Why would something good hide in darkness?

[SOIL]

For the title and subtitle of this thread, I used a couple of abbreviated quotes from a talk by Peter Kreeft (where he talks about book by C.S. Lewis) which I mentioned in this post in the Citic's Corner discussion area.

 

(I need to go prepare and eat some breakfast now, I hope to return later).

 

-Dennis

[♦ nivek ♦]

Dennis,

 

I do not grok the parameters of this discussion opener..

 

Someone come to take my kid and abuse him? He'll be met with thirty Ballots issued by a Ballistics Party, use, reload, until method of protection for said child is acheived.

 

Vetos abound in the haciendaFatman's House Protection locker...

 

kL

[nightflight]

Hey Soil, how about the abuse of teaching kids that there is a place of eternal torment? To me that is just as bad as any other abuse. Xianity IS abuse.

[SOIL]

...

I do not grok the parameters of this discussion opener.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nivek,

I don't remember having heard the word 'grok' used before.

 

When I tried to look it up at the trusty on-line Webster's dictionary site, they ended up getting me to do a "free trial" thing for their unabridged version.

 

 

Pronunciation: gräk

 

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): grokked; grokked; grok·king; groks

 

Etymology: coined in the science fiction novel Stranger in a Strange Land (1961) by Robert A. Heinlein died 1988 American author

 

: to understand especially profoundly and intuitively : establish deep compassionate rapport with <finally they come to grok each other in their fullness -- Bob Singer>

 

 

Citation format for this entry:

 

"grok." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (10 Jul. 2005).

(I added the bold emphasis)

 

Nivek, do you read minds? Actually, I considered using as a title for this thread, something like this:

 

Title: Are you able to understand profound things better than I?

 

Sub-Title: Please help me understand some of the points Peter Kreeft says C.S. Lewis was making!

 

But alas, (like often) I was frustrated this board doesn't allow long enough titles and subtitles to suit my desires.

 

I'm hoping after some more dedicated think time, I will be better able to grok with Peter and Clives.

 

(Any and all help anyone can offer me, would be much appreciated!)

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Hey Soil, how about the abuse of teaching kids that there is a place of eternal torment?  To me that is just as bad as any other abuse.  Xianity IS abuse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nightflight,

 

Please let me know if you have listened to that MP3 - I'll probably spend more time responding to those who I know have taken the time to download it and listen to it.

 

Here is the link: Til We Have Faces

 

It's about time for my Sunday afternoon nap just now though.

 

-Dennis

[Amethyst]

I don't believe that anything or anyone allowing torture of children IS good. It's yet another way the Bible twists hate into love and vice versa.

 

I don't remember having heard the word 'grok' used before

 

I thought it was something like grep, but that's a Linux keyword if I'm not mistaken.

[SOIL]

...

I thought it was something like grep, but that's a Linux keyword if I'm not mistaken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True,

 

I have never used Linux, but I do have a lot of admiration for the little program: "Grep". (I think "Regular Expression Parser" may be what 3 of the 4 letters stand for?)

 

It provides sophisticated capabilities allowing a person to search for given strings of characters which are embedded within a document or many documents.

 

You can look for characters (letters) based on such things as their proximity to other characters (and a whole host of other fancy stuff).

 

A long time ago, back before the days of "Windows" I think - when 'DOS' ruled the PC roost, I downloaded some "look alike" Grep little program (called FP "Find Pattern" I think) with a side-kick (CP "Change Pattern") that would allow you to change the text which you located with Grep - to some other string.

 

Oops, Sorry about getting so off topic!

 

-Dennis

 

P.S.

 

(I hope I didn't interupt anyone who is currently listening to that talk!)

[Amethyst]

Yes, I remember DOS. I learned it when I was about 10 because Windows 3.1 hadn't come out yet.

 

Back to your regularly scheduled debate...

[SOIL]

I don't know if there have been any "takers" who have actually downloaded the MP3 and listened to it.

 

I just thought I would mention though - if there are any who were interested in the thread with discussion about the idea of humans being able to speak with God - face to face.

 

There is some content in the audio talk relating to that subject.

 

If I understand correctly, one point, is that people may not speak face to face with God until/unless we first 'have a face' (which is one of the most important things we need to realize).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Shameless (but maybe helpful) Plug:

 

<set advertisement mode = on>

 

By the way, if anyone might ever decide to actually purchase and read another book which seems to point toward the Christianity side of the faith fence (Oh Heaven forbid ... or should I say ... no I won't) ...

 

I personally have decided to start purchasing Christian oriented material from Byron at Hearts and Minds books, rather than from some place like Amazon.com (though I do still sometimes read 'inside the book' excerpts and some reviews from that site). I guess I am beginning to view Amazon.com sort of like I do Wal-Mart - I would rather support businesses opened and operated mainly by single families.

 

I especially like to be able to correspond (at least via email) with the real person who sells me a book - and I have been very happy to be able to do that with Byron.

 

So, if any of you (like me, for instance) decide to purchase a copy of "Till we have faces" by C.S. Lewis - or any of Peter Kreeft's books (I would imagine) - we could (as an alternative to Amazon.com ) simply contact Byron, by starting from this page

 

</set advertisement mode = off>

 

I certainly don't share in any profits (small though I suspect they must be) Byron and his family earn when they sell books or audio stuff - I just happen to like the guy - and I enjoy reading his reviews - and occasionally discussing books with him via email.

 

 

-Dennis

[Kay]

I don't know if there have been any "takers" who have actually downloaded the MP3 and listened to it.

 

If you are keen on people familiarizing themselves with the contents of the audio, why don't you type it up as a transcript? More accessible, doesn't require additional downloading of programs, and my download limit's been guzzled up for the month already.

 

Cheers.

[SOIL]

If you are keen on people familiarizing themselves with the contents of the audio, why don't you type it up as a transcript? More accessible, doesn't require additional downloading of programs, and my download limit's been guzzled up for the month already.

 

Cheers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool idea Kay!

 

Actually if I were to type the whole thing (approx. an hour's worth of talking, I think) it would be a mighty long post.

 

Though I suppose I might be able to attach a text file to a post.

 

However, some of the content in those audio talks have already been placed in written form on the other half of that site - I will see what I can find that is already typed up - and also I might be able to just type in a few of the "highlight quotes" - for discussion purposes.

 

It may be a couple of days, but I will try to get something in text available for those willing to read it. I understand how sometimes big downloads can be inconvenient - I use a dial-up service myself most of the time - since I live way out in the country. Even though there is no technical limit on the amount I can download - the time required can certainly become a hassle and it can sort of clog up the performance of my machine, if I want to do anything else on-line during the time the big file is downloading.

 

(Usually I do these types of MP3 downloads while I am eating lunch, or dinner - or just before I leave the machine at night).

 

Thanks for putting that bug in my ear!

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

The more I listen and read various content from that site, it is interesting how much I am reminded of themes recently discussed in various threads in this discussion area.

 

As I was just now looking for some written content similar to the spoken content in the MP3 I mentioned, I came cross this written material : Perfect Fear Casts Out All "Luv" - (I think I remember seeing something relating to this somewhere on this site recently - though with different conclusions as you might imagine).

 

I'll keep looking for something more "on topic" though.

 

(For those Atheists among us - you might want to check out some of the stuff Peter Kreeft has written or said (search for 'Arguments for God's Existence' on either page) - though that specific subject is not mainly what I was hoping to discuss in this particular thread.

 

Another 'for instance', where an audio talk contains many references to things recently discussed in various threads here is available in the MP3 file linked to on the Time and Eternity page.

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

Here is another "teaser" :

 

Is There Sex in Heaven?

 

Actually I haven't even read this yet.

 

But I don't hesitate to post a link to it - since I have listened to several things he has said about the subject of Sex and gender related things.

 

I don't always agree with what he says but he certainly always holds my attention when he addresses anything relating to sex.

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

If I understand correctly, one point, is that people may not speak face to face with God until/unless we first 'have a face' (which is one of the most important things we need to realize).

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And here I was, thinkin' that thing I rest my glasses on every morning and put make-up on every evening was a face! Silly me.

[Kay]

However, some of the content in those audio talks have already been placed in written form on the other half of that site - I will see what I can find that is already typed up - and also I might be able to just type in a few of the "highlight quotes" - for discussion purposes.

 

The only problem being we cannot appreciate the context in which these quotes have been said, hence unable to comment on the commentary as a whole.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I am amused at the man's "Featured Writings" and his argument from history about civilizations falling because they didn't follow the moral of God's Word. Because for that logic to work, the Aztec civilization, which flourished for centuries during the time European Christians were still stuck ass-end in the morass of disease and stupidity, was destroyed finally by, uh, what now? Lack of Christian morals? Not praying to Jesusman, taking communion, or taking a day off?

 

Oh, wait. Now I remember: Christian explorers who pretended to be one of their gods, who then cheerfully slaughtered the inhabitants of Technoctitlan, enslaved many others, and went to war with the surrounding tribes. Forced them to convert or be killed or enslaved. Forced them to find them gold and other goodies, because greed is always a good moral code. So instead of a thriving culture which did admittedly have blood sacrifice -- either of criminals, prisoners, or willing participants -- that survived for centuries just fine, we now have a crowded city full of the hungry, poor, overwhelmed masses who are the bastard children of the Spaniards and the Aztecs they raped, all of whom are almost 100% Roman Catholic. Hot damn. Hallelujah.

[SOIL]

  And here I was, thinkin' that thing I rest my glasses on every morning and put make-up on every evening was a face!  Silly me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cerise,

 

All I will take the time to say at this point is - please listen to the talk, and then if you are still thinking the same ... say so again, (that is - if you haven't listented to it yet - otherwise - let me know).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

I am amused at the man's "Featured Writings" and his argument from history about civilizations falling because they didn't follow the moral of God's Word.    Because for that logic to work, the Aztec civilization, which flourished for centuries during the time European Christians were still stuck ass-end in the morass of disease and stupidity, was destroyed finally by, uh, what now?  Lack of Christian morals?  Not praying to Jesusman, taking communion, or taking a day off?

 

Oh, wait. Now I remember: Christian explorers who pretended to be one of their gods, who then cheerfully slaughtered the inhabitants of Technoctitlan, enslaved many others, and went to war with the surrounding tribes. Forced them to convert or be killed or enslaved. Forced them to find them gold and other goodies, because greed is always a good moral code. So instead of a thriving culture which did admittedly have blood sacrifice -- either of criminals, prisoners, or willing participants -- that survived for centuries just fine, we now have a crowded city full of the hungry, poor, overwhelmed masses who are the bastard children of the Spaniards and the Aztecs they raped, all of whom are almost 100% Roman Catholic. Hot damn. Hallelujah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sokudo Ningyou,

 

Yes I can certainly understand where you are coming from (in both paragraphs) - I remember in one of the talks (I forget which just now) Peter was responding to the point of view you have summarized so well. I am woefully ignorant of the history of that part of the world myself, so I couldn't be a very good judge of how he was responding to the indignant questioners. I remember there was one guy who was basically sort of defending the "beauty" of a ceremony where the "priests" would remove the hearts of the hundreds (or thousands?) of young men who were sacrificed to the "gods" - Kreeft moved on to another questioner pretty quickly and abruptly at that point, if I remember correctly.

 

I didn't get the impression that he was necessarily trying to defend the horrendous things Cortez did - but then again, he wasn't quite a harsh when speaking about Cortez as I would think to be appropriate (based on the little I have learned about that time in history).

 

-Dennis

[SOIL]

The only problem being we cannot appreciate the context in which these quotes have been said, hence unable to comment on the commentary as a whole.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kay,

 

Yep. I totally agree.

 

That's why I prefer folks to download and hear it all.

 

I think you will not regret the inconvenience of the download - even if you really don't agree with what is being said.

 

Of course, if I am wrong - you can certainly tell everyone - via a post to that effect here in this thread!

 

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Obviously for Christians there is one god, but you can't expect pagans to know that...

 

Thanks for that wonderful bit of patronization Mr. Speaker. Now onto "why can't we speak to gods face to face". And the answer is...

 

Ah yes...bullshit bullshit bullshit.

 

The old YOU CAN'T SEE GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE FULL OF SIN AND ARE JUST RUNNING AWAY FROM HIM YOU SILLY SILLY CHILD. NOW BOW DOWN AND REPENT!!!111

(by the way, aren't pagans wonderful little savages since we can use all their symbolism to make our own points about Jeeeezus?)

 

Apparently things need to be complicated and mysterious otherwise they can't be true. Like perhaps the best posts use the longest words. Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious, eh?

 

I call this bullshit Dennis.

 

Knowing a god should not have to be an obstacle course leading to a spike lined pit in order to be true.

 

But wait, can we possibly insult pagans and pagan religions more in this little lecture?

 

I think we can!

"they are only pagan gods..."

 

Can we throw in some absurdity and contradictions in terms?

"justice that allows children to be tortured"

 

Yeah, I don't call torturing children "justice". If you do, I suggest you lock yourself in a little rubber room immediately and save us all the trouble of doing it for you.

 

Yeah, that certainly is one problem, mr.speaker. I don't know if I can bear to listen to anymore of these "answers" though.

 

Sorry Dennis, I tried. But I no longer suffer fools. Especially not ones taking up my precious time through audio recording.

[Cerise]

Here's God's answer to why people suffer:

Hush my child, you couldn't possibly understand.

 

Well, that certainly fucking stops my nightmares, doesn't it? No more will I wake up screaming and brushing off invisible hands. No longer will my breath come short and my heart thud against my chest in panic every time I hear footsteps behind me. No longer will my tears soak the ground, for God has spoken and he has said "run along now, kiddo, this is grown-up stuff and you wouldn't understand. I hurt you for your own good. Lay down on this bed and don't ask why."

 

At the end of the book of Job God gives a crappy answer.

 

At the end of this particular lecture, Mr. speaker gives a crappy answer.

 

[SOIL]

We each make our own decisions about who we are willing to listen to.

 

For now, I choose to use my time listening what Peter has to say (until I can feel better that I really understand the depths of what he is saying) - I think I have mow listened to the regulars here long enough.

 

I have been happy to talk with you Cerise, and of you others who I have exchanged posts with.

 

At this point - I need another break for a while - away from here.

 

Thank you all for your patience and courtesy toward me - for this approx. year and a half while I have been a frequent (uninvited) guest in "your house"!

 

-Dennis

[Cerise]

Run away Dennis. You know you have nothing for me. And neither does Peter.

[SOIL]

Cerise, we were both posting at the same time - so I didn't read your most recent post prior to posing my most recent.

 

I sincerely hope that my posts have not caused you to suffer more (when compared to what would have been the case if you had never heard from any "SOIL" or Dennis).

 

I hope I am correct when I examine my heart and think I find only a sincere desire for healing toward you (even if the only way to help achieve that, would require me to reject the foundation I have tried to build my entire life upon).

 

I don't honestly think my rejecting Christianity would help to heal your ongoing pain however.

 

(And I realize neither you, nor anyone else has requested that of me.)

 

-Dennis