Organizing A Fight-the-fundy Foundation

[Guest Arion]

Ruby Sera,

 

I've been interested in doing something like what you've been talking about for years. It seems to me that the religious right has all kinds of marketing campaigns, devices and activist tactics to get their message out ot the masses in a repetitive manner. Their are various x-tian organizations that use different apporaches to promoting their point of view. Ultimately I think the atheistic, scientific appraoch has to have a multipronged approach. But the one tactic that x-tians have used and that I think atheists can use effectively is the use of the web to post banners that lead to websites (I have seen fundies post banner on the New York Times and on the Scientific American asking to "click here" to, incredibly, find out the truth about evolution from a biblical perspective.) Its like stealth marketing -you lure the x-tian in and then bombard him in a non-threatening way with bible contradictions. Alternatively and perhaps more cheaply, imagine if we pooled our resources and purchased a x-tian e-mail list and e-mailed the "Gospel Quiz" from this website to thousands of x-tians asking them to "test your Biblical Knowledge." I think the response would be tremendous in that many would take the test because their ego would compel them. Of course when confronted with the failing scores, many would likely to question the contents of the bible. Even if they would not convert it might open their eyes a little. It is a powerful little qiz and it works. I know because I tried something similar on a devout catholic and he was taken aback by the contradictions of the bible.

 

 

An activist web-based organization that can develop tactics like this and marshall resources on a project basis is sorely needed. I have visted many non-religious websites and many are very good. But I unlike the x-tian sites which come to me on a daily basis, I never see skeptical sites unless I search them out. And the skeptical sites don't seem to engage in this kind of guerrilla marketing.

 

Actually getting started is the difficult part. It would be easier if an already existing organization would be willing to partner in your endeavor. I have some ideas on how to do this nad would be happy to discuss them.

 

Z

 

Personally, I believe we could do this without any help. Not to mention the fact that I personally have startup and programming experience that I can offer freely to this cause. All we would really need help with is the graphics and my fiance knows quite a few web-designers.

 

 

This may seem like an incredibly silly idea, but I'll give it a go.

 

I'm a geek, I go to anime convention so I can hang out with other geeks. Now I'm not calling anyone a geek, but what if after we gained a larger following we set up an annual convention. Once a year, once every two years.....whenever we had enough donations to do so.

It may seem silly, however talking online is great, but I've always thought that meeting face to face gives you a much better feel for the reality of the situation.

 

It would take a lot of work, and I know not all Ex-Cs are wealthy enough to buy a plane ticket and leave work to go to a meeting, but it might be worth a shot.

 

Great idea, we could start up donations for those who can't make it on their own.

[R. S. Martin]

Hi folks. I've been reading your posts. I feel encouraged with the support and offers that are being expressed. I noticed quite a few folk have actually signed up. I've been trying to figure out if/how/where we can set up a place where we can discuss some of the ideas. I'm not a computer techie. I can work with simple tools. The biggest input I can offer is intellectual and networking so long as it's using free channels such as email. I have been looking around this site for a place where we can talk. Or should I set something up on fff site?

[Guest Arion]

Well, it all depends, you wish to actually talk, and everyone has mics...I can set up a Teamspeak Server. Or, I can find a nice, cheap chat program for the site until I finish my own.

[R. S. Martin]

Well, it all depends, you wish to actually talk, and everyone has mics...I can set up a Teamspeak Server. Or, I can find a nice, cheap chat program for the site until I finish my own.

 

I sent you a pm about this. I'm practically "brain dead" tonight. I did figure out how to activate the accounts of folks who registered. Now you should be able to get in to post if you want to.

[truth]

Hi RubySera,

 

Great idea... just registered

[Guest Arion]

Also, if you'd like, I could help you out with the technical side of that forum....

[KenneyVTX]

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/

 

Don't go too far with this idea, you night end up like this mob. Have a gander.

 

OMG... they are local. *hangs head in shame*

 

However, on another note. Ruby, I can offer some storage if you need it possibly rather unprofessional hosting.

[Jun]

Just a question, isn't what you are proposing the same as what the Rational Response Squad is doing?

[Grandpa Harley]

But without the Rational Response Cave, the Rational Response Mobile, the Rational Response Signal... (It's a silly name... I'm sorry but it is!)

[Grandpa Harley]

http://www.secular.org/

 

These look interesting too... The Secular Coalition for America

[pandora]

double post...

[pandora]

Ruby, I don't know where you live, but there are already quite a few organized groups out there. CFI (Center for Inquiry) is one in my area, and smaller groups tend to join them because they are national.

 

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/

 

I think it's important to not "attack the fundies" because well, it just seems a little angry. CFI organizes forums in my area, and they are topics like Intelligent Design and other current events... one still gets to "attack" but not necessarily in such an outrightly hostile way, you know?

[Guest Arion]

I had this same discussion with my fiance last night and the following is what I told her, what I believe our goal is/should be:

 

Our goal is to teach others to question themselves and the things around them, so that they may learn "their" truth, to teach others not to just accept what they're told, but to learn for themselves. I personally believe that this world would be a better one without fundamentalist religions, but, to say that, would simply lower me to their level. I guess, in summary, our goal is to fight for the simple right, to believe, what we wish to believe.

 

I, am an athiest, my fiance is not, we don't agree on many things, but we do agree on the right to choose what not to agree on. It is my hope that, when my children reach my age, they will not have to deal with such things, that, they will be able to search for their own truth, for their own religion. We may be like those other organizations, but I personally don't care, I will continue to fight for what I believe in, in my own way no matter what.

[trashy]

They don't count, they're Texans... The mujahideen of the Republic

 

Hey, I'm a Texan. We aren't all nuts.

 

The only reason Austin still exists is to allow people to say that

Cute. So you won't mind if I start taking potshots at all Brits based on stereotype?

 

Regarding the Church of Freethought, I take it you've visited and found them wanting? If not, perhaps you should rethink your statements. One of the frequent topics on Ex-C is how to replace the social web, friendships and activities, etc. that a church provides. This is one attempt to do so. We've never attended a meeting, mainly because we abhorred the church format, but I can see how it would provide a nice transition. Besides, you could tell your family you still attend church without lying.

 

Yes, it's sort of like giving an addict methadone, but I really don't see how it equates to calling all Texans mujahideen. Rather intolerant.

[Grandpa Harley]

I'm an equal opportunity bigot... I hate everyone.

[Brother Jeff]

http://www.churchoffreethought.org/

 

Don't go too far with this idea, you night end up like this mob. Have a gander.

 

OMG... they are local. *hangs head in shame*

 

However, on another note. Ruby, I can offer some storage if you need it possibly rather unprofessional hosting.

 

And the problem with them is...??? I've heard of them before, and after looking over their site I see nothing at all wrong with them or what they are doing. They remind me of the UU folks.

[R. S. Martin]

I had this same discussion with my fiance last night and the following is what I told her, what I believe our goal is/should be:

 

Our goal is to teach others to question themselves and the things around them, so that they may learn "their" truth, to teach others not to just accept what they're told, but to learn for themselves. I personally believe that this world would be a better one without fundamentalist religions, but, to say that, would simply lower me to their level. I guess, in summary, our goal is to fight for the simple right, to believe, what we wish to believe.

 

Arion, and others, I think perhaps I have been rather unclear as to my objectives. As someone said, many sites already exist for the purpose you are describing, Arion.

 

Objective: Develop a Database

 

I have not yet had time to research all the sites listed since my last post.

 

 

Those of you who listed these websites--perhaps you know whether or not they meet the goals I propose here. If so, maybe you could give a brief overview. It would be a fulltime job for me to do all the research myself and I am behind schedule on my "real life" work. The "real life" work for me at the moment is to write my thesis on fundamentalism.

 

 

My objective (with the fight-the-fundy website) is to provide a central station--a database. The scientific community has journals and other venues for sharing information: their findings, their ideas, their failed projects as well as their successful break-throughs.

 

QUESTION: Does such a venue exist for the struggle against fundamentalist religion? If so, I want to know about it.

 

I would guess that on the scholarly level, there are such venues--I should check that out. But I am thinking the average Jane and Joe on the street needs access to the ideas, too. The scholarly literature is heavy reading and not of too much practical value, esp. when we are unexpectedly accosted on the street by an evangelizing fundy.

 

Guiding Questions

 

When we are unexpectedly accosted on the street by an evangelizing fundy:

 

1. What is the best response?
   
2. What have others tried?
   
3. Did it work?
   
4. Did it not work?
   
5. Why did it work?
   
6. Why did it not work?
   
7. Exactly what do we mean by "it worked" or "it did not work"?
   

Rational Debate: No Good

 

One thing that simply does not work is rational debate. The Christian religion has developed an armor that cannot be penetrated by rational debate. It is true that a few people like us here on exC benefit from rational answers and debate. But the masses simply don't. Period.

 

So where do we go from here?

 

1. Let's collect the data.
   
2. Let's compile the data on a single website.
   
3. Let's make the information available to everyone in the world.
   

What good will it do?

 

Thomas Edison: An Example From Science

 

There's a story about Thomas Edison who invented the lightbulb. He had all these people working for him--probably a lot of students. His goal: Find a substance that can burn without burning up. He meant something different from Moses' burning bush.

 

They tried everything--all the way from human hair to I-don't-know-what. The scientific types on this forum would know but I don't.

 

One day someone said to him, "We have tried a thousand things and nothing works." Underlying meaning: Let's give up. This is a hopeless case. No such substance exists or can be invented.

 

Edison replied, "Yes, we now know a thousand things that don't work." Underlying meaning: Let's keep looking; there's gotta be something.

 

Fast-forward to 2007. Light bulb? Huh??? Where would we be without the light-bulb? Back in the Dark Ages, literally. Life would not be so bright. Nor would the air be so clean. Kerosene and gas, the common fuels for lights before the light-bulb was invented, do not burn so clean. Am I ever glad Edison did not give up just because "nothing" worked. Eventually something was found that did work.

 

The Moral of the Story

 

So what if there had been a thousand Edisons, all seeking for the one substance with which to make a light bulb? All of them experimenting with the same old things that everybody else had already tried--and failed. All these duplicate experiments, all because no one knew what others had done before them. Isn't that a rather hopeless case? It certainly is not the way of progress. And that is why the scientific community made a rule that everybody tell everybody else what they tried and how it turned out.

 

That is what I want us to do about fighting fundamentalism.

 

• Share what you tried.
  

• Share how it turned out.
  

• Make your experience or story available for others to see what works and what doesn't work.
  

That is all.

 

Note of Thanks

 

Thanks in advance. Thanks also for all the lively participation on this thread so far and for the offers of help with technology and ideas.

[Guest Arion]

Well now, in that case, we should decide on a proper way to present this information....I'll work on setting up a form to fill out for now, hopefully later we can add it in to whichever forum we decide to use.

[Guest Arion]

I'm currently attempting to setup a chatroom for the FFFR so if anyone would like to help me test it, the following URL will take you to the chatroom:

http://69.244.0.116/chat/freechat/

[Guest Arion]

Correction, appearantly my router is f'ed up so I can't test much of anything at the moment...

[R. S. Martin]

For those of you who haven't kept up, we're posting on Foundation for Fighting Fundamentalism. I just posted a response I got from an educated fundy Christian .

 

I also posted my response to him. I sent it to him about five days ago. Still no response. Is he unable or unwilling to respond? That is not a question I can answer, but I can guesstimate. My guesstimate suggests he has written me off as a person who is not worth his time to argue with. Contrast that with his claim that his faith is strong enough to withstand debate and analysis.

 

If you've got stories to share, consider yourself invited to sign up and tell about it in the Anedotes section.

[R. S. Martin]

UPDATE/CRASH

[Just now I added the bright red part to grab readers' attention because people were missing this post and responding to earlier out-dated stuff. July 22]

 

I'm not sure where to post this. Some of you joined the website that grew out of this discussion. Foundation for Fighting Fundamentalist Religion.

 

There has been a major crash and much has been lost, including registered memberships, posts, and more. If you see that either your membership or your posts are missing, please know that it wasn't me who deleted it. Please register and post again.

 

It was down for about twenty-two hours and I just got back in about an hour ago. Only to find that a major portion of the site has been lost. Nearly two-thirds of the registered memberships are lost, a month's worth of posts, and an entire section of the site. Everything on the forums from June 28 to July 27 has been lost.

 

I posted about it in the announcements section and I sent an email to freeforums that host it. I have copies of some of my main posts/articles but much has been lost.

[Mankey]

But without the Rational Response Cave, the Rational Response Mobile, the Rational Response Signal... (It's a silly name... I'm sorry but it is!)

Yes it is kinda silly. What demographic do you think the RRS is targeting?

 

That demographic will shortly turn 18 and be able to vote.

 

Targeting teens and being somewhat offensive gets attention by the media. Atheist evangelism will get more media attention.

 

I think RubySara is very smart. Her ideas are very good. There needs to be more than just atheist evangelists out there. Rational apostates who suffer from spiritualism need to pitch in too. As much as I hate Christianity, liberal Christians need to show their dissent against fundamentalism as well.

 

I am an anti-theist, but I would not hesitate to put out a fire standing side by side with a fundy christian. There are a few fundy groups that are for separation of church and state. I would be involved in that kind of activism right along side them and be proud of it. I think that it is very possible for an atheist evangelist like myself to become a bigoted asshole if I don't look in the mirror from time to time. I can still work to undermine faith and superstition...but I don't have to hate people. I don't have to avoid associating with the deluded in good causes. Why should I? I can have faith in people even if they are deluded. I think everyone should speak out against militant fundies. Anyone who does has my support.

 

The truth is that I peddle my wares to folks that I run into. I am thinking of the individual when I do what I do more so than anything else. I am satisfied in that way whether or not I change their mind.

[Mankey]

RubySara:

One thing that simply does not work is rational debate. The Christian religion has developed an armor that cannot be penetrated by rational debate. It is true that a few people like us here on exC benefit from rational answers and debate. But the masses simply don't. Period.

 

"One thing that simply does not work is rational debate."

 

"people like us here on exC benefit from rational answers and debate. But the masses simply don't. Period."

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. If you don't understand something then it is not easy to appreciate that thing. If something works very well and you see it through demonstration then you understand it a bit more. I hope you are not suggesting that an ignorant individual can not learn and develop into some one who is less irrational than before.

 

I recommend rational debate with believers that you run into from time to time, or who you are around all the time. Use it in any discussion so that they can see it work. Critical thinking. Logic. Philosophy is for everybody. Thinking is for everybody. The masses are a bunch of individuals also, especially if you catch them by themselves.

 

Examples where they themselves use rational thinking establishes the fact that reason is used by all. It can't be dismissed. Deep down inside everyone values reason - despite the fact that we are not consistent in applying it. Religion can not kill reason, it can only hijack it in cases. Deep down inside it hurts to not be able to demonstrate what you "know" is true.

 

If faith is nothing more than blind hope as Apostle Paul teaches and that Christians are to live by faith as it is written in scripture, then they are stuck believing without a reason. They hope it is true so its true. That is the N.T's definition of faith. To believe without a reason is to be unreasonable. Blind hope doesn't cut it as a reason. This fact does bother some Christians when it is pointed out to them.

 

I would not give up on rational debate/discussion. If it doesn't work try something else. My 2 cents.

[a skeptical believer]

I want in. And I may be able to rustle up some support from "others like me" if you'll have us. Strength in numbers. (But be wary of the political machine)