb Of Jesus

[Grandpa Harley]

The line of James wasn't expunged until around Theodiseus' time (two emperors after Constantine).

 

The Gospel of Thomas, that was finally thrown out of the church at Trentino, contains the following

 

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

 

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

 

which reads rather like Jesus was handing the whatever title he claimed to James.

[Amanda]

They might as well say they've found a fairie bower.

Jun, what is interesting... that is what they said about Imhotep too, till fairly recently.

 

Why do you think there could not have been a real person at the core of all these superimposed myths?

 

If I were a christian, all this would have enormous implications, since the documentary suggests that Jesus and Mary were married and Judah was their son! No wonder the tomb was covered up and forgotten. It's opened up a can of worms that no one knows how to handle. As an ex-christian, I might have to accept that Jesus actually lived, which is something I did not believe was true. It will be interesting to see how the christian community handles this.

Kevin, these findings don't have a chance of being validated for generations to come, IMO. There are so many people vested either way, they won't accept it. Some believe he never existed, and most Christians believe he never dies. Each seem to be steadfast they are right. It seems to me there is the option he was a normal human being that died. No magic.

 

Only to modern xians is this a problem. To a 1st/2nd century Jewish-xian convert I can imagine the opposite. An unmarried man in his 30's that is a teacher/prophet of god? Unthinkable. Some "purity" nut cases got involved somewhere along the line and this meant that everyone had to keep it in their robes (and this only got worse over time...hitting its peak with the Catholics when they decided they wanted the priests property instead of letting them will it to family...so no more marriage for them).

 

MWC, exactly! How can people sleep at night manipulating people to give up the opportunity to have a family, for their own greed? I guess that's one more aspect at how the Catholic Church has become one of the wealthiest institutions in the world?

 

Wow, really? Which parts? I've looked long and hard to separate the fact from fiction and I've been unable to do it. The more I look the less jesus remains.

MWC, do you remember where you found the person who did the statistics admitted they made an error? It seems to me, when I watched the show, they said it took them awhile to recognize the significance of the grouping of the names because Mary Magdalene was referenced by another name. There had been a recent finding that was her real name, although those that escavated the site were unaware of it at the time. Besides, they had a whole burial site to escavate and catalog in a limited time, as the developer was anxious to finish his complex.

[Amanda]

I thought the Baptist made Josephus by name, which was more than Jesus did...

We're not so sure of that. As it stands right now, Josephus' writings show he did say something about Jesus. Here it says Josephus wrote this:

 

3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

 

I understand there are some doubters as to the authenticity of this inclusion into the work of Josephus. The site I referenced gives more details on some reasons some are skeptical about its validity. However, we do not KNOW Josephus did not write it, and I think it still remains in Josephus work even today.

[Jun]

Jun, what is interesting... that is what they said about Imhotep too, till fairly recently.

 

Why do you think there could not have been a real person at the core of all these superimposed myths?

 

Mmmm. I don't know really. The Jesus never existed site has some rather strong evidence for his never having existed. http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts -

If Jesus had been the creation of a single author his character might have been consistent and believable. But as the work of many hands the godman is a mass of contradictions, most notoriously over his very divinity.

 

Here - http://jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

[mwc]

MWC, do you remember where you found the person who did the statistics admitted they made an error? It seems to me, when I watched the show, they said it took them awhile to recognize the significance of the grouping of the names because Mary Magdalene was referenced by another name. There had been a recent finding that was her real name, although those that escavated the site were unaware of it at the time. Besides, they had a whole burial site to escavate and catalog in a limited time, as the developer was anxious to finish his complex.

Your argument is specious at best. The text you're talking about, the Acts of Philip, dates to something like the 4th century. This is long, long after the supposed events. Do you have an earlier text to show that this person was known by this name closer to the supposed events? No? Neither does anyone else. Several hundred years after the fact does not a convincing argument make.

 

Also, as I've pointed out, the name was in use in the 1st century when this Mary should have been out and about since it was in use in the Herod's house (it was the name of the wife he offed). The "mara" part is the "unknown" considering it could mean different things to different groups.

 

However, an archaeologist would know the name and what it meant (Mary). They would have the basis for further investigation if they thought there truly was something there (jesus, two Mary's, Joses, and so on...the name "cluster" is still there). No one did. The fact that the initial excavation was rushed doesn't mean the papers and artifacts that have just been sitting there are in any way corrupted. No one of merit found them of value. The one guy that has taken an interest has a very weak case (their names are the like one in the book...a book that was likely put together in fits and spurts over a century or more...and the earliest pieces of it are from the 2nd century). Where are the further tests they promised? The "more" evidence that just didn't make it into the show? It seems those were empty promises but perhaps I'm being impatient?

 

Now what part of this should I get excited about and be jumping on board with?

 

mwc

[Amanda]

Jun, what is interesting... that is what they said about Imhotep too, till fairly recently.

 

Why do you think there could not have been a real person at the core of all these superimposed myths?

 

Mmmm. I don't know really. The Jesus never existed site has some rather strong evidence for his never having existed. http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts -

If Jesus had been the creation of a single author his character might have been consistent and believable. But as the work of many hands the godman is a mass of contradictions, most notoriously over his very divinity.

 

Here - http://jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

Jun... I clearly agree there are myths and probably other people (Imhotep, Ben Sira?) who were superimposed onto this character in the bible, plus it is obvious in the way it is even written today... such as 'he is the hidden man of the heart'. We all know there is no actual man hiding in our organ called the heart! That is why I asked you about a real man being at the CORE of these myths. Like St. Nicholas is a real man that has evolved into Santa Claus, and even like Imhotep. It seems there are many examples in history of that very scenario.

 

However, an archaeologist would know the name and what it meant (Mary). They would have the basis for further investigation if they thought there truly was something there (jesus, two Mary's, Joses, and so on...the name "cluster" is still there). No one did. The fact that the initial excavation was rushed doesn't mean the papers and artifacts that have just been sitting there are in any way corrupted. No one of merit found them of value. The one guy that has taken an interest has a very weak case (their names are the like one in the book...a book that was likely put together in fits and spurts over a century or more...and the earliest pieces of it are from the 2nd century). Where are the further tests they promised? The "more" evidence that just didn't make it into the show? It seems those were empty promises but perhaps I'm being impatient?

 

MWC, as I understood the excavation, there was no reason to look for the tomb of Jesus. Someone who was building an apartment complex stumbled onto these ruins, and as required by law allowed a brief time for their excavation. Preserving the integrity of all these findings must have been a real chore, especially to get it done so the anxious developer could get busy with his project. The people of the documentary suggests that additional tests and exploration be done here. Although, as I've also suggested, there are so many people on each side vested in 'their side', I think it will be impossible to face it being real, even if it is real! Christians want to say NO, and those that are bent on deposing christianity want to say NO. So, if it were to be true, what chance would it have? How many people will present both sides of the argument? Let's just say the odds are against it being evaluated for any veracity. It may not be the real tomb, I don't know either. It really doesn't make any difference to me, as I just find it interesting and chose to remain open minded.

[Jun]

Jun, what is interesting... that is what they said about Imhotep too, till fairly recently.

 

Why do you think there could not have been a real person at the core of all these superimposed myths?

 

Mmmm. I don't know really. The Jesus never existed site has some rather strong evidence for his never having existed. http://jesusneverexisted.com/index.html

 

This pretty much sums up my thoughts -

If Jesus had been the creation of a single author his character might have been consistent and believable. But as the work of many hands the godman is a mass of contradictions, most notoriously over his very divinity.

 

Here - http://jesusneverexisted.com/melange.html

 

Jun... I clearly agree there are myths and probably other people (Imhotep, Ben Sira?) who were superimposed onto this character in the bible, plus it is obvious in the way it is even written today... such as 'he is the hidden man of the heart'. We all know there is no actual man hiding in our organ called the heart! That is why I asked you about a real man being at the CORE of these myths. Like St. Nicholas is a real man that has evolved into Santa Claus, and even like Imhotep. It seems there are many examples in history of that very scenario.

 

I can accept that there may have been one man at the core of the Jesus story. That's something that Barbara Thiering suggests in her book "Jesus the man." Her evidence for Jesus being a real flesh and blood man comes from her twenty years of studying the Dead Sea Scrolls. I've read it (quite a while back), and although her work is well researched and presented, it didn't convince me either way.

[mwc]

MWC, as I understood the excavation, there was no reason to look for the tomb of Jesus. Someone who was building an apartment complex stumbled onto these ruins, and as required by law allowed a brief time for their excavation. Preserving the integrity of all these findings must have been a real chore, especially to get it done so the anxious developer could get busy with his project. The people of the documentary suggests that additional tests and exploration be done here. Although, as I've also suggested, there are so many people on each side vested in 'their side', I think it will be impossible to face it being real, even if it is real! Christians want to say NO, and those that are bent on deposing christianity want to say NO. So, if it were to be true, what chance would it have? How many people will present both sides of the argument? Let's just say the odds are against it being evaluated for any veracity. It may not be the real tomb, I don't know either. It really doesn't make any difference to me, as I just find it interesting and chose to remain open minded.

Right, it was partially bulldozer archaeology. But that only affected the entrance. The contents all appeared to be intact. The IAA came out once they were notified and the whole thing was then quickly, as a result of the construction, excavated. But, and here's the thing, those artifacts were still available after the construction continued. The people who pulled those objects could have continued their work. They didn't. At no point do these people claim that they were the victims of some political game and the artifacts were kept from them. The research stopped because they didn't feel there was anything further to learn seems to be the point.

 

A further consideration is the TOMB STILL EXISTS. If this truly was the tomb of jesus and "they" are trying to hide that fact it would seem in the best interest of everyone for that tomb to be covered over like the 2nd tomb in the show or for it to meet an "accidental" end during construction. But it is still there and extremely easy to access (if you bother to get the proper permits...the people on the show did not by their own admission...and even when they were in the tomb they failed to show us the writing they saw for some curious reason so it wasn't all about full disclosure despite how they wanted us to feel).

 

So the original artifacts can be accessed. The original dig paperwork can be accessed. The tomb can be accessed (although thanks to this show perhaps not anymore). The original workers can be accessed. Have all these people conspired to keep the "truth" about this one tomb a secret or is the argument for simply specious?

 

I'll have to side with the latter.

 

mwc

[mwc]

A brief tangent to all this tomb stuff is this link. It basically talks about how it's not uncommon to find Greek inscriptions in Jewish burials during the time in question. If I remember the article correctly it states that in the time and area we're speaking about it was around 40%. So this further reduces the impact of the "Mary Magdalene" inscription.

 

The article I link to is a fairly enlightening read for what the Jews were "open" to during first first couple centuries CE or so and it's reasonably short, so I recommend reading it. They weren't so "pure" of religion as everyone tries to make them out to be (unless people going to Hades because of Fate is a monotheistic idea I'm not aware of).

 

mwc

[Grandpa Harley]

Zathras has been saying that Jerusalem was like Rick's in Casablanca since he arrive... No one listen to Zathras... Sad life Zatrhras has... Probably sad death too... Such is Zathras' lot... *sigh*

[NotBlinded]

A brief tangent to all this tomb stuff is this link. It basically talks about how it's not uncommon to find Greek inscriptions in Jewish burials during the time in question. If I remember the article correctly it states that in the time and area we're speaking about it was around 40%. So this further reduces the impact of the "Mary Magdalene" inscription.

 

The article I link to is a fairly enlightening read for what the Jews were "open" to during first first couple centuries CE or so and it's reasonably short, so I recommend reading it. They weren't so "pure" of religion as everyone tries to make them out to be (unless people going to Hades because of Fate is a monotheistic idea I'm not aware of).

 

mwc

Thanks for the link, mwc. That was a good read and now leaves me wondering what language Jesus (if he lived) really spoke??

[Grandpa Harley]

It would be Aramaic, with a working knowledge of Greek and Latin. There are Greek words in Welsh due to the lead trade as a parallel. Greek was the language of trade, understood from Norway to China.

[NotBlinded]

It would be Aramaic, with a working knowledge of Greek and Latin. There are Greek words in Welsh due to the lead trade as a parallel. Greek was the language of trade, understood from Norway to China.

Thanks!

[Grandpa Harley]

It would be Aramaic, with a working knowledge of Greek and Latin. There are Greek words in Welsh due to the lead trade as a parallel. Greek was the language of trade, understood from Norway to China.

Thanks!

He'd know some Latin certainly... Greek is a possible...

 

One other thing about Jerusalem, it was the first place where the spice and the silk roads met in the west. As such there were Chinese (Taoist/Confucian), India (Buddhist/Hindu), Japanese (Shinto?), Romans( and representative memebers of Empire), Greeks, Egyptians, Nubians, Cornish, Welsh, Irish, Vikings, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Persians, the random tribes that became the Afghans, other random tribes from Western North Africa, Black Sea tribes, the Khazars, and on and on... the nature of Rome was a combination of conquest and trade. Hence my assertion that Jerusalem was like Rick's in Casablanca, just with the Romans in place of the Nazis...

[NotBlinded]

It would be Aramaic, with a working knowledge of Greek and Latin. There are Greek words in Welsh due to the lead trade as a parallel. Greek was the language of trade, understood from Norway to China.

Thanks!

He'd know some Latin certainly... Greek is a possible...

 

One other thing about Jerusalem, it was the first place where the spice and the silk roads met in the west. As such there were Chinese (Taoist/Confucian), India (Buddhist/Hindu), Japanese (Shinto?), Romans( and representative memebers of Empire), Greeks, Egyptians, Nubians, Cornish, Welsh, Irish, Vikings, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Persians, the random tribes that became the Afghans, other random tribes from Western North Africa, Black Sea tribes, the Khazars, and on and on... the nature of Rome was a combination of conquest and trade. Hence my assertion that Jerusalem was like Rick's in Casablanca, just with the Romans in place of the Nazis...

Between you and mwc I will get more history than I ever dreamed possible! To think that I used to hate history...

 

They always tell the facts but never the implications.

[Grandpa Harley]

History, especially of Biblical times, is taught like nothing interacted much with anything else... what I call the pocket universe view of the world. China didn't really withdraw into itself until post-1421... there is even a school of thought that some of the ships off northern New Zealand are Chinese (the NZ govt have cordoned off the area and won't let people near them... NZ archaeology, rather like North American, and the Holy Land, is awash with special interest groups, in the case of NA and NZ around 'indigenous' peoples... who may or may not be as indigenous as they'd like)

[mwc]

Thanks for the link, mwc. That was a good read and now leaves me wondering what language Jesus (if he lived) really spoke??

Tongues.

 

 

Nah...that was Paul. GH already nailed it with his odd mix of Casablanca and B5 references.

 

mwc

[NotBlinded]

Thanks for the link, mwc. That was a good read and now leaves me wondering what language Jesus (if he lived) really spoke??

Tounges.

 

 

Nah...that was Paul. GH already nailed it with his odd mix of Casablanca and B5 references.

 

mwc

Tounges!