Close-mindedness

[robbie]

Does anyone ever worry they might be as close-minded now as they were in Christianity? As much as I love this site and don't want to leave, I sometimes worry our vehemence against Christianity might make us almost as bad as any dogmatic Christian site, teens-4-christ being the most appaling example I know of. Do you think the group acceptance of being closed off to the idea of Christainity makes us the same but opposite?

[Dhampir]

Do you think the group acceptance of being closed off to the idea of Christainity makes us the same but opposite?

Being open minded does not mean being infinitely credulous. Just because we reject christianity being true doesn't mean one rejects that proof might come along to cause reconsideration.

[RankStranger]

I agree with Damphir... and even though I think Christians are definitely naive (and possibly stupid and/or hypocritical), I don't believe that they deserve eternal damnation or anything of the sort. Doesn't that make me more merciful than your average Christian?

[Kirangel]

I agree with Damphir... and even though I think Christians are definitely naive (and possibly stupid and/or hypocritical), I don't believe that they deserve eternal damnation or anything of the sort. Doesn't that make me more merciful than your average Christian?

 

I know a lot of very intelligent Christians, who are as far away from naivety as you could possibly get. Some ex-Christians are going to be very close minded, it's a human condition.

[Brother Jeff]

I agree with Damphir... and even though I think Christians are definitely naive (and possibly stupid and/or hypocritical), I don't believe that they deserve eternal damnation or anything of the sort. Doesn't that make me more merciful than your average Christian?

 

I know a lot of very intelligent Christians, who are as far away from naivety as you could possibly get. Some ex-Christians are going to be very close minded, it's a human condition.

Come on, now...I have known some otherwise very intelligent Christians too (one of whom was a top chemist at Dow at the time), but these folks honestly believe in the absurd Adam and Eve myth, mythological creatures such as angels and demons, mythological places such as heaven and hell, they believe that their virgin birth myth is literally true, they believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys, a literal six day creation scenario, flying people, magically undead people, and all sorts of other absurdities found in the bible...Sounds pretty naive to me!

 

Sure, these folks may be intelligent, but they don't THINK when it comes to their religious beliefs.

[TheKreativeKat]

Robbie, there are truly fundies both Christian and non who tend to get caught up in being right that they become closed-minded and almost venemous toward the opposing side. Teens-4-christ is a horrible, horrible website. Between that site and the King James Only forum, well, I'll just say the hatred toward those who believe otherwise is frightening. But I've seen that in all places. I had a friend who was raised Catholic and his father was very abusive. Made him attend mass every week and then drank until he beat his two sons and wife the rest of the week. To this day, that young man hates all forms of religion and anyone who adheres to a religious beliefs system because he associates a childhood of abuse and alcoholism with Catholicism. It was sad how a poor upbringing robbed him of so much joy and closed him off to so many possibilities for friendship.

[Kirangel]

I agree with Damphir... and even though I think Christians are definitely naive (and possibly stupid and/or hypocritical), I don't believe that they deserve eternal damnation or anything of the sort. Doesn't that make me more merciful than your average Christian?

 

I know a lot of very intelligent Christians, who are as far away from naivety as you could possibly get. Some ex-Christians are going to be very close minded, it's a human condition.

Come on, now...I have known some otherwise very intelligent Christians too (one of whom was a top chemist at Dow at the time), but these folks honestly believe in the absurd Adam and Eve myth, mythological creatures such as angels and demons, mythological places such as heaven and hell, they believe that their virgin birth myth is literally true, they believe in talking snakes and talking donkeys, a literal six day creation scenario, flying people, magically undead people, and all sorts of other absurdities found in the bible...Sounds pretty naive to me!

 

Sure, these folks may be intelligent, but they don't THINK when it comes to their religious beliefs.

 

 

Well that's a very limited view, you can't place all Christians under one single label since their beliefs do vary. I have never met a Christian who believed in the literal 6 day creation scenario, and with the rest it depends on who you are asking. The ones I am thinking of can give very convincing arguments based on reason and logic as to why they believe what they do... You'd have to be ignorant or naive yourself to think that there are none who put a great deal of thought into what they believe.

[Kurari]

Depends on what we're talking about. I'm pretty closed-minded about a lot of things for good reason. I don't brook a lot of openess to things like racist groups, pedophiles, gay bashers, pro-lifers, or badly cooked carrots.

 

Though I think with Christianity, I'm more inclined to be closed off to certain people like Jerry Falwell, or groups like Westboro Baptist rather than the vague blanketing of "Christians."

 

With 34,000 denominations and no Christian believing exactly the same thing as the next, it'd be rather silly of me to write them all off.

[Amethyst]

Well that's a very limited view, you can't place all Christians under one single label since their beliefs do vary. I have never met a Christian who believed in the literal 6 day creation scenario, and with the rest it depends on who you are asking. The ones I am thinking of can give very convincing arguments based on reason and logic as to why they believe what they do... You'd have to be ignorant or naive yourself to think that there are none who put a great deal of thought into what they believe.

 

 

I grew up in a church with people who honestly believed that stuff. It was Mo. Synod Lutheran. Most of the ones who truly believed it were older, although there were quite a few younger ones who believed it too. My mother also honestly believed in that stuff, though I think she was clutching at it like a teddy bear because she was dying. The guy I shared a cube with for 8 months at my old job was well and truly brainwashed (if you search my threads from last year, you should find my rants about him). Then there are the people like my dad who don't believe most of it and cherry pick what they do believe and go to church for the social life. And there are people who go to church but fake it to fit in because they are afraid not to. I used to be like that. Then I got the courage to quit.

 

But anyway yes, there are people who do literally believe that stuff. I grew up with them.

[Kirangel]

Oh, I'm sure there are I just haven't met them maybe a couple on line but none in real life. I bet my views on Christians would change if I was around those kind. I've kind of been hoping that they're in the minority. The ones I know are frustrated with fundies because they give them and other Christians a bad name.

[Legion]

Does anyone ever worry they might be as close-minded now as they were in Christianity?

I think there is a balance to be found in regards to being open minded. If one is too open minded then one risks being gullible. However if one is too skeptical or close minded then one risks shutting out understanding when it presents itself.

 

I find that a recognition of how little I truly understand helps keep me open minded. But at the same time a feel for what understanding itself entails keeps me from being too gullible.

[Piprus]

Does anyone ever worry they might be as close-minded now as they were in Christianity?

Not me. If anything, I'm more open minded as to religious beliefs and spiritual stuff. It's just that I'm skeptical about those things, not wanting to be talked into believing something just because it sounds good. I'll require evidence first, answers to questions second, then give due consideration.

[Japedo]

Well that's a very limited view, you can't place all Christians under one single label since their beliefs do vary. I have never met a Christian who believed in the literal 6 day creation scenario, and with the rest it depends on who you are asking. The ones I am thinking of can give very convincing arguments based on reason and logic as to why they believe what they do... You'd have to be ignorant or naive yourself to think that there are none who put a great deal of thought into what they believe.

 

What sect of Christianity is this? Perhaps you live in another country? I dunno.. It's odd you use the word never when almost all Christians believe this to be so. (Insert any major Christian dogma; Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, et al as proof). I have met extremely few liberal Christians who don't believe the bible to be literal as compared to the literal Christians. I'd also like to be pointed in the direction to read the reason and logic as to why they believe what they do. Thanks!

 

Lastly, Faith doesn't require thought or logic. Faith is to believe strongly without proof. A Christian will cling to their faith more then they will the truth, and believe any form of questioning is equated with doubt (or lack of faith) and therefore will pray for understanding.

 

 

 

ETA: Clarification for nitpickers . By stating the word Christian I'm using the term in the general sense of the word and understand fully it doesn't mean all.

[Ouroboros]

Well that's a very limited view, you can't place all Christians under one single label since their beliefs do vary. I have never met a Christian who believed in the literal 6 day creation scenario, and with the rest it depends on who you are asking. The ones I am thinking of can give very convincing arguments based on reason and logic as to why they believe what they do... You'd have to be ignorant or naive yourself to think that there are none who put a great deal of thought into what they believe.

You have never met a literalist? I'm sorry, but... WOW!!! That's an achievement in itself.

 

I've met, lets see... probably thousands and thousands of them. In my life, if I add up all people I have ever met, they would count for 90%. But that's because I used to belong to, and work in, a very fundamentalistic/literalistic church (like I told you before). It was the largest Word of Faith Church in Europe in the 80's and early 90's. We had people coming to our church to go to our one year Bible School (that was teaching literal interpretation of Genesis for instance, so 6 days, and 6000 years was guaranteed). The church had 2000 members, and the school had a couple of thousand students too. So total of probably 5000 there. And new students every year. And for the new year conference yet more thousands of people came to listen to preachers from all around the world, and the summer conference the church bought a circus tent that could house 10,000 people, and it was full. So I've met and seen plenty of 6-day-creationists.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, I'm sure there are I just haven't met them maybe a couple on line but none in real life. I bet my views on Christians would change if I was around those kind. I've kind of been hoping that they're in the minority. The ones I know are frustrated with fundies because they give them and other Christians a bad name.

I have to disagree with you a bit here Kir,

 

Who are these "other Christians" and how many are they really? Do you consider Catholics to be Christians or not?

 

Honestly, I have met very few Christians on my end that were the liberal kind that you're talking about.

 

I think the statistics is something like: 70% Christians in America, and 50-55% of Americans believe God created the world in 6 days, which means a majority of the Christians do believe in the 6 day creation. It's the biggest attraction today in the religious world. You never heard of The Creationist Museum?

 

I have to ask, are you from America or from another part of the world? (You know we Americans divide the world in two camps, America and the rest. )

[Dhampir]

Well that's a very limited view, you can't place all Christians under one single label since their beliefs do vary. I have never met a Christian who believed in the literal 6 day creation scenario, and with the rest it depends on who you are asking. The ones I am thinking of can give very convincing arguments based on reason and logic as to why they believe what they do... You'd have to be ignorant or naive yourself to think that there are none who put a great deal of thought into what they believe.

You have never met a literalist? I'm sorry, but... WOW!!! That's an achievement in itself.

 

I've met, lets see... probably thousands and thousands of them. In my life, if I add up all people I have ever met, they would count for 90%. But that's because I used to belong to, and work in, a very fundamentalistic/literalistic church (like I told you before). It was the largest Word of Faith Church in Europe in the 80's and early 90's. We had people coming to our church to go to our one year Bible School (that was teaching literal interpretation of Genesis for instance, so 6 days, and 6000 years was guaranteed). The church had 2000 members, and the school had a couple of thousand students too. So total of probably 5000 there. And new students every year. And for the new year conference yet more thousands of people came to listen to preachers from all around the world, and the summer conference the church bought a circus tent that could house 10,000 people, and it was full. So I've met and seen plenty of 6-day-creationists.

 

I don't think Kirangel is being totally honest with herself. She's picking through arguments and experiences she's had to, it would seem, make her avowedly non-christian belief in Jesus as an actual historic figure, and of the high moral standing that the bible claims look more reasonable.

 

If her belief was non-essential, as she claims, it wouldn't require such methods to keep it intact, or for that matter, it would have definitely changed by now in light of what has been received here, if it weren't totally discarded.

[Ouroboros]

I don't think Kirangel is being totally honest with herself. She's picking through arguments and experiences she's had to, it would seem, make her avowedly non-christian belief in Jesus as an actual historic figure, and of the high moral standing that the bible claims look more reasonable.

 

If her belief was non-essential, as she claims, it wouldn't require such methods to keep it intact, or for that matter, it would have definitely changed by now in light of what has been received here, if it weren't totally discarded.

I think the situation is that Kir lives in some area where the majority are very liberal Christians and she maybe never had a chance of going outside and see how other people think? I don't know. She can probably fill in the blanks here.

[Dhampir]

I think the situation is that Kir lives in some area where the majority are very liberal Christians and she maybe never had a chance of going outside and see how other people think? I don't know. She can probably fill in the blanks here.

Possible, but unless she lives in a cave, underwater, or has never watched tv in her life, it doesn't seem likely that she wouldn't know of the existence of creationists, fundamentalists, etc. Her arguments look like she thinks we're misrepresenting the bulk of christianity, because of our disenfranchisement with it or something, and that more christians than not are a. informed, invested and understanding of their faith, having reached valid conclusions that are completely justified, and b. that their beliefs are therefore at least nearly as moderate as her own "non-christian" viewpoints, the fundamentalist view apparently being a fringe standpoint or something.

 

That's what I see, anyway.

[Japedo]

I think the situation is that Kir lives in some area where the majority are very liberal Christians and she maybe never had a chance of going outside and see how other people think? I don't know. She can probably fill in the blanks here.

Possible, but unless she lives in a cave, underwater, or has never watched tv in her life, it doesn't seem likely that she wouldn't know of the existence of creationists, fundamentalists, etc. Her arguments look like she thinks we're misrepresenting the bulk of christianity, because of our disenfranchisement with it or something, and that more christians than not are a. informed, invested and understanding of their faith, having reached valid conclusions that are completely justified, and b. that their beliefs are therefore at least nearly as moderate as her own "non-christian" viewpoints, the fundamentalist view apparently being a fringe standpoint or something.

 

That's what I see, anyway.

 

I have to agree, saying that you have never met a creationist is tantamount to saying you've never met anyone of a mainstream religion. Example: I've never met a catholic, Baptist or Orthodox and so forth. It's not realistic.. Even people in mainly none religious country's can't lay to that claim.

 

I'm also interested in reading the apparent "logic and reason of faith", I look forward to the information.

[Jessica Sideways]

I happily debate with Christians about why I am not a Christian. In fact, I feel like this is better, as it makes the victory of winning the debate much better.

[Grandpa Harley]

I've just met someone who thinks that JK Rowling is the devil's pizzle...

[Kirangel]

What sect of Christianity is this? Perhaps you live in another country? I dunno.. It's odd you use the word never when almost all Christians believe this to be so. (Insert any major Christian dogma; Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox, et al as proof). I have met extremely few liberal Christians who don't believe the bible to be literal as compared to the literal Christians. I'd also like to be pointed in the direction to read the reason and logic as to why they believe what they do. Thanks!

 

Lastly, Faith doesn't require thought or logic. Faith is to believe strongly without proof. A Christian will cling to their faith more then they will the truth, and believe any form of questioning is equated with doubt (or lack of faith) and therefore will pray for understanding.

 

 

 

ETA: Clarification for nitpickers . By stating the word Christian I'm using the term in the general sense of the word and understand fully it doesn't mean all.

 

 

The Catechism of the Catholic church takes the position that the 6-day creation is not literal, although the Popes never made a claim of infallibility on that one. So if a Catholic wants to view it as literal then that's fine, it would not be a sin. I grew up around mostly Catholics and a few protestants. The protestants were more liberal at least the ones I know, I never questioned them on the creation but from knowing them I very highly doubt that they would take the creation as a literal 6-days. I used to go into a lot of Christian and Catholic groups on-line, only once do I remember someone saying that they believe in a young earth. Now I'm curious as to how many believe it to be so, and how many do not.

 

I disagree with you on faith, it is a strong belief which in some cases may be backed by reasoning and logic it's not always blind and it's not always based solely on a warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[Grandpa Harley]

It's not necessarily blind, but it's always based on circular logic...

[Kirangel]

Oh, I'm sure there are I just haven't met them maybe a couple on line but none in real life. I bet my views on Christians would change if I was around those kind. I've kind of been hoping that they're in the minority. The ones I know are frustrated with fundies because they give them and other Christians a bad name.

I have to disagree with you a bit here Kir,

 

Who are these "other Christians" and how many are they really? Do you consider Catholics to be Christians or not?

 

Honestly, I have met very few Christians on my end that were the liberal kind that you're talking about.

 

I think the statistics is something like: 70% Christians in America, and 50-55% of Americans believe God created the world in 6 days, which means a majority of the Christians do believe in the 6 day creation. It's the biggest attraction today in the religious world. You never heard of The Creationist Museum?

 

I have to ask, are you from America or from another part of the world? (You know we Americans divide the world in two camps, America and the rest. )

 

50-55%??? hmmm...if I was a politician, I could use that...

 

Seriously though, maybe it is just me. I meet a lot of people who complain about Christians but the ones I know are cool. I could have met more who take it literally and just not have known it, I don't question everyone about it. The town I grew up in is sort of San Frans little sister (very liberal, the green party candidate probably gets the most votes in presidential elections).

 

CATHOLICS ARE THE TRUE CHRISTIANS, the rest are just wayward children who have deviated slightly from the true path. The catholic church did not ingrain that into my head it's something I pretty much picked up on my own when I was a member. The Catholics actually never really mentioned other Christians in a negative way. They've always seemed more calm and relaxed to me.

 

haha, so yes of course Catholics are Christians.

 

 

I want to go see the creationist museum it looks like a fun place. I always thought it would have been cool if people had actually co-existed with dinosaurs, I was disappointed as a kid when I found out they didn't.

 

 

Lol, America and the rest...

 

I'm from the US.

[Grandpa Harley]

Which version of Catholics? Anglo? Roman?