The Ghosts We Think We See

[Ouroboros]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/62337?GT1=10450

Bruce Hood usually conducts experiments under much more rigorous conditions than this, but since he had a large audience one recent evening in London, the University of Bristol psychology professor figured he'd seize the opportunity. Holding up an old cardigan, he asked if anyone would be willing to wear it if he paid them £20 (about $40). Every hand shot up. Then Hood added that the sweater had been worn by a notorious murderer. All but a couple of hands disappeared. "People view evil as something physical, even tangible, and able to infect the sweater" as easily as lice, Hood says. That idea helps explain a number of supernatural beliefs, he argues: "The idea of spirits and souls appearing in this world becomes more plausible if we believe in general that the nonphysical can transfer over to the physical world."

[Kelli]

I'd love to know how he explains away class A EVP's.

[Dave]

I'd love to know how he explains away class A EVP's.

 

Electronic Voice Phenomena? That's easy. The brain looks for patterns. If a pattern is looked for, one will be found even if the brain has to invent it. Seeing Jesus on a tortilla would be the same thing. It's called 'pareidolia."

[Kelli]

I'd love to know how he explains away class A EVP's.

 

Electronic Voice Phenomena? That's easy. The brain looks for patterns. If a pattern is looked for, one will be found even if the brain has to invent it. Seeing Jesus on a tortilla would be the same thing. It's called 'pareidolia."

 

Whatever. I have recorded and witnessed very clear EVP's. They do exist, and thus far no one has been able to prove one way or the other how they are created, though some of the clear responses to questions and situations would suggest that the source of at least some EVP's have intelligence of some sort behind them.

 

And don't say it's some sort of electrical interference or radio signal. I tested my own Sony digital recorder placed against the phasor cabinet of a 50,000 watt AM transmitter array. The field induced isn't even considered safe for human exposure for extended periods, yet there was no measureable rectification and detection of the RF in the recording.

 

You don't know everything, Dave.

[Dave]

I'd love to know how he explains away class A EVP's.

Electronic Voice Phenomena? That's easy. The brain looks for patterns. If a pattern is looked for, one will be found even if the brain has to invent it. Seeing Jesus on a tortilla would be the same thing. It's called 'pareidolia."

Whatever. I have recorded and witnessed very clear EVP's. They do exist, and thus far no one has been able to prove one way or the other how they are created, though some of the clear responses to questions and situations would suggest that the source of at least some EVP's have intelligence of some sort behind them.

Whatever. Since you have no proof as to what they are, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anything "intelligent" is behind them. Again, you are only hearing what you want to hear.

And don't say it's some sort of electrical interference or radio signal......

Diathermy, sunspots, harmonics, all are valid causes of what you believe you are hearing.

You don't know everything, Dave.

Where did I claim I do? Why so quick to jump to personal attacks? Did I attack you? Did I misbehave in any way? Or did I just say something you do not like?

[Kelli]

Whatever. Since you have no proof as to what they are, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anything "intelligent" is behind them. Again, you are only hearing what you want to hear.

And don't say it's some sort of electrical interference or radio signal......

Diathermy, sunspots, harmonics, all are valid causes of what you believe you are hearing.

You don't know everything, Dave.

Where did I claim I do? Why so quick to jump to personal attacks? Did I attack you? Did I misbehave in any way? Or did I just say something you do not like?

 

How many EVP's have you studied, Dave? How many hours of recordings have you logged? Unlike jesus, Dave, EVP's actually present their own physical evidence. We could argue how they are created, but you can't brush off the fact that they do exist and many do appear to have intelligence behind them. I'm talking CLASS A EVP's where the audio is clear and there is no question what the sounds are or what the voices are saying. Your mind can't just make this shit up, and thousands of people have experienced them and have the evidence recorded to prove it.

 

When you have some real-world experience in this field, come back and talk to me. You have no idea what you're talking about, yet you say "That's easy," basically saying you scoff at something I take very seriously. So yes, I take it personally. You really don't have a clue about this. Not a clue! You're talking out of your ass. You're like the christian who says the rest of the world is wrong because of what the bible says, yet he never took the time to actually read the book he waves around. You're not always right. Get over it!

[Evan]

Interesting stuff Han... I'm suprised i haven't seen this on wired.com. I always seem to see odd articles like that on there.

 

Other than rambling... I had to post to mCAT. Relax man, Dave definitely didn't mean to offend you and he(as well as I) had no idea from your original post that you would take it that seriously.

[Kelli]

Interesting stuff Han... I'm suprised i haven't seen this on wired.com. I always seem to see odd articles like that on there.

 

Other than rambling... I had to post to mCAT. Relax man, Dave definitely didn't mean to offend you and he(as well as I) had no idea from your original post that you would take it that seriously.

 

 

Oh, I'm fine. Yes, he ruffled me up a bit, but I said what I needed to say. That said, I'm not altogether certain that he `means` to come across like a swinging dick or not (though I wouldn't hesitate long to say yes), but he quite often does.

[Dave]

Whatever. Since you have no proof as to what they are, there is absolutely no reason to believe that anything "intelligent" is behind them. Again, you are only hearing what you want to hear.

And don't say it's some sort of electrical interference or radio signal......

Diathermy, sunspots, harmonics, all are valid causes of what you believe you are hearing.

You don't know everything, Dave.

Where did I claim I do? Why so quick to jump to personal attacks? Did I attack you? Did I misbehave in any way? Or did I just say something you do not like?

 

How many EVP's have you studied, Dave? ......

 

Whatever. When you can leave out the personal attacks, get back to me on it.

[Dave]

Interesting stuff Han... I'm suprised i haven't seen this on wired.com. I always seem to see odd articles like that on there.

 

Other than rambling... I had to post to mCAT. Relax man, Dave definitely didn't mean to offend you and he(as well as I) had no idea from your original post that you would take it that seriously.

Oh, I'm fine. Yes, he ruffled me up a bit, but I said what I needed to say. That said, I'm not altogether certain that he `means` to come across like a swinging dick or not (though I wouldn't hesitate long to say yes), but he quite often does.

Again, you are only finding what you want to find.

[Jun]

http://www.aaevp.com/ - American Association of EVP

 

From Wiki -

 

EVP has been claimed since the 1950s, those doing so have concluded that the most likely explanation for the phenomena is that they are produced by the spirits of the deceased.

 

Sound engineers who use equipment at a much higher quality than that which is used by many EVP researchers have stated that they have never heard voices after years of listening to tape and hard disk recordings and that the low quality of the equipment used can account for many of the apparent voices. Skeptics have also concluded that certain cases are liklely due to Apophenia (finding of significance or connections between insignificant or unrelated phenomena), misidentification, or hoaxes.

 

More interesting is this site - http://theskepticexpress.com/Experimenting_with_EVP.php - James Randi (the famous demystifier of all paranormal) is their patron and they have a forum.

[Casey]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away some well-documented stories from the Tower Of London:

 

E. L. Swifte, who was a keeper of the Crown Jewels in the 19th century, recorded one of the most interesting and fullest descriptions of a haunting within the tower. He and his family were sitting at a candlelit dinner in his room in the Martin Tower in 1817, when his wife spotted something on the other side of the room. She cried out in alarm and Swifte turned round to see a cylindrical object resembling a glass tube, filled with bubbling blue fluid. The strange apparition started to move and came round behind his wife, who was still sitting at the table. She cried out that it had tried to grab her, and Swifte let fly at it with a chair, which passed straight through the object. The cylinder then receded backwards and disappeared.

 

Swifte was also a confidant in another ghostly oft quoted sighting; apparently a sentry on guard in what is now the Martin Tower, witnessed the apparition of a bear coming from out of the Jewel Room. He stabbed at it with his bayonet, which passed through the apparition and embedded in a door, whereupon the bear promptly disappeared. The sentry died a few days later, possibly of shock, but he had already confided in Swifte and another sentry who verified his story. The sighting has been dated to January in the year 1815 or 1816.

 

And:

 

Ann Boleyn is said to be one of the most enduring ghosts of the Tower, she haunts the vicinity of the White Tower, the King's House, Tower Green, and the chapel of St Peter ad Vincula, where her headless body was interred in an arrow case under the floor. She was executed in 1536, after Henry VIII had become tired of her.

 

In 1864 a sentry is said to have challenged a headless figure thought to be Ann Boleyn, his bayonet passed straight through her, and he fainted in shock. He was saved from court martial for being asleep at his post, on the word of other guards, who said they had witnessed a similar occurrence. In another account a Captain of the Guard is said to have seen a light source coming from within the locked empty Chapel Royal in the White Tower. He climbed a ladder to peer down into the chapel, and witnessed a procession of people in ancient dress, with an elegant woman walking in front of them. He recognised the slender figure as Ann Boleyn from portraits that he had seen.

 

Somehow, I don't think I'd like to have been the Duty Officer whose job it would have been to enter these last two encounters into the log.

Casey

 

Mysterious Britain reference

[mwc]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away some well-documented stories from the Tower Of London:

My totally unscientific guess?

 

I have a theory (guess) that under just the right set of circumstances (don't ask me what they are...unscientific guess, remember) that "events" (items, people, places...it all varies) and "time" can be essentially "recorded" say in a magnetic field of some sort (I use that term loosely just to tie it to other magnetic recording media like tape or hard disks). Then, later, when conditions once again become "right" those events can "play back." The trick is being "tuned in" so you can view the show. I think that quite a bit of history may be recorded like this and if we could figure out how this is all done we could watch this recorded history. The other problem is locating the "recordings" since it's all very randomly captured to begin with. The "voices" could be simply an aspect of this whole "system" meaning, like we're familiar with, there's audio, video, both combined, "snapshots" and maybe other "recordings" to deal with (I'm just using common terms of course...I have no idea what they'd really be like if real) but like what we have these events are said and done so there's no intelligence behind them. They would be "portals" to what was and not what is.

 

Anyway, that's just my simple thoughts on "ghosts," voices and all the rest of those types of things.

 

mwc

[Kelli]

How many EVP's have you studied, Dave? ......

 

Whatever. When you can leave out the personal attacks, get back to me on it.

 

How is that a personal attack? I asked you how much of this field of study you've actually studied yourself. It's like asking your doctor if he went to med school when you note that there's no diploma hanging on the wall.

 

You have absolutely no credibility whatsoever until you've at least actually examined the evidence, which you obviously haven't. I've been studying the paranormal for 12 years, Dave. Write it off all you want, and remain blissfully ignorant. Works for me.

[Vigile]

from the article:

 

But after the skeptics were given L-dopa, a drug that increases dopamine, their skeptical threshold fell, and they ID'd more faces and words as real. That suggests that dopamine inclines the brain to see patterns even in random noise. Boo!

 

This is one reason why you can't believe everything you think you hear or see. Until I see a peer reviewed study that defines real evidence for so-called paranormal claims I to shall remain blissfully and woefully ignorant on the subject.

 

Why do believers get so huffy when we refuse to give weight to their anecdotal evidence?

 

TBH, those of us who spent a good chunk of our lives using the same type of faulty logic just don't have room for it anymore. Just one peer reviewed study is all I ask. Doesn't seem like a lot.

[Guest Marty]

http://www.aaevp.com/ - American Association of EVP

 

 

Sound engineers who use equipment at a much higher quality than that which is used by many EVP researchers have stated that they have never heard voices after years of listening to tape and hard disk recordings and that the low quality of the equipment used can account for many of the apparent voices. Skeptics have also concluded that certain cases are liklely due to Apophenia (finding of significance or connections between insignificant or unrelated phenomena), misidentification, or hoaxes.

 

 

I was just gonna write in on this. I know next to nothing about EVP's, never bothered to look into them because I find the concept to be pure fantasy, but I've been a professional recording engineer for 12 years now, and I've been recording on Radio Shack and Heath Kit gear since I was about 14.

 

Probally thousands of hours recording, many times all night. {I was told in xtian school that alot of rock records are made at night, after midnight, and this allows evil spirits to get on the recordings!} I've worked on low end analog and high end digital, and just about everthing in between. Recorded in MANY studios, built a few of my own, and recorded concerts all over South Florida. The acoustics in the control rooms and the speakers used in studios are designed to be brutally honest with reproducing the signal. They DO NOT flatter the signal at all. When I put in a old worn out Beatles CD at the studio to listen to during down time, I still hear stuff that you cannot hear in the car, or the computer, or any other enviroment.

 

Aside from an occaisional digital glitch from a cell phone or sometimes just a bum drive, I have never, ever heard anything that I would even consider to be anything other than a glitch. Never heard any whisper, voice, scream, etc that wasn't spoken by a living, breathing person in the room. There have been some funny coincidences, such as a digi blip happening right when the singer sang "Who I will screw", but that's about all I can think of after a 12 years of recording everything from punk concerts to live musical theatre.

 

I mentioned in another thread how recording technology can impart weird anomolies into the signal that can sometimes be very odd or "eerie". ESPECIALLY when you are using consumer recorders. Fidelity is the last thing a manufacture considers when designing a consumer recorder. Digital can be really bad too. The converters that convert the analog voltage into a bit stream and vise-versa have to be built rather well to avoid alot of problems with digital encoding.

 

I watched a "ghost hunter" show once on TV, and they were recording using a minicassette (the WORST when it comes to spec's). They then loaded the recording into COOL EDIT on a windows laptop (a free/super cheap digital editor). They then found a voice that whispered "get out of here!" Buried deep in the noise floor. The only problem is that they told the camera crew they found the sound buried at around 26 Hz.

 

26 Hz is a frequency. It is only one element that makes up sound. By itself, 26Hz cannot really be heard by humans, but it can be felt if its loud enough. But you cannot have an audio signal hidden inside 26Hz because how can you hide a collection of higher frequencies inside a sine wave? You can't. They were using words they thought sounded big and professional. But they were talking out their ass.

 

I find it very telling that after nearly 100 years of recording technology, the only people who are finding EVP's are people who are not educated in the recording arts, are using the cheapest gear avaible, and when they talk about their findings, use language that betrays their ignorance in the technology they are using.

[Kelli]

I find it very telling that after nearly 100 years of recording technology, the only people who are finding EVP's are people who are not educated in the recording arts, are using the cheapest gear avaible, and when they talk about their findings, use language that betrays their ignorance in the technology they are using.

 

I'm a broadcast engineer with 16 years under my belt and the development of award-winning hardware to my credit. I agree that not everyone out there knows what they're doing and many times make something out of nothing, but I can tell you from personal experience and research that there is something to the EVP phenomenon.

[Jun]

Marty or mCAT perhaps either of you would care to comment on this, from the AAEVP site -

 

Selecting an Audio Recorder

Audio recorders models on the market frequently change, and for this reason, we do not recommend particular recorder models. Instead, we will try to provide a list of recommended characteristics and note specific model problems as we learn about them.

 

In general, an audio recorder that is effective for EVP will have the following characteristics:

 

Voice Activated Recording Mode: This is essential if you plan on making many recordings, say at a haunted site, and do not have a lot of time to review sound files. We prefer Voice Activated Recording (VOR) because it does save us considerable time for review, and because the added noise caused by the VOR switching on and off seems to help in voice formation. Interestingly, the communicating entity is apparently able to trigger VOR when it is ready to speak. A good recorder should give you the option of using VOR or not.

 

We have found that the Olympus DS2 has a relatively slow VOR that tends to clip the first part of first words.

 

Low and High Recording Quality Settings: Some studies have shown that digital voice recorders work best for EVP, as compared to cassette and disk recorders. They work about as well as reel-to-reel, but we think this is because of the use of vacuum tubes in reel-to-reel recorders. The same studies have shown that digital voice recorders, operating at relatively low sample rates, produce more EVP than at higher sample rates. The point of this is that low quality or long recording options usually have lower sample rates, therefore more internal noise and therefore more EVP.

 

(Please note that we recommend the use of inexpensive recorders because of the internal noise they have, but we also recommend that you try the higher quality recording option because some experimenters have produced very good EVP with high quality recorders, and when they do, the EVP is usually not as overshadowed by the background noise. Experiment!)

 

Adjustable Microphone Sensitivity: Field recording often involves recording in places with many people talking or a lot of traffic noise. It can be very difficult to avoid these external noises and they may be too much for EVP recording. Decreasing the sensitivity of the microphone may help. At the same time, there are occasions in which the recorder is not producing sufficient sound for voice formation, and the room is too quiet. Increasing the sensitivity of the microphone may help.

 

(By the way, some people are creative and do things such as putting the microphone end of the recorder in a box to capture the "sea in a shell" effect. Others sometimes rub the microphone against cloth. Be creative.)

 

A "Hold" or "Lock" Feature: Using this feature will save you many accidental recordings that can use up your batteries.

 

Interface to a Computer: Newer audio recorders provide a USB port for transferring audio files to a computer; however, if the recorder does not provide a way to save the files as a Windows PCM (*.wav) file format, then we recommend the use of a cable between the earphone jack and the Mic In of the computer, and then the use of an audio management program to record audio files into the computer. See Recording Sound into a Computer for instructions.

 

Quality Enhancement Features: Some recorders have settings that allow you to "enhance" the recordings to optimize voice quality. The features use special algorithms that enhance some frequencies and suppress others. We are not very familiar with these features, but it may be wise to make sure that, if your recorder has such a feature, it also has a way to turn it off.

 

Save audio as mp3 or Windows PCM (*.wav) files: We have learned that some recorders that allow transfer of audio files via a USB connection save only as WMA formatted files. WMA is proprietary and Audacity will not open a WMA file. Some Olympus recorders are this way. Be sure that your recorder will save in a format that you can open with your audio manager. See the Audacity setup instructions for a format conversion tool.

 

 

I'm no expert on sound recording at all - but this all sounds rather "hocus pocus."

[SWIM]

I find it very telling that after nearly 100 years of recording technology, the only people who are finding EVP's are people who are not educated in the recording arts, are using the cheapest gear avaible, and when they talk about their findings, use language that betrays their ignorance in the technology they are using.

 

I'm a broadcast engineer with 16 years under my belt and the development of award-winning hardware to my credit. I agree that not everyone out there knows what they're doing and many times make something out of nothing, but I can tell you from personal experience and research that there is something to the EVP phenomenon.

 

 

 

Why not post some of the EVPs you shared in chat? They were pretty interesting.

[Dave]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away......

 

Note the code words. Translation; "this stuff is real and you just won't admit to it." Christians use the same style when they say Atheists just "deny" god.

[SWIM]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away......

 

Note the code words. Translation; "this stuff is real and you just won't admit to it." Christians use the same style when they say Atheists just "deny" god.

 

 

You really need to hear some really good ones before you dismiss it. I personally would *need* to record my own, of a high quality, to have "personal" confidence that it was real. I have been considering an RV road trip to do just that. Still in the "maybe I'll do it" stage though, have not really decided.

 

For extrodinary data like this, I think being an eye witness to the "purity" of the experiment is a must. For mCAT who has taped these, she has her proof, but alas, since this is soooo controversial, I think each person would need to take part in it hands on, to ensure no monkey business (or genuine error, things overlooked) took place.

 

Extrodinary claims have always required extrodinary evidence and this is no different.

[Casey]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away......

 

Note the code words. Translation; "this stuff is real and you just won't admit to it." Christians use the same style when they say Atheists just "deny" god.

 

Not quite. The experiences related were real enough to those who experienced them. I believe, for what it's worth, that inexplicable things sometimes occur, especially in historical locations like the Tower.

Casey

[Dave]

Perhaps the skeptics would care to explain away......

 

Note the code words. Translation; "this stuff is real and you just won't admit to it." Christians use the same style when they say Atheists just "deny" god.

 

Not quite. The experiences related were real enough to those who experienced them. I believe, for what it's worth, that inexplicable things sometimes occur, especially in historical locations like the Tower.

Casey

I never said they did not believe their experiences were real. What I was trying to say is that, is simple terms, the use of "explain away" shows that the person using the term has a tightly closed mind and any attempt to give a rational response will just be shrugged off as "explaining away." They are code words saying that anything following will not be accepted. Is that not how you actually used the phrase?

[Casey]

Well, what is your rational response to these stories?

Casey

[RedPillAddict]

We as Ex-Christians have, in our own ways, disproved Christianity.

Ok...good job.

That doesn't make us geniuses or all-knowing beings.

 

Christianity is Bullshit...fine...most here know that.

But as far as things relating to this thread's subject, we know jack shit.

 

I hate blind faith, but I also hate arrogant people that think they know everything.

I love science...but it doesn't have the answers to absolutely everything.

 

We talk so much around here about being "free-thinkers" but when it comes to things like this we aren't at all.

We simply type in a link to some scientist that has "debunked" something and go about our way.

 

Do I believe in ghosts? I don't know. Because I've never experienced one.

But, i'm not going to say they don't exist because of some theories or a few experiments, not when there are billions of cases over the subject that state the contrary.

 

If you join every single branch of science together, we still know next to nothing about our "Universe".

Really think about it for a minute. We still have absolutely no idea whatsoever why we even exist...or why anything exists for that matter.

We only try to explain things through what we have learned in our extremely short time here.

 

Do ghosts exist? I don't know...and neither do you. We simply have opinions on the subject. Evidence may prove us all wrong 50 years down the line.