Lokmer Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 (1) I got here by accident, stayed out of curiosity, and really enjoy the wonderful arena I've found here. And I didn't know that ALL ExChristians despise what "I" believe in... I didn't even know you all knew what all my beliefs are!!! How did you all do that? Well, if you're a Christian, then Ex-Christians generally don't believe and in some cases utterly despise the doctrines you hold to. It seems pretty basic to me. (2) There you go again... so you think you know what "faith" I hold! If you know that, I'd love to learn just how you could possibly know. Umm...the question is particularly directed at Christians. If you're not a Christian, it doesn't apply to you. if you ARE a Christian, then you do, by definition, believe in the death/resurrection/atonement of the Godman Jesus, son of God. And you also hold to some sort of scriptural authority. If you don't believe those things, then by definition you're not a Christian. The Nicene Creed - or at LEAST the Apostles' creed - defines the word "Christian." You don't believe them? Pick a different label. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 "They have Spiritual blindness and will not see the truth unless they believe first." "They could have never been Christians, because a True Christian would never walk away from their faith." There are many comebacks as to why one won't believe or has fallen away. Is that what you were asking? Ok ...so what is your answer then ? Seems very non-committal. If these are your answers then a lot of people here will take issue with referring to them as not ever being a TRUE CHRISTIAN tm . And since I never was christian I take issue with the first statement. Prove to me that christianity has a monopoly on truth (without the bible thank you ) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Ian, I don't think TAP is saying that she believes these quotes, but that she has heard others use these excuses and will use our answers as a kind of rebuttle against them. Am I close? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 Yes, Cerise. I use to use those same quotes. Participating in this forum has forced me think differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfunkman Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 As a person who has been "witnessed" to by christians off and on for the last 25 years and as a person who has read the ENTIRE bible( old and new testiment) the only "real" and "truthfull" reasons for christians to believe in the bible is fear of hell. Christians who have told me about Jesus say they have done so in order to "save me" from an eternity of torture in Hell. And in reading the bible I have found the message of believing in the bible and Jesus is to save you from the "wrath of god" and not to have to burn in Hell for all eternity. I know there are other reasons but being saved from an eternity of Hell is probably #1 reason to be a christian. But I have noticed that very few christians will truthfully admit this or even mention it. I'm not a christian but I do hold honesty as an important virtue in my life and being honest with others as well as myself really means a lot to me. I also thought that honesty was one of the positive "christian" virtues. Why is it that so few christians are not truthfull about their fear of Hell. That the bible is really a book based on fear. The bible's description of Heaven doesn't really sound too appealing to me but the idea of Hell does sound a bit worse and not a place anyone would want to be sent to for eternity. If you take "eternal punishment" out of the bible would people still cling to it to be saved? I could go on and on here but I'll leave it at this. Why don't christians just come right out and say it... "I'm terribly afraid that if I don't believe in the bible and Jesus, I will burn in Hell for all eternity"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest grizzlyfireguy Posted June 10, 2005 Share Posted June 10, 2005 the truth is-----there are so many christians who become christians because they believe or they were told that live and everything will be great after that----which isn't true---quite the opposite--christians are supposed to fear God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Well, if you're a Christian, then Ex-Christians generally don't believe and in some cases utterly despise the doctrines you hold to. It seems pretty basic to me.Umm...the question is particularly directed at Christians. If you're not a Christian, it doesn't apply to you. if you ARE a Christian, then you do, by definition, believe in the death/resurrection/atonement of the Godman Jesus, son of God. And you also hold to some sort of scriptural authority. If you don't believe those things, then by definition you're not a Christian. The Nicene Creed - or at LEAST the Apostles' creed - defines the word "Christian." You don't believe them? Pick a different label. -Lokmer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Dear Lokmer... thank you for sharing with me how Christianity is in YOUR world. I do appreciate it and give it its due respect... which is significant!!! Really! Perhaps if you will indulge me in my understanding of Christianity... it merely means to strive to be Christ-like. I suppose that makes it dependent upon one's interpretation of Jesus, but the closer to the 'TRUTH' the better.... and who really knows what that is! I am curious to know what other label, in your opinion, would be more appropriate for me? I truly will consider its merits... really! You seem to speak with knowledge of the popular designations of the "Christian" in the popular arena, yet I am limited to the original text in deciphering my own conclusions instead of KJV or anyone else, with great emphasis in the NT... so I am unaware of the ilk of the Nicene, the Baptist, and the Mormon dogma... or any other organized religion. Sorry! If you want to help me here, I'm all ears... I just don't see where that will help get to the Truth? I do believe in the death, resurrection, and atonement... and these PRINCIPLES are absolutely liberating in MY world... yet they are not traditional beliefs... but fundamentally congruent with my studies of the original text. It seems to me that for ALL to be accepted into an inclusive rally without merit is a good thing... but done by PRINCIPLES and not some sort of magic... now are you sure you know my beliefs? Just curious... and am absolutely honored to engage you for the search for truth, instead of an attack for the sake of being right. It is always possible to agree to disagree... I hope.... yet, you may know the rules on this site better than I my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Amanda, What original text are you referring to? The earliest surviving copies of any complete scripture (cannonical or apocryphal) of a Christian nature is in the 4th century. There are no extant original copies of any Christian scripture anywhere that is known. So when you claim to base your beliefs on "original texts", I would be very interested in what you consider to be these texts. Bruce Dear Lokmer... thank you for sharing with me how Christianity is in YOUR world. I do appreciate it and give it its due respect... which is significant!!! Really! Perhaps if you will indulge me in my understanding of Christianity... it merely means to strive to be Christ-like. I suppose that makes it dependent upon one's interpretation of Jesus, but the closer to the 'TRUTH' the better.... and who really knows what that is! I am curious to know what other label, in your opinion, would be more appropriate for me? I truly will consider its merits... really! You seem to speak with knowledge of the popular designations of the "Christian" in the popular arena, yet I am limited to the original text in deciphering my own conclusions instead of KJV or anyone else, with great emphasis in the NT... so I am unaware of the ilk of the Nicene, the Baptist, and the Mormon dogma... or any other organized religion. Sorry! If you want to help me here, I'm all ears... I just don't see where that will help get to the Truth? I do believe in the death, resurrection, and atonement... and these PRINCIPLES are absolutely liberating in MY world... yet they are not traditional beliefs... but fundamentally congruent with my studies of the original text. It seems to me that for ALL to be accepted into an inclusive rally without merit is a good thing... but done by PRINCIPLES and not some sort of magic... now are you sure you know my beliefs? Just curious... and am absolutely honored to engage you for the search for truth, instead of an attack for the sake of being right. It is always possible to agree to disagree... I hope.... yet, you may know the rules on this site better than I my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 Perhaps if you will indulge me in my understanding of Christianity... it merely means to strive to be Christ-like. I suppose that makes it dependent upon one's interpretation of Jesus, but the closer to the 'TRUTH' the better.... and who really knows what that is! I am curious to know what other label, in your opinion, would be more appropriate for me? I truly will consider its merits... really! Well, at first blush (from what you describe) you seem to fit into the neo-orthodox school of "Jesus Radicals." You can find a bit of the history of the movement and some of its influential writings at http://www.jesusradicals.org. They are, nominally, Christian in that they are Jesus-centric and believe in the atonement, but they hold to none of the other doctrines that make up Christianity. You seem to speak with knowledge of the popular designations of the "Christian" in the popular arena, Your use of the term "popular" here connotes a lack of understanding of the historical development of your faith tradition. The creeds and designations I'm referring to are doctrinal taxonomies - ways of differentiating different schools of belief in the religious world and particularly the Christian world. "Popular" refers, generally, to what the man on the street thinks, and has no bearing here (as the man on the street is generally ill-informed and operating from prejudice). "Populist" is a term that applies very well to the way you approach your faith - and something that Martin Luther pioneered (the right of every person to approach God and be approached by God without the intermediary structure of the church). yet I am limited to the original text in deciphering my own conclusions instead of KJV or anyone else, with great emphasis in the NT... so I am unaware of the ilk of the Nicene, the Baptist, and the Mormon dogma... or any other organized religion. Sorry! If you want to help me here, I'm all ears... I just don't see where that will help get to the Truth? Don't take this as insulting, as it's not meant to be, but you probably don't know where your beliefs come from. Very few people do. When you approach the Bible, you are approaching it with a set of attitudes and assumptions that are uniquely Western and Christian in character. You believe it's the Word of God. You believe that it being the Word of God means that God had something tangible to do with its authorship. You believe its words are authoritative, and speak of a single god that makes the universe and desires relationship with his creatures, of original sin passed down from Adam that seperates Man from God, of of a redeemer that repairs the breach through human sacrifice and blood-atonement, etc. These are doctrinal positions. Doctrines define Christianity, and always have - not a fondness for a particular mythology or character. The docrines which define and govern Christianity were codified in the second through fifth centuries, the earliest (late 2nd century) being the Apostle's Creed, and the latest universally-accepted one (before the east/west split of the church) being the Nicene Creed. If you *don't* hold to at least a good portion of those creeds, you are (by definition) a heretic, apostate, or non-Christian. I do believe in the death, resurrection, and atonement... and these PRINCIPLES are absolutely liberating in MY world... yet they are not traditional beliefs... but fundamentally congruent with my studies of the original text. Actually, they are traditional beliefs. That they are supported by "the text" is not surprising, as "the text" was collected and compiled and vetted based upon its doctrinal agreement with whatever local congregation was doing the compiling. The cycle went something like this: an evangelist starts a church, the church collects writings it believs to be authoritative based on the words of that evangelist, then they send out evangelists who preach the gospel based on their collected texts. Eventually, the churches start running into each other and comparing notes on their textual collections, throwing out some, keeping others, and, over the course of centuries, narrowing the field of candidates until there's a collection that most churches accept (at this time, there are at least seven recognized Canons of the new testament - your collection is the one approved of by John Calvin. The Lutherans have another, the Coptics another, the Etheopians another, the Syrians another, the Eastern orthodox another, and the Catholics yet another). The meaning of the death, resurrection, and atonement varies wildly between Christian churches, with some even going so far as to say that God was atoning for his failure to keep his covenant with Israel, rather than for Man's failure in sin. All of these interpretations fall within Christianity and are WELL supported by the text. now are you sure you know my beliefs? Just curious... and am absolutely honored to engage you for the search for truth, instead of an attack for the sake of being right. It is always possible to agree to disagree... Your beliefs are your business. You may be a follower of Christ, but I'm big on truth in labelling. Don't call yourself a Christian if you can't say the creeds. Here they are: The Apostle's Creed The Nicene Creed. We can get into a fun doctrinal or theology debate anytime, but let's not do it on this thread. Hopefully my explication here illuminates my reasons for complaining about your calling yourself a Christian while claiming to believe differently from Christianity. -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOIL Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Lokmer, In following some links (beginning at that "reformed.org" site you provided the link to), I came across something I am happy to see! A Christian site links to something on the infidels.org site! I seem to remember someone here (not necessarily you) complaining about how Christian sites don't refer back to articles on the infidels.org site when they are challenged - and I was starting to believe that most often the case. Actually I suspect it probably is true too often (though I suspect many - if not most - Christian authors may not even be aware their books/positions have been formally challenged at the "infidels" site. I haven't read either of these specific articles (see below) - but I just thought I would point out what I have. Why Bertrand Russell Was Not A Christian - by Rev. Ralph Allan Smith (1996) -Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokmer Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 Dennis, it is highly unusual for Christian sites to give a linkback. Probably the best about doing so is Mark McFall of Frontline Apologetics. Infidels.org always notifies people when they post refutations of their work, to allow them the opportunity to respond. They also sometimes host Christian responses to their articles when the Christian author doesn't have his own website. ---- The article on Russel? Everytime I see something like this I'm excited to hear if there's some new argument...and every time I'm disappointed. Particularly this time - how oh how can a man of your intelligence take presuppositional apologetics seriously? In dismay -Lokmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Particularly this time - how oh how can a man of your intelligence take presuppositional apologetics seriously? In dismay -Lokmer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm left wondering this many times myself Lok. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vanesa Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Look, SOIL, TAP, Grizzly, Amanda, and the rest of the Xtian clowns: Why do you bother coming here and try to shovel that BS down our throats? I can see why the ex-Xtians left your business. I certainly wouldn't want the same tired mediocre philosophical hot air and flatulence blown in my face every day. And you people want hucksters like Bush and Cheney the rump ranger in office! And for those of you who aren't as militant about your prostelyzing mentality, don't think that you're any better. I see that Awanda or whatever your name is posting something about being Christ-like, I didn't finish reading because I almost fell asleep, that is a form of prostelyzing. Anyone who professes themselves to be a Xtian is just as dangerous in my book as those who support them or aggressively push the religion in my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydDobler Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I believe that these persons are not beyond saving, and my God calls me to minister to them with love. Abuse is something that i can tolerate on a forum, and i would be more than happy to endure it if i can proclaim the Word of God at the same time. This is not your mission field and you do not belong, and are not welcome here if that is your purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I believe that these persons are not beyond saving, and my God calls me to minister to them with love. Abuse is something that i can tolerate on a forum, and i would be more than happy to endure it if i can proclaim the Word of God at the same time. This is not your mission field and you do not belong, and are not welcome here if that is your purpose. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ditto. Something tells me this guy won't be around for much longer if he persists the way he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryn101 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Your very own "Debating with Christians" forum says this: "Attention Real Christians! This is the section of the board to post Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on. Even agressive evangelism will be tolerated in this section of the forum. However, do expect very heated responses." So... according to your mods, i can evangelize here without any problems. But evangelizing is not my only purpose, i wish to simply discuss certain matters with the members here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 It isn't debate if all you do is bulldoze your way through posts without reading them and with your head down so that you cannot see. Learn from the examples of others. Also, from the guidelines of this site: Finally, ExChistian Forums is not a "flock of sheep" for Christians to preach to, proselytize or otherwise engage in worship, etc. If Christian members wish to do any of the above, ChristianForums.com is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryn101 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 It isn't debate if all you do is bulldoze your way through posts without reading them and with your head down so that you cannot see. Learn from the examples of others. Also, from the guidelines of this site: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I will adhere to your rules then, and keep any of my evangelizing strictly within your "Debating with Christians" section. And i do not bulldoze through posts, I am not God, and i cannot answer everybodies' questions... even if i did know the exact answer all the time. I am not perfect, and it is not humanly possible to answer EVERY question you people throw at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 We aren't asking you to answer questions. I would be satisfied if you were simply open enough to listen without making assertions. Sadly, very few Christians are, I find, this open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryn101 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 We aren't asking you to answer questions. I would be satisfied if you were simply open enough to listen without making assertions. Sadly, very few Christians are, I find, this open. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I always try to listen, and if this is a widespread desire, then i will make every effort to actively think about what is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vanesa Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 No you're not, Aaron. Xtians are mean people and they aren't open about anything (with the exception of their collections dishes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryn101 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 No you're not, Aaron. Xtians are mean people and they aren't open about anything (with the exception of their collections dishes) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You can not tell me who i am. You do not know me. So please do not make assertions about people that you do not know. I know many many christians who are both open and nice. Don't stereotype, it can backfire on you big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vanesa Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Uh, no. Xtians are mean people. The ones that aren't mean aren't Xtians. Xtians want MONEY! $$$$$$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Uh, no. Xtians are mean people. The ones that aren't mean aren't Xtians. Xtians want MONEY! $$$$$$$ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ??? What are you talking about vanesa? What does money have to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaryn101 Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Uh, no. Xtians are mean people. The ones that aren't mean aren't Xtians. Xtians want MONEY! $$$$$$$ <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You can not possibly be serious. Was that what your mommy told you? Because you sound like you have not met a single Christian, and have merely been spoonfed the lies that the media tell you. Regardless, unless you post something that shows that you, in fact, arent ignorant about this... i will ignore your statements about Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts