Debunk My Spiritual Bullshit!

[HadouKen24]

I'll try to be a bit more careful about citing sources, then, if it's giving you trouble.

 

I've read a lot on Houdini and I don't recall this accusation about planting evidence. Quick Wikipedia and Google searches didn't help.....I would appreciate a link, even if it means giving you the chance to insult me and accuse me of not trying...

 

The story in full, from someone sympathetic to the existence of the paranormal: http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/Margery.htm

 

I should have been clearer: it was reported that the assistant later admitted to planting the ruler. There's quite a bit of controversy over the issue.

 

The last I heard those studies had been proven to be statistically insignificant by Milton and Wiseman's meta-analysis...

 

That's not exactly accurate. Milton and Wiseman analyzed 30 later studies. However, their meta-analysis has undergone withering criticism. Milton herself noted that if one includes just the studies published between the completion of the meta-analysis in 1997 and its publication in 1999, the results would be significant (Milton, 1999) It has been criticized for including studies that were designed not in order to verify the reality of psi effects, but to see what might cause them--studies which deviated from the standard ganzfeld procedure. It was shown that these kinds of studies are far less likely to show to show statistically significant results. (Bem, Palmer, Broughton, 2001) There are many other criticisms, of course.

 

More damning, however, to their overall position rejecting the reality of psi phenomena, are the other meta-analyses published in the last 30 years. As of 2006, there had been 13 meta-analyses of psi phenomena, only two of which did not find statistical significance--both of which were published by Milton and Wiseman. (Bosch, Steinkamp, Bolger. 2006)

 

Bem, Daryl J., John Palmer, and , Richard S Broughton. "UPDATING THE GANZFELD DATABASE: A VICTIM OF ITS OWN SUCCESS?" Journal of Parapsychology; Sep2001, Vol. 65 Issue 3, p207, 12p, 1 chart

 

Bosch, Holger, Fiona Steinkamp, and Emil Boller. "Examining Psychokinesis: The Interaction of Human Intention With Random Number Generators- A Meta-Analysis." Psychological Bulletin, Vol 132(4), Jul 2006. pp. 497-523.

 

Milton, Julie. "SHOULD GANZFELD RESEARCH CONTINUE TO BE CRUCIAL IN THE SEARCH FOR A REPLICABLE PSI EFFECT? PART I. DISCUSSION PAPER AND INTRODUCTION TO AN ELECTRONIC-MAIL DISCUSSION." Journal of Parapsychology; Dec99, Vol. 63 Issue 4, p309, 25p

 

Well, I was specifically looking for the Irish studies, not homeopathic studies in general...

 

Hmm. I would have thought you would have come across them in your search, as I did.

 

From what I've read her opposition to homeopathy is undocumented, but either way her results were unreproducible by the BBC Horizon

 

Have you read her response to that test? You can find it here: http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/media/2020_ennis.php

 

She notes a number of very serious problems with the BBC test.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised that you would take an experiment done for a television show all that seriously. The study wasn't peer-reviewed before being broadcast.

 

 

My problem with "chi" is that it is claimed as the end explanation for a large variety of phenomenon, an I'm saying "look, chi is a temporary blanket term for what early eastern cultures didn't understand, let's dig deeper and find out what's really causing this phenomena."

 

I have to agree with you to an extent. When I talk about chi, I usually append it with "for lack of a better term." However, I do have to agree with certain aspects of the Asian conception. This "variety of phenomena" seems to have a common cause. I realize that this certainly wouldn't be enough to convince a scientist, but I, and others who have worked with chi, feel (or at least report feeling, in the case of others, though I don't see any reason to doubt that they feel what they say they feel) like we're using the same "force" or "energy" in effecting these different results.

[Grandpa Harley]

Just to help you out, the Irish study was run by Madeleine Ennis--someone who staunchly opposed homoeopathy, and ran the study precisely in order to try to disprove it.

 

Well, that was hard, and evidently beyond the wit of mortal man... Now, can someone translate the article to little words... we're dealing with someone who seems unable to get a three word phrase correct.

You must confuse me for a mind-reader if you still insist that I should have found that. I'll spare you the details of my extensive history of internet usage and general research experience levels.

You get paid for it It was so obscure that some one who's "extensive history of internet usage and general research experience levels" couldn't find it, but HadouKen24 did, with no help from me... I notice there is no apology forthcoming on any of the insults you hurled, despite the turn up of positive study results... but then what can one expect of a zealot... After all, if one opens with an insult (you assumed that I'd not evaluated Randi's methods pretty well... as an Ex-Randi fan, I did... up close and personal there it's the Wizard of OZ) one can only expect the manners of a boor...

[Grandpa Harley]

wow, grandpa sure is the little troll isn't he. I never really expected that from browsing this site before except from the occasional hit and run christian, but it just goes to demonstrate that post count has nothing to do with actual contribution huh.. seriously. sorry, not. worth. the. time.

 

Why thank you... but then, the temerity to disagree is never popular to the zealot... I was particularly impressed on the follow up work you did on the Horizon/Nova/ABC 'rebuttal' that, if proper experimental controls were in place, would have not a produced mast cell de-granulation if the undiluted principal was added to the blood... It should have been established that the sample WAS active.... not to do so just makes it TV junk science... not exactly impressive on your part, is it? After all it's all on Google... nowhere obscure...

 

And of course I'm not worth the time... I think pretty low of you... Tell me, what did you ever bring to the game?

[trashy]

You get paid for it It was so obscure that some one who's "extensive history of internet usage and general research experience levels" couldn't find it, but HadouKen24 did, with no help from me... I notice there is no apology forthcoming on any of the insults you hurled, despite the turn up of positive study results... but then what can one expect of a zealot... After all, if one opens with an insult (you assumed that I'd not evaluated Randi's methods pretty well... as an Ex-Randi fan, I did... up close and personal there it's the Wizard of OZ) one can only expect the manners of a boor...

First, I did apologize for my initial condescension. Did you not see it? But I re-read all my posts in this thread and the only insults I found were yours. Seriously. And I guess zealotry is in the eye of the beholder because I could just as easily say "what can one expect of a zealot" regarding your posts in this thread. And frankly, if we're just both going to continue to 'hurl insults' and accuse each other of zealotry I can see no reason to continue any sort of dialogue. I'd rather go argue evolution with a creationist.

[Grandpa Harley]

Link to the apology.

[NotBlinded]

When you take Aristotle's four areas of cause, science usually pushes aside the formal, or formative, and final cause when trying to explain origins (without a carpenter!). Only the material and efficient causes can be studied by science which gives only a description rather than an explanation.

Fantastic NBBTB! If I didn't know better I would say that you've been reading some of Rosen's work. He predicted that a shift would occur in the sciences from a concetration on material and efficient causes towards a concentration on formal and final causes.

 

Of course the best way to predict the future is to create it. And Rosen, being the ardent biologist that he was, took some steps in the direction of that shift.

 

I am becoming ever more convinced that an understanding of the organic world will expose the weakness inherent in a purely mechanistic picture. As my understanding grows I look forward to a time when I will be able to both declare and expain why, I am not a machine.

You know, I think I'm gonna like that guy!

 

But, one thing that I have seen happen is that the more I understand, the less I am able to explain with any measurable amount of coherency! Oh, the horrible irony! It seems to fall apart when wholeness is taken into consideration. It's trying to unite something that is deemed impossible to something that can't be possible without it!

[Legion]

But, one thing that I have seen happen is that the more I understand, the less I am able to explain with any measurable amount of coherency! Oh, the horrible irony! It seems to fall apart when wholeness is taken into consideration. It's trying to unite something that is deemed impossible to something that can't be possible without it!

I understand what your saying here NBBTB. I don't really feel that I understand a thing unless I can also explain it to someone else. I used to be as reductionistic as you can imagine. I thought it was all atoms and the void. But as I have come into an awareness that this picture lacks something vital, it is difficult to explain why.

 

But I'm not done yet, and I hope you aren't either. I hope that eventually you will be be able to crisply describe unity, wholeness, and connectedness in a way that will even convince the skeptic.

 

Best of luck to you in your journey.

[NotBlinded]

Link to the apology.

Here it is GH.

 

I'm not going to get involved here with you guys, but I'm pretty sure you all will work it out.

[NotBlinded]

But, one thing that I have seen happen is that the more I understand, the less I am able to explain with any measurable amount of coherency! Oh, the horrible irony! It seems to fall apart when wholeness is taken into consideration. It's trying to unite something that is deemed impossible to something that can't be possible without it!

I understand what your saying here NBBTB. I don't really feel that I understand a thing unless I can also explain it to someone else. I used to be as reductionistic as you can imagine. I thought it was all atoms and the void. But as I have come into an awareness that this picture lacks something vital, it is difficult to explain why.

 

But I'm not done yet, and I hope you aren't either. I hope that eventually you will be be able to crisply describe unity, wholeness, and connectedness in a way that will even convince the skeptic.

 

Best of luck to you in your journey.

That was the most wonderful thing you could have said Legion! I think we shared a journey somewhere along the way...

 

And, the best to you too!

[Grandpa Harley]

Discuss with someone who opens with an insult to my intelligence? I'd sooner plunge heated needles into my eyes... and I called you the Texas Trash Can... Please get the insults correct. You think you deserve better, try another window... I dumbed it down especially...

I did not intend to insult you. I apologize for the initial condescending statement.

 

Bugger... missed that. Then it's all my bad. My unreseved apologies for being a complete arse for so long. I'll take more care in future.

[NotBlinded]

Discuss with someone who opens with an insult to my intelligence? I'd sooner plunge heated needles into my eyes... and I called you the Texas Trash Can... Please get the insults correct. You think you deserve better, try another window... I dumbed it down especially...

I did not intend to insult you. I apologize for the initial condescending statement.

 

Bugger... missed that. Then it's all my bad. My unreseved apologies for being a complete arse for so long. I'll take more care in future.

Well, you are a lovable arse once you are understood somewhat!

[Grandpa Harley]

I have apologised privately too...

[Guest Bright]

I once had a dream about the Three Little Bears, and after the dream a deep voice informed me that if I ever told anybody about it, I would die.

 

Why would a ghost threaten you with death if you told anyone about your dream of The Three Bears??? Does schizophrenia run in your family as much as haunted houses do???

 

My mother owned a travel agency for about 20 years, and her office building was also haunted. Neither my sister or I liked to be there late at night. It just didn't feel right, and weird shit went on there, too. When I was there working late at night, it was not unusual for me to hear "work" going on up in the front office - papers being shuffled, muffled voices, etc. Sometimes the phone would ring and I would answer it and there would be nobody there. If I just let it ring, it would never stop.

 

Oh Come On! Now you're telling a tall tale.

 

My family has had stuff happen to them that indicates the reality of a spiritual world too. I'll be happy to relate those events if anybody is interested.

 

YOU MEAN THERE'S MORE!?

[Brother Jeff]

I once had a dream about the Three Little Bears, and after the dream a deep voice informed me that if I ever told anybody about it, I would die.

 

Why would a ghost threaten you with death if you told anyone about your dream of The Three Bears??? Does schizophrenia run in your family as much as haunted houses do???

 

My mother owned a travel agency for about 20 years, and her office building was also haunted. Neither my sister or I liked to be there late at night. It just didn't feel right, and weird shit went on there, too. When I was there working late at night, it was not unusual for me to hear "work" going on up in the front office - papers being shuffled, muffled voices, etc. Sometimes the phone would ring and I would answer it and there would be nobody there. If I just let it ring, it would never stop.

 

Oh Come On! Now you're telling a tall tale.

 

My family has had stuff happen to them that indicates the reality of a spiritual world too. I'll be happy to relate those events if anybody is interested.

 

YOU MEAN THERE'S MORE!?

 

I don't know, but it happened.

 

I happen to be bipolar, but no, mental illness does not run in my family.

 

No, I am not telling a tall tale. I am relating events as they actually happened.

 

Yes, there is more.

[Brother Jeff]

I once had a dream about the Three Little Bears, and after the dream a deep voice informed me that if I ever told anybody about it, I would die.

 

Why would a ghost threaten you with death if you told anyone about your dream of The Three Bears??? Does schizophrenia run in your family as much as haunted houses do???

 

My mother owned a travel agency for about 20 years, and her office building was also haunted. Neither my sister or I liked to be there late at night. It just didn't feel right, and weird shit went on there, too. When I was there working late at night, it was not unusual for me to hear "work" going on up in the front office - papers being shuffled, muffled voices, etc. Sometimes the phone would ring and I would answer it and there would be nobody there. If I just let it ring, it would never stop.

 

Oh Come On! Now you're telling a tall tale.

 

My family has had stuff happen to them that indicates the reality of a spiritual world too. I'll be happy to relate those events if anybody is interested.

 

YOU MEAN THERE'S MORE!?

 

I don't know, but it happened.

 

I happen to be bipolar, but no, mental illness does not run in my family.

 

No, I am not telling a tall tale. I am relating events as they actually happened.

 

Yes, there is more.

[HadouKen24]

Be nice, Bright. Being a jackass isn't going to win you any friends.

[Taphophilia]

I've experienced a few things also. However, I don't view them as supernatural. Just because something occurs that is out of our reason or beyond our understanding doesn't mean it's above and beyond natural. I'm skeptic but I'm open minded. I like possibilities.