Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 This was brought up in another topic, and it was kind of intriguing. The question is: Does dogs, and/or other animals, have a soul, self awareness, ego etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I believe so yes, A life force of some sort. Egos, absolutely they are (Dogs) protective, loyal, and have personalities. Some passive others aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 They are sentient at the bare minimum. Japedo is right, they do exhibit behaviour, react, have likes and dislikes. They can't grasp cooking or driving, but that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent on some level. They certainly deserve humane treatment at the bare minimum. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antihero Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Soul? Don't think so (but neither do humans). Ego, on the other hand? Just ask my cat. If it decides to take precious time out of its day long cleaning ritual, it may deign to tell you. Or it might just demand food from its slaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 Cats have lots of ego, which I have noticed! I saw a documentary about a gorilla that showed that they possess love and disguise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 This reminds me of an interesting exchange from Zach's appearance on the Narrow Mind... http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2004/07/live-debate.php Zachary Moore: That’s not entirely true. Logic can be explained, and reason itself can be explained naturalistically. There is a number of- there’s quite a bit of research in neurology, neuroanatomy that’s really picking apart the way the brain works and we’re discovering, in fact, that just about everything that is unique to humanity, humankind, or the human condition, can be found right within our own skulls. In fact, a lot of the things that you would consider ‘gifts of humanity’ that God gave us: conscience, reasoning, emotion, the ability to use language, fairness- we’re actually beginning to see these in higher primates. A lot of reasoning skills, language skills in gorillas- you’ve heard of Koko the gorilla? She can use sign language, she was taught to use sign language? Very recently, she communicated to the humans that she works with that intends, on her own volition, to teach sign language to her own children, when she has them. Gene Cook: Let me- let me ask you something, Zach. Zach: OK. Gene: Did you see that firsthand? Zach: No, but somebody else did. Gene: OK, but yet, you believe it, don’t you? Zach: Well, I believe it conditionally, unless I can find some way to disprove it. Gene: Well, you’re stating as though it’s fact. I mean, it doesn’t sound like you’re making a conditional statement about the way you believe these things. Granted, if you read or listen to the entire conversation, they spend a lot of time talking about condictions for belief, but it really irked me that Gene immediately attacked Zach's statement about a gorilla expressing an abstract thought through sign language, as though he couldn't stand the idea that an animal would be using a "human gift". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 This reminds me of an interesting exchange from Zach's appearance on the Narrow Mind... http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2004/07/live-debate.php Granted, if you read or listen to the entire conversation, they spend a lot of time talking about condictions for belief, but it really irked me that Gene immediately attacked Zach's statement about a gorilla expressing an abstract thought through sign language, as though he couldn't stand the idea that an animal would be using a "human gift". I actually saw the documentary about the Gorilla. It was very cool. She expressed love and disguise and disappointment, just like a human. She knew 500 words. I can only say that it was really cool. [edit] Oops! I think I repeated myself in this thread, my previous post was kind of the same... Probably I shouldn't jump so much between topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luck Mermaid Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 no they don't. They are made to serve us, God's finest creation. That is all we need to concern ourselves about. P.S. I'm in person-I'd-want-to-slap-in-real-life mode this week. yes Animals have feelings. :Different animals have different wants and needs, and it's sometimes maybe easier for us to understand animals that are more like us psychologically such as those with larger brains, and those with similar neurological and psychological constructs and concepts, like dolphins and whales, and certain primates like orangutangs and chimpanzees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 I think that primates, dogs, cats, elephants, whales, dolphins, and large parrots all have a sense of community and minimum level of self-awareness. I don't know if this means they have a soul, if it means that they are simply more highly evolved brain wise, or if this is simply an example of a greater manifestation of some sort of god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 They are sentient at the bare minimum. Japedo is right, they do exhibit behaviour, react, have likes and dislikes. They can't grasp cooking or driving, but that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent on some level. They certainly deserve humane treatment at the bare minimum. Merlin <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They may not exactly understand driving or cooking per se but many dogs will hang out in the kitchen when cooking is going on, knowing they may get some scraps. Some dogs like to go for ride in cars and others get excited when they hear thier owner's car arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero of Hyrule Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 They are sentient at the bare minimum. Japedo is right, they do exhibit behaviour, react, have likes and dislikes. They can't grasp cooking or driving, but that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent on some level. There was once a horse who could drive a car. it was specialy designed for him, but for some reason he was never allowed on public roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiffany Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 My cat has lot's of soul! I caught her groovin to James Brown once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Soul? Don't think so (but neither do humans). Ego, on the other hand? Just ask my cat. If it decides to take precious time out of its day long cleaning ritual, it may deign to tell you. Or it might just demand food from its slaves Dogs have owners. Cats have staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Dogs have owners. Cats have staff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't I know it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiffany Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 Dogs have owners. Cats have staff. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NimbusBirdMgp Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 ... I've wondered much about if Birds do too. And even insects. (Cause they have a response to fear.) ... Right now where I live the Birds that are the most hedonic and excited about life ... * The Northern Mockingbird ... * The Scrub Jay (I don't have an image for this bird.) ... All I have to do is mimic and mock the Northern Mockingbird and it responds to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 There was once a horse who could drive a car. it was specialy designed for him, but for some reason he was never allowed on public roads. So literally they put the horse behind the cart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 ... I've wondered much about if Birds do too. And even insects. (Cause they have a response to fear.) ... Right now where I live the Birds that are the most hedonic and excited about life ... * The Northern Mockingbird ... * The Scrub Jay (I don't have an image for this bird.) ... All I have to do is mimic and mock the Northern Mockingbird and it responds to me. I heard that some parrots are really smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 15, 2005 Author Share Posted June 15, 2005 I have a little story about bird. Back in Sweden we have crows, just like here, and they’re actually very smart birds. But anyhow, they can be really good in imitating sounds. One day I was at my grandparent’s house, and the phone rang. My grandma went to the phone and picked up, but no one on the other end. Later it rang again, and same thing happened. This kept on going until we figured out that one of the crows had learn how to imitate the ring signal, and was sounding it, and fooled us over and over again. If it did it on purpose or not, I don’t know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 This was brought up in another topic, and it was kind of intriguing. The question is: Does dogs, and/or other animals, have a soul, self awareness, ego etc.? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Putting your predjudices aside, isn't it obvious that animals are self aware? Why would you think they aren't? "Do they have souls" is not answerable unless you define what a soul is. If you mean "soul" in the traditional dualist notion, then we first have to have a discussion to determine whether dualism makes sense. (to save a bit of time I'll provide you the Cliff's notes on that one; it doesn't ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 To answer my own question: First of I believe the word "soul" is just an arbitrary word for consciousness, and not necessarily has any spiritual connotations. I do believe animals have consciousness, and as several posts here made clear, that animals of different kind have consciousness of different levels. It’s like a sliding scale. But it does strike me odd, that when I was Christian, the question didn’t really interest me or it wasn’t of any importance, but now I feel a connection as never before you animals and to living things. Not in the supernatural way or any transcendent way, but just, there is a connection, and animals have certain rights too. I honestly think I’m a better person to take care of this planet after my de-conversion than before. Almost like, as Christian, Earth didn’t really matter, but now our planet is very important. Well, just some thoughts… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathWorship Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 i don't believe animals have souls, and VERY FEW of them have a high enough intelligence to have concious thought. some primates, dolphins, octopi.. these are a few examples of concious thought in animals, i believe most of that thought is purely instinctual, but some can be mildly abstract, not to the point where they can question things though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 i don't believe animals have souls, and VERY FEW of them have a high enough intelligence to have concious thought. some primates, dolphins, octopi.. these are a few examples of concious thought in animals, i believe most of that thought is purely instinctual, but some can be mildly abstract, not to the point where they can question things though.. Well, the Gorilla I saw in the documentary had pretty good skills of expressing emotions and thought. She was self-aware, no doubt about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I do believe animals have consciousness, and as several posts here made clear, that animals of different kind have consciousness of different levels. It’s like a sliding scale. Exactly! Consciousness is not a binary condition. That should be obvious to anyone who has ever dreamed, daydreamed, drank alcohol, did drugs, etc. People walk around with varying degrees of consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentLoner Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Im not sure what the meant defenition of "soul" is here. well, personally, my belief system is pagan based so i have somewhat of a belief in spirits. But I do think all animals are self-aware to some degree. Different degrees yes, but still have it. I was out driving the other day, and I came across a bunch of deer crossing the road. i stopped to let all the deer pass, but there was this one buck who kept staring at me and seemed to scared to finish crossing the street. then there was another deer on the other side of the road that seemed to be waiting for it to come to its side even though all the other deer had left. Finally he finished crossing the street, and when he did the other deer walked up him and placed its head on his neck affectionately. it was such an awesome scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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