THE QUESTION

[Checkmate]

I think that most of the people on this site are much closer to the conclusions I got from studying the Bible than what I find in most churches....

 

Careful, Amanda! Next thing you know you'll be a "damnable apostate" like the rest of us!

[Abiyoyo]

I've asked this question so many times, and still, after many, many years of enquiry, have yet to garner an answer that doesn't take the form of witless defensism or mindless stock-philosophy. So, I ask once more, in the hope of granering a legitimate, RATIONAL and considered reply:

 

Why am I required to defend my non-adherence to Christianity any more than I am my non-adherence to the religious beliefs of the Ancient Greeks, or Mesopotamians, or Maians, or Egyptians? Geographically speaking, the cultural beliefs of my homeland (Britain) have been all but eradicated by Christian invaders, who went out of their way to not only slaughter proponents of the "Old Ways", but have also besmirched them to such a degree in their recordings thereof, that it is almost impossible from a modern perspective to seperate fact from propoganda. Why am I therefore obliged in any way to conform to an ideology directly responsible for the decimation of my ancestral culture, and the murder of my ancestors themselves?

 

In other words, what I am asking is what makes Christianity or indeed any biblical faith any more legitimate than the million million other belief systems I am aware to have existed in the history of the human race? In particular, I am looking for answers from considered, and above all ARTICULATE Christians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I dont know. What makes an person not believe in a God at all, with the millions of other religions that they have seen. Thats the better question. I could answer a simple, untheological, unscientific answer to mine. I feel like I have a relationship to my God, and I feel that by faith that is taught through my Book; I have come to worship my God.

 

There are many attributes and illustartions that I could give to describe more fully my relationship with the God I serve and worship. I could also give my persoanl details of the spiritual interactions that I have come to with my God. But I Im sure that some of these other religions claim to have had the same experiences.

 

I choose this faith. I have briefly looked over other faiths in curiousity and information purposes. I will say that I have heard repeated comments and thoughts about my ever so popular God, and all the claimed contradictions and variances in His Book.

 

I choose to still serve and worship my God, even still. My Book tells me that I am more blessed to believe and not see, than those who believe and see. My Book also tells me that there are alot of false teachings out there. My Book tells me about the rebellions and the persecution and destructions of many of His people that lived in different areas because that area didnt believe in there God and sought evil in their hearts.

 

My Book has a Messiah that came and was claimed to be the Son of God, to be the last sacrifice for the atonement of all mankinds sin. Freeing us from guilt and persacution from our inner souls. Our Messiah died and rose again, according to my Book, letting us see that there is no bound on death and there is life etenally after death. My Book tells me that there is a Spirit, sent by God, that will guide us and teach us His Holy ways and His will.

 

I sure the other religions mentioned have similar of other types of teachings guided in the general direction. I choose to serve this God, because He sought me before I knew Him. I can never deny that.

[Christopher Carrion]

Christopher, I don't know what 'parent ideology' you are referring. If you are comparing me with the 'religous right'... well, I get more criticism from them than I do from this site! I know that!

 

Still, I believe that I adhere to the teachings of Jesus, as I perceive them to be. My standard does not come by the KJV... although I do use it as a resource to go where that manuscript came. I don't agree totally with the KJV transcribers though. There was a team, and I don't think they translated it with all components in harmony, yet they made it easier for us to do so... with much effort. So what exactly are you referring...

 

I think that most of the people on this site are much closer to the conclusions I got from studying the Bible than what I find in most churches.... I don't pick and choose... and some have pointed out errors in my thinking... yet the overwhelming benefits have outweighed my lack of ability to congruently digest their presentations. I'm sure once I do so, a remarkable transformation will take place in my understandings... and that is a wonderful thing. I certainly don't find that in the churches I've attended!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The "parent ideology" is that which is derived from strict adherence to all of the bible's many perceptual and behavioural tenets, something which, considering the beliefs you stated earlier concerning the salvation of every being on Earth regardless of prior belief, attitude or action, I cannot reconcile with the intensely personal spirituality you have constructed with indirect reference to some, not all, but some of the bible's claims. I am not attempting to undermine your own belief system; if anything from what I have heard thus far it seems much more protean, tolerant and temperate than the more general forms of Christianity which I have thus far experienced.

 

But like I said before, I'm not here to debate the niceties of one's preconceptions concerning belief; I would like a rational and reasoned answer to the question stated, which thus far I have not had.

[Christopher Carrion]

I dont know. What makes an person not believe in a God at all, with the millions of other religions that they have seen. Thats the better question. I could answer a simple, untheological, unscientific answer to mine. I feel like I have a relationship to my God, and I feel that by faith that is taught through my Book; I have come to worship my God.

 

There are many attributes and illustartions that I could give to describe more fully my relationship with the God I serve and worship. I could also give my persoanl details of the spiritual interactions that I have come to with my God. But I Im sure that some of these other religions claim to have had the same experiences.

 

I choose this faith. I have briefly looked over other faiths in curiousity and information purposes. I will say that I have heard repeated comments and thoughts about my ever so popular God, and all the claimed contradictions and variances in His Book.

 

I choose to still serve and worship my God, even still. My Book tells me that I am more blessed to believe and not see, than those who believe and see. My Book also tells me that there are alot of false teachings out there. My Book tells me about the rebellions and the persecution and destructions of many of His people that lived in different areas because that area didnt believe in there God and sought evil in their hearts.

 

My Book has a Messiah that came and was claimed to be the Son of God, to be the last sacrifice for the atonement of all mankinds sin. Freeing us from guilt and persacution from our inner souls. Our Messiah died and rose again, according to my Book, letting us see that there is no bound on death and there is life etenally after death. My Book tells me that there is a Spirit, sent by God, that will guide us and teach us His Holy ways and His will.

 

I sure the other religions mentioned have similar of other types of teachings guided in the general direction. I choose to serve this God, because He sought me before I knew Him. I can never deny that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You still haven't answered my question. I don't care why you personally CHOOSE (the key word here, I think) to worship this particular God; what I want to know is why, in context with the thousands of others, and the thousands of alternative faiths and spiritual belief systems that exist and have existed throughout the countless thousands of years of human history this one is fundamentally more legitimate. Especially when one considers the historical origins of said "God" (the bible-god that first appears in Genesis is a culmination of various deities from ancient Mesopotamian culture; a culture, ironically, most Christians would decry as pagan and therefore worthy of contempt).

 

As for God "seeking you before you sought him," I'd like to see your evidence for that claim. It functions on the basis that the Christian "God" has some sort of autonomy as a concept from the scriptures that record and constitute it. This is an easier claim to make in the modern West than in many other cultures, as historically speaking the concept has entered into the collective consciousness thanks to centuries of Christian theocracy. We are made aware of the concept even if we are not specifically taught about it from a very young age, therefore it is easier to assume that "God" has some kind of external existence from his religion's core scripture. What I would ask you is this; how do you account for those many cultures that existed before the bible god was even conceived, who had their own gods, beliefs and spiritual preconceptions, yet make no mention of the mighty Yahweh, despite your assertion that he would've been "seeking" them from the outset? Furthermore, how do you account for those cultures which still exist with no knowledge or concept of the Christian God? If it is such a fundamental force, why are they not aware of it as you seem to be?

[♦ ficino ♦]

I dont know. What makes an person not believe in a God at all, with the millions of other religions that they have seen. Thats the better question. I could answer a simple, untheological, unscientific answer to mine. I feel like I have a relationship to my God, and I feel that by faith that is taught through my Book; I have come to worship my God.

Nice job doing exactly what Christopher asked you not to do, YoYo.

 

There are many attributes and illustartions that I could give to describe more fully my relationship with the God I serve and worship. I could also give my persoanl details of the spiritual interactions that I have come to with my God. But I Im sure that some of these other religions claim to have had the same experiences.

 

I choose this faith.  I have briefly looked over... I'll say...

 

I choose...  My Book tells me... My Book also tells me...  My Book tells me...

 

My Book...  my Book... My Book...

 

I sure...  I choose... I can never deny that.

 

I wouldn't deny your experience is important to you, YoYo.

[kevin]

You still haven't answered my question. I don't care why you personally CHOOSE (the key word here, I think) to worship this particular God; what I want to know is why, in context with the thousands of others, and the thousands of alternative faiths and spiritual belief systems that exist and have existed throughout the countless thousands of years of human history this one is fundamentally more legitimate. Especially when one considers the historical origins of said "God" (the bible-god that first appears in Genesis is a culmination of various deities from ancient Mesopotamian culture; a culture, ironically, most Christians would decry as pagan and therefore worthy of contempt).

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Christopher:

I'll give you an honest answer, since it's easy for me to go back into that mode of christian thinking. Choosing my faith was based on authority. I watched others around me whom I loved and respected, tell me about their faith. They had peace, and I wanted some of it. If something can offer you happiness, and you believe it can, then you will chose it. No matter how silly it seems, or what rituals are involved to attain it. However! After choosing it, you are stuck with it when it's not all it appears. You are stuck with it because those around you still appear to be getting their joy and peace, but for some reason you aren't.

(Sorry got to go to work..!)

 

Kevin:

[Skankboy]

If something can offer you happiness, and you believe it can, then you will chose it. No matter how silly it seems, or what rituals are involved to attain it.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself Kevin. Nice to have you back...

 

[Amanda]

I would like a rational and reasoned answer to the question stated, which thus far I have not had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Christopher, we did get off topic a bit, we're just having too much fun... but you've reeled me back into focus! It seems to me your question is, "In other words, what I am asking is what makes Christianity or indeed any biblical faith any more legitimate than the million million other belief systems I am aware to have existed in the history of the human race?"

 

IMHO, I think that Jesus reconciles ALL the major religions together! It is an embracing of each and every belief to some degree. As I study other religions, it helps me understand the teachings of Jesus more! Perhaps Jesus was finding the 'unifying' theory of it ALL?

[dogmatically_challenged]

IMHO, I think that Jesus reconciles ALL the major religions together! It is an embracing of each and every belief to some degree. As I study other religions, it helps me understand the teachings of Jesus more! Perhaps Jesus was finding the 'unifying' theory of it ALL?

I still don't get it.

 

Jesus was unoriginal in everything he did and said.

 

Also he claimed to be the only way to god and that all others were sinners who did not except his authority on higher power. He had no respect for others perceptions of higher power. Jesus was an egomaniac.

 

You should study the basics of logic and test your own "methods' in finding "hiden truth" in the scriptures. And I think you should quote scripture more often instead of relying on mystical heretics that you are so fond of. Hehe!

[Amanda]

Jesus was unoriginal in everything he did and said.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

DC, that is my point... he put together the pieces of the puzzle! The only concept I haven't read some where else is grace and the conscience... ... do you know of these some where else before Jesus?

 

It doesn't matter anyway. DC, you're doing just fine without the 'book'! I'm not recommending or pushing it to you, you're on a wonderful path already... . I'm just curious as to some insights you might have on the subject. Thanks.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

DC, that is my point... he put together the pieces of the puzzle! The only concept I haven't read some where else is grace and the conscience... ... do you know of these some where else before Jesus?

 

It doesn't matter anyway. DC, you're doing just fine without the 'book'! I'm not recommending or pushing it to you, you're on a wonderful path already... .  I'm just curious as to some insights you might have on the subject. Thanks.

 

 

Buddhism, perhaps? Hinduism? Native American beliefs in the spirit and self? It's egotistical to say Christianity had everything "good" when the culture that embraced it and brought it to the Americas was bogged down in hatred and disgust of anything that wasn't understandable to them.

[qadeshet]

This is a rhetorical question, right?

[Amanda]

Buddhism, perhaps?  Hinduism?  Native American beliefs in the spirit and self?      It's egotistical to say Christianity had everything "good" when the culture that embraced it and brought it to the Americas was bogged down in hatred and disgust of anything that wasn't understandable to them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sokudo Ningyou, my personal studies of the NT taught me to embrace Buddhism, Hinduism, and Native American beliefs! They're wonderful! If you notice, my God is that ALL things are parts of God. Could you tell me where these religions suggested the concept of grace or the conscience (not an alliance to rules for the sake of integrity or a belief system)?

 

History is one of my worst subjects, but I was under the impression that the culture that brought Christianity to America did so in order that everyone might have the freedom to believe how they wanted! That's one of the main reasons for many back then to have come here, no?

[Mythra]

DC, that is my point... he put together the pieces of the puzzle! The only concept I haven't read some where else is grace and the conscience... ... do you know of these some where else before Jesus?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's incorrect to state that the concept of a personal conscience is original in christianism. It permeates Greek thought and philosophies (and many others) prior to christianity.

 

Grace I'll give ya. That appears to be genuinely original in christianity. (as far as I know) But when you really look at it, christianity only gives "grace" lip service. If you gotta DO something to get it, or follow a laundry list of rules to keep it, then it really isn't grace.

 

Even if that DO something is to believe. Some people (including me) have gone beyond the ability to believe. It's no longer an option.

 

Thank god.

[Amanda]

The whole grace point is moot because you still have to ask forgiveness, from a deity.  Aren't most religions like that?  Turn from your sins, etc., etc.?  I fail to see the whole grace issue as being something that makes Christianity and it's beliefs better than that of unbelievers and those from other religions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It seems to me that all these other beliefs are incorporated into the Bible! Further, I think there is a call for unity of all religions, hence... we've been given the ministry of reconciliation. My belief is that the call of Christ is to be an inclusive society, NOT exclusive.

 

You don't have to ask for forgiveness for God's sake! IMO, that is for the individual, forgiveness is only for the person doing it, as it doesn't help anyone else. It isn't about grace making Christianity better!!! I don't think Christianity is better than any other religion, I think Christianity embraces all other religions. It appears to me that one of Jesus' fundamental suggestions on which to build one's nature is to be humble, meaning that no one is better or worse than another... we are ALL equal! BTW, IMO, grace is a free gift, more so than the air one breathes... no need to do ANYTHING.

[Mythra]

My belief is that the call of Christ is to be an inclusive society, NOT exclusive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, Amanda. Bullshit.

 

No man comes to the Father but by me.

 

It's Jesus or zip, according to the wholly babble.

[Amanda]

It's incorrect to state that the concept of a personal conscience is original in christianism.  It permeates Greek thought and philosophies (and many others)  prior to christianity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra, I wasn't stating it... just saying it seemed to be so, in regards to the research I've done. That's why I was asking for any additional info. I know your research is far more encompassing than my research in many, many areas!

 

Could you tell me when the idea of a 'conscience' came into being, as far as you know? The conscience is "different" than an alliance to integrity for the sake of respect, or an alliance to a belief system. It is more of a coperception, a higher actualized part speaking to us to guide us into decisions simply for the sake of having inner peace, nothing else. If you know, I'd appreciate any info you could give me.

[Mythra]

I don't think anyone could say when the idea came into being, since lots of this stuff fades into pre-history. What I can say for certain, is that it permeates Plato's writings, even if the term "conscience" isn't used.

 

From Plato's Republic aka "The City"

 

"A moral person is happy, whereas an immoral person is unhappy"

"Immorality never gives more happiness than immorality" (Rep 354a)

 

"Let's first try to see what Righteousness is in the cities; and then we can examine it in the individuals too, seeing the reflection of the larger entity in the features of the smaller entity" (Rep 369a)

 

"The true philosopher is a genuine Lover of wisdom and he is born to aspire to the Pure Being without being attached to the multiplicity of all the external things that are assumed to be real. He moves on with his life ever intense and steady, until he is united with the Being Itself, with the part of his soul, which is akin to It. And when he has been united with It, intellect and truth are born; he earns the real knowledge and lives a true life, ever free from the pains of birth"

 

Of course, these are just a few examples.

 

This stuff sounds kind of christian. Plato lived from 427 - 347 BCE

[Amanda]

Grace, would be allowing people to be saved even if you don't believe in god and/or jesus.  NT says grace but yet requires at the minimum "belief" in the unbelievable OR ELSE eternal hellfire and of course those wonderful punishments outlined in Revelations for the end times....  that is not grace, to me anyway.  I'll give you grace "IF"...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not familiar with where it says that you can have grace IF.... ? IMHO, grace is just the awareness that EVERYONE is doing the best they know how, in the situation they're in, with the coping skills available to them at that time. If they would of known better, they would of 'done' that! Grace is understanding that we can't be angry or condemn someone for not doing better than their best!!! That's what we are all doing! (Of course EVERYONE must be accountable and responsible for their decisions.) Grace exists if you believe it or not... if you ask for it or not... no matter what you do... that 'condemnation pardoning' concept still exists.

 

Also, I DON'T believe there is wonderful punishment in Revelations. If you read Revelations 1:1, it says something like...

 

...This book is about the revealing of Jesus Christ, written in signs and symbols to my brother John...

 

So, if it is about Jesus Christ, it has to be about revealing love and mercy. I did an intensive Bible Study of the Seven Seals a long time ago... at least forty hours on most of that one chapter. That is all wonderful things, when one takes the time to discern the symbolism!!! I'm sure much of the rest of Revelations is the same.

 

Example: Parts where it says that a quarter of all the people will be distroyed, has been popularly interpreted to mean where there are four of us... one will be gone. IMHO, my research shows that a quarter of EACH person will be gone... that quarter that believes in an untruth, causing a disrespectful characteristic... that part in ALL of us will be gone. All of us will endure to enjoy a place of peace and joy without anyone having any more, or any less... IMO.

[Mythra]

Let's compare christianity to ice cream.

 

Thankful and I are familiar with vanilla. We are familiar with chocolate. We even know a little bit about strawberry.

 

But Amanda, you are pistacchio. We don't get pistacchio. We can't argue against pistacchio.

 

You're a good egg, Amanda. But you ain't no christian. You are some kind of a new-aged - gnostic amalgamation.

 

Even your concept of grace is whacked.

[Amanda]

Sorry, Amanda.  Bullshit.

 

No man comes to the Father but by me.

 

It's Jesus or zip, according to the wholly babble.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OOOOOHHHHH BOY... the army is coming, and I'm here to defend myself, by myself! I suppose that's the nature of the sight, and the price to pay to be in excellent company.

 

I really like you guys A LOT... yet, y'all do put the pressure on for immediate, simple formed answers. That's not so easy to do.... since it took many years of research to come to my conclusions. Here we go....

 

"No man comes to the Father but by me"... I have two theories that are included here... but I'll start with the main concept for the purpose now...

 

That's my concern over the conscience, as I think the Spirit of Jesus is the hidden man of the heart... Truth (Father) comes by way of the conscience, not anything else. If one learns to rely on their conscience, we will all eventually end in the same place... no matter which path one takes... it doesn't matter.

 

That's my belief.. I can see you all now... Yet that's the reason I don't care if you believe me, I don't care that you have chosen another path, I'm glad that its not 'my' responsibility to convert you... ALL I get to do is ENJOY you ALL, just the way you are!

 

Even if you all are , , or in response to this.

[Mythra]

Amanda: don't feel like you are under attack. We're all just a bunch of goofs here looking for truth. It should never be personal.

 

Even if I give ya one of these it's just in fun.

 

I'll acknowledge that some of the teachings attributed to the god-man Jesus were good teachings. Just not much there that was original.

 

And, nothing worth making a religion over.

[Amanda]

LOL, Amanda, I knew as I posted above that that was going to be your answer. 

 

There is a problem here though Amanda.... people had a conscience way before Christ.  So if they had a conscience before him, then there wasn't a need for him to come down and die.  You're saying people have Jesus even though they don't accept him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I'm asking... where is there literature, a symbol, something that refers to the conscience 'as we know it today'? Even in the KJV, there is no reference to the conscience till the NT. Why didn't SOMEONE in 4000 years make a reference to it? I would just like to be able to examine the dynamics revealed in a model/discription representing the 'conscience' that was presented as it existed BEFORE Jesus.

 

Like I said... I don't care if y'all believe me... I like you all anyway! I will say that I'm open to your ideas... and I have refined my thinking very much from insights given here. I'm not too old to learn...

[Amanda]

What?????  Bible translation means nothing Amanda in the case of "conscience" Maybe the "word" conscience wasn't translated in the KJV but it still has the same meaning.

 

NIV Genesis 205 Did he not say to me, 'She is my sister,' and didn't she also say, 'He is my brother'? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."

 

KJV 5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

NIV Genesis 20    6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her.

 

KJV 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

NIV Bible 1 Samuel 24:5Afterward, David was conscience-stricken for having cut off a corner of his robe.

 

KJV 5And it came to pass afterward, that David's heart smote him, because he had cut off Saul's skirt.

NIV [B]JOB 27:[/b]6 I will maintain my righteousness and never let go of it;

      my conscience will not reproach me as long as I live.

 

KJV 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart ; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Conscience is simply a word that can be said in many different ways.. "My spirit is troubling me"  "My heart hurts" " I'm bothered by what I've done" etc. etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I mean Thankful... I've already researched those accounts in the Bible... and they are about an alliance to a perception of integrity, about respect.... mostly in regards to a presentation of one's self in a 'good' perspective. It is NOT about a coperception as defined in the NT. That's why Jesus said that the sacrifices of the OT must be done every year, as they were not good for the clearing of the conscience.

 

I am curious if there are other documentations of the conscience as it exists today, in a time before Christ. It doesn't have to be a spiritual document... ANY document put in a form that has resources that allows me to examine it as it is written in its original form.

[Amethyst]

Have you done a google search on conscience and philosophy? I bet you'll find something.