In a world without religion ....

[Alice]

I've been thinking about some of the things that a lot of people are mad at religion for .... like sexism, homophobia, war in the name of god .....

 

The context of this for me is my current confusion about morality and the existence of good and evil - both in me (i'm a little bit good and a little bit wicked ) and in the wider world - where I see evidence of both extreme goodness and terrible evil.

 

I've noticed that the 'problem of evil' has not gone away for me - as a christian I had a hard time explaining it's existence .... and I still do!

 

Take my first example ... I really don't think that christianity can be blamed for creating sexism ... wasn't it here already - long before someone first told the adam and eve tale?

 

Would oppression really go away if there was no religion? I know that christianity gives 'authority' to the oppressive beliefs it perpetuates, but would the world really be all sweetness and light without religion?

[Vigile]

Imagine there's no Heaven...

 

Uh, sorry. Just a John Lennon flash back.

 

I think you have a good point. While there is morality without religion, the absence of it would probably not cause the world to become more or less evil. For example, a lot of evil is perpetuated by christianity, but not all christians perpetuate evil; far from it.

 

I just finished Platform by Michel Houllebecq and have been thinking of these same issues. The world can be a pretty ugly place and it can be pretty damn beautiful at the same time. Reality on these matters seems to come down to experience and perception.

 

Ok, I guess I didn't really say much here. Again, you raise an interesting issue.

[Alice]

Imagine there's no Heaven...

 

Uh, sorry.  Just a John Lennon flash back.

 

I think you have a good point.  While there is morality without religion, the absence of it would probably not cause the world to become more or less evil.  For example, a lot of evil is perpetuated by christianity, but not all christians perpetuate evil; far from it. 

 

I just finished Platform by Michel Houllebecq and have been thinking of these same issues.  The world can be a pretty ugly place and it can be pretty damn beautiful at the same time.  Reality on these matters seems to come down to experience and perception.

 

Ok, I guess I didn't really say much here.  Again, you raise an interesting issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess I'm tusseling with the 'blame game' - as a christian there was someone to blame (even if it didn't actually make sense .. what with God having had to have created evil n' all!)

 

I see in some of the threads here anger and blame being directed at the church for various atrocities and for behaving in a way that oppresses people - but I just don't believe that religion created the bad stuff - I think religion was just an attempt to 'explain' it (although I totally accept that religion' has been used as an excuse to perpetuate hate and other isms)

 

I know you say that you dopn't feel as if you've contributed much to my line of thought ... but you have no idea how good it is hear 'I've been thinking on the same issues'.

 

p.s nothing to do with anything ... are you homesick?

[Alice]

Thankful,

 

thank you for your reply.

 

I guess I'm going to have go away to try and put my thoughts into a more coherent form ... because I'd don't think I've been able to convey to you what I'm tusseling with.

 

When I look out of my window onto the world I seem to see a very different picture to you - I see evil irrespective of religion. I acknowldege what you are saying about the collective power of groups of people all adhereing to the same oppressive ideology but I also see that with non religious bodies. I see a world where in recent history innumerable numbers of people have been killed as a result of oppressive political ideologies where religion plays no part. I look in my history books and see non religious people who murder groups that don't share their perspective as much as I see it for religious reasons.

 

I see groups of disaffected kids forming themselves into rival gangs and killing each other and when magnified up onto a global scale I see nations killing each other. Sometimes a 'symbol' or a 'cause' or a 'flag' is used to unify them - sometimes that 'cause' is a religion ... sometimes not. There is something in human nature that seems to compel many of us to identify with a 'cause' and pledge allegience to it even unto death.

 

I don't see a way forward for mankind in terms of any big improvements to the human condition by just getting rid of religion ... I think the problem will still be there - we'll just have to find a new label for the problem.

[Purple Rhino]

...

 

Would oppression really go away if there was no religion? I know that christianity gives 'authority' to the oppressive beliefs it perpetuates, but would the world really be all sweetness and light without religion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No oppression would not go away without religion. Would it be inflicted on fewer? Most likely.

 

As you say the "authority to the oppressive beliefs" without religion would not be taught. The insidiousness of rearing generations under an oppressive belief system brings about growth in bigotry and hatred. The stories and excuses created to control are continued.

 

Whereas if there were no religion teaching these things then there most likely would fewer excuses to stunt the psychological growth of society.

 

Without religious influence as each generation matures and grows beyond the fear of differences in others, which is the foundation of hate, the more accepting and peaceful society could evolve.

 

Maybe

 

PR

[Alice]

No oppression would not go away without religion. Would it be inflicted on fewer? Most likely.

 

As you say the "authority to the oppressive beliefs" without religion would not be taught. The insidiousness of rearing generations under an oppressive belief system brings about growth in bigotry and hatred. The stories and excuses created to control are continued.

 

Whereas if there were no religion teaching these things then there most likely would fewer excuses to stunt the psychological growth of society.

 

Without religious influence as each generation matures and grows beyond the fear of differences in others, which is the foundation of hate,  the more accepting and peaceful society could evolve.

 

Maybe

 

PR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I would so love to believe that!

 

I guess living in the UK - where christians are in the minority and fundamentalists are regarded as a strange and inconsequential novelty the view from my window is going to be very different. I'd love to say - ahh yes Britain - a nation of peaceloving live and let live people who wouldn't dream of discriminating on grounds of gender/sexual orientation/race or disability .... on paper this might be the case ... (and maybe we've only got the legislation we've got ... because religion is on the decline...)

 

But there are just as many mean spirited people as ever. I've encountered more homophobia and sexism outside of the church than I ever have inside it.

 

And what I'm really grappling with ... is an understanding of 'sin' I guess - and by this I mean everything that I think is bad and rotten in the state of 'hesitent' and in the world (not 'sin' as listed in the Bible)

 

I have some understanding of negative thought patterns and behaviours that are a response to abusive upbringings - I have psychological explanations for some behaviours - I know 'how' the patterns get repeated from one generation to another but I don't know 'Why' .... and to coin a phrase .... I don't think religion is the answer!

 

I used to like to blame the 'Daily Mail' for hatred in Britain (nasty tabloid paper of 'middle england')... but I guess I've come to see it's not as simple as that.

[Ouroboros]

I see in some of the threads here anger and blame being directed at the church for various atrocities and for behaving in a way that oppresses people - but I just don't believe that religion created the bad stuff - I think religion was just an attempt to 'explain' it (although I totally accept that religion' has been used as an excuse to perpetuate hate and other isms)

 

What happens if we ask this question instead:

 

Instead of saying Religion causes all the problems, lets ask Who Created Religion?

 

Was in the Church or was it Humans?

 

The Church didn't exist until religion was accepted as a de facto, so it must have been humans.

 

So if we remove religion, will religion be gone?

[Ouroboros]

Another interesting thought is that this is what Carl Marx wanted to achieve, a society without the atrocities of religion. His goal was not the Stalinistic version of Marxism. He wanted Utopia here on Earth, but changing people’s behavior and need of religion, so he replaced religion with the state and politics. Unfortunately this is just another ideology, but same humans behind it.

 

***Edit***

 

Man! Ay cramp’t sprell bwright???

[Purple Rhino]

I would so love to believe that!...

 

I guess living in the UK - where christians are in the minority and fundamentalists are regarded as a strange and inconsequential novelty the view from my window is going to be very different.  I'd love to say - ahh yes Britain - a nation of peaceloving live and let live people who wouldn't dream of discriminating on grounds of gender/sexual orientation/race or disability .... on paper this might be the case ... (and maybe we've only got the legislation we've got ... because religion is on the decline...)

 

But there are just as many mean spirited people as ever.  I've encountered more homophobia and sexism outside of the church than I ever have inside it.

 

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hesitent,

 

I stated on what could eventually be throughout generations evolving beyond the hatred.

 

But honestly I have rethought (hope reach isn't around not sure that re can go infront of thought) my response. And the best way for me to illustrate where I'm coming from is a short story of our kids.

 

When the kids first came to live with us, we laid out the rules of the house. We told each of them that it was their choice of how or even if they wanted to tell friends that their dad and I were a couple. But, any friend that stayed the night had to know. And we would not redecorate for their friends, such as taking pictures of us down. (Not anything kinky IBF! LOL hurumph)

 

Anyway to our surprise within a week our house was the place to be. All of the kids friends had no problem at all with a gay couple. Even more the ones who's parents were uncomfortable with gay people were more accepting. Solely on the fact that their parents didn't approve they defacto being kids did.

 

So although I believe that bigotry is taught I also know that it often backfires also.

 

Now I have to rethink this whole question

 

PR

[Vigile]

p.s nothing to do with anything ... are you homesick?

 

 

Surprisingly, not at all. I've been here since August and now we are meeting with a real estate agent this weekend to try and find something near the center. I love it here. There is so much more freedom and life is much less hectic. I really like the expat lifestyle and intend to stay one. We are considering wintering on Margarita Island (Venezuela), so I'm not necessarily going to stay stuck here in the cold.

[Vigile]

Thankful,

 

When I look out of my window onto the world I seem to see a very different picture to you - I see evil irrespective of religion. 

 

Hesitant, this reminds me of the Hobbes-Locke debate and since you are British, even more so.

 

If I don't get the facts perfect, forgive me. It's been a while since I was in school.

 

Hobbes looked out his window and saw the king, god's representative on earth, getting decapitated. The horror! So he argued that "life in the state of nature is NASTY, BRUTAL, and SHORT."

 

Locke on the other hand was one of those damn optimistic liberals . You know, the ones that see good in everyone. When he looked out his window he saw neighbors stealing each others chickens and perhaps moving the boundary markers when they thought they were not being watched, but overall, man was not so bad. Man just needed a little guidance and a few laws to keep him in line and to keep society orderly.

 

The views of both gentlemen were based largely on their experiences and personality types. Who was right? I think both were. There are some pretty nasty, brutal and short stories I could tell you about what happens with the street beggars here in St. Petersburg and how the mafia uses them. Most people though are pretty law abiding and in general, nice.

 

Perhaps your problem is with the terms good and evil. Perhaps things just ARE and we make up rules of behavior to get along with one another better. Most want to get along well with others, but some don't. The realities of this world taken as a whole can be pretty harsh. If you have to bear the burden of Africa on your shoulders for example, your sanity is probably not going to last very long. I'm not sure the world is ever going to get "better." I could spend my life in mortal fear from what I know about nuclear arms policy and the history of man's behavior. I choose not to focus on it. I don't mean to give unwanted advice here so I'll stop at that. I just mention these things as something to think about.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Religion disturbs me profoundly. It's like watching an adult still believe in Santa Claus with all their heart, and going around roundly telling everyone that they should too; if they don't believe in a jolly fat man with gifts, they're bad people and should have no toys, and even have what toys they enjoy outside of the holiday taken away for not believing.

 

Not that I can entirely blame religion for our problems - just like the political isms, most of them are fundamentally good ideas at their core. They're just not up to being beliefs, because nine times out of ten, humans will do their best to fuck it all up. People are the problem. But, at the same time, if they didn't have their religion to base their actions on, they might not have committed the atrocities they have. (Either that, or they'd do it anyway without a care in the world. ) I almost got into an argument with my roommate at dinner over the recent bill in the Wisconsin legislature that was passed to allow doctors to morally decide what they wanted to do for their patients - of course, Republicans passed it. It's a bill that, if our gov doesn't veto it (though he said he will), would allow doctors to morally deny women birth control or the morning-after pill because they, personally, don't believe in it. It's fundamentalist Christian bullshit, and my roommate tried giving me the "It's not about religion or Christianity," to which I nearly took his head off. Particularly because I myself have birth control, and it not only prevents conception, but eases a lot of pain. Having it taken away because a fundie fuckhead doesn't like what I do to myself is asinine.

 

I would be far more at ease without some of these people.

[Cerise]

Evil began when people started to think that there was one right way to live and they had it, regardless of religion (though most religions operate on this theme).

 

saving the world

[Vigile]

Evil began when people started to think that there was one right way to live and they had it, regardless of religion (though most religions operate on this theme).

 

saving the world

 

 

That's not true. I know exactly how everyone should live and if they did it my way the world would be perfect.

[Cerise]

That's not true.  I know exactly how everyone should live and if they did it my way the world would be perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And that, children, is how the very first christian came into being.

[Alice]

That's not true.  I know exactly how everyone should live and if they did it my way the world would be perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

no, no you are wrong .. it is I who knows exactly how everyone should live and the world will be perfect when everyone does it my way!

 

Reminds me of some of the conversations I had with like minded friends as we were leaving the church ... but before we left, when we were going to start a tolerant church - where people would be free to explore their faith, and doubt and ask questions - where people at all different stages of 'belief and non belief would be tolerated and welcomed .... except of course for narrow minded people who didn't share our view of the world and the need to accept all many of faiths .. no sir, we wouldn't tolerate THAT sort ...

[Vigile]

Ok, it seems as if I am now going to have to destroy everyone who disagrees with me

 

But don't worry, when I'm done we will have utopia.

[Alice]

Hesitent,

 

I stated on what could eventually be throughout generations evolving beyond the hatred.

 

But honestly I have rethought (hope reach isn't around not sure that re can go infront of thought) my response. And the best way for me to illustrate where I'm coming from is a short story of our kids.

 

When the kids first came to live with us, we laid out the rules of the house. We told each of them that it was their choice of how or even if they wanted to tell friends that their dad and I were a couple. But, any friend that stayed the night had to know. And we would not redecorate for their friends, such as taking pictures of us down. (Not anything kinky IBF! LOL hurumph)

 

Anyway to our surprise within a week our house was the place to be. All of the kids friends had no problem at all with a gay couple. Even more the ones who's parents were uncomfortable with gay people were more accepting. Solely on the fact that their parents didn't approve they defacto being kids did.

 

So although I believe that bigotry is taught I also know that it often backfires also.

 

Now I have to rethink this whole question 

 

PR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

PR,

 

thank you for the sharing an example from your own life ... I love personal illustrations in conversation and I learn so much more from dialogue in this way.

 

(an unrelated to this thread aside ... I use the expression PR several times a day every day ... in my job 'PR' stands for 'parental responsibility'. Today a purple rhino made an appearance in an otherwise serious train of thought!)

 

Your story about your kids and their friends is an encouraging one and full of hope. - Is there a difference though - between kids whose parents ' feel uncomfortable' with a gay couple and those who show outright hostility?

[Ouroboros]

no, no you are wrong .. it is I who knows exactly how everyone should live and the world will be perfect when everyone does it my way!

 

Reminds me of some of the conversations I had with like minded friends as we were leaving the church ... but before we left, when we were going to start a tolerant church - where people would be free to explore their faith, and doubt and ask questions - where people at all different stages of 'belief and non belief would be tolerated and welcomed .... except of course for narrow minded people who didn't share our view of the world and the need to accept all many of faiths .. no sir, we wouldn't tolerate THAT sort ...

 

Yes, be tolerant to everyone, except the intolerant ones.

 

Accept anyone, except those who don't accept anyone else.

 

Don't hate different minded people, except people that hate different minded people.

[Purple Rhino]

...

(an unrelated to this thread aside ... I use the expression PR several times a day every day ... in my job 'PR' stands for 'parental responsibility'. Today a purple rhino made an appearance in an otherwise serious train of thought!)

 

Your story about your kids and their friends is an encouraging one and full of hope. - Is there a difference though - between kids whose parents ' feel uncomfortable' with a gay couple and those who show outright hostility?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Tell me about the purple rhino appearance.

 

2. I would say that the kids we encountered only 3 had parents that I would consider outright hostile. And the difference would be how much they told their parents. As far as their attitude, they were probably a little more reserved and uptight than most of the other kids. I attributed (sp?) it more to just not knowing what to expect or how they were "supposed" to act around The Gays. Because of their homelife. Now that you have me thinking about it another thing occurs to me that 2 of the 3 who's families were hostile. Really talked more one on one with me about personal questions they had. Not just about sexuality, but about personal 'teen age' obsticles.

 

For years I both adored the kids sharing our home with us and couldn't wait for them to get out! Now I really miss a housefull of kids at times.

 

PR

[Alice]

  I don't mean to give unwanted advice here so I'll stop at that.  I just mention these things as something to think about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Its good advice ... I'm thinking.

[Mythra]

People will kill people and hate, no matter what.

 

It's human nature.

 

Religion just gives people the idea that they're doing God a favor while they do it.

 

"His blood be on us and our children". nice. How many have died because of that one statement?

 

And the jews never even said it.

[Alice]

People will kill people and hate, no matter what.

 

It's human nature. 

 

Religion just gives people the idea that they're doing God a favor while they do it.

 

"His blood be on us and our children".  nice.  How many have died because of that one statement? 

 

And the jews never even said it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you saying it's human nature ....

 

or that it's religious statements? ....

 

If people will kill and hate no matter what ... then it's not religion that matters ... is it?

[Mythra]

I think the question is, does religion make this human tendency worse or does it lessen it?

 

I tend to think, based on a cursory glance at history, that it makes it worse. Try and find one single really horrible atrocity that was not religious in nature or at least was initiated by religious thought.

 

(I'm not saying there aren't any, I just can't think of any)..

 

Meanwhile, I could give you a list as long as my arm, just caused from people who were followers of the godman Jesus alone.

 

And, I'm not buying the argument that they did it "in spite of" the fact they were christians.

[Alice]

I think the question is, does religion make this human tendency worse or does it lessen it?

 

I tend to think, based on a cursory glance at history, that it makes it worse.  Try and find one single really horrible atrocity that was not religious in nature or at least was initiated by religious thought.

 

(I'm not saying there aren't any, I just can't think of any)..

 

Meanwhile, I could give you a list as long as my arm, just caused from people who were followers of the godman Jesus alone.

 

And, I'm not buying the argument that they did it "in spite of" the fact they were christians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Off the top of my head - I'd say the first and second world wars and atrocities committed by communist regiemes.

 

I think because I see good and bad in religion - just as I see good and bad in humankind - I think I've come to the conclusion that religion is irrelevent to the prevalence of goodness and badness in the world, people that are wanting to be good and compassionate will generally find the good and compassion in religion and emphasise that part - people that are wanting to oppress and force their views on others will emphasise those parts.

 

And those that want to either of these things without religious allegience will still do them without it.