Does animals have a soul

[Ouroboros]

Good post S&H.

 

In the article (link in the previous message) they said something interesting. That it's very likely animals have feelings, but what we can't know is if the animal recognize the emotions and can think about them. We don't know if the animal is directly aware of its emotions. And that, I can't tell from my dogs. They feel, but they don't ponder about their feelings.

[Ouroboros]

Self-awareness = being aware of oneself.

 

Most animals have this to a lesser extent, as they don't recognize themselves in mirrors like we do.  That is normally what scientists use to determine self-awareness.

 

IIRC, there was a monkey of some sort who did recognize him/herself in a mirror once.  It was in the news sometime within the past few years.

 

Somehow they must recognize themself in a mirror. I think the mirror image test is a bit faulty and doesn't show awarness like the humans have. We have thoughts and we reason and structure our thought, we plan and act on our planning, and all those things are on a such higher plane than animals.

 

When it comes to the mirrors, I've noticed that dogs doesn' bark or sniff the butt on a mirror dog. At least they know it's fake and not a real dog.

 

Another facinating thing is that dogs can read peoples faces and emotions to an extreme level. I have some experience of dogs somehow immediately, at some distance, can know that I love dogs, and want to come and be patted by me. And there's been instances of other people around that like dogs, but they come to me, because subconsciously they know I will pet them. And it's the first time the dog sees me.

[spamandham]

This is some interesting reading about animal emotions:

 

http://www.earthfireinstitute.org/Articles...al_emotions.htm

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That's an interesting article that gets into ethical treatment of animals. While I agree that animals (at least higher order ones) do have feelings, and I agree they have intelligence to some degree, I don't see how that compels us to act ethically toward them to an extent greater than they act ethically toward us.

 

Ethics are rooted in self preservation. Blanketly applying rights to animals hinders rather than enhances self preservation. I could see an argument for enhancing the status of animals that are pets, but not all animals in general.

[Ouroboros]

It's already been proven animals can express all those different emotions and if speech is required to prove it...the gorilla koko has been taught sign language...she uses sign language CORRECTLY to communicate her wants and needs.  Her communications all make sense in context of what she's saying.  If she requests Ice cream and you give her ice cream she makes an appropriate response. etc.

That's exactly the story I was thinking of.

 

I saw the documentary where she was going to pick out a new mate. The trainer was talking to the gorilla and showing video clips of other gorillas from around the world. The ape would say things like “Don’t like, Ugly” or “No, Messy.”, and “Like him, cute”.

[Ouroboros]

That's an interesting article that gets into ethical treatment of animals.  While I agree that animals (at least higher order ones) do have feelings, and I agree they have intelligence to some degree, I don't see how that compels us to act ethically toward them to an extent greater than they act ethically toward us.

 

Ethics are rooted in self preservation.  Blanketly applying rights to animals hinders rather than enhances self preservation.  I could see an argument for enhancing the status of animals that are pets, but not all animals in general.

No, I agree. I believe we should show more empathy to animals, especially the ones we have as pets. But to work for Animals Liberation and stuff, will complicate things. We can't rewrite all the laws just for this, and if we stop eating meat, it will be harder for us to get the proteins we need.

[Guest Joseph]

Joseph, how do consider a situation where an animal could speak and use words as love and hate?

 

An animal?

 

Be specific, we were discussing dogs.

 

Higher Primates would have a closer relationship to humans.

 

I stick by my statement that conciousness is along a continuum.

 

I also stick by my statement that dogs do not know "love" like a human does.

That does not degrade what they do feel it merely defines it.

Also, this "love" that an animal feels is HIGHLY instinctually regulated, not based upon cognitive thought processes...in other words, the dog would love a "member of the pack" irregardless of treatment at times (even if starving it would show respect to another pack member).

 

Take that to a human level you would realize not being fed and it would greatly affect how you treat the person neglecting you. The smartest dogs never pass a two(-three) year olds cognitive abilities for the most part.

 

Would you still disregard the feelings the animal would express?

 

Again, what animal? Because an ant walks over to a sugar cube or chip I gave it and wiggles at it and then lays down a trail for others to find it does not mean that the ant loves other members of the group nor that it understands.

 

Level of cognition does not devalue what that level is, it merely labels it correctly.

 

Is it that we say animals have no feelings, just because they can't say the words?

 

Never said they do not have feeling/emotions. But language is HIGHLY required for human-type thought, otherwise you would be autistic (many of which think in pictures/video like some animal breeds do).

 

If we were to stick to dogs, then again, what I've said I stand by, a dog doesn't love the same way (nor even come close) to thinking as humans do nor do they have the cognition to have a human type of love...it is "doggie love." Heh.

 

Or is it that we always have considered animals to be so much lover in brain functions, so we can't accept the notion that they would be able to, and then force us to have to take a moral standpoint when it comes to eating them?

 

After seeing such movies as Alive and other "shipwreck" type movies, I have come to the conclusion that our moral standards are relative to the environment alone, and that any moral standard setup to not eat a given protein source is destroyed once that source is the lone source. No matter how smart KoKo gets, she better not be my only source of protein at any given extended moment.

 

Let's say my dogs can't love, at least I know they have strong likings to certain persons or to certain things. To me, love is very blurry word, that even in the human context, has been misused and misunderstood. If love would be defined as a very strong liking to something, then dogs can love something.

 

Again, I'm just trying to relate evolutionary pack mindedness of dogs to that of the development level of humans. And in so doing trying to stress the extreme difference between what "dog love" and "human love" are, and that the two species DO NOT "think" alike what so ever. "Human love" should not even be placed upon a dog, it is not the proper use of the word in my viewpoint.

[Ouroboros]

Well I talked about dogs, and switch to primates too, because the topic is about if animals, not specifically just dogs, have soul etc. Then when we got into emotions I did mention the primate in an earlier posting, before you and I started this sub-thread.

 

Anyway, I think I understand what you're saying, you're not denying that they do have primitive form of emotions, but the level of the emotions they do have can not be fully compared to the level we have. When we speak of human love, we mean many more things than what a dog ever would be able to feel. We love classical music, movies, art, philosophy and many other things, so our love is a heightened kind of love. The dogs have love, but a "sub-set" of the love us humans have.

 

I guess I was seeing it in too extreme polarities, when emotions should be seen in a more "analog" way.

[Hero of Hyrule]

Anyway, I think I understand what you're saying, you're not denying that they do have primitive form of emotions, but the level of the emotions they do have can not be fully compared to the level we have. When we speak of human love, we mean many more things than what a dog ever would be able to feel. We love classical music, movies, art, philosophy and many other things, so our love is a heightened kind of love. The dogs have love, but a "sub-set" of the love us humans have.

I think it'simpossible to say that. I've seen a huge range of emotions in my old dog. One emotion was that when my mother just got a job instead of being at home my dog would turn around when she came home not to see her. She also acted grumpy all the time and she kept one doing that for about a month. I see it as a form of jealousy and anger. She acted normal to my dad (she was older than me so I didn't count) but my mother got snarlss and things like that.

 

Well, anyway since you can't read their expressions as much as with apes and other humans it's easy to say they only have primitive emotions. I say that as long as you don't share a brain you can never really know.

[Kryten]

A few comments unrelated to each other...

 

1. I saw a horse once that could speak english, and it was well documented in a number of episodes. The story must be true because in the documentation they say he (Mr. Ed) is real.

 

2. C.S. Lewis says that only the talking animals/trees have souls, anything else is eligible for the BBQ.

 

3. King Kong died for Koko's sins.

 

4. Koko is in real danger of being killed by some religious extremists.

[Ouroboros]

A few comments unrelated to each other...

 

1. I saw a horse once that could speak english, and it was well documented in a number of episodes.  The story must be true because in the documentation they say he (Mr. Ed) is real.

 

2. C.S. Lewis says that only the talking animals/trees have souls, anything else is eligible for the BBQ.

 

3. King Kong died for Koko's sins.

 

4. Koko is in real danger of being killed by some religious extremists.

 

And I heard stories about talking pigs and wolfs, so it must be true.

[Amethyst]

And I heard stories about talking pigs and wolfs, so it must be true.

 

Not to menton talking snakes...

 

If my gecko says anything other than "squeak" or "hiss", I'll let you know.

[Ouroboros]

Not to menton talking snakes...

 

If my gecko says anything other than "squeak" or "hiss", I'll let you know.

He actually say Squeak and Hiss, not bad!

[spamandham]

Not to menton talking snakes...

 

If my gecko says anything other than "squeak" or "hiss", I'll let you know.

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And let's not forget talking donkeys too!

[Amethyst]

He actually say Squeak and Hiss, not bad!

 

She, unless she's had a sex change I don't know about.