Legion Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 The predecessors of modern science, such as Descartes, all presupposed a mechanistic world. I think that this is largely correct HadouKen. But I think that we are beginning to see that the West is slowly waking up to the fact that there is something wrong with the mechanistic picture. Can you provide examples? I can try Vigile. It seems that I am constantly harping about the work of a theoretical biologist named Robert Rosen (see signature line). He argues rather consistently that machines are not rich enough in entailment to capture the quality we call life. He takes great (and formal) pains to demonstrate that living things (organisms) are not machines. I don't yet understand his work, but I continue to plug away at it. But I must also add that he is not a vitalist. He doesn't argue that there is anything unphysical about organisms. Only that they are complex (formal definition) whereas machines are simple no matter how complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 well.. unless they claim animals/non-humans have no "chi"? Well, that's sorted by the (successful) use in the UK of accupuncture on race horses and racing dogs. In China there are ancient paccupuncture charts for horses. In India there are marma therapy charts for elephants and horses. I know of no oriental who claims animals have no chi... I do know any number of Christians who claim animals have no soul (which is a similar conecpt in the Classical thought) As a complete side bar, homoeopathy (one of JREF's real bete noire) has been successfully used in the UK on antibiotic resistant mastitis in cows. Anecdotal, but when the infection clears in 5 herds you're looking at something that is neither the placebo effect( although if a drug caused remission in 10-15% of cancer patients then it would be malpractice not to provide it) nor likely coincidence (since the Ministry of Agriculture had an embargo on milk fromthe affected farms). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Jwing-Ming Yang cites a pretty extensive selection of Chinese language scientific tests on this kind of thing. Of course, it being in Chinese, it doesn't exist.. never happened... and if it did happen it was falsified cos the only science is Western. A bit like Japanese language results on the same sort of thing or French and Australian Clinical trials on the medicinal use of distilled plant oils... Really? Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang? The Shaolin Qin Na teacher? I have several of his books. Quite a lot of Japanese/Chinese scientific research has been carried out in regards to harnessing the use of ki/chi. But it is ignored. As Gramps says, if research isn't carried out by prominant "Western" scientists - it doesn't exist. I recall a Japanese scientific team conducted an experiment with some Tibetan monks back in the early 80's. The monks had their robes soaked, and while sitting in meditation in a small room in the snow, were able to raise their body temperature and dry their robes out completely within ten minutes. The whole experiment was recorded and I remember the steam rising from them was quite evident. This experiment and all the data from it was ignored by "Western" scientists until recently. The very same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ho-lee shit! This thread just got interesting again. So much to say, so little time to say it in...... Gramps. I'm a bit surprised at you. But then, I'm always surprised when people manage to use the powers of logic and reason to escape the clutches of religion, only to abandon all logic and reason in some other area (ghosts, homeopathy, chi, dowsing, etc.) The telltale sign (in my limited experience) is when they begin to rant against James Randi. Randi's crime seems to be that of holding all things to the same standard. Specifically, testing involving control groups and the double-blind method. I guess a good place to start is to ask for a link to where this mastitis was cured in 5 herds. No, not an article in a homeopathy magazine, but a link to the study itself, preferably peer-reviewed, if you would be so kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.god Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 As far a Jun's stuff... being in the same room adds credence. A comparison to David blaine is not credible, unless you're inthe same place. As to whether things are gagged is an open question. My studies of stage illusions goes back to the late 19th Century. I'm dubious of any extraordinary claim that is not backed by extraordinary evidence. This is a reasonable position to take. All I see here are people saying "it's true, I've seen it/experienced it." This is not extraordinary evidence. I will have to agree. When some says, "Well, I saw it happen myself", how is that different than when a friend told me, "God of the bible exists. I talk to him. I've seen too many things that can not be explained." or that "god speaks thru me when I speak in tongues"? Also, if chi really exists as is claimed, and these asian martial artists have taken years to master it.. what is it that Derren Brown is doing in the no-touch punch? He doesn't claim extraodinary powers of chi. Or what he does in his "Instant conversion" segment of Messiah, when he causes the volunteers to fall backwards? How about in those mass tv evangelist healings, those preachers often don't need to touch their victims as they fall backwards either. Has god endowed them with the power of chi? Seriously, looking at all these videos in such a close space of time, from the many martial art chi no-touch punch masters, hypnosis videos and tv evangelist videos, there is one thing in common. The victims always slump backwards in the same manner. A sudden softening and collapsing of the joints as their head slumps forward, and their bodies crumple backwards into the waiting arms of the people who catch them. Another common thread is that in all situations there is an "authority" figure (martial arts master, hypnotist, preacher), willing subjects/victims there for a specific purpose, and an audience of people who may often be unfamiliar (as in not close friends or family) to the subjects. Performance anxiety anyone? lol One thing I have learned from reading the testimonials on this site is that people can feel the pressure to conform in even the smallest of group setting situations - whether it be suddenly breaking out and speaking in tongues or writhing in the aisles. Watch a few hypnosis video and you will see people quack like a duck, start stripping off clothing and a variety of other amusing actions. Notice also how the hypnosis subjects will slump into states of half-consciousness, their bodies limp and suggestible. Their faces not much different from the half confused, reactionless stares of the no-touch punch victims. Or perhaps I am seeing commonalities where there are none and the only reasonable conclusion I must draw is that hypnotists, evangelists and martial artists have actually all been channeling the invisible power of chi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jun Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.god Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 oh when oh when will i get an 'edit post' ability? or where can i atone for my typos galore The predecessors of modern science, such as Descartes, all presupposed a mechanistic world. I think that this is largely correct HadouKen. But I think that we are beginning to see that the West is slowly waking up to the fact that there is something wrong with the mechanistic picture. Can you provide examples? I can try Vigile. It seems that I am constantly harping about the work of a theoretical biologist named Robert Rosen (see signature line). He argues rather consistently that machines are not rich enough in entailment to capture the quality we call life. He takes great (and formal) pains to demonstrate that living things (organisms) are not machines. I don't yet understand his work, but I continue to plug away at it. But I must also add that he is not a vitalist. He doesn't argue that there is anything unphysical about organisms. Only that they are complex (formal definition) whereas machines are simple no matter how complicated. I don;'t quite understand, does the west still think that a biological creature can be completely replicated by a machine? Mechanical portions of a body, such a the complex system of levers, ball and sockets, with it's association of muscles yes. But our capability for self repair, or the complexities of our nervous system or gray matter? Even in the field of AI, I don't believe fuzzy logic and neural networks begin to approximate that of our bodies. Although there is an interesting experiment going on with the neural network that's been setup with the pathways of a mouse brain. It should be interesting to see how that develops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.god Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4 hmm, that was pretty impressive.. until the end where he starts talking about the alternating toes?! wtf... what is homeopathy?? i know i see that stuff a lot in places like whole foods. off to wiki i suppose... does an edit feature exist on this site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ho-lee shit! This thread just got interesting again. So much to say, so little time to say it in...... Gramps. I'm a bit surprised at you. But then, I'm always surprised when people manage to use the powers of logic and reason to escape the clutches of religion, only to abandon all logic and reason in some other area (ghosts, homeopathy, chi, dowsing, etc.) The telltale sign (in my limited experience) is when they begin to rant against James Randi. Randi's crime seems to be that of holding all things to the same standard. Specifically, testing involving control groups and the double-blind method. I guess a good place to start is to ask for a link to where this mastitis was cured in 5 herds. No, not an article in a homeopathy magazine, but a link to the study itself, preferably peer-reviewed, if you would be so kind. I said it was anecdotal... about 10 years ago on the BBC... If you want to find it, go dig. James Randi is not a scientist, he's an indifferent stage magician who's found a better earner than cabaret. He is, having followed his career from the mid 1970s the Inquisition to Nature's Jesuits. If you want to kiss Iron Rod's ass as a matter of faith, then go to it my man. I'm skeptical (sic) of all Zealots no matter their stripe. And my patience was exhausted with the fact you can never pin a Randi-ite down a long time ago. Long on ex-cathedra statements and short of unequivocal evidence. The broad brush, varying standards of proof ,and generally arrogant fuckpigs, wholly lacking in manners, with the charm of a pipe bomb enema. BTW, I can usually spot the Religious Sceptic by the pulling of 'Double Blind' comment. It's like a crucifix in a vampire movie. How many surgical procedures does Randi hold to that sort of standard? After all, to do that you'd have to mutilate patients. There's not universal animal testing in surgery, so double blind that... It's not a universal standard... and peer review in academia? It's mostly about protecting grants and the status quo... Haldeman (a man who well knew academic 'method') said there is a 30 year lag in physics between a new discovery and it becoming mainstream due to have to wait for the old guard to die. It's pretty much the same over the lot. So prove the Chinese wrong on Chi or the Irish studies that set out to prove Homeopathy 'wrong' and failed, much to the annoyance of the woman in charge... or would that involve actually doing something than sitting on your fat Jesuit arse? Hmmm? After all, if I can read the studies, you can find them the same way I did (it's called hard work) and make your own mind up... I don't say I believe the model they apply, but by the by the same token, I don't believe the string model works the way it appears to (also an act of faith and far from universally accepted, since it's not detectable and the math doesn't always work... rather like Special and General Relativity or Newton's 'Laws' of Motion... ) So, go read... It's what I did... also dropped e-mails when I wasn't happy with something or even, heaven forbid, wrote a letter... And your mother smells of wee and wears combat boots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4 hmm, that was pretty impressive.. until the end where he starts talking about the alternating toes?! wtf... what is homeopathy?? i know i see that stuff a lot in places like whole foods. off to wiki i suppose... does an edit feature exist on this site? I think you get editing capabilities after a certain number of posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 As far a Jun's stuff... being in the same room adds credence. A comparison to David blaine is not credible, unless you're inthe same place. As to whether things are gagged is an open question. My studies of stage illusions goes back to the late 19th Century. I'm dubious of any extraordinary claim that is not backed by extraordinary evidence. This is a reasonable position to take. All I see here are people saying "it's true, I've seen it/experienced it." This is not extraordinary evidence. I will have to agree. When some says, "Well, I saw it happen myself", how is that different than when a friend told me, "God of the bible exists. I talk to him. I've seen too many things that can not be explained." or that "god speaks thru me when I speak in tongues"? Also, if chi really exists as is claimed, and these asian martial artists have taken years to master it.. what is it that Derren Brown is doing in the no-touch punch? He doesn't claim extraodinary powers of chi. Or what he does in his "Instant conversion" segment of Messiah, when he causes the volunteers to fall backwards? How about in those mass tv evangelist healings, those preachers often don't need to touch their victims as they fall backwards either. Has god endowed them with the power of chi? Seriously, looking at all these videos in such a close space of time, from the many martial art chi no-touch punch masters, hypnosis videos and tv evangelist videos, there is one thing in common. The victims always slump backwards in the same manner. A sudden softening and collapsing of the joints as their head slumps forward, and their bodies crumple backwards into the waiting arms of the people who catch them. Another common thread is that in all situations there is an "authority" figure (martial arts master, hypnotist, preacher), willing subjects/victims there for a specific purpose, and an audience of people who may often be unfamiliar (as in not close friends or family) to the subjects. Performance anxiety anyone? lol One thing I have learned from reading the testimonials on this site is that people can feel the pressure to conform in even the smallest of group setting situations - whether it be suddenly breaking out and speaking in tongues or writhing in the aisles. Watch a few hypnosis video and you will see people quack like a duck, start stripping off clothing and a variety of other amusing actions. Notice also how the hypnosis subjects will slump into states of half-consciousness, their bodies limp and suggestible. Their faces not much different from the half confused, reactionless stares of the no-touch punch victims. Or perhaps I am seeing commonalities where there are none and the only reasonable conclusion I must draw is that hypnotists, evangelists and martial artists have actually all been channeling the invisible power of chi. no... there are variuous methods of doing the 'no-touch' punch... from a dismantled taser to a shill in the audience, to auto suggestion. Most involve a gag of some sort. In the end to say X does it this way thus everyone does it this way is specious... the question is, why does auto suggestion work so well... The stage hypnotist is more of a freak show. Mr Brown doesn't say why his snake oil works but it does... and there isn't a known mechanism. 'Entrainment', 'Auto-suggestion', 'mass hysteria' etc all are just words, rather like 'inertia' or 'gravity'... they describe an effect, not a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-x4iJM2aU4 hmm, that was pretty impressive.. until the end where he starts talking about the alternating toes?! wtf... what is homeopathy?? i know i see that stuff a lot in places like whole foods. off to wiki i suppose... does an edit feature exist on this site? I think you get editing capabilities after a certain number of posts I did note the number down... I think its ~100 odd... but hell, I'm drugged out of my head most of the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.god Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I just recalled something that we in the "west" would doubtfully not understand: Korean Fan Death Fan death is an urban legend that originated in South Korea, but has since spread to other countries in the Far East. The belief is that an electric fan, if left running overnight in a closed room, can result in the death (by suffocation, poisoning, or hypothermia) of those inside. This belief also extends to air conditioners and the fans in cars. When the air conditioner or fan is on in a car, some people are apt to leave their car windows open a crack to avoid "fan death." Fans manufactured and sold in Korea are equipped with a timer switch that turns them off after a set number of minutes, which users are frequently urged to set when going to sleep with a fan on. Beliefs The belief in the myth of fan-death often offers several explanations for the precise mechanism by which the fan kills. However, as explained below, these beliefs do not stand up to logical and scientific scrutiny. Examples for possible justifications of belief in fan death are as follows: * That an electric fan creates a vortex, which sucks the oxygen from the enclosed and sealed room and creates a partial vacuum inside. In reality, the air pressure at any point in the room varies less than it does during a storm. * That the fan uses up the oxygen in the room and creates fatal levels of carbon dioxide. There is no actual conversion of oxygen to carbon dioxide happening; unlike a candle, the electric motor in a fan does not alter the chemical composition of the air (apart from creating some ozone if the motor uses brushes, and outgassing from the materials). * That if the fan is put directly in front of the face of the sleeping person, it will suck all the air away, preventing one from breathing. However, as can be easily verified, it is possible to breathe with one's face in front of a running fan. * That fanblades chop up air particles (i.e. oxygen molecules) so that the air is no longer breathable, thus resulting in suffocation. If this were true, regular fans could be used to create chemical reactions. However, air ionisers do turn a very small amount of oxygen into unstable ozone.[1] * That fans cause hypothermia. As the metabolism slows down at night, one becomes more sensitive to temperature, and thus supposedly more prone to hypothermia. If the fan is left on all night in a sealed and enclosed room, believers in fan death suppose that it will lower the temperature of the room to the point that it can cause hypothermia. Empirical measurements will show, however, that the temperature in the room does not fall, at least not due to the fan; if at all, it should rise slightly because of friction and the heat output of the fan motor, but even this is generally not significant. Fans actually make one cooler by increasing the convection around a person's body so that heat flows from them to the air more easily, and by the latent heat of vapourisation as perspiration evaporates from the body. Furthermore, hypothermia occurs only when the body's core temperature drops below normal, and will not generally be caused simply by cooling of the skin or decrease in the body's surface temperature. * Often, believers claim that a combination of these factors is responsible. For example, it might be claimed that the decrease in oxygen and increase in carbon dioxide, in conjunction with some degree of hypothermia, could prove fatal to a sleeping person. Media coverage The explanation of fan death is accepted by many Korean medical professionals. In summer, mainstream Korean news sources regularly report on cases of fan death. A typical example is this excerpt from the July 28, 1997, edition of the Korea Herald, an English-language newspaper: The heat wave which has encompassed Korea for about a week, has generated various heat-related accidents and deaths. At least 10 people died from the effects of electric fans which can remove oxygen from the air and lower body temperatures... On Friday in eastern Seoul, a 16-year-old girl died from suffocation after she fell asleep in her room with an electric fan in motion. The death toll from fan-related incidents reached 10 during the past week. Medical experts say that this type of death occurs when one is exposed to electric fan breezes for long hours in a sealed area. "Excessive exposure to such a condition lowers one's temperature and hampers blood circulation. And it eventually leads to the paralysis of heart and lungs," says a medical expert. "To prevent such an accident, one should keep the windows open and not expose oneself directly to fan air," he advised. When informed that the phenomenon is virtually unheard of outside of their country, some Koreans have suggested that their unique physiology renders them susceptible to fan death (despite the fact that people of Korean ancestry born outside Korea who have never heard of this phenomenon sleep with fans on and do not suffer any ill effects). Published professional opinion * Dr. Yeon Dong-su, dean of Kwandong University's medical school in South Korea. Many people say that these victims die from lack of oxygen, but that is not true. Hypothermia does not only occur in the winter when it is cold. The symptoms can also take place if a person has been drinking and turns on a fan in a closed room. Most people wake up when they feel cold, but if you are drunk you will not wake up, even if your body temperature drops below 35 degrees Celsius, at which point you can die from hypothermia. It doesn't matter so much about the temperature of the room. If it is completely sealed, then in the current of an electric fan, the temperature can drop low enough to cause a person to die of hypothermia. —Dr. Yeon Dong-su Note: It is likely that the symptoms discussed by this doctor are actually due to excessive alcohol consumption, which can decrease body temperature. See, for example: [2] * Gord Giesbrecht, a physical education professor at the University of Manitoba in Canada, is a leading expert on hypothermia. It's hard to imagine death by fan, because to die of hypothermia, one's body temperature would have to get down to 28 [°C], drop by 10 degrees [Celsius] overnight. We've got people lying in snowbanks overnight here in Winnipeg and they survive. Maybe if someone was elderly and they were sitting there for three days in a sealed room with an electric fan turned on. Someone is not going to die from hypothermia because their body temperature drops two or three degrees overnight; it would have to drop eight to 10 degrees." In addition, "the only way to verify whether someone had really died of hypothermia during the night would be to take a core body temperature the following morning. Waiting three days while the body was in the morgue wouldn't work because the corpse's temperature can drop during that time. —Gord Giesbrecht [3] * Dr. John Linton at Yonsei's Severance Hospital, who attended medical school at Yonsei University, is the only non-Korean licensed to practice medicine in South Korea.[3] There are several things that could be causing the fan deaths, things like pulmonary embolisms, cerebrovascular accidents or arrhythmia. There is little scientific evidence to support that a fan alone can kill you if you are using it in a sealed room. Although it is a common belief among Koreans, there are other explainable reasons for why these deaths are happening. —Dr. John Linton * Dr. Lee Yoon-song is a professor at Seoul National University's medical school and works with the school's Institute of Scientific Investigation. He has conducted autopsies on some of the people who have been described in Korean media as having succumbed to fan death. When someone's body temperature drops below 35 degrees, they do start to lose judgment ability. So if someone was hiking and later found dead, that could be part of the reason. But we can't really apply this to fan accidents. I found most of the victims already had some sort of disease like heart problems or serious alcoholism. So hypothermia is not the main reason for death, but it may contribute. —Dr. Lee Yoon-song * Dr. Lee Yoon-song blamed the Korean media for the persistence of the urban legend. Korean reporters are constantly writing inaccurate articles about death by fan, describing these deaths as being caused by the fan. That's why it seems that fan deaths only happen in Korea, when in reality these types of deaths are quite rare. They should have reported the victim's original defects such as heart or lung disease, which are the main cause of death in these cases. If a Western doctor investigated these deaths, he would say what really caused the death, and say that a fan was beside the victim. —Dr. Lee Yoon-song Mayhap I can google up some korean scientific studies (conducted in south korea of course seeing as it happens nowhere else), that support this unusual affliction as well? A cultural belief can be widely held and propagated, but does it follow that therefore it must be true? Is there something to fan-death after all? I fear for the poor japanese with their tiny enclosed rooms when the affliction should reach them! Being asian, one thing I do know is that while many east asians may not subscribe to judeo-christian religion, they are a hell lot more superstitious. And not following the superstitions of the society can often cause you to become ostracized from the rest of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 headed to work - I am all antsy and giddy with anticipation - but can't reply for awhile. Git yer readin' glasses ready... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 "Or perhaps I am seeing commonalities where there are none and the only reasonable conclusion I must draw is that hypnotists, evangelists and martial artists have actually all been channeling the invisible power of chi." Actually, Mesmer thought he was projecting some sort of extrinsic force. The Chinese in their studies have found in 'Chi' projection there ia an emission of Infrasound and a complex low frequency electric fields not normally found. Additionally, there have been western studies where infrasound and low frequency electrical fields have been used to alter perceptions in test subjects, inducing collapse, blind panic, creeping paranoia and even the feeling of being pushed... so, maybe some are... As I said, the assumption that there is only one way to do anything is pretty much a mistaken belief (article of faith). There are a few hundred ways to make a single coin vanish in stage magic... and I know no two illusionists who do the 'same' technique the same way... To me, the inductive reasoning as proof is a little too like Theology for comfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I just recalled something that we in the "west" would doubtfully not understand: Korean Fan Death Mayhap I can google up some korean scientific studies (conducted in south korea of course seeing as it happens nowhere else), that support this unusual affliction as well? A cultural belief can be widely held and propagated, but does it follow that therefore it must be true? Is there something to fan-death after all? I fear for the poor japanese with their tiny enclosed rooms when the affliction should reach them! Being asian, one thing I do know is that while many east asians may not subscribe to judeo-christian religion, they are a hell lot more superstitious. And not following the superstitions of the society can often cause you to become ostracized from the rest of society. Can you though? It seems that the Wiki is just a news article cut and pasted in... Rather like this one October 22, 2003 No.593 Panic in Khartoum: Foreigners Shake Hands, Make Penises Disappear During September 2003, mass hysteria spread through Khartoum, the capital of Sudan, which was ultimately quelled by police intervention and statements made by the health minister. The panic was caused by rumors of foreigners roaming the city and shaking men's hands, making their penises disappear. The rumors were spread rapidly by text messages on cellular phones, and diverted the public's attention from a breakthrough in negotiations in Kenya between Sudanese Vice President Ali Othman and SPLA leader John Garang. [1] Several versions of the story circulated and not all involved foreigners: Initially, it was claimed that the perpetrators belonged to a Sudanese tribe; according to another version, one West African man was responsible; later, the one man was replaced in the rumor with a group of West Africans. Al-Quds Al-Arabi correspondent Kamal Hassan Bakhit, who was the first to report on the affair outside Sudan, wrote that "the source of the horror is a foreign citizen from a West African country who is roaming through the city marketplace and draining men's virility via a handshake" and that "people are refusing to shake hands with anyone they don't know." Bakhit reported that police had received numerous complaints about someone called 'Satan's Friend,' and that they had launched an investigation and arrested a foreigner who had in his possession scarves, books on sorcery, and two million Sudanese pounds (about $1,500). [2] The following are excerpts from articles which discussed the issue: Victims Tell Their Stories Two of the "victims" agreed to tell their story to the London-based Arabic daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi. One of them, fabric merchant S. K. A., said that a man from a West African tribe came into his shop to buy fabric, but an argument quickly developed between the two. Then the West African shook the store owner's hand powerfully until the owner felt his penis melt into his body. The store owner became hysterical, and was taken to the hospital. [3] While the majority of accounts involved handshaking, another victim, who refused to give his name, said that while he was at the market, a man approached him, gave him a comb, and asked him to comb his hair. When he did so, within seconds, he said, he felt a strange sensation and discovered that he had lost his penis. It was also claimed that once "'Satan's Friend' drains a man's virility," he demands that his victim pay him over four million Sudanese pounds (about $3,000) to get it back. [4] Police Investigate, Government Steps In The Sudanese, unsure how to handle the affair, arrested 40 people who filed complaints along with some 50 other people on suspicion of sorcery and fraud. Many West Africans were brought into police stations for questioning, amid attempts by groups of people to assault them. The police were forced to devote a great deal of effort to dispersing rioters. The country's top politicians and health officials stepped in to try to calm things down. Attorney-General Salah Abu Zayed said that all complaints had been brought before a special investigative committee and that the first claimant would be tried for disturbing the peace since doctors had determined that he was perfectly healthy. [5] However, another report said that those who filed complaints were suffering from "neurosis" and "suggestion." [6] High-ranking policewoman Dr. Nour Al-Huda said: "We met with the suspects and discovered that they were in fact the victims. They were accused of something they knew nothing about... One of the accused had been informed by his wife that his daughter was suffering from sharp pains and that she was going to be operated on. He rushed to the hospital, but on the way stopped to ask a man where the operating room was – and was surprised to discover that this man was accusing him of being one of those who were causing impotence via handshakes. He found himself under suspicion at a time when he was hurrying to reach his daughter in the operating room… "In our opinion, what is at issue is not sorcery or magic. The many young men who complained were under the influence of suggestion. Since they were prepared [mentally] for this to happen, they honestly felt that they were ill." Prominent Sudanese psychiatrist Prof. Taha Ba'asher said that the phenomenon was similar to cases of women who imagined themselves to be pregnant. [7] Dispelling the Rumors Chief Criminal Attorney-General Yasser Ahmad Muhammad told the Sudanese daily Al-Rai Al-A'am that "the rumor broke out when one merchant went to another merchant to buy some Karkady [a Sudanese beverage]. Suddenly, the seller felt his penis shriveling as a result of sorcery. It was the first complaint regarding the matter. Afterwards, the matter reached the media and this caused sensitivity among many." He added that all the persons who filed complaints were sent to the hospital. In all cases, the medical reports said that their penises were normal and that they suffered no atrophy or pain. "Twenty percent came the next day to court and withdrew their complaints, claiming that they had recuperated. But some of them persisted with the charges." Sudanese Health Minister Ahmad Bilal Othman said that the hospital directors had reported to him, in an emergency session on September 23, that no cases of impotence with the aforementioned background had been admitted to the hospitals. He said that the phenomenon was "scientifically" groundless, and that it was sorcery, magic, or an emotional problem. [8] The pundits paid a great deal of attention to the issue. Al-Rai Al-A'am published cartoons on the subject; one showed a man extending a prosthetic hand to shake hands with another man and saying, "Prevention is better than cure," [9] and another one showing a man with both hands amputated telling a friend, "Thank God, I don't shake anyone's hand and no one shakes mine." [10] In the Press Dr. Abd Al-Latif Al-Buni wrote in the Sudanese newspaper Al-Sahafa that the lessons of the affair could be extrapolated to Sudanese politics: "The situation has reached the point where a wife accompanying her husband to the front door at home bids him farewell by saying, 'Be careful not to shake hands with men, but you can shake the girls' hands as much as you want.'… Out of fear of losing him, she has agreed to share [her husband with other women], even if this is a forced partnership. The same goes for the peace [negotiations] underway in Kenya. There must be concessions so that we do not lose Sudan altogether. If the wife conceded to her husband and allowed him to approach others of her gender, then the politicians can forgo political gain." 11 Ja'far Abbas, a Sudanese columnist living abroad, expounded further on the matter in two articles, one in the Saudi daily Al-Watan and the other in Al-Rai Al-A'am. In his Al-Watan article, Abbas wrote: "Even though what I write today will harm 'tourism' in Sudan, I consider it my duty to warn anyone who wants to come to Sudan to refrain from shaking hands with a dark-skinned man. Since most Sudanese are dark-skinned, he had better avoid shaking hands with anyone he doesn't know…" Focusing on the report of the Sudanese man who lost his penis after contact with a comb, Abbas wrote: "No doubt, this comb was a laser-controlled surgical robot that penetrates the skull [and passes] to the lower body and emasculates a man!! "I wanted to tell that man who fell victim to the electronic comb: 'You jackass, how can you put a comb from a man you don't know to your head, while even relatives avoid using the same comb?!'" It Is a Zionist Plot In conclusion Abbas wrote: "That man, who, as it is claimed, is from West Africa, is an imperialist Zionist agent that was sent to prevent our people from procreating and multiplying…" 12 In his Al-Rai Al-A'am article, Abbas wrote: "I had planned to visit Sudan over the Id Al-Fitr holiday, and I saved as many dollars as I could for this purpose… But I heard and read about 'Satan's Friend' who shakes your hand and then you discover suddenly that you're 'not a man.' Is it conceivable that a reasonable man would choose to visit a city gripped by the horror of castration?!… "I pay [taxes] to the government, I bring money to my family [from abroad], and then I also need to pay a man who robs me of the thing I hold most dear and demands that I buy my stolen goods [back from] him?... "…Our women dominate in public services and university classes. [in my opinion], men in Sudan today have a right to found an Association for the Rights of Sudanese Men; all that remains of our masculinity are our most prominent biological features, and now someone wants to rob us of them!" Abbas wrote about the "comb incident" in this article as well: "What will probably lead me, nevertheless, to proceed with my daring plan to visit Sudan is that one of the men whose 'equipment' was confiscated said that the confiscation occurred when one of them gave him a comb and asked him to comb his hair… That is, we are not speaking of coercion. The victim could have refused to comb his hair. "If I ever meet this beast, I will ask him how he could put someone else's comb to his head!!! It is true that we are a crazy people, [and] 10 of us use the same towel, and every home has several combs. But, alas, [the combs] are all disappearing, and all that remains is one comb, dripping grease, used by all. But this usually happens within the family. That is, we do not usually use the combs of people we do not know, except at the barber! "Let none of you claim that you can guard against emasculation by avoiding shaking hands with anyone whose appearance indicates he is West African – since it has transpired that the ones who perform these wonders and miracles are West Africans! What does a West African look like? Black? Is there even a single white Sudanese?…" 13 [1] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), September 24, 2003. [2] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), September 22, 2003. [3] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), September 22, 2003. [4] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), September 22, 2003. [5] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), September 23, 2003. [6] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), September 24, 2003. [7] Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (London), October 9, 2003. [8] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), September 24, 2003. [9] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), October 1, 2003. [10] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), September 26, 2003. [11] Al-Sahafa (Sudan), September 23, 2003. [12] Al-Watan (Saudi Arabia), September 24, 2003. [13] Al-Rai Al-A'am (Sudan), September 29, 2003. quite what mass hysteria has to do with it is beyond me... Am I seeing inductive rather than empirical reasoning? The wwest has these sort of Urban Legend type panics too... Bogus Social Workers? Some are real but this one is almost a MIB type story form the 1960s updated... they usually come in waves. It's an on off study area of mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I said it was anecdotal... about 10 years ago on the BBC... If you want to find it, go dig. Ah, yes you did. My bad. But you err in presuming I had not already 'dug' for that study. I asked you for a link after not finding any results. James Randi is not a scientist, he's an indifferent stage magician who's found a better earner than cabaret. LOL - wow, what a news flash! He's not a scientist! Shit, now we can't quote non-scientists. Damn.... He is, having followed his career from the mid 1970s the Inquisition to Nature's Jesuits. OK, so you have a major problem with Randi. I got it. <lots of anti-Randi rant snipped> BTW, I can usually spot the Religious Sceptic by the pulling of 'Double Blind' comment. It's like a crucifix in a vampire movie. How many surgical procedures does Randi hold to that sort of standard? After all, to do that you'd have to mutilate patients. There's not universal animal testing in surgery, so double blind that... It's not a universal standard First, I'll have to ask what you mean by 'Religious Skeptic' - I presume you mean someone who exhibits a 'fundy' type of zealotry in regards to skepticism? If so, I really don't see what this has to do with the double blind method. It's simply a rather important part of the overall scientific method. So prove the Chinese wrong on Chi or the Irish studies that set out to prove Homeopathy 'wrong' and failed, much to the annoyance of the woman in charge... or would that involve actually doing something than sitting on your fat Jesuit arse? Hmmm? Speaking of having a religious attitude toward something......wow........ Seriously, you remind me of a Creationist rabidly arguing against evolution and throwing out blurbs - "well what about that Irish study, huh? HUH?" After all, if I can read the studies, you can find them the same way I did (it's called hard work) and make your own mind up... I would SO LOVE to read these studies. But I will again ask for a link as Google is failing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Your anti-Randi rant or mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I just recalled something that we in the "west" would doubtfully not understand: Korean Fan Death Dear .God..... Thank you, thank you, THANK you for that link! It is utterly fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 "Seriously, you remind me of a Creationist rabidly arguing against evolution and throwing out blurbs - "well what about that Irish study, huh? HUH?"" QED Thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Your anti-Randi rant or mine? that would be *yours* - While not a JREF member, I have no particular beef with Randi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I have no problem with him as an illusionist, the problem is more him being pulled out as some sort of benchmark, when his stock in trade is largely intimidation and frequently loudly trumpeted inaccuracy and barely audible retraction (again, a competent Google user could find this) BTW, I found a the report of the Irish study, thus I'd suggest either you didn't look or didn't do it very well... ho hum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 I have no problem with him as an illusionist, the problem is more him being pulled out as some sort of benchmark, when his stock in trade is largely intimidation and frequently loudly trumpeted inaccuracy and barely audible retraction (again, a competent Google user could find this) BTW, I found a the report of the Irish study, thus I'd suggest either you didn't look or didn't do it very well... ho hum... And STILL you provide no link. I can't decide if you're being stubborn or defensive. Specifically, I searched Google looking for what you referred to in a previous post: the Irish studies that set out to prove Homeopathy 'wrong' and failed, much to the annoyance of the woman in charge... So I searched Google for 'homeopathic study Ireland' and ' "homeopathic study" +Ireland' and several other variants. I didn't see any links to a study done in Ireland regarding homeopathy. I did find a BBC report which I found astonishing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...set/4454856.stm What I found astonishing was not the results, but the methodology of the study. They asked people "how do you feel" and a lot of them reported that they felt better. Has no one in the U.K. ever heard of the 'placebo effect'? I also found the web site http://irishhomeopaths.com and I searched for the word 'study' and found references to the Lancet study and the Bristol 'how do you feel' study. So - do I have to provide further proof to you that I 'did some work' before you'll provide a link or does this link just not exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 update - are you referring to Dr. Alva Irish? C'mon dude, YOU are the homeopathy proponent here - you could have mentioned it was a person not a country. Still - I can't find where this person was ever a doubter of homeopathy, nor of any study she performed attempting to disprove it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HadouKen24 Posted May 25, 2007 Share Posted May 25, 2007 Ho-lee shit! This thread just got interesting again. So much to say, so little time to say it in...... Gramps. I'm a bit surprised at you. But then, I'm always surprised when people manage to use the powers of logic and reason to escape the clutches of religion, only to abandon all logic and reason in some other area (ghosts, homeopathy, chi, dowsing, etc.) I suppose some of us are too skeptical to take scientific dogma at face value. Honestly, I don't see how any can look at science without a hefty grain of salt, if they have anything like an adequate understanding of the history and philosophy of science. Thomas Kuhn dealt the death blow to the idea that science is "objective," though even earlier thinkers like Nietzsche presented strong arguments against it. Science has always presumed, in the name of reason and logic, to say that things like ghosts don't work, and that there is no such thing as ESP. Unfortunately, it never followed its own method in doing so. It is only in the last fifty years that we are beginning to see real work done in these subjects, and it has faced a great deal of opposition, not from a standpoint of rational neutrality, but from the untested assumption that such things simply don't happen. The telltale sign (in my limited experience) is when they begin to rant against James Randi. Randi's crime seems to be that of holding all things to the same standard. Specifically, testing involving control groups and the double-blind method. I've never heard anyone criticize Randi for that. I've heard them criticize him for his insulting attitude, for misleading or blatantly incorrect statements (i.e., lying), for his fraudulent million dollar prize competition, and on and on. But I don't believe I've ever heard anyone criticize him for the use of control groups and the double blind method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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